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Em-inLeam
7-7-09, 00:28
Quality article on what this position offers.

http://www.insidefutbol.com/2009/07/06/alonso-carrick-and-pirlo-lead-deep-playmaker-revolution/

Red-And-Proud
7-7-09, 00:53
Intresting read, so it's saying quite a few attacking midfielder are capable of playing Alonso's role, or are they a dying breed?

YouKnowMyIdeas
7-7-09, 02:03
Intresting read, so it's saying quite a few attacking midfielder are capable of playing Alonso's role, or are they a dying breed?

It's saying that they are a rare and special breed but more attacking creative players could be installed in a deeper position, therefore they'll get more time on the ball due to being better protected than they would be if they were further forward. There's very few players that can perform this role to the standard of Pirlo and Alonso in Europe. Which is why we we'd find it hard to directly replace Alonso if he were to leave and it would be easier to change our system.

In the next few years we'll see alot more players groomed to play in this position.

ccook
7-7-09, 02:08
doesnt nasri attempt to play there for arsenal?

YouKnowMyIdeas
7-7-09, 02:19
doesnt nasri attempt to play there for arsenal?

Yeah he and Denilson try to play that role, but Arsenal were after Alonso because they needed someone who was actually quite good in that position.

KimJong-illmatic
7-7-09, 03:32
It's saying that they are a rare and special breed but more attacking creative players could be installed in a deeper position, therefore they'll get more time on the ball due to being better protected than they would be if they were further forward. There's very few players that can perform this role to the standard of Pirlo and Alonso in Europe. Which is why we we'd find it hard to directly replace Alonso if he were to leave and it would be easier to change our system.

In the next few years we'll see alot more players groomed to play in this position.

I think it's ironic that the two Deep-Lying Playmakers who are openly considered the prototypes are Pirlo and Alonso, while in my opinion the closest two players who could reach that level as a DLP are their compatriots De Rossi and (to some extent) Fabregas.

wslfc
7-7-09, 04:12
that was a great read.. and is so true..

Kev-is-Red
7-7-09, 04:33
Yeah he and Denilson try to play that role, but Arsenal were after Alonso because they needed someone who was actually quite good in that position.

Repped:D


EDIT: I will rep you when possible.

Kev-is-Red
7-7-09, 04:37
I agree with most parts. Except Pirlo is nowhere near a world-class player.

Jodzo
7-7-09, 05:01
I agree with most parts. Except Pirlo is nowhere near a world-class player.

nowhere near? when Italy won the World Cup and when AC Milan reached all those CL Finals, Pirlo was undoubtedly world-class player for few years....

if Pirlo is nowhere near who is?

Kev-is-Red
7-7-09, 06:16
nowhere near? when Italy won the World Cup and when AC Milan reached all those CL Finals, Pirlo was undoubtedly world-class player for few years....

if Pirlo is nowhere near who is?

He was great. Today he is nowhere near a world class player. For the last three years he has had some brilliant games, yet many average games.

Carramac
7-7-09, 06:46
that was a great read.. and is so true..

So you agree that CARRICK + Pirlo are the best 2 deep lying playmakers :rolleyes:

Wowbagger
7-7-09, 07:43
An interesting point which i thought after reading that( btw carrick is not a great playmaker) is this:

Is Rafa trying to do that exact same thing with Lucas? I mean trying to convert him into a deep lying play maker from his attacking days at gremio.

Fowi
7-7-09, 08:10
An interesting point which i thought after reading that( btw carrick is not a great playmaker) is this:

Is Rafa trying to do that exact same thing with Lucas? I mean trying to convert him into a deep lying play maker from his attacking days at gremio.

No. Rafa realised Lucas is not very good and told him to bulk up so he can be used as a water carrier instead.

Wowbagger
7-7-09, 08:39
No. Rafa realised Lucas is not very good and told him to bulk up so he can be used as a water carrier instead.

You and your conspiracy theories. :crying

Seanosdelgardo
7-7-09, 09:13
Yeah he and Denilson try to play that role, but Arsenal were after Alonso because they needed someone who was actually quite good in that position.

Nasri is not a deep lying playmaker, and arsenal dont play him as such. He floats around from centre mid to behind a striker. His game is all about pass and move.

He's far from deep lying.

