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Redhead
19-12-09, 16:17
They've started at half time and will no doubt continue late into the night about the immediate removal of Rafa. He's lost the plot, dressing room, his keys etc. Not even Rex Makin could defend him after that game.

Every single Liverpool fan will be fuming about that game and Rafa is the obvious easy candidate to blame for the failings this season. I've no doubt no one will be looking at missed chances, like Agger's free header which would have settled the team down, but more Rafa's choice to play Dossena instead of Benayoun (who incidently would still be in the treatment room if it wasn't for some horse massaging him or something like that).

Anyway back to my initial thoughts, what if the majority it now appears get their wish and Rafa walks away / sacked now or at the end of the season? In my view the club could implode and it could take us over five years to rectify it.

Firstly I believe the spine of our team would be out of the door within two transfer windows. Pepe, Agger, Masch and Torres gone. If we are poor now how would we be without them? By the way I don't think they would leave out of loyalty to Rafa, I just think they are all at a stage in their careers where they could genuinely walk into any team in Europe and be first choice in their retrospective positions. Would they want to stay and start a whole re-building process again with no guarantees of how it could pan out? I don't think they would to be honest. When Rafa came to the club in 2004, our two keys players at the time had a similar decision to make, one walked away and the other was so so close to doing the same 12 months later.
As for Gerrard and Carra now it is slightly different. I wouldn't begrudge Gerrard leaving either as he has given his all, however I don't think he'd leave at this stage in his career.

So the spine of the team could realistically leave, with no guarantee of that money being reinvested into the playing squad (remember the 30mil Alonso sale money, where did that go?)

Secondly we look at the issue of manager recruitment. Lets be honest who in their right mind would want to come to this club in its current state? Sell before you buy, shovels in the ground with 60 days (or was it years I can't remember now), owners who can't sit next to each other, the list goes on. If we were to draw up a shortlist of suitable candidates to replace Rafa, what would it look like: Hiddinck? The Portugese Fella? Capello? Hodgson? Could you really really see any of those characters wanting to come here to work in the current conditions? Really? And please don't come back with the 'but we are Liverpool.. . ' line because unfortunately that is irrelevant now as much as it pains me to say it.

If you are that set on wanting to see Rafa go are of a patient mentallity and are prepared to wait 5 years for the club to evolve again then I have no argument with you at all.

To conclude what do I think? I have backed Rafa wholeheartidly during his time as Liverpool manager. I am angry at him now for some reason, but angry in a way like I'd be at my brother or friend or parent if they let me down. It is a different kind of anger than against some random person who has just wound you up. Angry in a way that you feel they've let you down but know they will do everything they can to make it up to you. I know I'll get shot down for this but I still think he can pull us out of this mess. I look at the bigger picture of things in relation to this club and just can't help but think it would be a mistake to sack him now for the reasons I have highlighted above. I believe the absolute minimum he should be given is until the end of the season, and probably next season as well. It is quite a scary picture I have painted but as the thread title suggests for all Anti-Rafa people out there, be careful what you wish for . . .

mustgotoDublin
19-12-09, 16:19
Pepe, Agger, Masch and Torres

if that spine walks your talking 120 million pounds to buy new players with

the club is greater than anyone individual

simple as that

TheGhostOfDotTeeVeePast
19-12-09, 16:20
Anyway back to my initial thoughts, what if the majority it now appears get their wish and Rafa walks away / sacked now or at the end of the season? In my view the club could implode and it could take us over five years to rectify it.

Once you lose faith in the manager, five years doesn't seem that long.

KloppBoy
19-12-09, 16:21
Its a bit of an oxymoron for people to be saying that Rafa has lost the dressing room, but then saying that players would follow him out the door. (I'm not implying you're saying that by the way)

I would like to think that Torres/Reina etc would appreciate Liverpool as a club, more the Rafa the manager.

SaltAndPepe
19-12-09, 16:21
i wish for Kenny to be appointed tomorrow

Brinner177
19-12-09, 16:21
Good post fella...

But the 5year plan Rafa has had seems a distant memory now. Some very average players in the squad at the minute. And what i watch in the reserves it don't look to clever.

YNWA

Chris-Ninis
19-12-09, 16:21
5 years you say? Better than the 20 we've already had so I say go for it.

dookar
19-12-09, 16:23
Firstly I believe the spine of our team would be out of the door within two transfer windows. Pepe, Agger, Masch and Torres gone.

There is nothing to sugegst this is at all likely.

Navredman
19-12-09, 16:24
i wish for Kenny to be appointed tomorrow

One step forward and five back ;)

TheGhostOfDotTeeVeePast
19-12-09, 16:24
Any player that is here just for Rafa, i would be happy to see leave.

koprow53
19-12-09, 16:25
A team containing Insua, Lucas, Kuyt, Babel, Ngog, Dossena and relying on a half fit Gerrard and Torres will achieve sweet FA. I can see that why can't the manager.

The end of this club as a major power in appraoching unless serious changes are made. Sadly I can't see changes being made.

Chris-Ninis
19-12-09, 16:25
Any player that is here just for Rafa, i would be happy to see leave.

This

donwell
19-12-09, 16:26
if that spine walks your talking 120 million pounds to buy new players with

the club is greater than anyone individual

simple as that

You cannot guarantee that that money would be spent on new players, after all G&H are wanting to reduce the clubs debts. In my view this would mean them retaining a chunk of any money made from players sales. Do you think we would improve with cheap players because no decent money was available to purchase the quality needed to replace those lost?

SaltAndPepe
19-12-09, 16:27
One step forward and five back ;)

The boost that would give the players. Playing for the greatest player to have donned the red shirt, and playing with the other.

RedGlosTaffy
19-12-09, 16:28
I'm sick of 5 year plans. We have the spine for a 1 year plan, we just need the right man to pick the right players in the right formation and tell them they are world beaters. Quite obviously that man isn't Rafael Benitez.

As for Gerrard, he looks a broken man. Carra wrote in his book about the fnal year of Ged and how the senior players knew it was time. It's a good job he's not writing another chapter.

Thespian
19-12-09, 16:28
if that spine walks your talking 120 million pounds to buy new players with
Just like the 40 odd million Rafa raised from sales this year went straight back into his kitty?

the club is greater than anyone individual

simple as that

That I agree with but we need investment more than we do a new manager.

sabretoothluis
19-12-09, 16:29
Any player that is here just for Rafa, i would be happy to see leave.

And they are ??

Fahid
19-12-09, 16:30
Any player that is here just for Rafa, i would be happy to see leave.

agreed.

mustgotoDublin
19-12-09, 16:31
Just like the 40 odd million Rafa raised from sales this year went straight back into his kitty?


That I agree with but we need investment more than we do a new manager.

frankly I don't trust him to

A) spend the money

B) coach the players

Redhead
19-12-09, 16:31
if that spine walks your talking 120 million pounds to buy new players with

the club is greater than anyone individual

simple as that

Under the current framework how could you be for sure that the money would be re-invested into the team?

Goalrush09
19-12-09, 16:32
Great post and you've echoed my thoughts expertly.

Right now we're all hurting and angry.

Angry at Rafa and angry at the players and angry at fate itself.

But what are the options?

If Rafa leaves I don't know if that will change anything and if there is
another comparable manager that would want the job. I know we all
have our Rafa issues but there's no doubt that he loves this club and is
working hard to turn things around.

At the moment I'm more concerned with the fact that our players don't
seem to have any belief in themselves and are not playing to their full abilities.

Some would say that it's the managers job to motivate them but that only works till they step out on the pitch, after that they have to give their all and I'm not seeing that right now.

A couple of them are but we need all 11 to fight off teams that look much more focused and hungrier than we are right now.

Maybe a change of manager would solve this problem but we can't say that for sure and we're stuck in limbo. All we want is to start playing better and winning some games by playing some decent football.

If Rafa can make that happen then I'm happy for him to stay, I keep wanting to give him another game for this transformation in our play to happen but today was so bad that I'm left shaking my head.

Redhead
19-12-09, 16:33
Any player that is here just for Rafa, i would be happy to see leave.

I never said this. In fact I said the opposite. I don't think they'd go because of their loyality to Rafa, but because of the stage in their career

--Jamie--
19-12-09, 16:33
Any player that is here just for Rafa, i would be happy to see leave.

Absolutely spot on

Thespian
19-12-09, 16:34
frankly I don't trust him to

A) spend the money

B) coach the players

Why not he has got both Silva and Villa interested in playing here and would have bought Dani Alves in 2005 if he had been given an extra million???

Morsy
19-12-09, 16:34
I am Rafa's biggest fan but i'm sorry mate his time is up. This club needs a change. My god we could be 8 points of relegation at the end of today yet you think he should STAY!!!

crobra
19-12-09, 16:34
I'm not anit rafa, but it is time for change. We can wait until the end of the season, but I feel we will not finish in the top 5. He had a vision and it has failed, we are not a player or two away from winning the league.

Alon1
19-12-09, 16:34
They've started at half time and will no doubt continue late into the night about the immediate removal of Rafa. He's lost the plot, dressing room, his keys etc. Not even Rex Makin could defend him after that game.

Every single Liverpool fan will be fuming about that game and Rafa is the obvious easy candidate to blame for the failings this season. I've no doubt no one will be looking at missed chances, like Agger's free header which would have settled the team down, but more Rafa's choice to play Dossena instead of Benayoun (who incidently would still be in the treatment room if it wasn't for some horse massaging him or something like that).

Anyway back to my initial thoughts, what if the majority it now appears get their wish and Rafa walks away / sacked now or at the end of the season? In my view the club could implode and it could take us over five years to rectify it.

Firstly I believe the spine of our team would be out of the door within two transfer windows. Pepe, Agger, Masch and Torres gone. If we are poor now how would we be without them? By the way I don't think they would leave out of loyalty to Rafa, I just think they are all at a stage in their careers where they could genuinely walk into any team in Europe and be first choice in their retrospective positions. Would they want to stay and start a whole re-building process again with no guarantees of how it could pan out? I don't think they would to be honest. When Rafa came to the club in 2004, our two keys players at the time had a similar decision to make, one walked away and the other was so so close to doing the same 12 months later.
As for Gerrard and Carra now it is slightly different. I wouldn't begrudge Gerrard leaving either as he has given his all, however I don't think he'd leave at this stage in his career.

So the spine of the team could realistically leave, with no guarantee of that money being reinvested into the playing squad (remember the 30mil Alonso sale money, where did that go?)

Secondly we look at the issue of manager recruitment. Lets be honest who in their right mind would want to come to this club in its current state? Sell before you buy, shovels in the ground with 60 days (or was it years I can't remember now), owners who can't sit next to each other, the list goes on. If we were to draw up a shortlist of suitable candidates to replace Rafa, what would it look like: Hiddinck? The Portugese Fella? Capello? Hodgson? Could you really really see any of those characters wanting to come here to work in the current conditions? Really? And please don't come back with the 'but we are Liverpool.. . ' line because unfortunately that is irrelevant now as much as it pains me to say it.

If you are that set on wanting to see Rafa go are of a patient mentallity and are prepared to wait 5 years for the club to evolve again then I have no argument with you at all.

To conclude what do I think? I have backed Rafa wholeheartidly during his time as Liverpool manager. I am angry at him now for some reason, but angry in a way like I'd be at my brother or friend or parent if they let me down. It is a different kind of anger than against some random person who has just wound you up. Angry in a way that you feel they've let you down but know they will do everything they can to make it up to you. I know I'll get shot down for this but I still think he can pull us out of this mess. I look at the bigger picture of things in relation to this club and just can't help but think it would be a mistake to sack him now for the reasons I have highlighted above. I believe the absolute minimum he should be given is until the end of the season, and probably next season as well. It is quite a scary picture I have painted but as the thread title suggests for all Anti-Rafa people out there, be careful what you wish for . . .

---------------------------------------------------------------

Rafa is not the only manager out there that can do a job, you are going to have to accept that the time has arrived for Benitez.

Of course we all hope the right decission is being made when appointing the next manager, but we can,t stop taking decissions just cause you are afraid of not taking the right one.

Redhead
19-12-09, 16:34
There is nothing to sugegst this is at all likely.

During our last managerial chance, our best player nearly left and our second best player did go

Chris-Ninis
19-12-09, 16:36
During our last managerial chance, our best player nearly left and our second best player did go

Something tells me that Gerrard is not his biggest fan. I've never seen him look so disinterested.

Redhead
19-12-09, 16:36
[QUOTE=Alon1;2762360]---------------------------------------------------------------

Rafa is not the only manager out there that can do a job, you are going to have to accept that the time has arrived for Benitez.

QUOTE]

Why do I have to accept it? Please elaborate

mustgotoDublin
19-12-09, 16:37
Why not he has got both Silva and Villa interested in playing here and would have bought Dani Alves in 2005 if he had been given an extra million???

im sure they'll all be in such a rush to play europa league football next year

Redhead
19-12-09, 16:40
Something tells me that Gerrard is not his biggest fan. I've never seen him look so disinterested.

The flip side to that coin is in Feb, Mar, April and May of this year I've never seen Gerrard so happy. Who is happy when you are on the worst run of your playing career? Gerrard needs to have a look at himself. I agree with you that their relationship probably isn't based on friendship, however Gerrard had a terrible time this summer and Rafa was unquestionable in his backing and faith in his captain.

Redhead
19-12-09, 16:41
Once you lose faith in the manager, five years doesn't seem that long.

As I said in my initial post, if you are prepared to be patient I have no quarms with that

OurNumberSeven
19-12-09, 16:42
the club is greater than anyone individual simple as that

Well put but just to add, its so much more IMPORTANT than any individual also.
If anyone wants to walk after Rafa does then let them, we only need players that give there sweat, blood, tears and inner passion to play for Liverpool FC.

Alon1
19-12-09, 16:44
[QUOTE=Alon1;2762360]---------------------------------------------------------------

Rafa is not the only manager out there that can do a job, you are going to have to accept that the time has arrived for Benitez.

QUOTE]

Why do I have to accept it? Please elaborate

are you going to stick with him, not matter what happen? a blind man will see we are in serious trouble and going in the wrong direction, this has actually been the case from the pre-season, haven,t seen any significant improvement, and what is worst i can,t see any on the horizon, not with Benitez in the driving seat.

Redhead
19-12-09, 16:45
Well put but just to add, its so much more IMPORTANT than any individual also.
If anyone wants to walk after Rafa does then let them, we only need players that give there sweat, blood, tears and inner passion to play for Liverpool FC.

