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Paullfc1976
7-9-11, 13:39
Basically I am watching a guy on SSN being interviewed about the above rule; it's been in place in America since 2003, this is a quote from Wiki:


The rule is named for Dan Rooney, the owner of the Pittsburgh Steelers and the chairman of the league's diversity committee, and indirectly the Rooney family in general, due to the Steelers' long history of giving African Americans opportunities to serve in team leadership roles.

The Rule was established to ensure that minority coaches, especially African American were considered for high-level coaching positions. Until 1979, Fritz Pollard was the only minority head coach in NFL history (which was during the league's early years in the 1920s) and by the time the Rule was implemented, only Tom Flores, Art Shell, Dennis Green, Ray Rhodes, Tony Dungy, and Herman Edwards had ever held head coaching jobs (Only Dungy and Edwards were actively head coaching at the time of the Rule's implementation, though Shell and Green would later return to the sidelines as head coaches). Dungy in particular had struggled for years before getting a head coaching job; he was often promoted as a head coaching candidate by Chuck Noll when Dungy was an assistant under Noll in 1980s with the Steelers, but he would not become a head coach until 1996 when he took over the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

The Chief Executive of the PFA, Gordon Taylor has said he wants the rule to be implemented here:


Professional Footballers' Association chief executive Gordon Taylor has voiced his backing for the Rooney Rule to be implemented in English football as American lawyer Cyrus Mehri arrived in London to hold talks over the dearth of black coaches in the game.

On Tuesday, Mehri is expected to address the Football Association, Premier League, Football League and League Managers Association about the Rooney Rule - named after the owner of the Pittsburgh Steelers, Dan Rooney, and established in the NFL in 2003 - which ensures at least one black candidate is considered for a managerial vacancy.

Taylor told ESPNsoccernet: "Yes, I would like the Rooney Rule here in England, and the arrival of Cyrus Mehri will be a big boost to putting together a plan that could achieve it. Cyrus won the battle in the States to compel owners of gridiron football to interview a black candidate whenever a managerial vacancy occurred, and I would like this to happen in this country.

"Cyrus was very much the man involved in getting the Rooney Rule implemented in gridiron football. He will talk to us about the effects of having more black managers in American football and how we can achieve it here in this country.

"Let's face it, it is still very sparse the number of black managers and coaches in this country. Although we do have Chris Houghton at Birmingham and Chris Powell at Charlton, we have to make sure there is a much greater opportunity for more diversity in our game.

"The PFA has worked hard over the years with the Premier League, Football League and Mangers Association on this issue. We want more black players staying in the game and moving into coaching and management.

"We still need to maintain vigilance on respect and anti racism on the field of play, but this also needs to move forward into management and coaching. I was in Bulgaria and if there was one big disappointment it was the crowd abuse of some of England's black players.

What are people thoughts on this being implemented in the UK?

Devsan
7-9-11, 13:41
My opinion is that if you are good enough it shouldn't matter what colour race or age you are.

There'sAGoldenSky
7-9-11, 13:43
Is this the rule where one black man has to be interviewed for every vacancy? if so, it's crap

--Craig--
7-9-11, 13:44
It's ridiculous.

awol
7-9-11, 13:45
Basically I am watching a guy on SSN being interviewed about the above rule; it's been in place in America since 2003, this is a quote from Wiki:


The Chief Executive of the PFA, Gordon Taylor has said he wants the rule to be implemented here:



What are people thoughts on this being implemented in the UK?

I'm not sure if i'm reading it right, because i'm totally debilitated by man flu at the moment, but it seems to suggest that clubs should 'consider' coaches because of their ethnic backgrounds rather then just employing people based upon their ability(?)

If so then i think it is absolutely disgraceful and offensive to the clubs, the fans, and even the 'token minority' coaches it seeks to promote.

radders33
7-9-11, 13:45
I don't agree with the argument "10 years ago there were only 2 black managers, today there are only 2 black managers, so something must be done" because the only reason the 2 black managers from 10 years ago are no longer in their jobs is cause they were crap, not because they were black!

HenryGondorff
7-9-11, 13:46
Basically I am watching a guy on SSN being interviewed about the above rule; it's been in place in America since 2003, this is a quote from Wiki:


The Chief Executive of the PFA, Gordon Taylor has said he wants the rule to be implemented here:



What are people thoughts on this being implemented in the UK?

i dunno about this rule - i understand its basis but does that mean you have to hire(ok, it ony says interview) people that may not be the best person for the job - i remember a friend of mine from South Africa talking about something similar after teh Apartheid Era - they wanted a better representation of all colours and creeds in the work place but in their case it meant hiring people to be politically correct and not hiring the best candidate for the job whether they were black, green yellow or red

Paullfc1976
7-9-11, 13:48
I'm not sure if i'm reading it right, because i'm totally debilitated by man flu at the moment, but it seems to suggest that clubs should 'consider' coaches because of their ethnic backgrounds rather then just employing people based upon their ability(?)

If so then i think it is absolutely disgraceful and offensive to the clubs, the fans, and even the 'token minority' coaches it seeks to promote.

This is pretty much what I was thinking; although it seems to have worked in the US. That said: I do still wonder why there are so few black managers in the game where as black players make up a third of footballers in the Premier League and football League.

redevofc
7-9-11, 13:49
stupid rule... you should get the job on merit, not skin colour etc

I-SEE-red-PEOPLE
7-9-11, 13:52
The best candidate should always get the job. If you want to be a manager the avenues are the same for everyone, it's ability that keeps you in a job and puts offers on the table.

ceredred
7-9-11, 13:52
My opinion is that if you are good enough it shouldn't matter what colour race or age you are.Agree.

HenryGondorff
7-9-11, 13:53
............That said: I do still wonder why there are so few black managers in the game where as black players make up a third of footballers in the Premier League and football League.

i understand its basis, like i understood when a similar thing was done in South Africa, but its a delicate balancing act - but you are right in what you say - tis hard to name many managers of different cultures that aint white westerners

Swannny
7-9-11, 13:57
if your good enough, foul going to get a game. that is football

Jean-Ralphio
7-9-11, 13:58
Seems fairly pointless to introduce this to football. For other things, it may have some economic benefit, but this...? :confused:

Fowi
7-9-11, 14:00
It would be very ridiculous if you had to fill up a quota of black managers or something. If there is a problem with racism, i.e. black coaches not getting a chance, then this is the issue that has to be targeted and it can't be solved by forcing a certain number of black managers.

Frankly I don't see it as a problem. I see no black manager that is trying to find work, but isn't able to.

awol
7-9-11, 14:02
This is pretty much what I was thinking; although it seems to have worked in the US. That said: I do still wonder why there are so few black managers in the game where as black players make up a third of footballers in the Premier League and football League.

I havent thought about it before, but sitting here thinking of black managers I realised that there arent actually that many i guess.

I suppose part of it is that racial equality is a relatively new concept. By that i mean the days of blacks or etnic minorities being treated lesds favourably are not as far in the past as they feel. I dont know at what point you would say that attitude 'ended' (i know arguably it hasnt amongst an ignorant foolish minority but i'm talking about mainstream attitudes of what is and isnt acceptable) but perhaps it takes time for equality to show. For example if we say that many coaches learn their trade following sucessful playing careers, take your figure that around 1/3 of the current players are black, then we should expect perhaps to see 1/3 of the coaches being black in (say) 15-20 years time?

I dont see how 'making' clubs 'interview' a token candidate from specific backgrounds helps anyone, but then again in my eyes 'positive discrimination' is nearly always as bad as the discrimination it seeks to correct anyway.

Scrams
7-9-11, 14:04
It's surprising that we only have 2 black managers in the entire league, especially in the UK where there are black people with good positions in a number of other sports and business corporations.

It's either prejudice or they're not good enough or maybe its not a job of interest within the black community. The rule though seems rather patronising and wouldnt change the bigger picture.

Klopp-Notch
7-9-11, 14:04
My opinion is that if you are good enough it shouldn't matter what colour race or age you are.

Exactly my thoughts too. Forcing clubs into interviewing somebody based on ethnicity is wrong, what if a black manager doesn't apply for a managerial position? would the club be in breach of this rule? should be based purely on footballing bases.

19-UNDER-[B-ROD]
7-9-11, 14:05
Terrible rule...black, white, yellow,green, or red, it doesn't matter. If your qualified and your good enough, you'll find a job.

Quite frankly, I didn't think there was a problem with this these, particularly in English football.

Fowi
7-9-11, 14:05
It's surprising that we only have 2 black managers in the entire league, especially in the UK where there are black people with good positions in a number of other sports and business corporations.

It's either prejudice or they're not good enough or maybe its not a job of interest within the black community. The rule though seems rather patronising and wouldnt change the bigger picture.

Which black manager is actually trying to get in? Ince had no problems getting in. Barnes didn't either. He had no clue how to manage a football team and then played the race card.

Scrams
7-9-11, 14:10
Which black manager is actually trying to get in? Ince had no problems getting in. Barnes didn't either. He had no clue how to manage a football team and then played the race card.

None of us know or will know how many black managers apply for managerial jobs but that wasnt my point. Im not calling injustice.

My point was that it's a surprising stat for the UK, where so many coaches, especially in London, at grass root level are black.

Why is it that the majority of black managers are ex footballers? whereas there are a plethora of European coaches who havent played the game at the highest level. Its just an interesting issue.

Fowi
7-9-11, 14:12
None of us know or will know how many black managers apply for managerial jobs but that wasnt my point. Im not calling injustice.

My point was that it's a surprising stat for the UK, where so many coaches, especially in London, at grass root level are black.

Why is it that the majority of black managers are ex footballers? whereas there are a plethora of European coaches who havent played the game at the highest level. Its just an interesting issue.

I don't know. Maybe black people don't want to coach as much as white people. And there is really not that many coaches who haven't played at the highest level. The few there are come from countries where a grand majority of population is white so if such a country is gonna produce a non playing coach it's highly likely to be a white guy.

Bombay Money Lender
7-9-11, 14:15
I don't agree with the argument "10 years ago there were only 2 black managers, today there are only 2 black managers, so something must be done" because the only reason the 2 black managers from 10 years ago are no longer in their jobs is cause they were crap, not because they were black!

Do you agree with this argument "10 years ago black players were being abused from the terraces; today, black players are being abused from the terraces so something must be done"?