Kev-is-Red
7-7-09, 09:18
Nasri is not a deep lying playmaker, and arsenal dont play him as such. He floats around from centre mid to behind a striker. His game is all about pass and move.

He's far from deep lying.

Actually Wenger rather unsuccessfully played him there in the second-half of last season.

Em-inLeam
7-7-09, 09:23
Nasri is not a deep lying playmaker, and arsenal dont play him as such. He floats around from centre mid to behind a striker. His game is all about pass and move.

He's far from deep lying.

True. These deep-lying playmakers are very scarce :(

Seanosdelgardo
7-7-09, 09:28
Actually Wenger rather unsuccessfully played him there in the second-half of last season.

Nope. Wenger played him in the centre a couple of times due to necessity with injuries and suspensions but other than that Wenger played him everywhere across the front line last season. He knows Nasri's strengths and playing him in that role isnt one of them.

Just checked this with a mate who's an ardent gooner. :)

Kev-is-Red
7-7-09, 09:33
Nope. Wenger played him in the centre a couple of times due to necessity with injuries and suspensions but other than that Wenger played him everywhere across the front line last season. He knows Nasri's strengths and playing him in that role isnt one of them.

Just checked this with a mate who's an ardent gooner. :)

Doesn't explain this:p

http://www.teamtalk.com/football/story/0,16368,2483_5283154,00.html

RickJC
7-7-09, 09:34
Is Rafa trying to do that exact same thing with Lucas? I mean trying to convert him into a deep lying play maker from his attacking days at gremio.

IMO Lucas doesn't enjoy doing 40+ yard passes like Alonso, he enjoys doing the short pass and move stuff getting involved in the attack.

Seanosdelgardo
7-7-09, 09:44
Doesn't explain this:p

http://www.teamtalk.com/football/story/0,16368,2483_5283154,00.html

Then i stand corrected, and will take this up venomously with my mate :p

Seriosuly tho i think he got a lot more licence to roam than that article makes out, hence why i dont think he's the deep lying playmaker your referring too when we compare him with Alonso and Pirlo.

Last season Nasri played out wide on both flanks and central both deep and forward, so I'm not convinced on that article.

It was written just after the 4-4 which was the tail end of the season.....so how many times did he actually play there?

Any more than 8 games and I'll give you this one. ;)

Kev-is-Red
7-7-09, 09:45
Then i stand corrected, and will take this up venomously with my mate :p

Seriosuly tho i think he got a lot more licence to roam than that article makes out, hence why i dont think he's the deep lying playmaker your referring too when we compare him with Alonso and Pirlo.

Last season Nasri played out wide on both flanks and central both deep and forward, so I'm not convinced on that article.

It was written just after the 4-4 which was the tail end of the season.....so how many times did he actually play there?

Any more than 8 games and I'll give you this one. ;)

They do have quotes though.

Kev-is-Red
7-7-09, 09:48
http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/nasri-i-see-myself-in-defensive-midfield

Sounds like he wants to be a defensive midfielder, can't give you anything more concrete than that.

Not sure if he is talking about being a "ballwinner" or a "playmaker" though, however if he sees himself as a ballwinner is he deluded young chap.

Seanosdelgardo
7-7-09, 09:59
http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/nasri-i-see-myself-in-defensive-midfield

Sounds like he wants to be a defensive midfielder, can't give you anything more concrete than that.

Not sure if he is talking about being a "ballwinner" or a "playmaker" though, however if he sees himself as a ballwinner is he deluded young chap.

I think its a case of him wanting to be Alonso. He should stop being deluded and concentrate on what he does best, fast pass and move attacking in the final third. He's not a ballwinner, and never will be. I see him as a playmaker, but certainly not deep lying one. He should stop taking the fairy juice and realise he's an attacking midfielder and be done with it.

Kev-is-Red
7-7-09, 10:00
I think its a case of him wanting to be Alonso. He should stop being deluded and concentrate on what he does best, fast pass and move attacking in the final third. He's not a ballwinner, and never will be. I see him as a playmaker, but certainly not deep lying one. He should stop taking the fairy juice and realise he's an attacking midfielder and be done with it.

Yes he is an attacking midfielder. Has great skills, shooting and passing ability. Could be a top attacking midfielder one day.

Mapeke
7-7-09, 10:10
I honestly believe that if we lose Alonso then we should go for a completely different type of midfielder. We're not going to be able to find a deep lying playmaker that has Xabi's range of passing. I think we'd be better off buying a more dynamic midfielder that gets closer to the opposition's penalty area.