Sounds like you want 11 Kuyts in the team? You forgot to mention quality

OurNumberSeven
19-12-09, 16:50
Sounds like you want 11 Kuyts in the team? You forgot to mention quality

Thats the only time in the last 3 hours that i have smiled, cheers for that :-)

RedGlosTaffy
19-12-09, 16:52
We've spent the last 20 years not being a sacking club, spent millions and millions and millions on players and where have we got to? We're no further forward than we were in Souness's second season or Ged's final. We need to start demanding more from everyone at the club. We're quick to want the yanks out because they're not doing their job, we're quick to want to see the back of players who don't perform yet we treat our managers like untouchable demi-gods who can do no wrong.

We are certainly unique in the world of football in that regard. Can you imagine Juve, Barca, Real, Milan, Inter, Bayern, Chelsea putting up with it? Arsenal and Utd are the only parallels but their managers are deservedly untouchable. Frankly ours isn't.

Chris-Ninis
19-12-09, 16:55
The flip side to that coin is in Feb, Mar, April and May of this year I've never seen Gerrard so happy. Who is happy when you are on the worst run of your playing career? Gerrard needs to have a look at himself. I agree with you that their relationship probably isn't based on friendship, however Gerrard had a terrible time this summer and Rafa was unquestionable in his backing and faith in his captain.

Possibly, but that's all in the past now unfortunately.

I honestly think our players look beaten before they walk out these days. That's not wholly Rafa's fault, but he isn't exonerated of blame either.

Redhead
19-12-09, 16:59
Possibly, but that's all in the past now unfortunately.

I honestly think our players look beaten before they walk out these days. That's not wholly Rafa's fault, but he isn't exonerated of blame either.

I agree with you here, we should have enough people around the club though to help us snap out of it. Rafa included, but what about Sammy Lee? I thought he was meant to be one of the best motivators in the business?

Redhead
19-12-09, 17:06
Thats the only time in the last 3 hours that i have smiled, cheers for that :-)

:)

Chris-Ninis
19-12-09, 17:07
I agree with you here, we should have enough people around the club though to help us snap out of it. Rafa included, but what about Sammy Lee? I thought he was meant to be one of the best motivators in the business?

If you make someone Assistant Manager to give pep talks, might as well give Carra the job and save on a wage.

TheGhostOfDotTeeVeePast
19-12-09, 17:08
I agree with you here, we should have enough people around the club though to help us snap out of it. Rafa included, but what about Sammy Lee? I thought he was meant to be one of the best motivators in the business?

He is, and always has been, a poor coach.

Gazza74
19-12-09, 17:09
He is, and always has been, a poor coach.

I disagree with that and that's not the view within coaching circles.

Not the ones i know anyway who know of Sammy and what is said.

He's held in very high regard.

Redhead
19-12-09, 17:11
He is, and always has been, a poor coach.

Really? What about his involvement with England amongst other things? I thought he was well respected in the football world

TheGhostOfDotTeeVeePast
19-12-09, 17:11
I disagree with that and that's not the view within coaching circles.

Not the ones i know anyway who know of Sammy and what is said.

He's held in very high regard.

Name me a coach that other coaches have bad mouthed.

Sammy has coached two of the most depressing teams in lfc history, one of the most depressing England teams, and the less said about Bolton the better.

Gazza74
19-12-09, 17:11
Really? What about his involvement with England amongst other things? I thought he was well respected in the football world

He is, very much so.

TheGhostOfDotTeeVeePast
19-12-09, 17:12
Really? What about his involvement with England amongst other things?

Exactly.

Redhead
19-12-09, 17:15
If you make someone Assistant Manager to give pep talks, might as well give Carra the job and save on a wage.

I'm not saying that and you know I'm not. What I am saying is although the buck stops with Rafa, it is not entirely his responsibility to motivate the players. Everyone has a reponsibility to do this. Manager, assistant, coaches and captain as well as the team. What I did think to be the case was one of Lee's strengths as a coach was motivation.

Gazza74
19-12-09, 17:16
Sammy has coached two of the most depressing teams in lfc history, one of the most depressing England teams, and the less said about Bolton the better.

He wasn't manager, he's carrying out the managers instructions and helping him with that.

He was here when Evans had us playing excellent football don't forget.

A coach/Assistant is just that, nothing more, he works with the manager under the managers style and tactics, helping him out.

We saw when Sammy took over at Bolton that he went the total opposite way to Allardyce in football style despite working with Allardyce for a few years.

He tried to get them playing football and playing nothing like they did previously and it didn't quite work.

Like i say, as a coach, carrying out the managers philosophy and instructions, Sammy is excellent and is highly regarded within football and coaching circles, that's why he's been given the jobs he has.

TheGhostOfDotTeeVeePast
19-12-09, 17:20
He wasn't manager, he's carrying out the managers instructions and helping him with that.

He was here when Evans had us playing excellent football don't forget.

A coach/Assistant is just that, nothing more, he works with the manager under the managers style and tactics, helping him out.

We saw when Sammy took over at Bolton that he went the total opposite way to Allardyce in football style despite working with Allardyce for a few years.

He tried to get them playing football and playing nothing like they did previously and it didn't quite work.

Like i say, as a coach, carrying out the managers philosophy and instructions, Sammy is excellent and is highly regarded within football and coaching circles, that's why he's been given the jobs he has.

So how can he be excellent if he's just doing as he's told? :confused:

RedGlosTaffy
19-12-09, 17:22
There is no way any of us should start rounding on Sammy Lee. The buck stops with Benitez end of story. Sammy has seen what makes this club tick over the course of 30 years and knows the ethos of this club. Playing 4 holding midfielders against the bottom side definitely isn't it neither is having 3 full backs on the bench ahead of promising kids (Arsenal).

Gazza74
19-12-09, 17:33
So how can he be excellent if he's just doing as he's told? :confused:

So, no one in any job is excellent at it if they are just carrying out the instructions for that job from those above them???

Come on Higgy, you're smarter than that. You need to differentiate between a manager and Asst manager/Coach and the roles they have and the say they have on tactics, philosophy, team selections etc etc.

In doing the job that is asst manager or coach and working within whatever the managers philosophy is Sammy is excellent and can adapt his coaching style to all the different styles managers have and has done through his career, hence why he is so well respected.

He wasn't responsible for the football under Evans, Houllier, Allardyce or whoever, that was down to the manager themselves, he just helped each of them on the training pitch and elsewhere get the team ready for each match within their philosophy and the football style they have. Plus the other duties that come along with the roles he's had.

You don't get the jobs he's had if you ain't an excellent coach.

elscouse
19-12-09, 17:34
The way I see it, is that we are lost in a labyrinth at the moment. Everyone can hear each other calling out, but the path that would reunite the manager, players and fans just doesn't seem to be there to find.

It is there though.

What is needed now, above any changes, is composure. Off the pitch and on it. Everyone needs to focus on the simple goal of getting this team's confidence back so that it can start playing like we know it can.

IMO stability and unity are the only things that matter at the moment as they are the only things that can offer any guarantees for this season.

And to be realistic, given our owners track record, no ins or outs are going to favour the team or the club as a whole. They don't want to invest, only receive.

To be frank, if we want to see a positive change this season, it will only realistically happen if we get behind Rafa and our current squad 100%. You may not agree, but facts are facts, and neither Gillett or Hicks will be doing anything that doesn't earn them an easy buck.

GILLETT & HICK OUT

Redhead
19-12-09, 17:36
There is no way any of us should start rounding on Sammy Lee. The buck stops with Benitez end of story. Sammy has seen what makes this club tick over the course of 30 years and knows the ethos of this club. Playing 4 holding midfielders against the bottom side definitely isn't it neither is having 3 full backs on the bench ahead of promising kids (Arsenal).

I am not rounding on Lee. As you rightly said he knows the ethos of this club and has the ear of the manager. However I don't understand all of your post unfortunately. What do you mean by 4 holding midfielders and Arsenal?

nash
19-12-09, 20:41
OMG seriously what has happened to our beloved LFC, I am so depressed with it! I could cry!:(

The name of the club and the fans deserve so much more

YNWA

Stan85
19-12-09, 20:50
Any player that is here just for Rafa, i would be happy to see leave.

Agreed.

Anyway I woud like to think that Reina, Torres, Agger, Gerrard, Aquilani and hopefully Masch would stay. I think Masch may leave, but the others I would be confident of them staying.

We are on a very slippery slope at the moment and I think if things don't improve by new year, something should be done otherwise we will have a real mission in front of us if we are to stay in the top four.

nash
19-12-09, 21:00
Pull your head in you clown. If you disagree with him fine but there's no need to carry on like a homeless bloke that's forgotten his meds.

hahahahaha that cheered me up a little bit

Redhead
20-12-09, 01:03
Firstly moderators thank you for removing personal insults made by one poster who knows nothing about me or who I am. It sort of sums up in a way the problems of our club at the moment. People lashing out and finding a soft target. I stand by my beliefs no matter what some people may say. I believed my original post was pretty balanced, although I concluded that I still back the manager. Many people may disagree with me and I'm happy to discuss that no problem. However making personal insults i'm not happy with, any thankfully the people who run this forum agree.

GoatApocalypse
20-12-09, 01:04
Any player that is here just for Rafa, i would be happy to see leave.

Agreed.

Redhead
20-12-09, 01:13
Agreed.

I actually agree with this statement as well, however as I have previously pointed out in this thread, I never stated this at all. My basis for our major players leaving was around crucial points in their own personal careers moving to a more stable environment than what we currently have to offer in the wake of a new manager. Certainly not leaving because of their loyality to Rafa as some have tried to construe it.

ReubenStuddard
20-12-09, 01:19
When I was at School, a kid got excluded for a pretty rubbish reason. We all protested and decided we were going to leave the School and do our A-levels elsewhere. After a couple of days we realised it was silly and pointless, and we stuck around.

Rafa is not a warm and friendly guy. I doubt many players will up sticks in protest. Especially not if the new manager comes in and gets them winning.

Redhead
20-12-09, 01:23
When I was at School, a kid got excluded for a pretty rubbish reason. We all protested and decided we were going to leave the School and do our A-levels elsewhere. After a couple of days we realised it was silly and pointless, and we stuck around.

Rafa is not a warm and friendly guy. I doubt many players will up sticks in protest. Especially not if the new manager comes in and gets them winning.

What has this got to do with this thread. Did you mean to post this in the mark hughes sacked one? At no point have I said players will leave in protest against Rafa being sacked

ReubenStuddard
20-12-09, 01:25
What has this got to do with this thread. Did you mean to post this in the mark hughes sacked one? At no point have I said players will leave in protest against Rafa being sacked

My mistake - I skimread the OP and took in the sentence about the players who would leave, followed by some of the responses. I've now re-read it :)

Chris-Ninis
20-12-09, 01:25
What has this got to do with this thread. Did you mean to post this in the mark hughes sacked one? At no point have I said players will leave in protest against Rafa being sacked

I think you make some good points, but you're also a little sensitive about things too.

Redhead
20-12-09, 01:33
I think you make some good points, but you're also a little sensitive about things too.

Know where you're coming from here but I don't feel I'm being a little sensitive on this one. I just think some people don't understand where I was going with this thread. A point in case being the previous poster who since said he re read the original post to understand where I was coming from

markdvdman
20-12-09, 01:40
Rafa staying will inhibit this club tenfold.

He really cannot cut it.

He has to go.

Can Kenny do it? Unlikely but this dross we play anyone can manage us!

Redhead
20-12-09, 01:49
As you rightly pointed out Mr dvdman, Kenny is an unlikely replacement candidate, so who is? The bigger question as I mentioned previously is who of any quality would want to come here under the current structure? The answer is quite simple that no suitable manager would even consider entertaining taking the Anfield hotseat the way the club is currently being run.

WindyShepherdHenderson
20-12-09, 01:54
As you rightly pointed out Mr dvdman, Kenny is an unlikely replacement candidate, so who is? The bigger question as I mentioned previously is who of any quality would want to come here under the current structure? The answer is quite simple that no suitable manager would even consider entertaining taking the Anfield hotseat the way the club is currently being run.

Rafa gets to spend money. The owners aren't responsible for our current situation, as much as some people want it to be.

The owners don't cause us to put in utterly abject performances against Portsmouth, Blackburn, Fulham et al.

LARed
20-12-09, 01:56
Who cares if those players leave - none of them impressed me by that disgusting display today.

Redhead
20-12-09, 02:00
Rafa gets to spend money. The owners aren't responsible for our current situation, as much as some people want it to be.

The owners don't cause us to put in utterly abject performances against Portsmouth, Blackburn, Fulham et al.

The post you refer to in your comments, I am not asking the question about Rafa as a manager. I am asking what manager in his right mind would consider coming to Anfield to work for two people who can't even sit next to each other, never mind agree on anything? There are currently a handful of managers in the world who we as fans would deem worthy of taking the helm at Anfield where Rafa to leave, however personally I couldn't see any of them touching this club with a barge pole under the current set up.

Redhead
20-12-09, 02:02
Who cares if those players leave - none of them impressed me by that disgusting display today.

So you wouldn't be concerned if Pepe, Torres, Masch or Agger left?

Redorius
20-12-09, 10:14
So you wouldn't be concerned if Pepe, Torres, Masch or Agger left?

Add Gerrard to that list.

Red Centre
20-12-09, 10:48
....Which is why, despite my horror at yesterday's performance, I don't want us to dump Rafa halfway through one crap run of form!

Have to agree with the common view of disbelief at some of his decisions, but when you look at the bigger (very ugly) picture of where our club is at behind the scenes, especially finance-wise, no other (worthy) manager with a brain in his head will touch us right now.

Agree with the thread.....careful what you wish for....how about some blood sweat and **llocks from the players instead (yes, I'm looking at you Stevie G)
and remembering that LFC means more than just a 6 month slump!
YNWA

Dutch82
20-12-09, 12:21
Bring back Houllier

Red-till-death
20-12-09, 12:32
He is, and always has been, a poor coach.

When the going gets tough, ***** flies from all directions and even a person like Sammy Lee has to put up with comments like these......fickle bunch we lot are.....just recently saying what a wonderful appointment he was, crediting him with the team's run last season, some touted him as the real person for team's motivation and now when things are down, we beat him more so that it all looks like as if the fans are never wrong.....pity we do not understand what goes on really in a club and to be honest we are most of the times not right....not even close to being right......

TheGhostOfDotTeeVeePast
20-12-09, 12:56
When the going gets tough, ***** flies from all directions and even a person like Sammy Lee has to put up with comments like these......fickle bunch we lot are.....just recently saying what a wonderful appointment he was, crediting him with the team's run last season, some touted him as the real person for team's motivation and now when things are down, we beat him more so that it all looks like as if the fans are never wrong.....pity we do not understand what goes on really in a club and to be honest we are most of the times not right....not even close to being right......