I use this as reference because there is such a thing as institutional racism and as most Premier and Championship clubs are owned by either white or Arab owners and have been since time immemorial there has never been the climate for young black managers to thrive. To also state that the only reason two black managers are no longer in their job is because they are 'crap' is crass and ill informed.

SotoSpeakinGreeks
7-9-11, 14:16
stupid rule... you should get the job on merit, not skin colour etc

Its not about getting the job, its about getting a look at the job. There are positives and negatives.

When the Steelers had a vacancy at coach a few years back they interviewed 3 candidates, two white and one minority. The minority was thought to be a long shot but was eventually hired. In four years he had one championship and another appearance in the final.

Scrams
7-9-11, 14:17
I don't know. Maybe black people don't want to coach as much as white people. And there is really not that many coaches who haven't played at the highest level. The few there are come from countries where a grand majority of population is white so if such a country is gonna produce a non playing coach it's highly likely to be a white guy.

I did make that point but at the end of the day 2 out of 92, in a country of diverse culture like the UK, is very surprising.

The situation with a lack of black managers has been stagnant for a very long time.

Fowi
7-9-11, 14:18
Its not about getting the job, its about getting a look at the job. There are positives and negatives.

When the Steelers had a vacancy at coach a few years back they interviewed 3 candidates, two white and one minority. The minority was thought to be a long shot but was eventually hired. In four years he had one championship and another appearance in the final.

What does that actually solve? If someone doesn't want to appoint a black coach having him in for a fake interview won't change that.

The only way to fix this in football, if there indeed is a problem, is to fix world racism. Any day now.

Fowi
7-9-11, 14:22
I did make that point but at the end of the day 2 out of 92, in a country of diverse culture like the UK, is very surprising.

The situation with a lack of black managers has been stagnant for a very long time.

2.2% of managers in England's top 4 leagues are black. If I'm not mistaken 2% of the population in England are black. So there is no problem it seems.

Bombay Money Lender
7-9-11, 14:24
What does that actually solve? If someone doesn't want to appoint a black coach having him in for a fake interview won't change that.

The only way to fix this in football, if there indeed is a problem, is to fix world racism. Any day now.

Oh yeah, great idea. "Not my problem". When black players are still abused from the terraces and not just abroad, I have highlighted one of your more stupid comments though they are littered throughout this thread

Jean-Ralphio
7-9-11, 14:24
2.2% of managers in England's top 4 leagues are black. If I'm not mistaken 2% of the population in England are black. So there is no problem it seems.

We want more! :mad:

Fowi
7-9-11, 14:25
Oh yeah, great idea. "Not my problem". When black players are still abused from the terraces and not just abroad, I have highlighted one of your more stupid comments though they are littered throughout this thread

What are you talking about?

Jean-Ralphio
7-9-11, 14:26
Oh yeah, great idea. "Not my problem". When black players are still abused from the terraces and not just abroad, I have highlighted one of your more stupid comments though they are littered throughout this thread

I don't see how the two situations are relevant to each other.
More black managers are going to completely fix what is essentially a deep-rooted social problem?

SotoSpeakinGreeks
7-9-11, 14:27
What does that actually solve? If someone doesn't want to appoint a black coach having him in for a fake interview won't change that.

The only way to fix this in football, if there indeed is a problem, is to fix world racism. Any day now.

The rule was created by recognizing there are biases in place that prevent minority coaches from getting LOOKS. Obviously the best person for the job should be hired period. But since there are indisputedly prejudices that exist (in the NFL, can't really speak that well about the EPL), the rule combats those prejudices. Also I agree that the rule can be patronising to candidates who are only interviewed to fulfill the requirement but this process also helps them gain valuable experience to prepare themselves for the next vacancy.

Paullfc1976
7-9-11, 14:27
2.2% of managers in England's top 4 leagues are black. If I'm not mistaken 2% of the population in England are black. So there is no problem it seems.

It's about 3% of the population, but the disparity lies within the fact that whilst they've been a large amount of black footballers in the last 30 years, so very few go on to be managers.

I am not saying I agree with the rule, I am just wondering.

Bombay Money Lender
7-9-11, 14:29
2.2% of managers in England's top 4 leagues are black. If I'm not mistaken 2% of the population in England are black. So there is no problem it seems.

We are talking about the football Industry. Another crass, ill informed post bordering on something far more sinister

radders33
7-9-11, 14:30
Do you agree with this argument "10 years ago black players were being abused from the terraces; today, black players are being abused from the terraces so something must be done"?

I use this as reference because there is such a thing as institutional racism and as most Premier and Championship clubs are owned by either white or Arab owners and have been since time immemorial there has never been the climate for young black managers to thrive. To also state that the only reason two black managers are no longer in their job is because they are 'crap' is crass and ill informed.

If black players are being abused today then of course something must be done, regardless of whether it was happening 10 years ago or not - that's almost irrelevant.

Young black managers can thrive if they are good enough at their job. The likes of Ruud Gullit and Jean Tigana were considered relatively successful managers when they were winning matches, but then started to fail and as a result they got sacked. The fact that they haven't been re-employed in England is due to the fact that they weren't considered successful, not because white/Arab owners don't want to appoint a black man.

smokintony
7-9-11, 14:31
stupid rule... you should get the job on merit, not skin colour etc

But thats not always the case, saying that that rule is stupid, there must be other ways to ensure equality

Scrams
7-9-11, 14:31
2.2% of managers in England's top 4 leagues are black. If I'm not mistaken 2% of the population in England are black. So there is no problem it seems.

What's the percentage of black players in the top 4 leagues? We can find a healthy percentage of players, but only 2.2% of managers, very strange statistics in my eyes.

LiverpoolOne
7-9-11, 14:32
Not a fan of positive discrimination and token gestures, and would rather see football work harder at creating the environment where all have an equal chance to learn and progress within the game.

More work at grass roots encouraging as wide a representation as possible amongst those going on coaching badges is needed. There is also a need for role models for younger people to aspire too (these may be from outside of football but advocating coaching as a profession)

It would be interesting to see stats for the number of professional black and ethnic players within the English game that go on to do their coaching badges and what success they currently have in gaining coaching positions.

I have done limited work in places like Birmingham and Clapham, London and I know there are many many excellent coaches of black and ethnic origin working at grass roots level. There does however need to be pathways for these guys to progress within the game and it is here the FA need to be doing more work. Lots of old school and old school thinking still within the FA.

Fowi
7-9-11, 14:32
The rule was created by recognizing there are biases in place that prevent minority coaches from getting LOOKS. Obviously the best person for the job should be hired period. But since there are indisputedly prejudices that exist (in the NFL, can't really speak that well about the EPL), the rule combats those prejudices. Also I agree that the rule can be patronising to candidates who are only interviewed to fulfill the requirement but this process also helps them gain valuable experience to prepare themselves for the next vacancy.

I just don't see what it would fix. If the premise is that black managers are being binned because of the skin of their colour then them acquiring more job interview experience isn't gonna help as they weren't deemed on their merits to begin with.

It's very simple. If you have a racist owner/chairman he will not employ a black manager unless he is absolutely forced by law, which this doesn't seem to be. And if the owner/chairman isn't racist he will probably employ the best man for the job.


It's about 3% of the population, but the disparity lies within the fact that whilst they've been a large amount of black footballers in the last 30 years, so very few go on to be managers.

I am not saying I agree with the rule, I am just wondering.

Maybe the white people spend their time drawing up formations and charts while black people prefer to party and have sex. I.e. not be geeks.

CharlieManson
7-9-11, 14:32
I couldnt care less, Its still highlighting differences between race, The rule shouldnt even exist as far as im concerned, We are all the same, Although some are a little bit crazier than others it must be said. :)

Paullfc1976
7-9-11, 14:33
If black players are being abused today then of course something must be done, regardless of whether it was happening 10 years ago or not - that's almost irrelevant.

Young black managers can thrive if they are good enough at their job. The likes of Ruud Gullit and Jean Tigana were considered relatively successful managers when they were winning matches, but then started to fail and as a result they got sacked. The fact that they haven't been re-employed in England is due to the fact that they weren't considered successful, not because white/Arab owners don't want to appoint a black man.

It's not down to the clubs then, maybe.

We could be looking at a more fundamental problems within the mentally of former black players who don't feel they've got what it takes to go into coaching/management.

Bombay Money Lender
7-9-11, 14:33
I don't see how the two situations are relevant to each other.
More black managers are going to completely fix what is essentially a deep-rooted social problem?

I am not saying that am I? Do me a favour. I'm responding to a poster who doubts whether there is a problem of institutional racism in football when all the evidence says otherwise. The lack of decent young black managers is a by product of that.

Fowi
7-9-11, 14:33
We are talking about the football Industry. Another crass, ill informed post bordering on something far more sinister

I have no idea what you're saying, but you're going off the rail here so lets call it a day.

NeggedNuTs
7-9-11, 14:33
What are people thoughts on this being implemented in the UK?

quality over skincolor

Scrams
7-9-11, 14:35
Maybe the white people spend their time drawing up formations and charts while black people prefer to party and have sex. I.e. not be geeks

:FP: What a silly thing to say.

Bombay Money Lender
7-9-11, 14:36
Not a fan of positive discrimination and token gestures, and would rather see football work harder at creating the environment where all have an equal chance to learn and progress within the game.

More work at grass roots encouraging as wide a representation as possible amongst those going on coaching badges is needed. There is also a need for role models for younger people to aspire too (these may be from outside of football but advocating coaching as a profession)

It would be interesting to see stats for the number of professional black and ethnic players within the English game that go on to do their coaching badges and what success they currently have in gaining coaching positions.

I have done limited work in places like Birmingham and Clapham, London and I know there are many many excellent coaches of black and ethnic origin working at grass roots level. There does however need to be pathways for these guys to progress within the game and it is here the FA need to be doing more work. Lots of old school and old school thinking still within the FA.

Far more eloquently put than I could muster and absolutely spot on.

ceredred
7-9-11, 14:37
There are to many Scottish managers in the premier league what's to be done about that.

Paullfc1976
7-9-11, 14:37
Not a fan of positive discrimination and token gestures, and would rather see football work harder at creating the environment where all have an equal chance to learn and progress within the game.

More work at grass roots encouraging as wide a representation as possible amongst those going on coaching badges is needed. There is also a need for role models for younger people to aspire too (these may be from outside of football but advocating coaching as a profession)

It would be interesting to see stats for the number of professional black and ethnic players within the English game that go on to do their coaching badges and what success they currently have in gaining coaching positions.