Yes he is an attacking midfielder. Has great skills, shooting and passing ability. Could be a top attacking midfielder one day.
Nasri actually played the holding role in a few games towards the end of last season I believe and he didn't do that bad a job if I remember correctly.

Seanosdelgardo
7-7-09, 10:14
I honestly believe that if we lose Alonso then we should go for a completely different type of midfielder. We're not going to be able to find a deep lying playmaker that has Xabi's range of passing. I think we'd be better off buying a more dynamic midfielder that gets closer to the opposition's penalty area.


Nasri actually played the holding role in a few games towards the end of last season I believe and he didn't do that bad a job if I remember correctly.

He played there for a few games, but (according to my mate who I now doubt :p ) was due to necessity more than anything else.

Wenger was probably trying to get as many attackers on the field as possible.;)

Target-Man
7-7-09, 12:00
First of all, it was an interesting article, and I enjoyed reading it so rep for finding it.

In some ways, however, I have to disagree that the deep playmaker is new concept in football. It seems more to me like it was a concept that fell out of fashion in the 90s as more and more teams both on the continent and in England were moving towards a specific style of 4-4-2, and it is returning with the move away from the 4-4-2 style.

Let me recall some classic examples from the 80s, Ronald Koeman and Jan Mølby. Both were brought up under Cruyff at Ajax, and were taught to hit long range passes from deep positions with pinpoint accuracy. There's an anecdote that Cruyff would keep Koeman and Mølby after regular practice and get them to practice hitting the corner flag from the center of the pitch. The loser would buy a round for the others. Whether it's true or not, the idea was that both of these defensive players (Mølby was originally cast as either a "libero" or a defensive midfielder) should be able to hit the target accurately from 50-60 yards. In many ways, these two players were good examples of deep playmakers 20 years before the current fashion set in.

They also came at a cost. Neither settled completely into defensive roles, their lack of pace sometimes costing them. The risk of selecting such a player in central defense was shown at times at Barcelona when they were put under pressure, and Koeman struggled - often having to commit cynical, professional fouls to avoid being exposed for pace. Mølby's lack of pace was also exposed when he was played in the libero role for Denmark, and it led to the notion that he should only be played as a midfielder - paired with a midfield destroyer.

In the 90s, more teams moved towards a high pressure, fast paced 4-4-2 style, even on the continent. Even teams like Juventus were starting to pick players more for their physical abilities than for their skill on the ball. The transition game became one of winning the ball high on the pitch rather than one of starting counters from deep in defense through deadly accurate outlet passing. Generally higher fitness levels was expected of all players on the pitch, and the less mobile playmakers were no longer fashionable. In a straight, zonal marking 4-4-2 it was hard to make accommodations for playmakers.

With a move towards a 4-2-3-1 type formation, the deep playmaker again became relevant. Current Denmark coach, Morten Olsen, started using it with his double-winning Ajax (1998) team before taking over Denmark in 2000. With Denmark, he immediately started using Thomas Gravesen as a deep playmaker quarter backing the transition game and distributing the ball in a system not unlike the current one used at LFC. (Yes, Gravesen actually had very good long range passing skills when on form.)

The use of a defensive midfielder as a deep playmaker has thus been around for a decade - and the deep playmaker himself has been around for much longer. What is happening now is that more teams are starting to realize the benefits of such a system, as the traditional 4-4-2 used by so many teams in Britain and also making its mark on continental football has become too rigid to deal with a decent quality, well-prepared defense. Also, more teams today seem to realize the importance of outlet passing for the transition game, not to mention the increased commitment to possession football among English teams.

EskilJehn
7-7-09, 12:16
Carrick plays some excellent lobbed through balls and through balls in general - certainly capable of playing the deep lying playmaker role, but I wouldn't tout him as the prime example.

Pirlo was one of the greatest playmakers of his generation, but a new star is now slowly emerging in Italy, his name is Luca Cigarini - He plays for Napoli as of July 3rd 2009.

Daniele De Rossi's role is not the deep lying playmaker - if anything he's the enforcer and Alberto Aquilani the playmaker. Although De Rossi is such a good all round player you could even play him as an attacking midfielder with great success - although you would be missing out on his tough tackling, something which is imperative in the enforcer role.