I expressed reservations the day he joined us.

Red-till-death
20-12-09, 13:02
I expressed reservations the day he joined us.

am sure you did but that does not mean we try to find the rot in every nook and corner without knowing the reality and that too now when everything we see is dire and so sad......all may not be wrong with the club but it is certainly wrong where it matters most and things must be really taken up for inspection at the end of this season, till then, I for one would support whoever is in charge of LFC and by that i mean not only the manager or the staff or the players....everyone it is.....

TheGhostOfDotTeeVeePast
20-12-09, 13:05
am sure you did but that does not mean we try to find the rot in every nook and corner without knowing the reality and that too now when everything we see is dire and so sad......all may not be wrong with the club but it is certainly wrong where it matters most and things must be really taken up for inspection at the end of this season, till then, I for one would support whoever is in charge of LFC and by that i mean not only the manager or the staff or the players....everyone it is.....

I do support them. When i'm in the ground.

When i'm on here, i discuss what i think is working, and what i think isn't.

Redhead
20-12-09, 14:45
I do support them. When i'm in the ground.

When i'm on here, i discuss what i think is working, and what i think isn't.

Well said. Problem is its spilling into the ground now.

Redhead
24-12-09, 00:04
Just a thought but one of the richest clubs in the world could only attract Roberto Mancini as their new manager, but people here think the likes of Hiddinck or the Portugese man would walk into here if Rafa left or was sacked now? If a decent squad and bottomless pit of transfer cash wasn't enough to tempt this quality of manager to leave their current posts and take the helm at eastlands, why would they want to come to Liverpool now? Be careful what you wish for

TheGhostOfDotTeeVeePast
24-12-09, 00:05
Just a thought but one of the richest clubs in the world could only attract Roberto Mancini as their new manager, but people here think the likes of Hiddinck or the Portugese man would walk into here if Rafa left or was sacked now? If a decent squad and bottomless pit of transfer cash wasn't enough to tempt this quality of manager to leave their current posts and take the helm at eastlands, why would they want to come to Liverpool now?

For the reasons i've already stated in this thread.

Redhead
24-12-09, 00:11
Higgy, I accept your stance in this thread that if there is a change you are prepared to be patient enough for evolution to take place, which could take a good while. However a lot of folk on here think a change would bring instant success, which may not well be the case. Just out of interest, if Rafa went last weekend and we replaced him with Mancini, would you be happy with that? Me personally no, but would be interested to gauge opinion on it. As I just posted, if the richest club in the world could only attract him, what kind of manager could we hope to attract in our current climate?

TheGhostOfDotTeeVeePast
24-12-09, 00:14
Higgy, I accept your stance in this thread that if there is a change you are prepared to be patient enough for evolution to take place, which could take a good while. However a lot of folk on here think a change would bring instant success, which may not well be the case. Just out of interest, if Rafa went last weekend and we replaced him with Mancini, would you be happy with that? Me personally no, but would be interested to gauge opinion on it. As I just posted, if the richest club in the world could only attract him, what kind of manager could we hope to attract in our current climate?

Yes, but City need the riches to get them there.

We offer something else. A challenge as great as any in football. A chance to put your name down amongst the very greats.

Redhead
24-12-09, 00:22
Yes, but City need the riches to get them there.

We offer something else. A challenge as great as any in football. A chance to put your name down amongst the very greats.

Up until the last 12 months I would have totally agreed with this, however it is entirely possible the current managers plans and guarantees have been undermined by two owners who can't even bring themselves to be close to each other, so I think any top flight manager would be extremely aware of this and realise it could do them more harm than good, which means we could end up with a second rate yes man. Where would that take us?

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying Rafa is exempt from any blame for the current situation, far from it, I'm just extremely concerned that the current tirade calling for his head haven't weighed up all the options in our current situation? Your thoughts?

TheGhostOfDotTeeVeePast
24-12-09, 00:26
Up until the last 12 months I would have totally agreed with this, however it is entirely possible the current managers plans and guarantees have been undermined by two owners who can't even bring themselves to be close to each other, so I think any top flight manager would be extremely aware of this and realise it could do them more harm than good, which means we could end up with a second rate yes man. Where would that take us?

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying Rafa is exempt from any blame for the current situation, far from it, I'm just extremely concerned that the current tirade calling for his head haven't weighed up all the options in our current situation? Your thoughts?

I disagree with anyone calling for his head. He gets at least to the end of the season for me, and probably more.

I just hate all the doom and gloom surrounding the possibilty that he may leave.

I heard it all, and even thought it myself at times, about Houllier.

We all loved him once. Thought he was the only one.

There will be somebody else after Rafa.

Redhead
24-12-09, 00:41
I disagree with anyone calling for his head. He gets at least to the end of the season for me, and probably more.

I just hate all the doom and gloom surrounding the possibilty that he may leave.

I heard it all, and even thought it myself at times, about Houllier.

We all loved him once. Thought he was the only one.

There will be somebody else after Rafa.

Correct there will be someone after Rafa, however I will never compare his reign to that of Houllier's yet as the last two years under Houllier were a total disgrace. We've had a few bad months here which can still be turned around and until that few bad months becomes two seasons I will never ever compare Rafa with Houllier, and to be honest I will never compare the two anyway

TheGhostOfDotTeeVeePast
24-12-09, 00:46
Correct there will be someone after Rafa, however I will never compare his reign to that of Houllier's yet as the last two years under Houllier were a total disgrace. We've had a few bad months here which can still be turned around and until that few bad months becomes two seasons I will never ever compare Rafa with Houllier, and to be honest I will never compare the two anyway

I'm not comparing the ends of the tenures, i'm comparing the belief that we had in them both at one stage.

Redhead
6-6-10, 12:45
Bumped.

I wrote this in December last year and it appears to have more relevance now as the decision for Rafa to be removed has been made.

Where I was wrong in the initial post is Pepe and I believe Agger are committed to the club. However as each day passes the more I think Gerrard, Masch and Torres will not be here at the start of next season. And with no guarantees that that money from sales will be given to the new manager to reinvest into the squad, the immediate future looks very bleak indeed.

For that reason I think we should look for an up and coming younger manager to start the club up from scratch. It may take a few seasons to restore some pride and get the club challenging again but I think that is the way forward for us now. Forget big name managers, I don't think Daglish is the answer either.

RedBook
6-6-10, 13:00
Bumped.

I wrote this in December last year and it appears to have more relevance now as the decision for Rafa to be removed has been made.

Where I was wrong in the initial post is Pepe and I believe Agger are committed to the club. However as each day passes the more I think Gerrard, Masch and Torres will not be here at the start of next season. And with no guarantees that that money from sales will be given to the new manager to reinvest into the squad, the immediate future looks very bleak indeed.

For that reason I think we should look for an up and coming younger manager to start the club up from scratch. It may take a few seasons to restore some pride and get the club challenging again but I think that is the way forward for us now. Forget big name managers, I don't think Daglish is the answer either.

You started a good thread here and it deserved bumping. I'm wondering what your stance is on the possibility of Hodgson becoming our next manager. From your previous post I assume that your argument against him is that he is to old, is it?

Gazza74
6-6-10, 13:02
And with no guarantees that that money from sales will be given to the new manager to reinvest into the squad, the immediate future looks very bleak indeed.

That could have been just in Rafa's case to force him out due to the ridiculous contract he had.

Just a thought.

TheGhostOfDotTeeVeePast
6-6-10, 13:05
I was awesome in this thread.

Mike90
6-6-10, 13:15
Any player that is here just for Rafa, i would be happy to see leave.

After almost half a year this comment still rings true.

Redhead
6-6-10, 13:44
You started a good thread here and it deserved bumping. I'm wondering what your stance is on the possibility of Hodgson becoming our next manager. From your previous post I assume that your argument against him is that he is to old, is it?

Cheers alan. Hodgson is a really interesting one and, for me, depends on certain factors as to whether I think he'd be a good appointment. What I mean by this is if Gerrard, Masch and Torres stayed and the new manager was given some but not a vast amount (say 10-15 million), plus guaranteed money from any transfers out to go into squad re-investment, then yes I think Hodgson would be a wise move. And I'm pretty sure Hodgson would want those reassurances as well if he was approached.

The problem I have is I cannot see under our current situation those factors happening, thus maybe our immediate future should lie with a younger up and coming manager.

Gazza74
6-6-10, 13:49
Cheers alan. Hodgson is a really interesting one and, for me, depends on certain factors as to whether I think he'd be a good appointment. What I mean by this is if Gerrard, Masch and Torres stayed and the new manager was given some but not a vast amount (say 10-15 million), plus guaranteed money from any transfers out to go into squad re-investment, then yes I think Hodgson would be a wise move. And I'm pretty sure Hodgson would want those reassurances as well if he was approached.

The problem I have is I cannot see under our current situation those factors happening, thus maybe our immediate future should lie with a younger up and coming manager.

I doubt Hodgson, or many managers for that matter, would come if told their is no budget and they can't even have any sale money either...Oh, and we're selling all the best players to.

If we get someone like Hodgson or maybe someone seen as better in the world of football, then their is money to spend and the sale money will be given to them to.

Has there been something said by the club that their won't be any money this summer and definately no sale money or is it just the conspiracy theorists saying it???

Redhead
6-6-10, 13:50
That could have been just in Rafa's case to force him out due to the ridiculous contract he had.

Just a thought.

Take your point here Gazza, however there has been so much shifting of the goalposts by our owners, they are liable to say one thing and change their mind the next hiding their original statements in media spin.

I think our owners are more bothered about how much cash will line their pockets when they do sell than results on the pitch.

Did Rafa have reassurances last summer that any player sales would be reinvested into the squad? I think he would have, only to be told differently at the 11th hour, hence no use of the Alonso money. Surely that cash raised would have been used for back up striker and wide man? Also I think if he'd have known it wasn't going back into the transfer coffers, he wouldn't have purchased Aquilani earlier on in the window. Only my opinion mind

Gazza74
6-6-10, 13:52
I think our owners are more bothered about how much cash will line their pockets when they do sell than results on the pitch

So, why did they sack Rafa??

Surely, how we do on the pitch is a big factor to how much money they can pocket ultimately??

Sneets
6-6-10, 13:54
That could have been just in Rafa's case to force him out due to the ridiculous contract he had.

Just a thought.

Yep! I would bet that there will be money available some from sales and maybe a little more.

Redhead
6-6-10, 13:55
Has there been something said by the club that their won't be any money this summer and definately no sale money or is it just the conspiracy theorists saying it???

Gazza I read something the other day from Purslow. This is not it exactly as I can't recall it word for word but it was something along the lines of 'what we've got and a bit' in relation to transfer budgets. Hopefully someone here will put me right on this.

Another problem we have, as we found out last year, is player sales don't necessarily equate to that cash going to purchases. If contracts are again up for renewal the cash gets swallowed into this budget as well. I know key players signed new contracts last year but I don't know who elses are due for a look at.

Redhead
6-6-10, 13:58
So, why did they sack Rafa??

Surely, how we do on the pitch is a big factor to how much money they can pocket ultimately??

Maybe, and a big maybe, was Rafa standing up to them saying 'I don't want my big players going anywhere'. If we are to be successful then we need them. And this could have cost him.

Do they see it differently as short term big profit turnover. Buy one guy for 20million, sell him for 50-60 million.

Mike-91
6-6-10, 14:02
Maybe, and a big maybe, was Rafa standing up to them saying 'I don't want my big players going anywhere'. If we are to be successful then we need them. And this could have cost him.

Do they see it differently as short term big profit turnover. Buy one guy for 20million, sell him for 50-60 million.

Thats the reason Rafas gone, he was more worried about the board room than coaching the team.

Its results that counts and Rafa wasnt getting them, if he made it into the top 4 then he would still be here. He didnt and got the boot.

This is a results business.

Gazza74
6-6-10, 14:04
Maybe, and a big maybe, was Rafa standing up to them saying 'I don't want my big players going anywhere'. If we are to be successful then we need them. And this could have cost him.

Do they see it differently as short term big profit turnover. Buy one guy for 20million, sell him for 50-60 million.

Or maybe they thought he did a crap job last season and want someone else in for next season as they lost all faith in him to do the job.

This club won't get any type of decent manager if they are going to sell big players over his head and then he ain't going to get any type of budget at all even with sales.

If this is the case, they should have just appointed Iain Dowie on Thursday and it'd be sorted. Why bother looking round with Kenny and Purslow if they want someone to stand on the touchline doing nothing next season and they're not bothered if we win, lose or draw.

Lot's of things don't add up in all these wild conspiracy theories for me and i'll wait and see what actually happens this summer.

It could be so simple as the board didn't rate Rafa anymore and they want their own man in and will back him, even if it's not necessarily Abu Dhabi backing.

Just a theory and no more/less viable than any other.

Redhead
6-6-10, 14:14
Or maybe they thought he did a crap job last season and want someone else in for next season as they lost all faith in him to do the job.

This club won't get any type of decent manager if they are going to sell big players over his head and then he ain't going to get any type of budget at all even with sales.

If this is the case, they should have just appointed Iain Dowie on Thursday and it'd be sorted. Why bother looking round with Kenny and Purslow if they want someone to stand on the touchline doing nothing next season and they're not bothered if we win, lose or draw.

Lot's of things don't add up in all these wild conspiracy theories for me and i'll wait and see what actually happens this summer.

It could be so simple as the board didn't rate Rafa anymore and they want their own man in and will back him, even if it's not necessarily Abu Dhabi backing.

Just a theory and no more/less viable than any other.

Iain Dowie, be careful what you wish for:D:D

Seriously I think the whole instability of the club is our downfall in the making. If we are talking managers of quality coming in, Kenny is going to have to do some serious charm offensive as the new manager will be putting their reputation on the line if they already have an established reputation. The problems we've got is no one knows if assurances can be given to the new manager. There have been so many lies and deceit over the past couple of years that the word 'trust' doesn't exist at Anfield any more. Purslow and Broughton are just puppets, they can only act on what they've been told, what they get told can change like the wind.

Redhead
6-6-10, 14:16
Thats the reason Rafas gone, he was more worried about the board room than coaching the team.

Its results that counts and Rafa wasnt getting them, if he made it into the top 4 then he would still be here. He didnt and got the boot.

This is a results business.

I agree with this. Problem being though if Rafa hadn't have stood up to them, who would have? Too many distractions

Mike-91
6-6-10, 14:17
I agree with this. Problem being though if Rafa hadn't have stood up to them, who would have? Too many distractions

I dont know, but like i said if Rafa had just coached the team we wouldnt be hearing Torres wants to leave and Gerrard because they want CL football.