I have done limited work in places like Birmingham and Clapham, London and I know there are many many excellent coaches of black and ethnic origin working at grass roots level. There does however need to be pathways for these guys to progress within the game and it is here the FA need to be doing more work. Lots of old school and old school thinking still within the FA.

A very well thought out post, duly repped.

Bombay Money Lender
7-9-11, 14:38
I have no idea what you're saying, but you're going off the rail here so lets call it a day.

No, I'm on the rails you're on the ropes. Jog on.

Fowi
7-9-11, 14:39
There are to many Scottish managers in the premier league what's to be done about that.

30% of the managers in the Premier League are Scottish. I'm pretty sure not 30% of the Premier League players are Scottish. The solution is to sack a few of the managers. Otherwise we're talking about a serious problem here.

Scrams
7-9-11, 14:39
quality over skincolor

So all white coaches, bar two out of 92, have more mangerial quality than black ones?

That's what the stats suggest in terms of quality, do you agree with this?

radders33
7-9-11, 14:39
It's not down to the clubs then, maybe.

We could be looking at a more fundamental problems within the mentally of former black players who don't feel they've got what it takes to go into coaching/management.

Possibly - but is the best solution to "force" owners to interview black people for a manager's job? I don't think so really.

CharlieManson
7-9-11, 14:40
30% of the managers in the Premier League are Scottish. I'm pretty sure not 30% of the Premier League players are Scottish. The solution is to sack a few of the managers. Otherwise we're talking about a serious problem here.

Or leave everything as it is and stop messing with things that dont matter -


I can also see this thread getting out of hand -


I for one dont care about there not being many black managers in world football - I didnt even notice until right now and i still dont give a **** -


Im sure if an african coach appeared and won the CL with a small portugese club for instance, he would get due credit - Just making a problem out of nothing these americans and the sheep are following. -

Fowi
7-9-11, 14:40
Or leave everything as it is and stop messing with things that dont matter -

I am for that one, but people disagree. There seems to be a problem that when Jason Euell retires he wont be allowed to manage in the Premier League on the account of him being black.

Scrams
7-9-11, 14:40
There are to many Scottish managers in the premier league what's to be done about that.

The last time I checked, most scots were white.

Paullfc1976
7-9-11, 14:42
Possibly - but is the best solution to "force" owners to interview black people for a manager's job? I don't think so really.

It's probably not a good idea to "force" chairmen to interview potential black managers; however it seems that the rule has worked in America, not that I'm an expert on the NFL.

SotoSpeakinGreeks
7-9-11, 14:42
quality over skincolor

This much is obvious. Nobody is promising any black coaches jobs with this rule. This rule is more about fighting the perception that black coaches can't cut it. And this is not to say owners outwardly state they feel black coaches aren't as good. It is a perception that exists (not in all but many) whether people acknowledge it or not.

Bombay Money Lender
7-9-11, 14:44
Or leave everything as it is and stop messing with things that dont matter -


I can also see this thread getting out of hand -


I for one dont care about there not being many black managers in world football - I didnt even notice until right now and i still dont give a **** -


Im sure if an african coach appeared and won the CL with a small portugese club for instance, he would get due credit - Just making a problem out of nothing these americans and the sheep are following. -

So why are you posting in this thread?

CharlieManson
7-9-11, 14:44
I am for that one, but people disagree. There seems to be a problem that when Jason Euell retires he wont be allowed to manage in the Premier League on the account of him being black.

Who ?

ceredred
7-9-11, 14:45
The last time I checked, most scots were white.So what has skin colour got to do with it, there still Scot's and keeping English managers from the top jobs in an English league.

You see how twisted the debate can become.

You get the top jobs on merit in football nothing else.

Paullfc1976
7-9-11, 14:45
Who ?

You don't know what that is?

Or are you being facetious?

LiverpoolOne
7-9-11, 14:46
Video of FA 'COACH' initiative launch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GX0va3p1P2s

and trailer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjK9xgTsQs4

Fowi
7-9-11, 14:47
I'd still like to see proof of this massive interesting among black people to get into coaching. I'd also like to see anybody but Barnes complaining about it.

Scrams
7-9-11, 14:48
And i quote

"Staffordshire University academics recently polled 1,000 fans, players, referees and officials. More than 50% thought racism existed in club boardrooms, while 82% said managers were given jobs based on their reputation in the media."

In June 2008, Ince was the first black manager in the Premier League. Ince who played with Keane for Utd and Southgate for England had to start his career at Macclesfield but the other two started at a higher level with Boro and Sunderland.

CharlieManson
7-9-11, 14:49
You don't know what that is?

Or are you being facetious?

I have heard of the player, yes, I have no knowledge of his career or anything else though.

SotoSpeakinGreeks
7-9-11, 14:49
I'd still like to see proof of this massive interesting among black people to get into coaching. I'd also like to see anybody but Barnes complaining about it.

It is possible they do not actively pursue coaching because of limited opportunities in the past.

I have gone back and forth on the rule. I can tell you this the number of black coaches in the NFL have risen since this rule they have done quite well.

Scrams
7-9-11, 14:50
So what has skin colour got to do with it, there still Scot's and keeping English managers from the top jobs in an English league.

You see how twisted the debate can become.

You get the top jobs on merit in football nothing else.

Is black not a skin colour?

The issue is black managers not getting a chance, not foreign managers keeping English mangers from top jobs.

Thats a different debate altogether but im sure if the English managers complained, people will take note and listen. However when a black manager complains, (Ince,Barnes) They are accused of throwing the race card.

CharlieManson
7-9-11, 14:52
It is possible they do not actively pursue coaching because of limited opportunities in the past.

I have gone back and forth on the rule. I can tell you this the number of black coaches in the NFL have risen since this rule they have done quite well.

Thats NFL - Im sure all the teams in England are happy with their managers and unlikely to be craving for a "Coach of African descent" - Just another joke debacle to **** things up.

muaddibalonso
7-9-11, 14:52
My opinion is that if you are good enough it shouldn't matter what colour race or age you are.

Sadly this isn't the case...

Bombay Money Lender
7-9-11, 14:53
So what has skin colour got to do with it, there still Scot's and keeping English managers from the top jobs in an English league.

You see how twisted the debate can become.

You get the top jobs on merit in football nothing else.

You've really twisted things around there. The thread is about the Rooney rule if I'm not mistaken and the impact it may have in football here if it was implemented. We are talking about young black managers actually getting in the frame for jobs in the first place, not positive discrimination. I made a further point about institutional racism in the game and always has been as in other institutions like the Police, Government etc and whether this might help expose that in some way. I have to say I have been surprised by the negativity regarding this and some of the crass comments could be construed as 'racist', a term I am loathe to use but apt here I think. As a moderator do you concur?

CharlieManson
7-9-11, 14:53
Is black not a skin colour?

The issue is black managers not getting a chance, not foreign managers keeping English mangers from top jobs.

Thats a different debate altogether.

so it comes down to skin colour in the end, what a ****** joke -

Scrams
7-9-11, 14:54
You've really twisted things around there. The thread is about the Rooney rule if I'm not mistaken and the impact it may have in football here if it was implemented. We are talking about young black managers actually getting in the frame for jobs in the first place, not positive discrimination. I made a further point about institutional racism in the game and always has been as in other institutions like the Police, Government etc and whether this might help expose that in some way. I have to say I have been surprised by the negativity regarding this and some of the crass comments could be construed as 'racist', a term I am loathe to use but apt here I think. As a moderator do you concur?

Agreed.

domino
7-9-11, 14:54
Frankly I don't see it as a problem. I see no black manager that is trying to find work, but isn't able to.

John Barnes

SotoSpeakinGreeks
7-9-11, 14:54
Thats NFL - Im sure all the teams in England are happy with their managers and unlikely to be craving for a "Coach of African descent" - Just another joke debacle to **** things up.

Arsenal fans?

Euro-77-78-81-84-05
7-9-11, 14:54
It's ridiculous. Why stop at colour, there's no female managers, there's no homosexual managers.

The FA could give their backing to it, but then have they not said, the next England Manager will be English. Now is that not racist. Oh your a not English so you can't have the job.


If you are good enough you would get it, will not matter what race, nationality, gender, sexual perferences etc there is.


If they have to interview x amount of gays, females, black people, overseas people etc, or give positions to y amount, it would lead to more problems then solutions. Everyone would say oh you only got the job because you are a black lesbian from Mars. The person being intreviwed, or given the job, would not be sure if they are getting it on ability, or on equal oppotunties, so would lose self confidence. They may actually be the best person, but think they only got it because they are black or gay and will not believe their own abiity. They would have to work extra hard to prove to everyone they got the job on merit, and not on race, gender or nationality.

Oh we must employ at least five black females who are not English. People will see one of the five employed, and think she only got it because she is a woman, he only got it because he is black, and it maybe not be true at all, they may have got the job regardless of the rule, but people will end up thinking otherwise.


We hear how it's good there's so many Scotish Managers in the top flight and good how the majority of managers are British, that could be considered racist. Reminds me when England supporters got a DVD of the best 10 English players of all time, and people complained all the players were white, so the DVD had to be re released and the list edited so that black players could be on the list. Now how would you feel if you was not on the original DVD and included on the edited one, I think some of the players added, said they didn't want to be and there was nothing wrong with the original DVD.


If it's equal oppotunites, then it should be EQUAL.

If people want a minimum amount of not white, homosexual, female, overseas etc people to be interviewed, or be to given a job, then surely to be EQUAL, they should agree a minimum number of hetrosexual white English men should get jobs and be interviewed. But if a company said there's two positions to fill, we are giving one to a white English hetrosexual man, they would rightly be accused of sexism, homophobic and racism.


Say you had to interview for a position, only five people can be interviewed, twenty apply. Out of the twenty, only one of the applicants is black and if you put the aplicants in a list based on qualifciations for the job, he would be seventh. There's two females who've applied, one is eleventh based on qualifications and experience, the other eighteenth, and only one person who applied has said they are homosexual, yet they have no experience of the job and lack most of the qualifications. Would it be fair to interview them, when they are not suitabally qualified and have less experience then some who will miss out on the job. Could be used the other way too.

Say you have one position to fill, only three people apply, and you have to narrow the list down to two. Two of the candidates are black, and both have ten years experience of the role they are applying for, and meet all of the qualifications, the only difference is one of them worked for you in the past but in a different position. The other candiate, only has two years experience of the role, has not been in employment for three years and only meets ninty percent of the qualifications, and he is white. Which two candidates do you interview.