YouKnowMyIdeas
7-7-09, 12:35
First of all, it was an interesting article, and I enjoyed reading it so rep for finding it.

In some ways, however, I have to disagree that the deep playmaker is new concept in football. It seems more to me like it was a concept that fell out of fashion in the 90s as more and more teams both on the continent and in England were moving towards a specific style of 4-4-2, and it is returning with the move away from the 4-4-2 style.

Let me recall some classic examples from the 80s, Ronald Koeman and Jan Mølby. Both were brought up under Cruyff at Ajax, and were taught to hit long range passes from deep positions with pinpoint accuracy. There's an anecdote that Cruyff would keep Koeman and Mølby after regular practice and get them to practice hitting the corner flag from the center of the pitch. The loser would buy a round for the others. Whether it's true or not, the idea was that both of these defensive players (Mølby was originally cast as either a "libero" or a defensive midfielder) should be able to hit the target accurately from 50-60 yards. In many ways, these two players were good examples of deep playmakers 20 years before the current fashion set in.

They also came at a cost. Neither settled completely into defensive roles, their lack of pace sometimes costing them. The risk of selecting such a player in central defense was shown at times at Barcelona when they were put under pressure, and Koeman struggled - often having to commit cynical, professional fouls to avoid being exposed for pace. Mølby's lack of pace was also exposed when he was played in the libero role for Denmark, and it led to the notion that he should only be played as a midfielder - paired with a midfield destroyer.

In the 90s, more teams moved towards a high pressure, fast paced 4-4-2 style, even on the continent. Even teams like Juventus were starting to pick players more for their physical abilities than for their skill on the ball. The transition game became one of winning the ball high on the pitch rather than one of starting counters from deep in defense through deadly accurate outlet passing. Generally higher fitness levels was expected of all players on the pitch, and the less mobile playmakers were no longer fashionable. In a straight, zonal marking 4-4-2 it was hard to make accommodations for playmakers.

With a move towards a 4-2-3-1 type formation, the deep playmaker again became relevant. Current Denmark coach, Morten Olsen, started using it with his double-winning Ajax (1998) team before taking over Denmark in 2000. With Denmark, he immediately started using Thomas Gravesen as a deep playmaker quarter backing the transition game and distributing the ball in a system not unlike the current one used at LFC. (Yes, Gravesen actually had very good long range passing skills when on form.)

The use of a defensive midfielder as a deep playmaker has thus been around for a decade - and the deep playmaker himself has been around for much longer. What is happening now is that more teams are starting to realize the benefits of such a system, as the traditional 4-4-2 used by so many teams in Britain and also making its mark on continental football has become too rigid to deal with a decent quality, well-prepared defense. Also, more teams today seem to realize the importance of outlet passing for the transition game, not to mention the increased commitment to possession football among English teams.

Good post and I agree the position isn't a new found phenemenon, it's just been started to be used more regularly with the emergence of the 4-2-3-1 formation. And more attacking and creative players are starting to be deployed there rather than more defence-minded players.

In this formation, the 'Makelele' type role doesn't exist anymore because an Alonso type player is preferred whilst Mascherano will push further forward allowing Xabi more time and space.

Em-inLeam
7-7-09, 22:45
First of all, it was an interesting article, and I enjoyed reading it so rep for finding it.

In some ways, however, I have to disagree that the deep playmaker is new concept in football. It seems more to me like it was a concept that fell out of fashion in the 90s as more and more teams both on the continent and in England were moving towards a specific style of 4-4-2, and it is returning with the move away from the 4-4-2 style.

Let me recall some classic examples from the 80s, Ronald Koeman and Jan Mølby. Both were brought up under Cruyff at Ajax, and were taught to hit long range passes from deep positions with pinpoint accuracy. There's an anecdote that Cruyff would keep Koeman and Mølby after regular practice and get them to practice hitting the corner flag from the center of the pitch. The loser would buy a round for the others. Whether it's true or not, the idea was that both of these defensive players (Mølby was originally cast as either a "libero" or a defensive midfielder) should be able to hit the target accurately from 50-60 yards. In many ways, these two players were good examples of deep playmakers 20 years before the current fashion set in.