Redhead
6-6-10, 14:22
I dont know, but like i said if Rafa had just coached the team we wouldnt be hearing Torres wants to leave and Gerrard because they want CL football.

I'm not sure either Gerrard or Torres would say they are leaving for CL football. I think Gerrard would consider leaving because he wouldn't want to be part of another rebuild as time is not on his side career wise. So if Gerrard goes, I think Torres would follow because he wants to be challenging for trophies and if key players leave that makes the job so so much harder

Mike-91
6-6-10, 14:49
I'm not sure either Gerrard or Torres would say they are leaving for CL football. I think Gerrard would consider leaving because he wouldn't want to be part of another rebuild as time is not on his side career wise. So if Gerrard goes, I think Torres would follow because he wants to be challenging for trophies and if key players leave that makes the job so so much harder

We dont need a rebuilding job like when Rafa came in.

We have a spine of world class players- Reina- Masch-Gerrard-Torres.

All is needed is someone to coach the players and bring in one or two players to improve the team.

Another striker and a left winger and a LB.

No major overhaul at all.

ScouseSoxNation
6-6-10, 15:02
agreed.

Like everyone else, i was dreading Torres & Gerrard possibly leaving but the more i think about it, if they dont want to be here, they can FR Off.

ScouseSoxNation
6-6-10, 15:06
They talk about a 'holy trinity' at Anfield.

Bill Shankly said when the fans, the manager and the players forge an unbreakable bond they can 'conquer the world'.



Rafa Benitez's Liverpool reign ended because he forgot a key component to the threesome: The players.

Buy well, make your team sweat blood for you and get results. It's a basic formula for any boss.

Shankly mastered it. He was ruthless but adored as a father figure by those who benefited from his wisdom.

His winning philosophy has been applied more successfully by Sir Alex Ferguson and Jose Mourinho than any recent Liverpool boss.

Contrast the scenes of Mourinho leaving Inter Milan with Benitez's Anfield departure. Players broke down in tears in Italy. There will be no hysterics from the Liverpool squad.

How did it come to this? This is a man who's inspired plays in his honour and commanded a religious devotion from some fans.

As with much at Anfield, image and reality didn't tally. Shankly, like Fergie and Mourinho, adopted an 'us versus the world' mentality.

At Liverpool it's been 'Rafa versus the world.' At its worst, it was 'Rafa versus his own club'.

The man named after a Spanish matador wasted too much time bull- fighting, waving his red rag.

Too often his ire was not aimed against Liverpool's rivals. He targeted his own employers, staff and players.

He had much to complain about due to the owners but his gripes were often perceived as self-serving excuses. If you go to war, you need chief lieutenants in the trenches. Benitez had minimal support.

From top to bottom Liverpool got sick of him. His exit was the only way to relieve the depression gripping the training ground. His departure should not only leave fans assessing where the club goes but cause some to re-think their own role.

There's a flaw in the ethos of a club which too readily makes gods of managers. Such was the cult of Benitez after his first two brilliant cup wins, it was joked Liverpool should put a goatie beard on the Liver bird and change its name to Rafapool.
Misguided

Like Gerard Houllier before him, Benitez transformed in the aftermath of early success from humble work-aholic to paranoid eccentric who'd start a fight at a pacifists' convention.

He was a serial arsonist. No sooner was one fire extinguished he'd light another match. Working for mad chairmen is an occupational hazard but most managers deal with it in a shrewder manner. There's a well meaning but misguided element of Liverpool's support seduced by Benitez's chippy approach.

They want Liverpool as a club and city to be belligerent street fighters and their extreme view of what the Scouse mentality is rooted in militant caricature. Benitez bought into this which is why his behaviour became so erratic.

He became obsessed by what the hardcore of fans thought to the detriment of his judgment and the respect of his squad. He was advised to publicly attack the Americans and Fergie to rally support. Merited though it was regarding Hicks and Gillett, it provided an embarrassing, undignified spectacle. Some on the Kop cheered but the rest of the football world mocked him. Rational Liverpool fans buried their head in their hands.

Results, not politics, kept him in his job in 2007. He had no shield this time.

He and his supporters claimed critics expected too much in demanding the title. Let's get it straight. He hasn't gone because he didn't win the league. He's gone because his team finished below Aston Villa. He's gone because he bought too many bad players. He's gone because his side lost to Reading in the FA Cup. He's gone because Liverpool finished seventh.

He's gone because he defended the latter stages of his reign with carefully spun statistics rather than actual performances.



And he's gone because, despite all this, he tried to shift blame. Many at Liverpool FC saw him as a political opportunist exploiting the ownership farce to present himself as a victim. He even fell out with Fernando Torres as simmering tensions exploded.

Much is made of Benitez's peculiar relationship with his players but another strange insight came early last season. Torres struck a hat-trick against Hull and asked for everyone to sign the ball. Benitez took it and wrote 'keep working'.

Torres, one of the 'senior players' criticised at the start of what became a dismal campaign, was dejected.

Some brushed this off as maintaining the bootroom tradition of a stalwart like Ronnie Moran, who'd end title campaigns by warning his players 'they'll need to do better next season'.

But it was argued there was no balance in Benitez's assessments. No ying to the yang.

Go back to Shankly, Fergie and Mourinho again and see how often they'd laud their star men.

"It's always about him," was the familiar complaint about Rafa. Tracing the beginnings of his decline takes you to his first attack on his own club in Athens, 2007. Before then his rebuilding efforts were magnificent. He was and still is a world-class coach.

But hours after defeat to AC Milan in the Champions League final, Benitez held what became a characteristically explosive Press conference. Once he'd crossed that line and (just about) got away with it, he never stopped lighting those fires.

A list of complaints which he'd repeat ad infinitum made their debut that day. He wanted more funds, an overhaul of the academy and a smarter business strategy. The implication that former chief executive Rick Parry was costing the club key signings became increasingly blatant.

The Americans' fatal error was to try and sack him too soon. The fans' backlash meant it was Parry who left.
Confrontational

With a title challenge earning him a new, five-year deal in 2009, Benitez thought he'd won his war. Instead he came up against Christian Purslow at a time when key players' form dipped and injuries took their toll.

Vulnerable, Benitez became more confrontational. Purslow soon found himself cast as panto villain amongst the clan referred to in Anfield circles as 'the Rafa mafia'. The poisonous leaks against Purslow were assisted by the careful manipulation of Benitez's sympathisers who laughably complained when the boss became the victim of his own smear tactics.

No matter how poor his signings, how inexcusable the performances or how costly his fall-outs, the inference was always he was the one suffering.

When the dust settles, Benitez may reflect on what he had at Liverpool and scarcely believe he threw it all away.

He had the control he wanted, chances to buy players and a world- class spine which, when the players were firing, could beat anyone.

But by picking at the club's scabs so often and so publicly he made himself unmanageable and, consequently, his position was untenable.

Some Liverpool fans will always see Benitez as a legend.

Others will say had he listened to the notorious advice that irked him so much it wouldn't have gone so badly wrong.

Had he 'focused only on coaching and training,' he'd probably have been here for five more years.

Mike90
6-6-10, 15:08
^^^^^

Siminole you're a very brave man posting that article in here I must say especially when you consider the source and the journalist who wrote it.

Fizzle
6-6-10, 15:19
They've started at half time and will no doubt continue late into the night about the immediate removal of Rafa. He's lost the plot, dressing room, his keys etc. Not even Rex Makin could defend him after that game.

Every single Liverpool fan will be fuming about that game and Rafa is the obvious easy candidate to blame for the failings this season. I've no doubt no one will be looking at missed chances, like Agger's free header which would have settled the team down, but more Rafa's choice to play Dossena instead of Benayoun (who incidently would still be in the treatment room if it wasn't for some horse massaging him or something like that).

Anyway back to my initial thoughts, what if the majority it now appears get their wish and Rafa walks away / sacked now or at the end of the season? In my view the club could implode and it could take us over five years to rectify it.

Firstly I believe the spine of our team would be out of the door within two transfer windows. Pepe, Agger, Masch and Torres gone. If we are poor now how would we be without them? By the way I don't think they would leave out of loyalty to Rafa, I just think they are all at a stage in their careers where they could genuinely walk into any team in Europe and be first choice in their retrospective positions. Would they want to stay and start a whole re-building process again with no guarantees of how it could pan out? I don't think they would to be honest. When Rafa came to the club in 2004, our two keys players at the time had a similar decision to make, one walked away and the other was so so close to doing the same 12 months later.
As for Gerrard and Carra now it is slightly different. I wouldn't begrudge Gerrard leaving either as he has given his all, however I don't think he'd leave at this stage in his career.

So the spine of the team could realistically leave, with no guarantee of that money being reinvested into the playing squad (remember the 30mil Alonso sale money, where did that go?)

Secondly we look at the issue of manager recruitment. Lets be honest who in their right mind would want to come to this club in its current state? Sell before you buy, shovels in the ground with 60 days (or was it years I can't remember now), owners who can't sit next to each other, the list goes on. If we were to draw up a shortlist of suitable candidates to replace Rafa, what would it look like: Hiddinck? The Portugese Fella? Capello? Hodgson? Could you really really see any of those characters wanting to come here to work in the current conditions? Really? And please don't come back with the 'but we are Liverpool.. . ' line because unfortunately that is irrelevant now as much as it pains me to say it.

If you are that set on wanting to see Rafa go are of a patient mentallity and are prepared to wait 5 years for the club to evolve again then I have no argument with you at all.

To conclude what do I think? I have backed Rafa wholeheartidly during his time as Liverpool manager. I am angry at him now for some reason, but angry in a way like I'd be at my brother or friend or parent if they let me down. It is a different kind of anger than against some random person who has just wound you up. Angry in a way that you feel they've let you down but know they will do everything they can to make it up to you. I know I'll get shot down for this but I still think he can pull us out of this mess. I look at the bigger picture of things in relation to this club and just can't help but think it would be a mistake to sack him now for the reasons I have highlighted above. I believe the absolute minimum he should be given is until the end of the season, and probably next season as well. It is quite a scary picture I have painted but as the thread title suggests for all Anti-Rafa people out there, be careful what you wish for . . .

What a post at the time. What a post right now, so releveant.

YNWA

Redhead
6-6-10, 15:28
^^^^^

Siminole you're a very brave man posting that article in here I must say especially when you consider the source and the journalist who wrote it.

Mike where did that article come from?

TheGhostOfDotTeeVeePast
6-6-10, 15:29
Mike where did that article come from?

NOTW

If we're discussing it i don't think it's unreasonable that somebody posts it for everyone to read.

Redhead
6-6-10, 15:29
What a post at the time. What a post right now, so releveant.

YNWA

Cheers Fizzle. Bumped it today because I still think it is quite relevant, even though it was written in December

Mike-91
6-6-10, 15:29
Mike where did that article come from?

Chris Bascombe from the NOTW

Mike-91
6-6-10, 15:30
NOTW

If we're discussing it i don't think it's unreasonable that somebody posts it for everyone to read.

You seem to like it.?

Redhead
6-6-10, 15:30
Chris Bascombe from the NOTW

Cheers, I'll ask for it to be removed

TheGhostOfDotTeeVeePast
6-6-10, 15:31
You seem to like it.?

I think he makes *some* accurate observations.

Mike-91
6-6-10, 15:31
Cheers, I'll ask for it to be removed

Why?

Daftvader
6-6-10, 15:33
I don't think there is too much to disagree with in that article.

Redhead
6-6-10, 15:39
Why?

I absolutely detest Bascombe. Not that it should be deleted for that reason. I was under the impression quoting from that paper on here is as good as quoting from its daily equivalent

Mike-91
6-6-10, 15:41
I absolutely detest Bascombe. Not that it should be deleted for that reason. I was under the impression quoting from that paper on here is as good as quoting from its daily equivalent

Mate theres always thing on here every sunday from the NOTW, go look around the forum today and you will find Bascombe piece in other threads.

Redhead
3-10-10, 12:08
Bumped, a discussion that started last December. How do we feel about it now?

SuperSpeedy
3-10-10, 12:14
Sorry don't judge a manager after six league games

Vanoord
3-10-10, 12:26
Bumped, a discussion that started last December. How do we feel about it now?

So far, you were right - but you referred to a longer-term problem than what we're seeing now.


Below is one of the best posts I read in the aftermath of Rafa's departure:


In the fifty years Ive been a Liverpool Supporter I can only remember a few occassions where I have felt more dis heartened.
I honestly fear for my beloved reds.
I read so much crap and vindictive nonsense about players and the manager ,politics now seems to be the only game in liverpool fc.
I will hang on to the memories of glories past and of games seen cups and championships won,of the fans I stood beside on the Kop. But I think that some of todays fans need to think long and hard about what is happenning to this Club.
If rafa goes who will replace him someone who will manage on a shoe string ?
We have been over taken by three teams who have spent considerably more money than us over the last season.
Gerrard has had an off season lets get rid of him. Torres is in and out of the team lets get rid of him. Lets have a clear out of all those players that the fans keep moaning about lucas leiva, dirk kuyt, Aquilani.
Lets get rid of all Rafas team of back room staff and lets start again only this time with no ********ing money,and a debt that we have to repay 40million per year on as interest.
You'll never walk alone I remember when we used to sing that song and mean it.
This is the last straw for me I will not be reading any more forums .I will support my Liverpool No matter what position in the premiership they come.
If some the multi millionaire football stars who keep kissing the badge actually played for the badge and spent more time improving thier game and less on thier Blogs perhaps we would have had a better season.
Lastly to the BOard and the owners Thanks a F***ing Bunch

As I said:


Be careful what you wish for, folks.

This isn't about the manager - this is just the cyst that demonstrates the massive cancer under the skin.

The problem wasn't Rafa and it isn't Roy.

Oddly, I think Roy will get the team sorted this season, but we can forget any thoughts of challenging for the league until Hicks & Gillett are long gone.

At the moment, the Champions League seems beyond our grasp, something that would have been unthinkable two years ago.

The next couple of weeks are going to be critical for the future of the club.

mikered
3-10-10, 12:27
I miss Rafa the Bullet.

YNWA

higgi
3-10-10, 12:31
but I would have Rafa over Hodgson any day of the week.

Many will say that we shouldn't make judgements on RH after 6 premier games but we have put in some alarmingly poor performances so far and all I'm hearing from RH is that our expectations are too high. I can't think of many positives Cole on a free, Torres staying are two, however, on the pitch we have been appalling! And we go into a game against relegation candidates who actually fancy their chances of picking up all three points.

PrideOfPaisley
3-10-10, 12:33
TBH, I think Roy is not doing a better job. He has invested significantly in playrs like Paulson etc, and the 1st team sheet has also changed. However, I fail to see a team of top 4 quality at all.