You should not be interviewed or given a job based on race, sexual perference, gender or nationality. It should be on quality and to an extent experience, but you can't get expereience without getting a job.


If our managerial vacancy became available, I would want the best person for the job, as would many others. If it comes down to Jose Mourinho or Paul Ince, I would want Mourinho. If it came down to Frank Rijkaard or Big Sam, I would want Rijkaard.

If aliens arrived from Mars, and one of them took over a team in Spain that wasn't Barcelona or Real Madrid and won the league, and then it applied for the managerial job here should it become vacant, and the other candidate was Harry Redknapp, I would want the alien.


Instead of looking how many managers out of the 92 are not black, let's look at when the other 90 were all appointed, who the other candiates at the time were, and who else applied for the job, then see if the right man got the job. Man Utd gave the job to the right person, Arsenal did, Norwich two promotions in a row did, Peterborough did as he got them promoted, and in his last spell got them promoted twice in a row, AFC Wimbledon did as he has got them promoted a few times. That's 5 out of 90, different ends of the league, or different divisions.


Interviews and jobs should go to the best person. Equal oppotunities must work both ways. When you fill out a form it always asks for your race, why. Why should it matter.

Scrams
7-9-11, 14:55
so it comes down to skin colour in the end, what a ****** joke -

:FP:

Do you not know what the Rooney rule is. This is what we are debating, a lack of black managers at the highest level so of course we're talking about skin colour.

Fowi
7-9-11, 14:56
John Barnes

He has managed Celtic and Tranmere. And based on his competence he shouldn't have managed either. So before he talks about not getting the jobs because of being black he should consider that he didn't get the job at either Celtic or Tranmere based on his competence, but because he's a famous name.

CharlieManson
7-9-11, 14:57
It's ridiculous. Why stop at colour, there's no female managers, there's no homosexual managers.

The FA could give their backing to it, but then have they not said, the next England Manager will be English. Now is that not racist. Oh your a not English so you can't have the job.


If you are good enough you would get it, will not matter what race, nationality, gender, sexual perferences etc there is.


If they have to interview x amount of gays, females, black people, overseas people etc, or give positions to y amount, it would lead to more problems then solutions. Everyone would say oh you only got the job because you are a black lesbian from Mars. The person being intreviwed, or given the job, would not be sure if they are getting it on ability, or on equal oppotunties, so would lose self confidence. They may actually be the best person, but think they only got it because they are black or gay and will not believe their own abiity. They would have to work extra hard to prove to everyone they got the job on merit, and not on race, gender or nationality.

Oh we must employ at least five black females who are not English. People will see one of the five employed, and think she only got it because she is a woman, he only got it because he is black, and it maybe not be true at all, they may have got the job regardless of the rule, but people will end up thinking otherwise.


We hear how it's good there's so many Scotish Managers in the top flight and good how the majority of managers are British, that could be considered racist. Reminds me when England supporters got a DVD of the best 10 English players of all time, and people complained all the players were white, so the DVD had to be re released and the list edited so that black players could be on the list. Now how would you feel if you was not on the original DVD and included on the edited one, I think some of the players added, said they didn't want to be and there was nothing wrong with the original DVD.


If it's equal oppotunites, then it should be EQUAL.

If people want a minimum amount of not white, homosexual, female, overseas etc people to be interviewed, or be to given a job, then surely to be EQUAL, they should agree a minimum number of hetrosexual white English men should get jobs and be interviewed. But if a company said there's two positions to fill, we are giving one to a white English hetrosexual man, they would rightly be accused of sexism, homophobic and racism.


Say you had to interview for a position, only five people can be interviewed, twenty apply. Out of the twenty, only one of the applicants is black and if you put the aplicants in a list based on qualifciations for the job, he would be seventh. There's two females who've applied, one is eleventh based on qualifications and experience, the other eighteenth, and only one person who applied has said they are homosexual, yet they have no experience of the job and lack most of the qualifications. Would it be fair to interview them, when they are not suitabally qualified and have less experience then some who will miss out on the job. Could be used the other way too.

Say you have one position to fill, only three people apply, and you have to narrow the list down to two. Two of the candidates are black, and both have ten years experience of the role they are applying for, and meet all of the qualifications, the only difference is one of them worked for you in the past but in a different position. The other candiate, only has two years experience of the role, has not been in employment for three years and only meets ninty percent of the qualifications, and he is white. Which two candidates do you interview.


You should not be interviewed or given a job based on race, sexual perference, gender or nationality. It should be on quality and to an extent experience, but you can't get expereience without getting a job.


If our managerial vacancy became available, I would want the best person for the job, as would many others. If it comes down to Jose Mourinho or Paul Ince, I would want Mourinho. If it came down to Frank Rijkaard or Big Sam, I would want Rijkaard.

If aliens arrived from Mars, and one of them took over a team in Spain that wasn't Barcelona or Real Madrid and won the league, and then it applied for the managerial job here should it become vacant, and the other candidate was Harry Redknapp, I would want the alien.


Instead of looking how many managers out of the 92 are not black, let's look at when the other 90 were all appointed, who the other candiates at the time were, and who else applied for the job, then see if the right man got the job. Man Utd gave the job to the right person, Arsenal did, Norwich two promotions in a row did, Peterborough did as he got them promoted, and in his last spell got them promoted twice in a row, AFC Wimbledon did as he has got them promoted a few times. That's 5 out of 90, different ends of the league, or different divisions.


Interviews and jobs should go to the best person. Equal oppotunities must work both ways. When you fill out a form it always asks for your race, why. Why should it matter.

I can see us winning the Champions league and Fa Cup in 2016 managed by Dalglish in high heels and a wig just to comply with the new "equal opportunities" rules.

Jean-Ralphio
7-9-11, 14:58
I am not saying that am I? Do me a favour. I'm responding to a poster who doubts whether there is a problem of institutional racism in football when all the evidence says otherwise. The lack of decent young black managers is a by product of that.

If you're going infer what another poster is saying, I don't see how you can complain when I do that to you?
...and no, that is highly debateable. Could quite as easily be as much a cultural thing. With any career that has a minority of a certain group, pursuing a career in it either;

Won't seem viable.
Will simply go unconsidered.

I actually don't have a problem with this rule, it's only an interview. If it encourages more black people to go into management regardless of whether they are successful, it can only be a good thing.

CharlieManson
7-9-11, 14:58
:FP:

Do you not know what the Rooney rule is. This is what we are debating, a lack of black managers at the highest level so of course we're talking about skin colour.

I couldnt care less mate, I am not a racist - I dont care for this nonsence.

domino
7-9-11, 15:00
He has managed Celtic and Tranmere. And based on his competence he shouldn't have managed either. So before he talks about not getting the jobs because of being black he should consider that he didn't get the job at either Celtic or Tranmere based on his competence, but because he's a famous name.

It wasn't just him who flopped managing Celtic, Kenny as well. He also didn't get much time at Tranmere, neither did Ince at Blackburn.

Scrams
7-9-11, 15:00
It's ridiculous. Why stop at colour, there's no female managers, there's no homosexual managers.The FA could give their backing to it, but then have they not said, the next England Manager will be English. Now is that not racist. Oh your a not English so you can't have the job.


If you are good enough you would get it, will not matter what race, nationality, gender, sexual perferences etc there is.


If they have to interview x amount of gays, females, black people, overseas people etc, or give positions to y amount, it would lead to more problems then solutions. Everyone would say oh you only got the job because you are a black lesbian from Mars. The person being intreviwed, or given the job, would not be sure if they are getting it on ability, or on equal oppotunties, so would lose self confidence. They may actually be the best person, but think they only got it because they are black or gay and will not believe their own abiity. They would have to work extra hard to prove to everyone they got the job on merit, and not on race, gender or nationality.

Oh we must employ at least five black females who are not English. People will see one of the five employed, and think she only got it because she is a woman, he only got it because he is black, and it maybe not be true at all, they may have got the job regardless of the rule, but people will end up thinking otherwise.


We hear how it's good there's so many Scotish Managers in the top flight and good how the majority of managers are British, that could be considered racist. Reminds me when England supporters got a DVD of the best 10 English players of all time, and people complained all the players were white, so the DVD had to be re released and the list edited so that black players could be on the list. Now how would you feel if you was not on the original DVD and included on the edited one, I think some of the players added, said they didn't want to be and there was nothing wrong with the original DVD.


If it's equal oppotunites, then it should be EQUAL.

If people want a minimum amount of not white, homosexual, female, overseas etc people to be interviewed, or be to given a job, then surely to be EQUAL, they should agree a minimum number of hetrosexual white English men should get jobs and be interviewed. But if a company said there's two positions to fill, we are giving one to a white English hetrosexual man, they would rightly be accused of sexism, homophobic and racism.


Say you had to interview for a position, only five people can be interviewed, twenty apply. Out of the twenty, only one of the applicants is black and if you put the aplicants in a list based on qualifciations for the job, he would be seventh. There's two females who've applied, one is eleventh based on qualifications and experience, the other eighteenth, and only one person who applied has said they are homosexual, yet they have no experience of the job and lack most of the qualifications. Would it be fair to interview them, when they are not suitabally qualified and have less experience then some who will miss out on the job. Could be used the other way too.

Say you have one position to fill, only three people apply, and you have to narrow the list down to two. Two of the candidates are black, and both have ten years experience of the role they are applying for, and meet all of the qualifications, the only difference is one of them worked for you in the past but in a different position. The other candiate, only has two years experience of the role, has not been in employment for three years and only meets ninty percent of the qualifications, and he is white. Which two candidates do you interview.


You should not be interviewed or given a job based on race, sexual perference, gender or nationality. It should be on quality and to an extent experience, but you can't get expereience without getting a job.


If our managerial vacancy became available, I would want the best person for the job, as would many others. If it comes down to Jose Mourinho or Paul Ince, I would want Mourinho. If it came down to Frank Rijkaard or Big Sam, I would want Rijkaard.

If aliens arrived from Mars, and one of them took over a team in Spain that wasn't Barcelona or Real Madrid and won the league, and then it applied for the managerial job here should it become vacant, and the other candidate was Harry Redknapp, I would want the alien.


Instead of looking how many managers out of the 92 are not black, let's look at when the other 90 were all appointed, who the other candiates at the time were, and who else applied for the job, then see if the right man got the job. Man Utd gave the job to the right person, Arsenal did, Norwich two promotions in a row did, Peterborough did as he got them promoted, and in his last spell got them promoted twice in a row, AFC Wimbledon did as he has got them promoted a few times. That's 5 out of 90, different ends of the league, or different divisions.