They also came at a cost. Neither settled completely into defensive roles, their lack of pace sometimes costing them. The risk of selecting such a player in central defense was shown at times at Barcelona when they were put under pressure, and Koeman struggled - often having to commit cynical, professional fouls to avoid being exposed for pace. Mølby's lack of pace was also exposed when he was played in the libero role for Denmark, and it led to the notion that he should only be played as a midfielder - paired with a midfield destroyer.

In the 90s, more teams moved towards a high pressure, fast paced 4-4-2 style, even on the continent. Even teams like Juventus were starting to pick players more for their physical abilities than for their skill on the ball. The transition game became one of winning the ball high on the pitch rather than one of starting counters from deep in defense through deadly accurate outlet passing. Generally higher fitness levels was expected of all players on the pitch, and the less mobile playmakers were no longer fashionable. In a straight, zonal marking 4-4-2 it was hard to make accommodations for playmakers.

With a move towards a 4-2-3-1 type formation, the deep playmaker again became relevant. Current Denmark coach, Morten Olsen, started using it with his double-winning Ajax (1998) team before taking over Denmark in 2000. With Denmark, he immediately started using Thomas Gravesen as a deep playmaker quarter backing the transition game and distributing the ball in a system not unlike the current one used at LFC. (Yes, Gravesen actually had very good long range passing skills when on form.)

The use of a defensive midfielder as a deep playmaker has thus been around for a decade - and the deep playmaker himself has been around for much longer. What is happening now is that more teams are starting to realize the benefits of such a system, as the traditional 4-4-2 used by so many teams in Britain and also making its mark on continental football has become too rigid to deal with a decent quality, well-prepared defense. Also, more teams today seem to realize the importance of outlet passing for the transition game, not to mention the increased commitment to possession football among English teams.

Wow, excellent post. You've put a lot of effort into that so have a rep.

Carramac
8-7-09, 06:50
First of all, it was an interesting article, and I enjoyed reading it so rep for finding it.

In some ways, however, I have to disagree that the deep playmaker is new concept in football. It seems more to me like it was a concept that fell out of fashion in the 90s as more and more teams both on the continent and in England were moving towards a specific style of 4-4-2, and it is returning with the move away from the 4-4-2 style.

Let me recall some classic examples from the 80s, Ronald Koeman and Jan Mølby. Both were brought up under Cruyff at Ajax, and were taught to hit long range passes from deep positions with pinpoint accuracy. There's an anecdote that Cruyff would keep Koeman and Mølby after regular practice and get them to practice hitting the corner flag from the center of the pitch. The loser would buy a round for the others. Whether it's true or not, the idea was that both of these defensive players (Mølby was originally cast as either a "libero" or a defensive midfielder) should be able to hit the target accurately from 50-60 yards. In many ways, these two players were good examples of deep playmakers 20 years before the current fashion set in.

They also came at a cost. Neither settled completely into defensive roles, their lack of pace sometimes costing them. The risk of selecting such a player in central defense was shown at times at Barcelona when they were put under pressure, and Koeman struggled - often having to commit cynical, professional fouls to avoid being exposed for pace. Mølby's lack of pace was also exposed when he was played in the libero role for Denmark, and it led to the notion that he should only be played as a midfielder - paired with a midfield destroyer.

In the 90s, more teams moved towards a high pressure, fast paced 4-4-2 style, even on the continent. Even teams like Juventus were starting to pick players more for their physical abilities than for their skill on the ball. The transition game became one of winning the ball high on the pitch rather than one of starting counters from deep in defense through deadly accurate outlet passing. Generally higher fitness levels was expected of all players on the pitch, and the less mobile playmakers were no longer fashionable. In a straight, zonal marking 4-4-2 it was hard to make accommodations for playmakers.

With a move towards a 4-2-3-1 type formation, the deep playmaker again became relevant. Current Denmark coach, Morten Olsen, started using it with his double-winning Ajax (1998) team before taking over Denmark in 2000. With Denmark, he immediately started using Thomas Gravesen as a deep playmaker quarter backing the transition game and distributing the ball in a system not unlike the current one used at LFC. (Yes, Gravesen actually had very good long range passing skills when on form.)