Seriously, does anyone truly believe our manager and HIS current first eleven is even remotley close to challenging for a champions league place? We are 18th. We suddenly have a leaky defence. We are being humiliated by teams like Northhampton. I am starting to get that Souness feeling. It's like he is overawed by the job and almost doesn't know what he's doing. His "rant" today was laughable.

20 years. We came close twice. Once with Ged, once with Rafa. I feel we a soooooo far away - we are no longer a premiership powerhouse. Anyone who truly believes we are, is deluded. How much money would you put down today on us finishing 4th? We are the new "Newcastle".

Roy has until Christmas. Otherwise, get Kenny in.

YNWA.

Redhead
3-10-10, 12:34
Sorry don't judge a manager after six league games

I'm not and haven't

higgi
3-10-10, 12:35
Judging by the performances we're not good enough to control a game at home against mighty Sunderland

SuperSpeedy
3-10-10, 12:36
I'm not and haven't

You asked us how we felt

I answered

Redhead
3-10-10, 12:40
You asked us how we felt

I answered

Apologies Superspeedy, I misiniterpreted your post. :)

Cossey
3-10-10, 12:40
Judging by the performances we're not good enough to control a game at home against mighty Sunderland

Sunderland aren't a bad side,granted we should be beating them at home normally, but we are hardly in a normal situation.

USE THE FORCE LUCAS
3-10-10, 12:45
TBH, I think Roy is not doing a better job. He has invested significantly in playrs like Paulson etc, and the 1st team sheet has also changed. However, I fail to see a team of top 4 quality at all.

Seriously, does anyone truly believe our manager and HIS current first eleven is even remotley close to challenging for a champions league place? We are 18th. We suddenly have a leaky defence. We are being humiliated by teams like Northhampton. I am starting to get that Souness feeling. It's like he is overawed by the job and almost doesn't know what he's doing. His "rant" today was laughable.

20 years. We came close twice. Once with Ged, once with Rafa. I feel we a soooooo far away - we are no longer a premiership powerhouse. Anyone who truly believes we are, is deluded. How much money would you put down today on us finishing 4th? We are the new "Newcastle".

Roy has until Christmas. Otherwise, get Kenny in.

YNWA.

His current first eleven are nowhere near challenging for a top 4 spot but given that he has only had 6 league games in charge and has a squad that finished 7th last season at his disposal give or take a few players.....nobody is expecting that.

I wouldn't class anything he has spent on new players as 'significant' considering he has only really brought in new players with the money that he spent on Mascherano.

We will improve once things begin to gel and players understand what they should be doing.

higgi
3-10-10, 12:48
I'm hearing lots of them the world cup, torres injuries, new manager, new players, new system/tactics, new manager. For Liverpool FC there should be no excuses offered for being beaten by Northampton and being in the bottom three of the premier league. Any talking should be saved for the pitch and what I wanna hear is a thrashing of a relegation candidate.

USE THE FORCE LUCAS
3-10-10, 12:55
I'm hearing lots of them the world cup, torres injuries, new manager, new players, new system/tactics, new manager. For Liverpool FC there should be no excuses offered for being beaten by Northampton and being in the bottom three of the premier league. Any talking should be saved for the pitch and what I wanna hear is a thrashing of a relegation candidate.

Would you say that these are valid reasons though rather than excuses?

higgi
3-10-10, 13:05
I should ask do these reasons make it accetable for Liverpool FC to sit in 18th position?

TheGhostOfDotTeeVeePast
3-10-10, 13:08
Judging by the performances we're not good enough to control a game at home against mighty Sunderland

The same Sunderland who have drew with UTD and Arsenal?

Navredman
3-10-10, 13:14
He's the manager now so give him a chance, a good win today will send us up the table big time ;)

Bewdleyfan
3-10-10, 13:15
The same Sunderland who have drew with UTD and Arsenal?

And beaten Man City!

Navredman
3-10-10, 13:16
The same Sunderland who have drew with UTD and Arsenal?

And beaten setee, is that your son higgi ? :D

TheGhostOfDotTeeVeePast
3-10-10, 13:17
And beaten setee, is that your son higgi ? :D

If he was i'd disown his ass.

higgi
3-10-10, 13:19
Thanks -Higgi-:D

higgi
3-10-10, 13:20
oops, I mean -Higgy- :)

higgi
3-10-10, 13:27
You've all made very valid points, that Sunderland's performance at Anfield was not a one-off! I hope for a much improved performance today by the red men.

USE THE FORCE LUCAS
3-10-10, 14:17
I should ask do these reasons make it accetable for Liverpool FC to sit in 18th position?

I am not sure what 'acceptable' really means now in terms of Liverpool Football Club.

Our history is one steeped in achievement...but those days are behind us for the foreseeable future and people need to accept that and come to terms with it.

We are 18th in the league at the moment because that is where we deserve to be for whatever reason.

You can't really point to one thing over the other being the cause of this...it is down to a mixture of everything that is happening at the club at this moment in time.

Blaming either the manager or the players is pointless......they are both just getting to know each other and seeing where the gap is in terms of where they are now and where they need to be to understand Roy's football ethos.

This is a learning process and the players need to be encouraged to change their behaviours and adapt to new things.

They will adapt...of that there is no doubt...but it is difficult to put a specific amount of time on when that will be.

Every training session will be a step in the right direction and we should see little changes to the shape of the team and our pattern of play as each game goes by.

Redhead
3-10-10, 21:10
You've all made very valid points, that Sunderland's performance at Anfield was not a one-off! I hope for a much improved performance today by the red men.

Didn't happen unfortunately.

Thespian
3-10-10, 21:36
Appointing Roy was always the wrong decision, but now, unless Dalglish is willing to risk everything by taking the reins while we lie in such a precarious position there would be no point I don't think in sacking him at this moment.

O'Neil is the only other viable option and I don't see him as much of an improvement on Roy.

JWhitelaw
3-10-10, 21:46
You asked us how we felt

I answered

There is no right time to judge a manager. Its based on many things and at present Hodgson is struggling, In many aspects. He seems completely overwhelmed by the task. His actions decision making and his comments add up to an individual struggling to come to terms with the job in hand. There is ni instant fix but the performances are getting worse game by game. His ideas are not getting through. Exactly what was his system of play today??? I dont even think the players knew what it was. His demeanour is that of a man who is sinking under the pressure. The derby is next up. If he cant lift up for that one then i cant see no way for back for him.

The Liver Bird Riseth
3-10-10, 21:52
Appointing Roy was always the wrong decision, but now, unless Dalglish is willing to risk everything by taking the reins while we lie in such a precarious position there would be no point I don't think in sacking him at this moment.

O'Neil is the only other viable option and I don't see him as much of an improvement on Roy.

I think Kenny loves the club so much that he would take the reins up. The supporters love him so much that they will give him time. Rafa's sacking and Roy's appointment has been so divisive I look forward to 90% of us getting behind a manager.

kopitecrash
3-10-10, 21:55
I wanted Rafa to have another season because I was convinced he could keep us doing well while youth talent came through and secured our future.

I tremendously regret that we didn't do that. But, Roy can still make us not regret the descision.

Sheen1979
3-10-10, 22:42
Rafa come back

Maudes77
3-10-10, 22:48
Quite a prophetic original post from Redhead.

Be careful what we wish for.....how very true.

jamiechloe
3-10-10, 22:53
Rafa come back

He's only 2nd in his league

:fishing

nuggs
3-10-10, 23:32
God I don't know

many said (probably me too) after last years debacle that (owners from satans ring aside) we just needed a manager to get more from from a good but not great squad of players. To get them playing better football, to play players in the right positions, to play a more attacking style and so on.

And here we are in the the ******* relegation zone.

Come on Roy, poor as some of our players are we're still better than this. Sort it the **** out.

HairyMover
3-10-10, 23:39
I wish Rafa was still here
:tumbleweed

Redhead
29-12-10, 23:32
Bump, what are we thinking now?

Redhead
5-2-11, 10:21
I've bumped this again because if you have time (or can be bothered) have a read through the thread as it is a pretty interesting insight into posters thoughts over the last 12-14 months.

One thing I will say I was entirely wrong about was Kenny Daglish. I expressed concern on this thread when we were looking for a new manager in the summer that I didn't think he was a suitable candidate. The change I've witnessed in the past few weeks alone from the entire football club, not just the performances on the pitch, is astonishing. Living proof that our current manager knows this club inside out.

Kenny is also surrounding himself with good, experienced people. Notably Steve Clarke.

Imagine if the whole Torres saga would have happened last summer? 50 mil into the club to finance an interest payment and certainly not to finance a replacement!

I've said a few things in this thread that did come true. One thing I was wrong about was Daglish. I hope he is installed as our permanent manager for the next few years and build on his excellent start to his second spell.

Finally god I hope I was wrong about Pepe. He really does need to stay.

mkd
5-2-11, 10:26
I've bumped this again because if you have time (or can be bothered) have a read through the thread as it is a pretty interesting insight into posters thoughts over the last 12-14 months.

One thing I will say I was entirely wrong about was Kenny Daglish. I expressed concern on this thread when we were looking for a new manager in the summer that I didn't think he was a suitable candidate. The change I've witnessed in the past few weeks alone from the entire football club, not just the performances on the pitch, is astonishing. Living proof that our current manager knows this club inside out.

Kenny is also surrounding himself with good, experienced people. Notably Steve Clarke.

Imagine if the whole Torres saga would have happened last summer? 50 mil into the club to finance an interest payment and certainly not to finance a replacement!

I've said a few things in this thread that did come true. One thing I was wrong about was Daglish. I hope he is installed as our permanent manager for the next few years and build on his excellent start to his second spell.

Finally god I hope I was wrong about Pepe. He really does need to stay.

I didn't post originally, but i agreed with what you said, and its scary how right you were. I also had my doubts about kenny, i hang my head in shame now, and gladly!

Redhead
5-2-11, 10:42
I didn't post originally, but i agreed with what you said, and its scary how right you were. I also had my doubts about kenny, i hang my head in shame now, and gladly!

I too hang my head about Kenny, but will glady admit when I am wrong

Alon1
5-2-11, 10:53
I think the real indications on where we are will come in the summer, so far we have seen some encouraging sings from the owners and Kenny specially, but in the summer we will see how the net spending will end up

bagaante
5-2-11, 10:59
im thinking rafa should never have been removed and replaced by roy, its like getting rid of a brand new audi and replacing it with an old micra (not even the bubble model:P), kenny on the other hand ive been impressed with, he may have been out of management for ages, but when rafa was replaced it should have been with someone like kenny who understood the liverpool way, and is a fantastic man and manager, or it should have been with someone equally good as management, not a leap backwards with roy hodgson, i said when he was given the job i thought it would be too much for him, i also feared for the football under him , sadly i was prooved right, kenny on the other hand is helping us play the best football weve played since roy evans and possibly even before that

i hope long term kenny gets the job, or we give it to someone whos prooved himself at the top level, but id honestly be surprised if kenny doesnt get it now given what hes done, how hes handled things and difficult situations, hes played the media like a kids toy, superb stuff, and ultimately i look foward to hearing what he says (like i always have) under roy i dreaded press conferences, it was like watching a car crash in slow motion at times

Redhead
5-2-11, 10:59
I think the real indications on where we are will come in the summer, so far we have seen some encouraging sings from the owners and Kenny specially, but in the summer we will see how the net spending will end up

Without me sounding too cliched alon1, I think this summer will be one of the most important in our history. It hopefully will point the club in the right direction for many years to come, both in terms of playing and our ground. Having listened to our owner yesterday, I'm in agreement with him. I think Anfield should be redeveloped, hopefully to around the 55 to 58,000 mark if that is possible

Vanoord
5-2-11, 11:00
I've bumped this again because if you have time (or can be bothered) have a read through the thread as it is a pretty interesting insight into posters thoughts over the last 12-14 months.

One thing I will say I was entirely wrong about was Kenny Daglish. I expressed concern on this thread when we were looking for a new manager in the summer that I didn't think he was a suitable candidate. The change I've witnessed in the past few weeks alone from the entire football club, not just the performances on the pitch, is astonishing. Living proof that our current manager knows this club inside out.

Kenny is also surrounding himself with good, experienced people. Notably Steve Clarke.

Imagine if the whole Torres saga would have happened last summer? 50 mil into the club to finance an interest payment and certainly not to finance a replacement!

I've said a few things in this thread that did come true. One thing I was wrong about was Daglish. I hope he is installed as our permanent manager for the next few years and build on his excellent start to his second spell.

Finally god I hope I was wrong about Pepe. He really does need to stay.


If it's any consolation, I think you were pretty-much right with your opening post.

Agger is a bit of an odd one - if Hodgson had stayed, he may well have been gone by now and there's certainly no chance whatsoever that Torres would have stayed for Roy given he walked out on Kenny.

As for Pepe, I'm happy to trust someone who knows a lot more about it than I do when he says that Pepe is committed to the club in a way that Torres never was.

As far as the premise of the thread - "be careful what you wish for" - I'd also say you hit the nail firmly on the head: as it turned out, the removal of Rafa in order to bring in Roy was a complete disaster and it's going to be another 18 months before we recover from the damage.

And Kenny? Well, I was slightly sceptical about him coming back, right up to the minute he was appointed. Since then, he's done many things that have convinced me that he's the man (perhaps the only man, at that) for the job - have a look at this for my thoughts. (http://forums.liverpoolfc.tv/showthread.php?t=232267)

Redhead
5-2-11, 11:05
Vanoord, just read your battling op thread. Brilliant stuff

KOPGIRL1971
5-2-11, 12:01
Without me sounding too cliched alon1, I think this summer will be one of the most important in our history. It hopefully will point the club in the right direction for many years to come, both in terms of playing and our ground. Having listened to our owner yesterday, I'm in agreement with him. I think Anfield should be redeveloped, hopefully to around the 55 to 58,000 mark if that is possible

Me too. I don't get why people want a 70,000-90,000 stadium for, when we are currently struggling to fill 45,000 seats.
Do we want to be the richest club in the land, or the most successful? To be the most successful, we don't necessarily have to be the richest.

HOWEVER, if we are the most successful, then it stands to reason that we will be very profitable, and that is what the owners must be thinking, otherwise they wouldn't be prepared to redevelop Anfield to a lower-than-expected capacity. Hicks and gillett wanted a brand new stadium because their only aim was to make money, fenway seem to have the club's interests at heart too.

Just my opinion.

Heighway501
5-2-11, 12:18
Me too. I don't get why people want a 70,000-90,000 stadium for, when we are currently struggling to fill 45,000 seats.
Do we want to be the richest club in the land, or the most successful? To be the most successful, we don't necessarily have to be the richest.