Interviews and jobs should go to the best person. Equal oppotunities must work both ways. When you fill out a form it always asks for your race, why. Why should it matter.

How do you know? Just because some people aint open with their sexuality doesnt mean there aint no gay managers.

All the issues you stated can be debated about as well, im sure a lot of people feel strongly about them, but why does everybody bring in other issues whenever a debate is about possible prejudice?

TeenageMutantNinJaSkrtel
7-9-11, 15:00
If you put somebody in a position for the simple reason that there are not enough black managers, then when things go wrong, there will actually be more focus on it and it will make it harder for black people in the future to follow in the same path simply becuase of the 'We tried that' mentality.

Ad_Rock
7-9-11, 15:01
No Muslim managers, no female managers, no wheelchair bound managers, Chinese managers, no Indian managers.

That will be one long interview process.

Paullfc1976
7-9-11, 15:01
It's ridiculous. Why stop at colour, there's no female managers, there's no homosexual managers.

The FA could give their backing to it, but then have they not said, the next England Manager will be English. Now is that not racist. Oh your a not English so you can't have the job.


If you are good enough you would get it, will not matter what race, nationality, gender, sexual perferences etc there is.


If they have to interview x amount of gays, females, black people, overseas people etc, or give positions to y amount, it would lead to more problems then solutions. Everyone would say oh you only got the job because you are a black lesbian from Mars. The person being intreviwed, or given the job, would not be sure if they are getting it on ability, or on equal oppotunties, so would lose self confidence. They may actually be the best person, but think they only got it because they are black or gay and will not believe their own abiity. They would have to work extra hard to prove to everyone they got the job on merit, and not on race, gender or nationality.

Oh we must employ at least five black females who are not English. People will see one of the five employed, and think she only got it because she is a woman, he only got it because he is black, and it maybe not be true at all, they may have got the job regardless of the rule, but people will end up thinking otherwise.


We hear how it's good there's so many Scotish Managers in the top flight and good how the majority of managers are British, that could be considered racist. Reminds me when England supporters got a DVD of the best 10 English players of all time, and people complained all the players were white, so the DVD had to be re released and the list edited so that black players could be on the list. Now how would you feel if you was not on the original DVD and included on the edited one, I think some of the players added, said they didn't want to be and there was nothing wrong with the original DVD.


If it's equal oppotunites, then it should be EQUAL.

If people want a minimum amount of not white, homosexual, female, overseas etc people to be interviewed, or be to given a job, then surely to be EQUAL, they should agree a minimum number of hetrosexual white English men should get jobs and be interviewed. But if a company said there's two positions to fill, we are giving one to a white English hetrosexual man, they would rightly be accused of sexism, homophobic and racism.


Say you had to interview for a position, only five people can be interviewed, twenty apply. Out of the twenty, only one of the applicants is black and if you put the aplicants in a list based on qualifciations for the job, he would be seventh. There's two females who've applied, one is eleventh based on qualifications and experience, the other eighteenth, and only one person who applied has said they are homosexual, yet they have no experience of the job and lack most of the qualifications. Would it be fair to interview them, when they are not suitabally qualified and have less experience then some who will miss out on the job. Could be used the other way too.

Say you have one position to fill, only three people apply, and you have to narrow the list down to two. Two of the candidates are black, and both have ten years experience of the role they are applying for, and meet all of the qualifications, the only difference is one of them worked for you in the past but in a different position. The other candiate, only has two years experience of the role, has not been in employment for three years and only meets ninty percent of the qualifications, and he is white. Which two candidates do you interview.


You should not be interviewed or given a job based on race, sexual perference, gender or nationality. It should be on quality and to an extent experience, but you can't get expereience without getting a job.


If our managerial vacancy became available, I would want the best person for the job, as would many others. If it comes down to Jose Mourinho or Paul Ince, I would want Mourinho. If it came down to Frank Rijkaard or Big Sam, I would want Rijkaard.

If aliens arrived from Mars, and one of them took over a team in Spain that wasn't Barcelona or Real Madrid and won the league, and then it applied for the managerial job here should it become vacant, and the other candidate was Harry Redknapp, I would want the alien.


Instead of looking how many managers out of the 92 are not black, let's look at when the other 90 were all appointed, who the other candiates at the time were, and who else applied for the job, then see if the right man got the job. Man Utd gave the job to the right person, Arsenal did, Norwich two promotions in a row did, Peterborough did as he got them promoted, and in his last spell got them promoted twice in a row, AFC Wimbledon did as he has got them promoted a few times. That's 5 out of 90, different ends of the league, or different divisions.


Interviews and jobs should go to the best person. Equal oppotunities must work both ways. When you fill out a form it always asks for your race, why. Why should it matter.

There are no female footballers in the Premier League or football league, and homosexuality is a totally separate issue; that's still something that is rarely talked about in football, and I imagine there are a few homosexual footballers who are afraid of coming out in public about their sexual orientation.

As for the rest of the post; I do agree that it should be the "best person for the job" and colour shouldn't be an issue, but, like I asked earlier: Why is that in the Premier League and Football League black players make up a 3rd of players actively playing right now, but we've only got 2% of managers being black.

Maybe they are being put off going into coaching?

Scrams
7-9-11, 15:02
It wasn't just him who flopped managing Celtic, Kenny as well. He also didn't get much time at Tranmere, neither did Ince at Blackburn.

And Pardew is ten times the manager that Chris Hougton is. :IN:

Fowi
7-9-11, 15:02
It wasn't just him who flopped managing Celtic, Kenny as well. He also didn't get much time at Tranmere, neither did Ince at Blackburn.

Kenny didn't flop at Celtic. He came in mid-season and won the League Cup. That Kenny recommended Barnes is a different issue. Barnes didn't just look like a bad manager. He seemed completely incompetent. Like you had pulled in some lad off the street. Maybe he just isn't a good manager and it's got nothing to do with him being black. Just like I don't think Dwight Yorke will be a good manager either.

Ince sucked at Blackburn too. He found his level now.

Paullfc1976
7-9-11, 15:02
I can see us winning the Champions league and Fa Cup in 2016 managed by Dalglish in high heels and a wig just to comply with the new "equal opportunities" rules.

I think you're being a tad ridiculous mate.

ceredred
7-9-11, 15:02
You've really twisted things around there. The thread is about the Rooney rule if I'm not mistaken and the impact it may have in football here if it was implemented. We are talking about young black managers actually getting in the frame for jobs in the first place, not positive discrimination. I made a further point about institutional racism in the game and always has been as in other institutions like the Police, Government etc and whether this might help expose that in some way. I have to say I have been surprised by the negativity regarding this and some of the crass comments could be construed as 'racist', a term I am loathe to use but apt here I think. As a moderator do you concur?If those young managers as you like to point are not up to the task and don't achieve the required level to be a top manager, what then?

Bombay Money Lender
7-9-11, 15:03
If you're going infer what another poster is saying, I don't see how you can complain when I do that to you?
...and no, that is highly debateable. Could quite as easily be as much a cultural thing. With any career that has a minority of a certain group, pursuing a career in it either;

Won't seem viable.
Will simply go unconsidered.

I actually don't have a problem with this rule, it's only an interview. If it encourages more black people to go into management regardless of whether they are successful, it can only be a good thing.

Maybe try actually reading posts before you infer anything as I did. It always helps.

SotoSpeakinGreeks
7-9-11, 15:03
It's ridiculous. Why stop at colour, there's no female managers, there's no homosexual managers.

The FA could give their backing to it, but then have they not said, the next England Manager will be English. Now is that not racist. Oh your a not English so you can't have the job.


If you are good enough you would get it, will not matter what race, nationality, gender, sexual perferences etc there is.


If they have to interview x amount of gays, females, black people, overseas people etc, or give positions to y amount, it would lead to more problems then solutions. Everyone would say oh you only got the job because you are a black lesbian from Mars. The person being intreviwed, or given the job, would not be sure if they are getting it on ability, or on equal oppotunties, so would lose self confidence. They may actually be the best person, but think they only got it because they are black or gay and will not believe their own abiity. They would have to work extra hard to prove to everyone they got the job on merit, and not on race, gender or nationality.

Oh we must employ at least five black females who are not English. People will see one of the five employed, and think she only got it because she is a woman, he only got it because he is black, and it maybe not be true at all, they may have got the job regardless of the rule, but people will end up thinking otherwise.


We hear how it's good there's so many Scotish Managers in the top flight and good how the majority of managers are British, that could be considered racist. Reminds me when England supporters got a DVD of the best 10 English players of all time, and people complained all the players were white, so the DVD had to be re released and the list edited so that black players could be on the list. Now how would you feel if you was not on the original DVD and included on the edited one, I think some of the players added, said they didn't want to be and there was nothing wrong with the original DVD.


If it's equal oppotunites, then it should be EQUAL.

If people want a minimum amount of not white, homosexual, female, overseas etc people to be interviewed, or be to given a job, then surely to be EQUAL, they should agree a minimum number of hetrosexual white English men should get jobs and be interviewed. But if a company said there's two positions to fill, we are giving one to a white English hetrosexual man, they would rightly be accused of sexism, homophobic and racism.


Say you had to interview for a position, only five people can be interviewed, twenty apply. Out of the twenty, only one of the applicants is black and if you put the aplicants in a list based on qualifciations for the job, he would be seventh. There's two females who've applied, one is eleventh based on qualifications and experience, the other eighteenth, and only one person who applied has said they are homosexual, yet they have no experience of the job and lack most of the qualifications. Would it be fair to interview them, when they are not suitabally qualified and have less experience then some who will miss out on the job. Could be used the other way too.

Say you have one position to fill, only three people apply, and you have to narrow the list down to two. Two of the candidates are black, and both have ten years experience of the role they are applying for, and meet all of the qualifications, the only difference is one of them worked for you in the past but in a different position. The other candiate, only has two years experience of the role, has not been in employment for three years and only meets ninty percent of the qualifications, and he is white. Which two candidates do you interview.


You should not be interviewed or given a job based on race, sexual perference, gender or nationality. It should be on quality and to an extent experience, but you can't get expereience without getting a job.

If our managerial vacancy became available, I would want the best person for the job, as would many others. If it comes down to Jose Mourinho or Paul Ince, I would want Mourinho. If it came down to Frank Rijkaard or Big Sam, I would want Rijkaard.