The use of a defensive midfielder as a deep playmaker has thus been around for a decade - and the deep playmaker himself has been around for much longer. What is happening now is that more teams are starting to realize the benefits of such a system, as the traditional 4-4-2 used by so many teams in Britain and also making its mark on continental football has become too rigid to deal with a decent quality, well-prepared defense. Also, more teams today seem to realize the importance of outlet passing for the transition game, not to mention the increased commitment to possession football among English teams.

good post ... greeny on its way

Kev-is-Red
8-7-09, 07:23
In this formation, the 'Makelele' type role doesn't exist anymore because an Alonso type player is preferred whilst Mascherano will push further forward allowing Xabi more time and space.


What are you on about?


Mikel and Diarra play the "Makalele role" for two of Makalele's former clubs...

Em-inLeam
24-8-12, 09:26
Nuri Sahin :)

Em-inLeam
24-8-12, 09:29
Great read

http://www.insidefutbol.com/2009/07/06/alonso-carrick-and-pirlo-lead-deep-playmaker-revolution/

We finally have a deep-lying playmaker now to replace Alonso - fingers crossed!

ElFirnimino
24-8-12, 09:32
Nuri Sahin :)

I don't think he's gonna play there. If we go 4-3-3 with Allen and Lucas as the two right infront of the defence then he gets pushed up to play AM, which is where I think he'll play. Which then pushes Gerrard to the right, where he can interchange with Suarez and Borini giving the team an incredible balance. We shouldn't break apart the Lucas/Allen partnership in the middle, firstly because it could grown to become one of the most dynamic in the league and secondly we could very well have Sahin for one season only and it wouldn't be worth it to move Allen onto the bench if that's the case. Secondly, Sahin can score goals, he creates them primarily but he can easily play as an AM.

Em-inLeam
24-8-12, 10:05
I don't think he's gonna play there. If we go 4-3-3 with Allen and Lucas as the two right infront of the defence then he gets pushed up to play AM, which is where I think he'll play. Which then pushes Gerrard to the right, where he can interchange with Suarez and Borini giving the team an incredible balance. We shouldn't break apart the Lucas/Allen partnership in the middle, firstly because it could grown to become one of the most dynamic in the league and secondly we could very well have Sahin for one season only and it wouldn't be worth it to move Allen onto the bench if that's the case. Secondly, Sahin can score goals, he creates them primarily but he can easily play as an AM.

I don't agree, I think Sahin plays better when he comes deep to collect the ball off the defender and looks to start an attack off; he'll play in a similar role to Allen so we would rotate between Lucas - Allen - Sahin depending on who we are up against.

ElFirnimino
24-8-12, 10:11
I don't agree, I think Sahin plays better when he comes deep to collect the ball off the defender and looks to start an attack off; he'll play in a similar role to Allen so we would rotate between Lucas - Allen - Sahin depending on who we are up against.

I disagree, none of Barca's middle 3 of Iniesta, Xavi and Busquets are that prolific and it seems to work for them. Sahin can play effectively as either a CM or Am and having these three players in the middle will ensure we win the midfield battle in almost all of our games. Gerrard has lost that turn up of pace that made him so deadly playing off Torres and he's not suited to playing CM in a short passing style system, so clearly he's the odd one out.

Em-inLeam
24-8-12, 10:20
I disagree, none of Barca's middle 3 of Iniesta, Xavi and Iniesta are that prolific and it seems to work for them. Sahin can play effectively as either a CM or Am and having these three players in the middle will ensure we win the midfield battle in almost all of our games. Gerrard has lost that turn up of pace that made him so deadly playing off Torres and he's not suited to playing CM in a short passing style system, so clearly he's the odd one out.

Gerrard is still a class player as an AM so he'd be hard to displace; either way it adds more competition to our side; which can only be good.

OriginalJebus
24-8-12, 13:01
I agree with most parts. Except Pirlo is nowhere near a world-class player.

lol

Toredo
24-8-12, 13:12
Pirlo is peerless.

Liverdinner
24-8-12, 14:12
We don't need a deep lying playmaker imo.


But Sahin is more than that. He can go forward with the ball.

TAFFYFROG
24-8-12, 15:41
If you consider Rodgers wants the midfield / team to chase and harry the opposition further up the pitch when we are not in possession, rather than to fall back and absorb the pressure, it may make far more sense to have Sahin in the deepest lying role and free Lucas and Allen to harry and chase, with Sahin then available to pass too to start attacks when we win the ball back. the formation would therefore be more like:

Sahin

Lucas Allen

That said, with the quality of the players now available we could be very flexible