HOWEVER, if we are the most successful, then it stands to reason that we will be very profitable, and that is what the owners must be thinking, otherwise they wouldn't be prepared to redevelop Anfield to a lower-than-expected capacity. Hicks and gillett wanted a brand new stadium because their only aim was to make money, fenway seem to have the club's interests at heart too.

Just my opinion.

I suspect that the owners will do their homework carefully with regards to the seating capacity of the stadium, be it a redeveloped Anfield or a new one.

In terms of the current attendance numbers, that will come with the results.

Redhead
5-2-11, 12:41
Me too. I don't get why people want a 70,000-90,000 stadium for, when we are currently struggling to fill 45,000 seats.
Do we want to be the richest club in the land, or the most successful? To be the most successful, we don't necessarily have to be the richest.

HOWEVER, if we are the most successful, then it stands to reason that we will be very profitable, and that is what the owners must be thinking, otherwise they wouldn't be prepared to redevelop Anfield to a lower-than-expected capacity. Hicks and gillett wanted a brand new stadium because their only aim was to make money, fenway seem to have the club's interests at heart too.

Just my opinion.

Spot on kopgirl. I'm almost scared to say this but I'm actually looking forward to the future now for the first time since a care to remember

Redhead
5-2-11, 17:18
I suspect that the owners will do their homework carefully with regards to the seating capacity of the stadium, be it a redeveloped Anfield or a new one.

In terms of the current attendance numbers, that will come with the results.

I wonder if how long it will take to complete a re-development of Anfield? Interesting question as they'd have to factor in reduced attendances (and income) whilst sections of the ground are being developed

KOPGIRL1971
5-2-11, 20:46
I wonder if how long it will take to complete a re-development of Anfield? Interesting question as they'd have to factor in reduced attendances (and income) whilst sections of the ground are being developed

I will have a look and see if I can find the article, but last year I read a detailed post from someone on another forum who went into this, and the outcome was very favourable, ie, due to the rotational redevelopment of stands over just a couple of seasons, there was minimal disruption to attendances and capacity

here you go:

http://www.thisisanfield.com/2010/10/new-anfield-the-case-for-redevelopment/

Redhead
5-2-11, 20:48
I will have a look and see if I can find the article, but last year I read a detailed post from someone on another forum who went into this, and the outcome was very favourable, ie, due to the rotational redevelopment of stands over just a couple of seasons, there was minimal disruption to attendances and capacity

Cheers kopgirl, much appreciated

KOPGIRL1971
5-2-11, 20:49
Cheers kopgirl, much appreciated

in case you missed my edit:

http://www.thisisanfield.com/2010/10...redevelopment/
:)

not saying it's the definitive plan, but food for thought

Redhead
5-2-11, 20:56
in case you missed my edit:

http://www.thisisanfield.com/2010/10...redevelopment/
:)

not saying it's the definitive plan, but food for thought

Seems plausible kopgirl but as the author says they aren't architects. One thing I am confident about is our new owners aren't making sweeping statements about anything, just considering all options and giving due diligence to everything before any final decision is made.

KOPGIRL1971
5-2-11, 21:00
Seems plausible kopgirl but as the author says they aren't architects. One thing I am confident about is our new owners aren't making sweeping statements about anything, just considering all options and giving due diligence to everything before any final decision is made.

Just because we don;t think it can be done (because no-one in the past has made is feasible), doesn't mean it can't be don e, and in a way that ticks all the boxes. And just because the council were dead set against a rebuild doesn't mean they won't grant planning permission, if fenway can give them some viable regeneration plans/funding for the local community

Anything is possible if you make it sound acceptable

I agree with earlier poster who talked about extra revenue from corporate boxes, and how we are currently missing out on that big time,. but there's no reason why these can't be incorporated into a redeveloped Anfield - quite like the sound of watching the game from a Jacuzzi!

Snippes
5-2-11, 21:00
I've bumped this again because if you have time (or can be bothered) have a read through the thread as it is a pretty interesting insight into posters thoughts over the last 12-14 months.

One thing I will say I was entirely wrong about was Kenny Daglish. I expressed concern on this thread when we were looking for a new manager in the summer that I didn't think he was a suitable candidate. The change I've witnessed in the past few weeks alone from the entire football club, not just the performances on the pitch, is astonishing. Living proof that our current manager knows this club inside out.

Kenny is also surrounding himself with good, experienced people. Notably Steve Clarke.

Imagine if the whole Torres saga would have happened last summer? 50 mil into the club to finance an interest payment and certainly not to finance a replacement!

I've said a few things in this thread that did come true. One thing I was wrong about was Daglish. I hope he is installed as our permanent manager for the next few years and build on his excellent start to his second spell.

Finally god I hope I was wrong about Pepe. He really does need to stay.

Respect to you for owning to your previous positions. There are many others here, Fowi being a prime example, who argued with me all summer that Roy was the man. That Kenny was past it, the game had passed him by, that he hadn't been in management for too long and hence would not make a good manager for that.

There were many others here who pointed out that its not like Kenny was hiding in a cave with no access to football. Hell even Bin Ladin appears to receive cable news, FFS :D

The only thing about football that has changed is the mentality with managers coach their teams to play. And most of that mentality since Kenny has left has been negative anyway. The art of parking the bus and coaching your players without the ball till they forget how to use it, and coaching your team to NOT play football. The basic concept of pass and move and keep the ball has not changed.

All Kenny needed was someone to help implement his philosophies on the training ground with the modern methods utilized today, and this is what we keep hearing our players say in interviews lately. But the mantra and identity of this team comes from Kenny and that was never going to leave his body or mind as this is the only way he knows how.

On your other predictions, I shared many of them as said so many times. I am over the moon we have Kenny now obviously but I knew that getting rid of Rafa would also create more harm than good in the immediacy, not just on the pitch....but off it. He had built a hell of a spine here and I always had a fear that once Rafa left, Torres would not as a sure a stay here as if he had remained in charge.

But hey, football is change and change is football. No need harping over that spine...Kenny is building a new one now and we just have to focus on that now moving forward.

crobra
6-2-11, 00:38
People need to get over Rafa already. Was a better manager than Roy? Yes.
But would we be challenging for the league this year if Rafa was still manager? No!! End of story.
Roy took over the club in crisis. The owners were being forced out for financial reasons and it was a messy divorce. He starts the season and by the second game, one of his best players refuses to play. His best player, who is Torres, doesn't want to be here and it sulking on the pitch. He captain is playing poorly and seems to still be sulking over loss of Alonso. At the end of day I don't see how he could have been successful.
If Rafa was here, it would be no different. We would not be in the top 4 and Torres would still leave. Mash refused to extend his contract last year for a reason and Rafa would have been forced to let him go also. The problem I have with Rafa is he is to polarizing. Hicks and Gillette contributed significantly to our current state, but Rafa also helped. The constant talking to the press, fighting with players, Pako etc... What happened at Inter speaks volumes about his ability to get along others.

What Kenny means by going back to the Liverpool way is exactly the opposite of Rafa would do with regards to the press and airing dirty laundry.

I do believe Rafa did a lot of good and moved the club forward in many ways, but his shelf life had expired. We were not going to win the league with Rafa and took us as far as he could take us. I like Rafa and hope him the best in the future, but he needs to understand that his just the manager. Big clubs are worth hundreds of millions of dollars, euros, pounds whatever... The owners or investors will want some input on how it is spent and general direction of a club, because poor investment can completely ruin a club financial and bankrupt the investor.

Again, this is just my opinion.

Redhead
2-4-12, 00:13
Bump. I don't know what to think anymore. Not too surprised that we lost today as the form book suggested Newcastle were favourites. However, it is the manner of the defeats I'm struggling to cope with.

TheGhostOfDotTeeVeePast
2-4-12, 00:16
Keep the faith.

Hold your nerve and get to the summer.

GeorgeLFC
2-4-12, 00:26
They've started at half time and will no doubt continue late into the night about the immediate removal of Rafa. He's lost the plot, dressing room, his keys etc. Not even Rex Makin could defend him after that game.

Every single Liverpool fan will be fuming about that game and Rafa is the obvious easy candidate to blame for the failings this season. I've no doubt no one will be looking at missed chances, like Agger's free header which would have settled the team down, but more Rafa's choice to play Dossena instead of Benayoun (who incidently would still be in the treatment room if it wasn't for some horse massaging him or something like that).

Anyway back to my initial thoughts, what if the majority it now appears get their wish and Rafa walks away / sacked now or at the end of the season? In my view the club could implode and it could take us over five years to rectify it.

Firstly I believe the spine of our team would be out of the door within two transfer windows. Pepe, Agger, Masch and Torres gone. If we are poor now how would we be without them? By the way I don't think they would leave out of loyalty to Rafa, I just think they are all at a stage in their careers where they could genuinely walk into any team in Europe and be first choice in their retrospective positions. Would they want to stay and start a whole re-building process again with no guarantees of how it could pan out? I don't think they would to be honest. When Rafa came to the club in 2004, our two keys players at the time had a similar decision to make, one walked away and the other was so so close to doing the same 12 months later.
As for Gerrard and Carra now it is slightly different. I wouldn't begrudge Gerrard leaving either as he has given his all, however I don't think he'd leave at this stage in his career.

So the spine of the team could realistically leave, with no guarantee of that money being reinvested into the playing squad (remember the 30mil Alonso sale money, where did that go?)

Secondly we look at the issue of manager recruitment. Lets be honest who in their right mind would want to come to this club in its current state? Sell before you buy, shovels in the ground with 60 days (or was it years I can't remember now), owners who can't sit next to each other, the list goes on. If we were to draw up a shortlist of suitable candidates to replace Rafa, what would it look like: Hiddinck? The Portugese Fella? Capello? Hodgson? Could you really really see any of those characters wanting to come here to work in the current conditions? Really? And please don't come back with the 'but we are Liverpool.. . ' line because unfortunately that is irrelevant now as much as it pains me to say it.

If you are that set on wanting to see Rafa go are of a patient mentallity and are prepared to wait 5 years for the club to evolve again then I have no argument with you at all.

To conclude what do I think? I have backed Rafa wholeheartidly during his time as Liverpool manager. I am angry at him now for some reason, but angry in a way like I'd be at my brother or friend or parent if they let me down. It is a different kind of anger than against some random person who has just wound you up. Angry in a way that you feel they've let you down but know they will do everything they can to make it up to you. I know I'll get shot down for this but I still think he can pull us out of this mess. I look at the bigger picture of things in relation to this club and just can't help but think it would be a mistake to sack him now for the reasons I have highlighted above. I believe the absolute minimum he should be given is until the end of the season, and probably next season as well. It is quite a scary picture I have painted but as the thread title suggests for all Anti-Rafa people out there, be careful what you wish for . . .

Wow! credit where it due, you saw it before others. btw that bold part. Freaky, are you yoda or somethin? The force is strong with you mate. :D

Redhead
2-4-12, 00:49
Wow! credit where it due, you saw it before others. btw that bold part. Freaky, are you yoda or somethin? The force is strong with you mate. :D

:)

Interesting reading this thread George. Posters happy in 2009 to have Rafa removed and wait 5 years for the club to be turned around? Yet so much arguing on our lack of instant success now?

I started this thread from the heart and I do believe we made a big mistake in removing our then manager, someone who gave us a status within Europe that is only a pipe dream now and seems light years away.

I'm struggling to comprehend our situation at the moment. Like every single Liverpool fan I am desperate for Kenny to succeed and rebuild the team to a challenging force domestically and on the continent. I'm currently struggling to see what direction we are heading in and how we are going to dig ourselves out of this mess.

Kloppette
2-4-12, 00:58
Its a great OP and so very true, it was how I felt at the time but certain powers that be thought they knew best, bunch of idiots.

Its a good job I have a lot more faith in these owners at the moment, they actually know and understand what they are doing.

Thespian
2-4-12, 01:16
As much as I love Kenny who I wanted to take over as soon as Rafa was sacked.

How anyone can still argue that getting rid of Rafa was the right decision is beyond me.

Redhead
2-4-12, 10:51
As much as I love Kenny who I wanted to take over as soon as Rafa was sacked.

How anyone can still argue that getting rid of Rafa was the right decision is beyond me.

Agree with this thespian and I tried to argue it at the time but it was kind of swimming against the tide. He should have been given one more season, and during that period the club would achieve off field stability

Oh-Bout-Tree-Fiddy
2-4-12, 10:55
if Kenny did go (Which i hope he doesnt, one more season at least!) then Rafa is the man id want......Cant see it though

SWKop
2-4-12, 11:07
I agreed with Redhead at the time of the original post, no matter how dissapointed I/we were with the season as it panned out at the time. It was difficult for all of us to take. From going from an almighty force in the Champs League to a 7th placed finish and a pathetic limp wristed exit from the Group Stages was getting everyone down. But I still wanted him to be our manager. I was willing to wipe that season under the carpet and hope for the future. It was the least the man deserved.

I am now hoping the same for Kenny. I'm heatbroken at how our season has turned out, but what was true then, is true now, I want to sweep this one under the carpet and see what happens in the Summer and next season. I think its blind impatience to get rid of Kenny now. I feel he should be given another chance. I can completely understand some posters arguements and frustrations at how poor we've been recently, but come on, up until the New Year we weren't THAT bad, just a tad unlucky. If we had bought a striker in January then maybe things would be different. Who knows?

I just hope to god that Kenny is given another season and the funds to buy QUALITY players. He is owed that much at least in my opinion.

Dont-Funk-With-The-Sakho
2-4-12, 11:11
I would just like patience with the supporters, I know its tough and results are going against. I just wish the remaining 7games come quickly so that we can look forward to next season, regardless of results. I would like us to win the remaining fixtures but the teams form is letting us down. I just hope the team lifts a 2nd trophy that they can atleast lifts their heads up high and push on for the next season.

Redhead
2-4-12, 11:26
I agreed with Redhead at the time of the original post, no matter how dissapointed I/we were with the season as it panned out at the time. It was difficult for all of us to take. From going from an almighty force in the Champs League to a 7th placed finish and a pathetic limp wristed exit from the Group Stages was getting everyone down. But I still wanted him to be our manager. I was willing to wipe that season under the carpet and hope for the future. It was the least the man deserved.

I am now hoping the same for Kenny. I'm heatbroken at how our season has turned out, but what was true then, is true now, I want to sweep this one under the carpet and see what happens in the Summer and next season. I think its blind impatience to get rid of Kenny now. I feel he should be given another chance. I can completely understand some posters arguements and frustrations at how poor we've been recently, but come on, up until the New Year we weren't THAT bad, just a tad unlucky. If we had bought a striker in January then maybe things would be different. Who knows?