If aliens arrived from Mars, and one of them took over a team in Spain that wasn't Barcelona or Real Madrid and won the league, and then it applied for the managerial job here should it become vacant, and the other candidate was Harry Redknapp, I would want the alien.


Instead of looking how many managers out of the 92 are not black, let's look at when the other 90 were all appointed, who the other candiates at the time were, and who else applied for the job, then see if the right man got the job. Man Utd gave the job to the right person, Arsenal did, Norwich two promotions in a row did, Peterborough did as he got them promoted, and in his last spell got them promoted twice in a row, AFC Wimbledon did as he has got them promoted a few times. That's 5 out of 90, different ends of the league, or different divisions.


Interviews and jobs should go to the best person. Equal oppotunities must work both ways. When you fill out a form it always asks for your race, why. Why should it matter.


If we live in a world free of prejudice then I would agree 100%. It would be naive to think we don't.

Fowi
7-9-11, 15:04
There are no female footballers in the Premier League or football league, and homosexuality is a totally separate issue; that's still something that is rarely talked about in football, and I imagine there are a few homosexual footballers who are afraid of coming out in public about their sexual orientation.

As for the rest of the post; I do agree that it should be the "best person for the job" and colour shouldn't be an issue, but, like I asked earlier: Why is that in the Premier League and Football League black players make up a 3rd of players actively playing right now, but we've only got 2% of managers being black.

Maybe they are being put off going into coaching?

Maybe, but we won't be changing the system on maybe. When there is proof that these former black footballers want to coach, but aren't allowed to is when something will be done about it.

CharlieManson
7-9-11, 15:04
I think you're being a tad ridiculous mate.

Possibly mate. nevertheless, nothing like a bit of humour unless your a miserable sod -

Ad_Rock
7-9-11, 15:04
If we live in a world free of prejudice then I would agree 100%. It would be naive to think we don't.

It's naive to think forcing anyone to interview a black candidate will help.

Paullfc1976
7-9-11, 15:05
Maybe, but we won't be changing the system on maybe. When there is proof that these former black footballers want to coach, but aren't allowed to is when something will be done about it.

I am not trying to say chairmen are prejudicing against potential coaches because of their skin colour, but I am trying to get at maybe former black players don't feel that they'll get a fair crack.

SotoSpeakinGreeks
7-9-11, 15:06
Maybe, but we won't be changing the system on maybe. When there is proof that these former black footballers want to coach, but aren't allowed to is when something will be done about it.

What proof do you have that they don't already want to coach? Also what if the reason they don't want to coach is because of not having the confidence they will be hired?

SotoSpeakinGreeks
7-9-11, 15:07
It's naive to think forcing anyone to interview a black candidate will help.

How so? It has already worked in another league facing similar issues.

radders33
7-9-11, 15:08
Ince sucked at Blackburn too. He found his level now.

On the dole? Harsh

Fowi
7-9-11, 15:08
What proof do you have that they don't already want to coach? Also what if the reason they don't want to coach is because of not having the confidence they will be hired?

Because nobody has said so. I'm not gonna go around proving a negative here. It's like trying to be prove that God doesn't exist.

All of this could be true, but there is no proof of it and what's more no black manager or aspiring manger is making any fuss over it. If there was a problem they could just round up 10 former black players who have no interest in coaching and have nothing to lose and get them fighting the cause.

BostonFans
7-9-11, 15:09
I actually don't have a problem with this rule, it's only an interview. If it encourages more black people to go into management regardless of whether they are successful, it can only be a good thing.

This. Finally some sense. You don't automatically get the job as head coach in the NFL because you're black.

The rule states that you have to interview minority candidates before hiring. No one has ever definitively stated that the reason a certain coach was hired was because of the Rooney Rule. It was implemented as a way of introducing diversity into an institution (the NFL) that suffered from very subtle systemic racism.

Just an interview, not the promise of a job.

TeenageMutantNinJaSkrtel
7-9-11, 15:09
There needs to be a poll or some kind of census undertaken to assess how many qualified coaches apply for top jobs in football, so a fuller picture can be seen as to how many black people are actually applying for these rolls.

CharlieManson
7-9-11, 15:09
What proof do you have that they don't already want to coach? Also what if the reason they don't want to coach is because of not having the confidence they will be hired?

Well its pretty much a non starter isnt it - If a person wants to do something then they will do it - Somebody out there will give them a chance -

What you have said isnt proven either.

Scrams
7-9-11, 15:09
I quote

"At the moment we have 23% of black players enrolled on coaching courses. As a result, black coaches will be getting more interviews.

I'd love to see how this progresses and if the managerial percentage will rise.

Bombay Money Lender
7-9-11, 15:09
If those young managers as you like to point are not up to the task and don't achieve the required level to be a top manager, what then?

Then see ya later. The Rooney rule is not about positive discrimination, it's about widening the net. This is where institutional racism needs to be addressed. It's not in your face, it's systemic and initiatives like these may help flush it out is what I'm saying. And to believe that all is right with the World when it comes to racism in the game is to believe black is white.

Euro-77-78-81-84-05
7-9-11, 15:09
because some people aint open with their sexuality doesnt mean there aint no gay managers.

Ok then, no openly gay managers.



because All the issues you stated can be debated about as well

That's the point of a forum.


but why does everybody bring in other issues whenever a debate is about possible prejudice

Because it's being equal. Why should people not bring in other issues, why should racism be given higher prority then sexuality and gender. Why can't people ask why there's no female managers, or openly gay managers.

CharlieManson
7-9-11, 15:10
How so? It has already worked in another league facing similar issues.

not another league, a completely different sport in a completely different country with entirely different values and way of life.

Paullfc1976
7-9-11, 15:11
This. Finally some sense. You don't automatically get the job as head coach in the NFL because you're black.

The rule states that you have to interview minority candidates before hiring. No one has ever definitively stated that the reason a certain coach was hired was because of the Rooney Rule. It was implemented as a way of introducing diversity into an institution (the NFL) that suffered from very subtle systemic racism.

Just an interview, not the promise of a job.

And it seems to have worked in the NFL; if it's just a promise of an interview, and not a promise of a job, then maybe it could work.

RedRob67
7-9-11, 15:12
If we had lynched and raped and and predjudiced blacks and asians as the americans have done and in some states still do then this rule would be worht thinking about .

I remember well the first black in the nat. cricket team great big debate , and similar to the bundes liga with asamoah .

dont think blacks now want to be prefered over others coz of their colour coz no white is considered, cuz of his clour , but , on his capabilities.

If a manager has the wherewith all then he will get the job, blacks must come out and demand fair treatment if they feel they are capable and are not being considered .

imo.

Fowi
7-9-11, 15:12
The NFL, just like the NBA, had a genuine and open problem of racism. They had the environment where it said on the gates of clubs "no blacks allowed". This isn't the case in today's Premier League.

Scrams
7-9-11, 15:12
Ok then, no openly gay managers.




That's the point of a forum.



Because it's being equal. Why should people not bring in other issues, why should racism be given higher prority then sexuality and gender. Why can't people ask why there's no female managers, or openly gay managers.

Yes and im sure they will all be challenged, every issue cant be tackled at once.

CharlieManson
7-9-11, 15:12
Ok then, no openly gay managers.






And there never will be either, they will be terrorised and hounded out. Thats the way the world works and thats the way it will always work.

ceredred
7-9-11, 15:13
Then see ya later. The Rooney rule is not about positive discrimination, it's about widening the net. This is where institutional racism needs to be addressed. It's not in your face, it's systemic and initiatives like these may help flush it out is what I'm saying. And to believe that all is right with the World when it comes to racism in the game is to believe black is white.So are you saying there is institutional racism in the EPL?

Paullfc1976
7-9-11, 15:14
The NFL, just like the NBA, had a genuine and open problem of racism. They had the environment where it said on the gates of clubs "no blacks allowed". This isn't the case in today's Premier League.

That was surely years ago, Fowi?

Just like black players had bananas thrown at them in the late 70s/80s and had monkey chants aimed at them; it doesn't necessarily exist today.

Scrams
7-9-11, 15:15
And there never will be either, they will be terrorised and hounded out. Thats the way the world works and thats the way it will always work.

Well the same can be said for other issues.

radders33
7-9-11, 15:15
I quote

"At the moment we have 23% of black players enrolled on coaching courses. As a result, black coaches will be getting more interviews.

I'd love to see how this progresses and if the managerial percentage will rise.

I suppose that brings up another point. How many black people have had interviews for managers jobs recently? Is there a tally?

It's all very well saying there's only 2% of black managers in the League, but if 23% of the applicants for the managers jobs were black then it's bring a different light on the subject, unless of course those applicants then weren't appointed because they were black.

CharlieManson
7-9-11, 15:15
So are you saying there is institutional racism in the EPL?

There isnt, its nasty people at work with evil agendas..... Inventing problems that really dont exist at all.

LiverpoolOne
7-9-11, 15:15
An article worth reading that may help us in our understanding of the issues:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/mar/28/black-football-managers-institutional-racism

SotoSpeakinGreeks
7-9-11, 15:16
Well its pretty much a non starter isnt it - If a person wants to do something then they will do it - Somebody out there will give them a chance -

What you have said isnt proven either.

The point is neither of us know. If coaches don't even try to get coaching jobs because they feel it is a lost cause we won't know. There could be hundreds of blacks with coaching aspirtations who have been deterred by the perception the wont be given much of a chance.

Bombay Money Lender
7-9-11, 15:16
So are you saying there is institutional racism in the EPL?

Are you saying there isn't? Are you saying there is no institiutional racism in football? On the terraces? At Liverpool FC? On these boards?

coachwatson
7-9-11, 15:17
It's a token rule in America and will be a token rule in England.

But their is an issue with face in both leagues.

BostonFans
7-9-11, 15:17
And it seems to have worked in the NFL; if it's just a promise of an interview, and not a promise of a job, then maybe it could work.

There are clauses and intricacies, as well. You can skip the Rooney Rule if an assistant's already promised the job, OR, if the assistant is a minority and is being promoted within the organization. It's actually been extended to include the American equivalents of coaches and assistant managers (Offensive/Defensive Coordinators; position coaches).

It is just an interview. I have no problem with the Rooney Rule. Not only does it introduce diversity, but it can help to remove the perceptions held by minorities that act as a barricade to moving into coaching. Glass ceilings, whether real or imagined in English football, could begin to be dismantled.