I just hope to god that Kenny is given another season and the funds to buy QUALITY players. He is owed that much at least in my opinion.

Brilliantly said. It echoes exactly how I'm feeling now. We can't carry on just getting rid at the first sign of things not quite going according to plan.

AAliya
2-4-12, 13:15
Rafa worked under extreme pressures..i.e OWNWERs in his last couple of seasons..yes he made some mistakes but he should have not gone..with money to spent like kenny had he would have taken us to another level

domino
2-4-12, 13:52
As I said at the time, we didn;t realise how good we had it in those days under Rafa, and that it would take a very, very long time to get back there.

Of course I was told I was taling crap :rolleyes:

lfcstlouis
2-4-12, 13:54
As I said at the time, we didn;t realise how good we had it in those days under Rafa, and that it would take a very, very long time to get back there.

Of course I was told I was taling crap :rolleyes:

:scarf

You are the best

TomHighwaysM16
2-4-12, 13:58
Rafael Benitez was an overachiever. We were just plain stupid to realize that. He made me go amok at times, but deep down I was always afraid that we might go out of CL after he left.

Fowi
2-4-12, 13:59
Rafael Benitez was an overachiever. We were just plain stupid to realize that. He made me go amok at times, but deep down I was always afraid that we might go out of CL after he left.

We went out of CL while he was still here.

TomHighwaysM16
2-4-12, 14:53
We went out of CL while he was still here.

Yup. But would we come back?

Bali2
2-4-12, 15:02
We went out of CL while he was still here.

Which was down to what?

Did it happen because Rafa was the problem?

Or was it because H&G were bleeding this club dry and the "buy-to-sell" policy imposed on Benitez finally came to its inevitable fruition?

The answer, based on what we know of the H&G reign and everything that happened up to the hour before we were due into administration, is the latter.

You make a habit of talking and talking about things as though you're better informed and more of an expert than the rest of us. You're not, and you never have been (as your support for Hodgson proved). The OP on this got things spot on.

So many of us were ridiculed by you and your cohorts over Rafa's sacking and his worth to this club. Well - the OP was right and you and your mates were completely wrong. Coming up with pedantic nonsense such as the above serves no purpose at all.

This club sacked the best manager we had in twenty years. It was a mistake then, it's still a mistake now. As much as I and others love Kenny Dalglish and want him to succeed, we aren't blind. He should never have been put in this position. Instead the man that bought him back into the LFC fold was betrayed. They say chickens always come home to roost. Ours are doing just that.

KOPGIRL1971
2-4-12, 16:55
if Kenny did go (Which i hope he doesnt, one more season at least!) then Rafa is the man id want......Cant see it though

If Rafa was to come back at all it wouldn't be until after gerrard and carragher have gone, they hold too much sway and carragher said at the time it was time for change. It was also very telling that gerrard never once mentioned Rafa after he left, all he wanted to do was concentrate on the world cup and even after he returned, he never once said thanks Rafa for helping me become one of the greatest ever midfielders, even if that meant playing out on the right, where I scored a record 23 goals one season :rolleyes:

Love Gerrard, but he wanted rid of Rafa and with christian purslows help, he got his way.

I am also beginning to wonder if we will ever get anywhere with Stevie in the team in future. As outrageous as that might sound (and, yes, I take into account all the times he carried us), it can't be denied that, generally, we have performed worse when he has been in the team than when he has been out injured. Kenny has been strong enough to drop carragher, but would he be strong enough to drop our captain? I doubt it.

I always dreamed of Stevie winning the premiership with us, but that's looking highly unlikely now, so maybe it would be better all round if Stevie left to play in a decent side that has a chance of winning something major, and we can begin to rebuild our midfield.

Can't believe I've even said that, and maybe with Lucas back next season (fingers crossed) to steady the ship we can kick on again, but we have to look to the future, and that future will one day have to be without Stevie G. If it becomes obvious that our midfield is not functioning properly because of him then difficult decisions will have to be made sooner rather than later.

Oh dear, now I've depressed myself because I love Gerrard :(

Parrant
2-4-12, 16:58
Rafa did some good things but I can never forgive him for getting rid of Alonso

As for Kenny being manager...well using your No.1 Legend as your manager is fraught with danger...if it works out his status is enhanced, if not it is perilous.

KOPGIRL1971
2-4-12, 17:01
Rafa did some good things but I can never forgive him for getting rid of Alonso

That was indeed a shocker :( although gazza74 will tell you that he underperformed for the previous 2 season, so it was justified (even if large parts of that time he was injured) ;)

RedRob67
2-4-12, 19:15
Rafa worked under extreme pressures..i.e OWNWERs in his last couple of seasons..yes he made some mistakes but he should have not gone..with money to spent like kenny had he would have taken us to another level


dont believe that ...

he would do what he had always done .. he would not move from what he believed in ..

bit like any good manager , just do not see him as one that moves quickly and risks things .

We have no quick fix , who ever takes the helm , or remains .

Vanoord
2-4-12, 19:16
They've started at half time and will no doubt continue late into the night about the immediate removal of Rafa. He's lost the plot, dressing room, his keys etc..


...for all Anti-Rafa people out there, be careful what you wish for . . .

Never a truer word.

The Liver Bird Riseth
2-4-12, 19:18
i don't know any of thexenophobic know it alls have apologised for Rafa's sacking.

Ganymede
2-4-12, 19:18
Rafa did some good things but I can never forgive him for getting rid of Alonso

As for Kenny being manager...well using your No.1 Legend as your manager is fraught with danger...if it works out his status is enhanced, if not it is perilous.



That and for not starting Bellamy and Crouch in Athens! :FP:

Redhead
2-4-12, 20:23
Rafa did some good things but I can never forgive him for getting rid of Alonso

As for Kenny being manager...well using your No.1 Legend as your manager is fraught with danger...if it works out his status is enhanced, if not it is perilous.

It was a mistake no doubt, but I'm sure one he has learned from.

Yozza71
2-4-12, 21:08
If Rafa was to come back at all it wouldn't be until after gerrard and carragher have gone, they hold too much sway and carragher said at the time it was time for change. It was also very telling that gerrard never once mentioned Rafa after he left, all he wanted to do was concentrate on the world cup and even after he returned, he never once said thanks Rafa for helping me become one of the greatest ever midfielders, even if that meant playing out on the right, where I scored a record 23 goals one season :rolleyes:

Love Gerrard, but he wanted rid of Rafa and with christian purslows help, he got his way.

I am also beginning to wonder if we will ever get anywhere with Stevie in the team in future. As outrageous as that might sound (and, yes, I take into account all the times he carried us), it can't be denied that, generally, we have performed worse when he has been in the team than when he has been out injured. Kenny has been strong enough to drop carragher, but would he be strong enough to drop our captain? I doubt it.

I always dreamed of Stevie winning the premiership with us, but that's looking highly unlikely now, so maybe it would be better all round if Stevie left to play in a decent side that has a chance of winning something major, and we can begin to rebuild our midfield.

Can't believe I've even said that, and maybe with Lucas back next season (fingers crossed) to steady the ship we can kick on again, but we have to look to the future, and that future will one day have to be without Stevie G. If it becomes obvious that our midfield is not functioning properly because of him then difficult decisions will have to be made sooner rather than later.

Oh dear, now I've depressed myself because I love Gerrard :(

As sad as that sounds, I think you're right... Was saying so myself yesterday... I don't think it's THE answer, but our transition would be helped enormously if Gerrard and Carragher weren't around... You never know, Kenny had a clearout last time he took the reins... It could happen.

Paullfc1976
2-4-12, 21:11
Rafa did some good things but I can never forgive him for getting rid of Alonso

As for Kenny being manager...well using your No.1 Legend as your manager is fraught with danger...if it works out his status is enhanced, if not it is perilous.

A bit dramatic.

He did want to get rid of Alonso, I know, but we ended up keeping him and that same he had his best one with us.

Sadly Alonso didn't want to stay because he felt Rafa mistreated him.

Redhead
2-4-12, 21:50
As sad as that sounds, I think you're right... Was saying so myself yesterday... I don't think it's THE answer, but our transition would be helped enormously if Gerrard and Carragher weren't around... You never know, Kenny had a clearout last time he took the reins... It could happen.

It could happen, and if it was I think Kenny is the man to do it. I think if any other manager tried, the majority of fans would be in uproar.

BostonFans
2-4-12, 22:00
If Rafa was to come back at all it wouldn't be until after gerrard and carragher have gone, they hold too much sway and carragher said at the time it was time for change. It was also very telling that gerrard never once mentioned Rafa after he left, all he wanted to do was concentrate on the world cup and even after he returned, he never once said thanks Rafa for helping me become one of the greatest ever midfielders, even if that meant playing out on the right, where I scored a record 23 goals one season :rolleyes:

Love Gerrard, but he wanted rid of Rafa and with christian purslows help, he got his way.

I am also beginning to wonder if we will ever get anywhere with Stevie in the team in future. As outrageous as that might sound (and, yes, I take into account all the times he carried us), it can't be denied that, generally, we have performed worse when he has been in the team than when he has been out injured. Kenny has been strong enough to drop carragher, but would he be strong enough to drop our captain? I doubt it.

I always dreamed of Stevie winning the premiership with us, but that's looking highly unlikely now, so maybe it would be better all round if Stevie left to play in a decent side that has a chance of winning something major, and we can begin to rebuild our midfield.

Can't believe I've even said that, and maybe with Lucas back next season (fingers crossed) to steady the ship we can kick on again, but we have to look to the future, and that future will one day have to be without Stevie G. If it becomes obvious that our midfield is not functioning properly because of him then difficult decisions will have to be made sooner rather than later.

Oh dear, now I've depressed myself because I love Gerrard :(

It's called "The Ewing Theory," and Wenger did it with Henry.

Sometimes in sports you have to be merciless, but this is a discussion for another thread.

Pnigro
2-4-12, 22:16
If Rafa was to come back at all it wouldn't be until after gerrard and carragher have gone, they hold too much sway and carragher said at the time it was time for change. It was also very telling that gerrard never once mentioned Rafa after he left, all he wanted to do was concentrate on the world cup and even after he returned, he never once said thanks Rafa for helping me become one of the greatest ever midfielders, even if that meant playing out on the right, where I scored a record 23 goals one season :rolleyes:

Love Gerrard, but he wanted rid of Rafa and with christian purslows help, he got his way.

I am also beginning to wonder if we will ever get anywhere with Stevie in the team in future. As outrageous as that might sound (and, yes, I take into account all the times he carried us), it can't be denied that, generally, we have performed worse when he has been in the team than when he has been out injured. Kenny has been strong enough to drop carragher, but would he be strong enough to drop our captain? I doubt it.

I always dreamed of Stevie winning the premiership with us, but that's looking highly unlikely now, so maybe it would be better all round if Stevie left to play in a decent side that has a chance of winning something major, and we can begin to rebuild our midfield.

Can't believe I've even said that, and maybe with Lucas back next season (fingers crossed) to steady the ship we can kick on again, but we have to look to the future, and that future will one day have to be without Stevie G. If it becomes obvious that our midfield is not functioning properly because of him then difficult decisions will have to be made sooner rather than later.

Oh dear, now I've depressed myself because I love Gerrard :(

I completely agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You speak the truth.

Liverdinner
2-4-12, 22:17
Disagree with you idea that Rafa shouldnt have been sacked and I think your view is falsely given credence by our poor year.

But nice OP anyway, decent read.

EAB84
2-4-12, 22:18
If Rafa was to come back at all it wouldn't be until after gerrard and carragher have gone, they hold too much sway and carragher said at the time it was time for change. It was also very telling that gerrard never once mentioned Rafa after he left, all he wanted to do was concentrate on the world cup and even after he returned, he never once said thanks Rafa for helping me become one of the greatest ever midfielders, even if that meant playing out on the right, where I scored a record 23 goals one season :rolleyes:

Love Gerrard, but he wanted rid of Rafa and with christian purslows help, he got his way.

I am also beginning to wonder if we will ever get anywhere with Stevie in the team in future. As outrageous as that might sound (and, yes, I take into account all the times he carried us), it can't be denied that, generally, we have performed worse when he has been in the team than when he has been out injured. Kenny has been strong enough to drop carragher, but would he be strong enough to drop our captain? I doubt it.

I always dreamed of Stevie winning the premiership with us, but that's looking highly unlikely now, so maybe it would be better all round if Stevie left to play in a decent side that has a chance of winning something major, and we can begin to rebuild our midfield.

Can't believe I've even said that, and maybe with Lucas back next season (fingers crossed) to steady the ship we can kick on again, but we have to look to the future, and that future will one day have to be without Stevie G. If it becomes obvious that our midfield is not functioning properly because of him then difficult decisions will have to be made sooner rather than later.

Oh dear, now I've depressed myself because I love Gerrard :(

You make a great point and I do wonder just how large a role Gerrard and Carragher played in Hodgson being appointed manager.

Reading the below in an article in the Irish Independent made me reflect on that situation again, and to be honest, really worries me.

"We've got a great togetherness about the squad, there's a lot of British players there now," Jamie Carragher said last October. "We went for a meal out before the derby and it was interesting that my wife could actually talk to some of the other wives without having to think of something in Spanish or French or something different. I think that will be a great thing for us this season."

It's heartening that the wives of the new signings have made such a positive impression at the dinner table, because the results on the pitch have been all that could be expected from a self-limiting approach to recruitment. Liverpool had six British players on the pitch when they collapsed at QPR. They started with the same number in last weekend's defeat to Wigan.

BostonFans
2-4-12, 22:26
"We've got a great togetherness about the squad, there's a lot of British players there now," Jamie Carragher said last October. "We went for a meal out before the derby and it was interesting that my wife could actually talk to some of the other wives without having to think of something in Spanish or French or something different. I think that will be a great thing for us this season."


I find this quote to be rather discomfiting.

purejam
2-4-12, 22:31
That was indeed a shocker :( although gazza74 will tell you that he underperformed for the previous 2 season, so it was justified (even if large parts of that time he was injured) ;)

Gazza is right. Most of us forget because Alonso left as our outstanding midfielder. But for a season and a half he seem off the pace, a liability in the tackle and unable to dictate games.

We couldn't offload him to Juve in summer 2008 and he want on to have a fabulous season.

If beavis and butthead hadn't been beavis and butthead, Benitez would have been able to buy Barry that summer without having to sell Alonso. That sell-to-buy policy messed us up big time.