RedRob67
7-9-11, 15:18
another thing why are there not any black swimmers and why did it take so long for a black to get into formular one ??

CharlieManson
7-9-11, 15:18
The point is neither of us know. If coaches don't even try to get coaching jobs because they feel it is a lost cause we won't know. There could be hundreds of blacks with coaching aspirtations who have been deterred by the perception the wont be given much of a chance.

Im sure if any of them were actually good enough and trully knew they were they would make it. There are black managers, unfortunately they are all crap.

Euro-77-78-81-84-05
7-9-11, 15:18
Yes and im sure they will all be challenged, every issue cant be tackled at once.

Why not, why can a black female lesbian not get the next job that comes up, and if they can't all be tackled at once, who decides race should be tackled first ahead of gender, nationality and sexual preference.

Fowi
7-9-11, 15:18
That was surely years ago, Fowi?

Just like black players had bananas thrown at them in the late 70s/80s and had monkey chants aimed at them; it doesn't necessarily exist today.

Yes, but that was more severe. It's only 50 years ago that black players weren't allowed to play in the NBA, for example. And it wasn't a small racism issue. It was "you're black, you can't play".

Paullfc1976
7-9-11, 15:18
There are clauses and intricacies, as well. You can skip the Rooney Rule if an assistant's already promised the job, OR, if the assistant is a minority and is being promoted within the organization. It's actually been extended to include the American equivalents of coaches and assistant managers (Offensive/Defensive Coordinators; position coaches).

It is just an interview. I have no problem with the Rooney Rule. Not only does it introduce diversity, but it can help to remove the perceptions held by minorities that act as a barricade to moving into coaching. Glass ceilings, whether real or imagined in English football, could begin to be dismantled.

This gives us a much better understanding of the rule, and is not merely "positive discrimination" as has been suggested.

Paullfc1976
7-9-11, 15:19
Yes, but that was more severe. It's only 50 years ago that black players weren't allowed to play in the NBA, for example. And it wasn't a small racism issue. It was "you're black, you can't play".

Yes, and that occurred not only in sport but in all aspects of life in America.

Scrams
7-9-11, 15:20
Are you saying there isn't? Are you saying there is no institiutional racism in football? On the terraces? At Liverpool FC? On these boards?

Of course there is, especially at LFC. We haven't played a black player this season :P (It's a joke for all you sensitive neggers)

Bombay Money Lender
7-9-11, 15:20
There isnt, its nasty people at work with evil agendas..... Inventing problems that really dont exist at all.

You're really adding nothing to the debate here. If you don't see a problem there are many other threads for you to contribute to.

CharlieManson
7-9-11, 15:20
another thing why are there not any black swimmers and why did it take so long for a black to get into formular one ??

Its said black paople can not swim very well - Whether its a myth or not i dont know, I did go to school with a black lad and he swam very well. As for formula one, Hamilton was the best and he made it, there were people that wanted him to fail, racists... But he made it.. Racism is all around and always will be, If your good enough you will beat it.

Fowi
7-9-11, 15:21
Yes, and that occurred not only in sport but in all aspects of life in America.

Yes, but their issues are much bigger ones. In NFL, 65% of players are black. In NBA, 83% of players are black. These are predominantly black sports. Football can't compete with those stats at all.

BostonFans
7-9-11, 15:21
The NFL, just like the NBA, had a genuine and open problem of racism. They had the environment where it said on the gates of clubs "no blacks allowed". This isn't the case in today's Premier League.

That's a bit out of context with the Rooney Rule. Those are examples of the overt racism that plagued America well through the 1950s. After the passage of the Civil Rights Act in 1964, those things became illegal, and the racism went underground. It hasn't gone away, it just manifests much more subtly, like the lack of hiring opportunities, rental discrimination, etc.

The Rooney Rule is designed to fight this quieter form of racism.

CharlieManson
7-9-11, 15:21
You're really adding nothing to the debate here. If you don't see a problem there are many other threads for you to contribute to.

Whats to debate? If they are good enough, they will make it to the top level. Racism is all around...... Always has been and always will be. Football is corrupt at the top & it cant be combated at all, never mind racism. Case closed mate.

Bombay Money Lender
7-9-11, 15:22
Yes, and that occurred not only in sport but in all aspects of life in America.

And in Britain. Not that long ago either.

radders33
7-9-11, 15:22
(It's a joke for all you sensitive neggers)

Whoa, I mis-read that originally! :D

SotoSpeakinGreeks
7-9-11, 15:22
not another league, a completely different sport in a completely different country with entirely different values and way of life.

Certainly. But racism and prejudice exists in both countries. I don't see how it being a different sport really matters. Both sports have way more blacks playing than coaching.

Bombay Money Lender
7-9-11, 15:23
Whats to debate? If they are good enough, they will make it to the top level. Racism is all around...... Always has been and always will be. Football is corrupt at the top & it cant be combated at all, never mind racism. Case closed mate.

You agree racism is all around yet don't see it as a problem :confused:

Scrams
7-9-11, 15:23
Why not, why can a black female lesbian not get the next job that comes up, and if they can't all be tackled at once, who decides race should be tackled first ahead of gender, nationality and sexual preference.

Just becuase the Rooney Rule is being discussed on the boards it doesnt mean that gender issues and homosexuality are not being discussed in the same way elsewhere.

Scrams
7-9-11, 15:24
Whoa, I mis-read that originally! :D

:D

coachwatson
7-9-11, 15:24
Well its pretty much a non starter isnt it - If a person wants to do something then they will do it - Somebody out there will give them a chance -

What you have said isnt proven either.

What kind of fantasy world do you live in?

Paullfc1976
7-9-11, 15:25
Yes, but their issues are much bigger ones. In NFL, 65% of players are black. In NBA, 83% of players are black. These are predominantly black sports. Football can't compete with those stats at all.

I know, and I can counter that argument with what I said earlier about 25% of footballers in the UK being black, but only 2% being managers. So you can argue the same point to a degree.


Whoa, I mis-read that originally! :D

I am sure you're not the only one :eek:

CharlieManson
7-9-11, 15:25
You agree racism is all around yet don't see it as a problem :confused:

Its a problem, Its not as big as problem as cancer or hunger, Its a way of life, It divides people and thats the way it always was and always will, Do gooders can not combat it, It will never go away. See this dodgy rule of more black manager in football. It ill never happen. Guaranteed.

SotoSpeakinGreeks
7-9-11, 15:25
The NFL, just like the NBA, had a genuine and open problem of racism. They had the environment where it said on the gates of clubs "no blacks allowed". This isn't the case in today's Premier League.

Not sure when you are referring about but this hasn't been an issue in about 50 years.

CharlieManson
7-9-11, 15:26
What kind of fantasy world do you live in?

One were racism does not exist. You should come over sometime and meet my wife.

Paullfc1976
7-9-11, 15:27
If anyone is interested watch SSN now.

RedRob67
7-9-11, 15:27
Yes, but their issues are much bigger ones. In NFL, 65% of players are black. In NBA, 83% of players are black. These are predominantly black sports. Football can't compete with those stats at all.

It is also , for many , as is the army, the only way of getting a livlyhood .


I have no problem with fighting racsism, but in England today , the black and asian community is strong enough to voice their opinion on this matter and if they dont or have not to date then I would suggest that there is hardly any
who want to go into coachiing

Paullfc1976
7-9-11, 15:27
Its a problem, Its not as big as problem as cancer or hunger, Its a way of life, It divides people and thats the way it always was and always will, Do gooders can not combat it, It will never go away. See this dodgy rule of more black manager in football. It ill never happen. Guaranteed.

You're missing the point.

Scrams
7-9-11, 15:28
One were racism does not exist. You should come over sometime and meet my wife.

Can I meet her as well. Will she like my black meat? :P

CharlieManson
7-9-11, 15:29
Can I meet her as well. Will she like my black meat? :P

So you are black ?

coachwatson
7-9-11, 15:29
Yes, but their issues are much bigger ones. In NFL, 65% of players are black. In NBA, 83% of players are black. These are predominantly black sports. Football can't compete with those stats at all.

It is only a matter of time until football has similar numbers

Euro-77-78-81-84-05
7-9-11, 15:29
Just becuase the Rooney Rule is being discussed on the boards it doesnt mean that gender issues and homosexuality are not being discussed in the same way elsewhere.

It's being discussed on here, as the media are discussing it, because there's only 2 black managers. Why are they not discussing why there's 0 openly gay managers, or 0 female managers.

You also seemed to take offence to the brining up of these issues, asking why people always bring other issues into it and saying not all thinks can be tackeled at once. Which is true, but why is racism more an issue or worse then homophobic, racial abuse based on nationality or sexism.

Scrams
7-9-11, 15:30
So you are black ?

Yeah, more caramel than coffee.

CharlieManson
7-9-11, 15:30
It is only a matter of time until football has similar numbers

Erm, I dont think so mate.

Bombay Money Lender
7-9-11, 15:30
Its a problem, Its not as big as problem as cancer or hunger, Its a way of life, It divides people and thats the way it always was and always will, Do gooders can not combat it, It will never go away. See this dodgy rule of more black manager in football. It ill never happen. Guaranteed.

It's not a dodgy rule, it is an initiative that has had some success in the States. The op put it up for discussion. You haven't read the op properly or you wouldn't be spouting the nonsense you are. Or maybe you would...

CharlieManson
7-9-11, 15:30
Yeah, more caramel than coffee.

Good, I was concerned for a moment..

Paullfc1976
7-9-11, 15:30
It is only a matter of time until football has similar numbers

I doubt it.

Fowi
7-9-11, 15:30
I have no problem with fighting racsism, but in England today , the black and asian community is strong enough to voice their opinion on this matter and if they dont or have not to date then I would suggest that there is hardly any
who want to go into coachiing

Exactly. Lets not force them into situation they don't want to be in. Lets stop telling them that "25% of the players in England are black so go coach you lazy, black sods". If they want to coach and they're not allowed to you bet they will stand up. Afterall these are by large financially comfortable people who will find sympathy and support in their action.

SotoSpeakinGreeks
7-9-11, 15:30
Im sure if any of them were actually good enough and trully knew they were they would make it. There are black managers, unfortunately they are all crap.

That is easy for you to say. I'm not going to pretend I can understand their thought process because I haven't experienced what they have.

tm21
7-9-11, 15:30
really all it should come down to is who is most suitable for the job. Racial quotas should not be allowed in the game. If this rule is adopted how long until some group starts complaining about player representation, the teams are going to have to have 1 Black, 1 White, 1 Asian and 1 Latino in their starting 11. Let the best manager be selected for the job and then let him pick the best 11 from his squad. This could be one of the stupidest ideas ever conceived.