Jannno
2-4-12, 22:41
If Rafa was to come back at all it wouldn't be until after gerrard and carragher have gone, they hold too much sway and carragher said at the time it was time for change. It was also very telling that gerrard never once mentioned Rafa after he left, all he wanted to do was concentrate on the world cup and even after he returned, he never once said thanks Rafa for helping me become one of the greatest ever midfielders, even if that meant playing out on the right, where I scored a record 23 goals one season :rolleyes:

Love Gerrard, but he wanted rid of Rafa and with christian purslows help, he got his way.

I am also beginning to wonder if we will ever get anywhere with Stevie in the team in future. As outrageous as that might sound (and, yes, I take into account all the times he carried us), it can't be denied that, generally, we have performed worse when he has been in the team than when he has been out injured. Kenny has been strong enough to drop carragher, but would he be strong enough to drop our captain? I doubt it.

I always dreamed of Stevie winning the premiership with us, but that's looking highly unlikely now, so maybe it would be better all round if Stevie left to play in a decent side that has a chance of winning something major, and we can begin to rebuild our midfield.

Can't believe I've even said that, and maybe with Lucas back next season (fingers crossed) to steady the ship we can kick on again, but we have to look to the future, and that future will one day have to be without Stevie G. If it becomes obvious that our midfield is not functioning properly because of him then difficult decisions will have to be made sooner rather than later.

Oh dear, now I've depressed myself because I love Gerrard :(

I've been thinking this myself KG - Kenny is the only person inside or outside the club can that do that deed when it is time, as he is with demoting Carra in favour of Skrtel, and Kenny will have to do it when he is in a position of strength, which he isn't at the moment. The alternative is for Stevie to go on playing too long until it it becomes obvious it is holding the team back andwe all suffer as a result.

WindyShepherdHenderson
2-4-12, 22:45
Rafa should have gone when he did. Just because we've been terrible since he left doesn't change that fact.

Redhead
2-4-12, 22:48
I've been thinking this myself KG - Kenny is the only person inside or outside the club can that do that deed when it is time, as he is with demoting Carra in favour of Skrtel, and Kenny will have to do it when he is in a position of strength, which he isn't at the moment. The alternative is for Stevie to go on playing too long until it it becomes obvious it is holding the team back andwe all suffer as a result.

Janno I agree with kopgirl and yourself in regards to this, however didn't Gerrard just sign a 'long term' contract. I know they aren't worth the paper they're written on but it would mean any interested party would have to fork out top dollar for him and I'm not sure many clubs would risk it now?

Redhead
2-4-12, 22:51
Rafa should have gone when he did. Just because we've been terrible since he left doesn't change that fact.

So are you saying we've have been as bad the last two seasons if he had stayed? Not even a chance of CL qualification which was the acceptable minimum whilst he was in charge?

Jannno
2-4-12, 22:53
Janno I agree with kopgirl and yourself in regards to this, however didn't Gerrard just sign a 'long term' contract. I know they aren't worth the paper they're written on but it would mean any interested party would have to fork out top dollar for him and I'm not sure many clubs would risk it now?

I think Kenny talked about him having a contract which extended beyond his playing career into another role he might have for the club afterwards, so I don't think he'll go anywhere else.

I felt at the time that was the first time the club has officially said anything about him being anything other than a player, so I reckon Kenny has an exit strategy in mind. He has to break it to people gently over time for them to get used to the idea imo., as there'll undoubtedly be accusations of "who does he think he is getting rid of a club legend..." etc otherwise, and as I said, no manager, doesn't matter who it is, would be able to come in and do that. There would have to be instant success or it would go up in flames.

Just my view

WindyShepherdHenderson
2-4-12, 22:54
So are you saying we've have been as bad the last two seasons if he had stayed? Not even a chance of CL qualification which was the acceptable minimum whilst he was in charge?

No idea. We'll never know.

Liverdinner
2-4-12, 22:55
So are you saying we've have been as bad the last two seasons if he had stayed? Not even a chance of CL qualification which was the acceptable minimum whilst he was in charge?

I think he started the rot. Which was then not cured.

BostonFans
2-4-12, 22:56
No idea. We'll never know.

I do know that there's an amazing about of retrospective lust for Rafa's tenure. I can't for the life of me understand it.

Redhead
2-4-12, 22:57
No idea. We'll never know.

I only asked because you stated it was right for Rafa to go when he did. We'll never know if that was right, but the evidence suggests it was the wrong call.

SomeKloppo
2-4-12, 22:59
I find this quote to be rather discomfiting.

Yeah me too. When we had 5 Spanish internationals in our team; Jamie's wife couldn't talk to them so get rid of them and get British players so his wife has a better social life. :D

WirralRiddler
2-4-12, 23:00
Rafa should have gone when he did. Just because we've been terrible since he left doesn't change that fact.

It was never a fact in the first place.

BostonFans
2-4-12, 23:01
Yeah me too. When we had 5 Spanish internationals in our team; Jamie's wife couldn't talk to them so get rid of them and get British players so his wife has a better social life. :D

Get his wife some damn Spanish lessons. Jesus, World Cup winners in the team and my wife can't talk to their wives :crying

Science has shown some interesting results for people who learn more than one language, it improves mental health and memory well into advanced age.

Redhead
2-4-12, 23:01
I think he started the rot. Which was then not cured.

I think the previous owners, Rafa and the players started the rot. The previous owners are gone, Rafa has gone, yet the rot still resides. Only one group currently left. . .

SomeKloppo
2-4-12, 23:03
That and for not starting Bellamy and Crouch in Athens! :FP:

He got Alonso here in the first place for 10 million. I'm sure you would have been tearing your hair out as to why we didn't get Lee Bowyer or someone.

He got us to the champions league final himself. I'm sure you would have been tearing your hair out as to why Bellamy and Riise started at the Nou camp.

TheRiedle
2-4-12, 23:04
He got Alonso here in the first place for 10 million. I'm sure you would have been tearing your hair out as to why we didn't get Lee Bowyer or someone.

He got us to the champions league final himself. I'm sure you would have been tearing your hair out as to why Bellamy and Riise started at the Nou camp.

:D

WindyShepherdHenderson
2-4-12, 23:05
He got Alonso here in the first place for 10 million. I'm sure you would have been tearing your hair out as to why we didn't get Lee Bowyer or someone.

The awkward moment when we almost signed Lee Bowyer for 9m in 2002.

Liverdinner
2-4-12, 23:05
I think the previous owners, Rafa and the players started the rot. The previous owners are gone, Rafa has gone, yet the rot still resides. Only one group currently left. . .

Rot continues until rectified.

Sadly Roy didnt really have funds or most likely the capabilities and Kenny wasted a great chance in January and Summer to get us back up there.

If that 80 or so million had been properly spent, it would have been halted.

SomeKloppo
2-4-12, 23:06
The awkward moment when we almost signed Lee Bowyer for 9m in 2002.

I never got it. Every time I saw him play he got sent off.

Redhead
2-4-12, 23:15
Rot continues until rectified.

Sadly Roy didnt really have funds or most likely the capabilities and Kenny wasted a great chance in January and Summer to get us back up there.

If that 80 or so million had been properly spent, it would have been halted.

It can be seen that established players are the root cause of the rot. No amount of money could rectify that unless the root cause is removed. As I said, all blamed the owners for our demise, a lot blamed Rafa, a few blamed some of the players. Well one cohort of the three still reside around Anfield, maybe they need removing for us to move on?

Liverdinner
2-4-12, 23:19
It can be seen that established players are the root cause of the rot. No amount of money could rectify that unless the root cause is removed. As I said, all blamed the owners for our demise, a lot blamed Rafa, a few blamed some of the players. Well one cohort of the three still reside around Anfield, maybe they need removing for us to move on?

I dont really agree as such tbh.

I think Rafa left us an ageing Carra and no sign of the Agger Skrtelpartnership
Aqua who didnt want to be here and wasnt adapted
A torres who wanted to leave
A Masch who wanted to leave
No great left back
No Yossi
Gerrard who was still good but ageing

All problems that needed to be fixed and could have

Jannno
2-4-12, 23:23
I dont really agree as such tbh.

I think Rafa left us an ageing Carra and no sign of the Agger Skrtelpartnership
Aqua who didnt want to be here and wasnt adapted
A torres who wanted to leave
A Masch who wanted to leave
No great left back
No Yossi
Gerrard who was still good but ageing

All problems that needed to be fixed and could have

Because of the dysfunctional nature of the place in his last 2-3 yrs here, I honestly don't believe Rafa had the power within the club to demote Carra to the bench or put Stevie where he didn't want to play.

Redhead
2-4-12, 23:25
I dont really agree as such tbh.

I think Rafa left us an ageing Carra and no sign of the Agger Skrtelpartnership
Aqua who didnt want to be here and wasnt adapted
A torres who wanted to leave
A Masch who wanted to leave
No great left back
No Yossi
Gerrard who was still good but ageing

All problems that needed to be fixed and could have

I pretty much disagree with all of that apart from the left back issue, if you are squaring the blame at Rafa

Liverdinner
2-4-12, 23:25
Because of the dysfunctional nature of the place in his last 2-3 yrs here, I honestly don't believe Rafa had the power within the club to demote Carra to the bench or put Stevie where he didn't want to play.

Perhaps, but I wouldnt imagine so.

SomeKloppo
2-4-12, 23:25
Because of the dysfunctional nature of the place in his last 2-3 yrs here, I honestly don't believe Rafa had the power within the club to demote Carra to the bench or put Stevie where he didn't want to play.

That's true. I can't believe Carra's beef with Rafa was not enough British wives.

Liverdinner
2-4-12, 23:26
I pretty much disagree with all of that apart from the left back issue, if you are squaring the blame at Rafa

I really don't know what you can disagree with. The Masch and Torres things were plain to see.

Jannno
2-4-12, 23:26
Perhaps, but I wouldnt imagine so.

What does that mean, that he could have done those things because he was the manager, as if that's all there is to it?

Liverdinner
2-4-12, 23:28
What does that mean, that he could have done those things because he was the manager, as if that's all there is to it?

Yes tbh. I reckon that Rafa could have played Skrtel and Agger more.

Not every game, but every so often at the very least.

Redhead
2-4-12, 23:33
I really don't know what you can disagree with. The Masch and Torres things were plain to see.

Read my OP, I wrote it a long time ago and my answers to this are in there

Liverdinner
2-4-12, 23:34
Read my OP, I wrote it a long time ago and my answers to this are in there

I read it. Can't see anything that suggests what I said isnt the case.

A few of those players looked unhappy in Rafas season

-SilkySkills-
2-4-12, 23:36
The awkward moment when we almost signed Lee Bowyer for 9m in 2002.

I remember seeing him rated 93 on fifa 2002 ,figo was 97 the highest

BluebirdInPeace
2-4-12, 23:38
I remember seeing him rated 93 on fifa 2002 ,figo was 97 the highest

He was only rated 93 because his tackling and aggression were rated at 300. :)

TheRiedle
2-4-12, 23:39
I remember seeing him rated 93 on fifa 2002 ,figo was 97 the highest

Bowyer-93? Hahahahahaha Fifa 02 was **** anyway.

Redhead
3-4-12, 09:40
I read it. Can't see anything that suggests what I said isnt the case.

A few of those players looked unhappy in Rafas season

Wouldn't you be if you'd been lied to by the owners promising the world in terms of player recruitment, new stadium etc when they didn't have two pennies to rub together.

SlackeryShamone
3-4-12, 09:54
Because of the dysfunctional nature of the place in his last 2-3 yrs here, I honestly don't believe Rafa had the power within the club to demote Carra to the bench or put Stevie where he didn't want to play.

Rafa was the only one that was worthy of the shirt. Stevie and Carra should have been benched Rafa's last season.

People seem to forget the **** Purslow who clearly had an agenda against Rafa. Didn't he give Hodgson a list of players he wanted gone which included Lucas?

All the clowns that are banging on about Rafa not giving Skrtel and Agger a chance are deluded. It was Rafa that offered Carra a one year extension which clearly left Carra and his best mate Stevie unhappy. Both Skrtel and Agger were bought by Rafa.

When given money, he got it right I'd say around 90% of the time.

PaddockBeanie
3-4-12, 09:59
The fans that wanted rid of rafa are no different to the charlton fans that wanted rid of curbishly all those years ago..

To not see what he was fighting against and to think our place at europes top table was something to take for granted was laughable then and sad now... What idiots.

Rafa year on year pulled rabbits out hats for us and yet fans wanted him gone. Well yeah, it's their fault, coupled with purslow, hicks and gillett... They pushed out the best man for the job by miles. Shame.

--Craig--
3-4-12, 10:02
The fans that wanted rid of rafa are no different to the charlton fans that wanted rid of curbishly all those years ago..

To not see what he was fighting against and to think our place at europes top table was something to take for granted was laughable then and sad now... What idiots.

Rafa year on year pulled rabbits out hats for us and yet fans wanted him gone. Well yeah, it's their fault, coupled with purslow, hicks and gillett... They pushed out the best man for the job by miles. Shame.


:D

Dont-Funk-With-The-Sakho
3-4-12, 10:13
I think Kenny talked about him having a contract which extended beyond his playing career into another role he might have for the club afterwards, so I don't think he'll go anywhere else.

I felt at the time that was the first time the club has officially said anything about him being anything other than a player, so I reckon Kenny has an exit strategy in mind. He has to break it to people gently over time for them to get used to the idea imo., as there'll undoubtedly be accusations of "who does he think he is getting rid of a club legend..." etc otherwise, and as I said, no manager, doesn't matter who it is, would be able to come in and do that. There would have to be instant success or it would go up in flames.

Just my view

I think Next season if we purchase correctly, Gerrard should not feature as much, he should basically become more of a squad, playing in cup games and Europa League games. I know its Harsh but look at Giggs he has not been a regular started for Utd for quiet sometime.

I think Gerrard will have more impact on the team especially in league games coming off from the bench and bringing another dimension to the game especially when we struggle against the lesser teams to get the result, he could then reclaim that Saviour status that he is well-renowned for.

Oliver89
3-4-12, 10:18
I think Next season if we purchase correctly, Gerrard should not feature as much, he should basically become more of a squad, playing in cup games and Europa League games. I know its Harsh but look at Giggs he has not been a regular started for Utd for quiet sometime.

I think Gerrard will have more impact on the team especially in league games coming off from the bench and bringing another dimension to the game especially when we struggle against the lesser teams to get the result, he could then reclaim that Saviour status that he is well-renowned for.

Giggs is 38, Gerrard's 31..

Liverdinner
3-4-12, 12:13
Wouldn't you be if you'd been lied to by the owners promising the world in terms of player recruitment, new stadium etc when they didn't have two pennies to rub together.

I would be if our team had gone from 2nd to 7th too.