This rule has been enforced since 2006 (I believe) in the NFL and they still only have 7 black head coaches.

CharlieManson
7-9-11, 15:31
It's not a dodgy rule, it is an initiative that has had some success in the States. The op put it up for discussion. You haven't read the op properly or you wouldn't be spouting the nonsense you are. Or maybe you would...

The states is a different world - A different way of life entirely to here in the UK.

Paullfc1976
7-9-11, 15:31
It's being discussed on here, as the media are discussing it, because there's only 2 black managers. Why are they not discussing why there's 0 openly gay managers, or 0 female managers.

You also seemed to take offence to the brining up of these issues, asking why people always bring other issues into it and saying not all thinks can be tackeled at once. Which is true, but why is racism more an issue or worse then homophobic, racial abuse based on nationality or sexism.

I answered that earlier.

SotoSpeakinGreeks
7-9-11, 15:32
Yes, but that was more severe. It's only 50 years ago that black players weren't allowed to play in the NBA, for example. And it wasn't a small racism issue. It was "you're black, you can't play".

It is now basically "you're white, you can't play." and it has nothing to do with race.

Paullfc1976
7-9-11, 15:33
really all it should come down to is who is most suitable for the job. Racial quotas should not be allowed in the game. If this rule is adopted how long until some group starts complaining about player representation, the teams are going to have to have 1 Black, 1 White, 1 Asian and 1 Latino in their starting 11. Let the best manager be selected for the job and then let him pick the best 11 from his squad. This could be one of the stupidest ideas ever conceived.

This rule has been enforced since 2006 (I believe) in the NFL and they still only have 7 black head coaches.

It was 2003 and they're 7 black coaches out of 37, which is about a 5th or about 20%, still larger than the 2% of coaches here.

coachwatson
7-9-11, 15:33
I doubt it.

What were the numbers 20 years ago?

Bombay Money Lender
7-9-11, 15:35
The states is a different world - A different way of life entirely to here in the UK.

In what way?

Mettatron
7-9-11, 15:35
People should be judged on ability not race, to do otherwise would be rascist..... we've seen this kind of policy implemented in Cricket in certain countries....... utter nonsense imo.

CharlieManson
7-9-11, 15:35
What were the numbers 20 years ago?

Its down to preference, A manager could want a white team, yet people would say he was racist but what they gonna do about it. Nothing.

Paullfc1976
7-9-11, 15:36
What were the numbers 20 years ago?

Not sure.

But I cannot foresee a time when we've got a higher % of footballers that are black than white.

ceredred
7-9-11, 15:36
Are you saying there isn't? Are you saying there is no institiutional racism in football? On the terraces? At Liverpool FC? On these boards?I asked you a question and you come back with no answer to it but to ask me questions.

So I'll answer yours since you are so ignorant.

Yes there are elements of racism in football more so on the terraces and especially those terraces in other European countries more than in the English leagues. Are they at boardroom level?...I don't know I don't work in a club boardroom. Are they in the management set up at a club?...I very much doubt it as the majority of management at club level will have players from different ethnicities playing for them and have worked many years as well as played a long side others with different cultures and back grounds.... At this club(supporters)?...there probably is just like there probably is on these forums but not shouted from the roof tops...private thinking I would like to believe rather than boasting about being with some nationalist group.

Racism is in all work and back grounds in life, always has been and no doubt will be in the near future, you would have to be naive at best not to think there is any sort of racism.

Paullfc1976
7-9-11, 15:37
People should be judged on ability not race, to do otherwise would be rascist..... we've seen this kind of policy implemented in Cricket in certain countries....... utter nonsense imo.

Totally different.

The rule states that chairmen interview a black manager, not necessarily offer them a job due to them being black.

CharlieManson
7-9-11, 15:37
In what way?

A lot of ways, but not as different as Iran for instance.

I havent time to explain either.

Scrams
7-9-11, 15:37
It's being discussed on here, as the media are discussing it, because there's only 2 black managers. Why are they not discussing why there's 0 openly gay managers, or 0 female managers.

You also seemed to take offence to the brining up of these issues, asking why people always bring other issues into it and saying not all thinks can be tackeled at once. Which is true, but why is racism more an issue or worse then homophobic, racial abuse based on nationality or sexism.

If a manager wants to come out and say he's gay, may I ask who is stopping him? Do you know how many gay people are in high positions in the world? Do you know how many rights gays have? They have done really well to voice the issue and i feel that they are well accepted into our community now, especially in the UK. Its even taught at schools now, homosexual sex.

I dont see the issue because managers dont come out bragging about their wives either now do they? Do Gay managers not get jobs? We dont know this, there are no stats. If they want to keep their sexuality to themselves, isnt that their personal choice?

Who's Owen Coyle ********? When was the last time Moyes got a *******? Managers, apart from Sven :P, dont discuss there sexual life full stop.

I have no problem with either issue being tackled, once all of them are properly challenged and looked at. Wether its gender before sexuality or otherwise, it doesnt matter to me.

Bombay Money Lender
7-9-11, 15:37
Exactly. Lets not force them into situation they don't want to be in. Lets stop telling them that "25% of the players in England are black so go coach you lazy, black sods". If they want to coach and they're not allowed to you bet they will stand up. Afterall these are by large financially comfortable people who will find sympathy and support in their action.

Who is saying that you whopper?

RedRob67
7-9-11, 15:38
Exactly. Lets not force them into situation they don't want to be in. Lets stop telling them that "25% of the players in England are black so go coach you lazy, black sods". If they want to coach and they're not allowed to you bet they will stand up. Afterall these are by large financially comfortable people who will find sympathy and support in their action.

Would go down the road of ..if you want to coach then prove to me you canI f the guy is successful he will be promoted cuz it is all about winning ,cant sse it being any other way.

Yrs ago , i can imagine bossman saying he dont care, the black stays in the background , nowadays who cares as long as you win .

Saying that cant see a big black man managing at at millwall or barnet ..?
and the lower leagues is where you learn your stuff maybe they have aproblem ...
but again if a minority see s it as a problem then they are strong enough to go public, imo

SotoSpeakinGreeks
7-9-11, 15:39
really all it should come down to is who is most suitable for the job. Racial quotas should not be allowed in the game. If this rule is adopted how long until some group starts complaining about player representation, the teams are going to have to have 1 Black, 1 White, 1 Asian and 1 Latino in their starting 11. Let the best manager be selected for the job and then let him pick the best 11 from his squad. This could be one of the stupidest ideas ever conceived.

This rule has been enforced since 2006 (I believe) in the NFL and they still only have 7 black head coaches.

Read the rule, there are no hiring quotas.

Fowi
7-9-11, 15:40
Who is saying that you whopper?

You. You want more black managers based on only one thing: the number of black players in the league. You have no proof or even suggestion of black managers being held back. You want more black managers because there are many black players. It's that simple.

I for one don't think black people are stupid or shy. If wealthy, former black players wanted to manage they would manage. Or at the very least they'd make a big fuss about it.

SotoSpeakinGreeks
7-9-11, 15:40
The states is a different world - A different way of life entirely to here in the UK.

So thats all you need to dimiss the idea? Seems a little close minded

CharlieManson
7-9-11, 15:42
So thats all you need to dimiss the idea? Seems a little close minded

Im done with this thread pal - We are worlds apart. Literally.

LFCDon
7-9-11, 15:42
Its a problem, Its not as big as problem as cancer or hunger, Its a way of life, It divides people and thats the way it always was and always will, Do gooders can not combat it, It will never go away. See this dodgy rule of more black manager in football. It ill never happen. Guaranteed.

What does hunger or cancer have to do with football? Since those are bigger problems we should ignore this? Since it is "the way things are" we should just accept it and do nothing? Give me a break, that way of thinking depresses me to no end.

One thing I can say for this rule is this, it has been successful. I was worried when this rule was enforced that too many black coaches were going to be hired because of the rule and not merit. But that hasn't happened, it has merely given black coaches chances to impress owners and show they can coach at that level. There are only a handful of black head coaches in the NFL currently, I think 4 come to mind (could be more or less).

I think the rule should be implemented, just in a different way. Different sport in a different country, the rule should be designed to work within the structure of the game and country. The premise is there, they just need to tweak it to make it work. Just my two cents.

Scrams
7-9-11, 15:42
You. You want more black managers based on only one thing: the number of black players in the league. You have no proof or even suggestion of black managers being held back. You want more black managers because there are many black players. It's that simple.

I for one don't think black people are stupid or shy. If wealthy, former black players wanted to manage they would manage. Or at the very least they'd make a big fuss about it.

They must have been voicing their opinion recently cause I doubt the "Rooney Rule in EPL talk" would have just popped up from nowhere.

Bombay Money Lender
7-9-11, 15:43
I asked you a question and you come back with no answer to it but to ask me questions.

So I'll answer yours since you are so ignorant.

Yes there are elements of racism in football more so on the terraces and especially those terraces in other European countries more than in the English leagues. Are they at boardroom level?...I don't know I don't work in a club boardroom. Are they in the management set up at a club?...I very much doubt it as the majority of management at club level will have players from different ethnicities playing for them and have worked many years as well as played a long side others with different cultures and back grounds.... At this club(supporters)?...there probably is just like there probably is on these forums but not shouted from the roof tops...private thinking I would like to believe rather than boasting about being with some nationalist group.

Racism is in all work and back grounds in life, always has been and no doubt will be in the near future, you would have to be naive at best not to think there is any sort of racism.

Ignorant? I would have thought my answer to your rather pathetic question was obvious and if you had bothered your arse to follow my thread you might well have reflected on the need to ask such a pointless question in the first place but hey ho. I asked you a question in your capacity as a 'community moderator' regarding whether you felt some comments on this thread could be deemed racist and you chose to ignore that. I didn't get up in arms and have a hissy fit did I?

SotoSpeakinGreeks
7-9-11, 15:44
Im done with this thread pal - We are worlds apart. Literally.

Good chat. Now have to find something to do with the rest of my 6 hours at work here.

CharlieManson
7-9-11, 15:45
Basically I am watching a guy on SSN being interviewed about the above rule; it's been in place in America since 2003, this is a quote from Wiki:


The Chief Executive of the PFA, Gordon Taylor has said he wants the rule to be implemented here:



What are people thoughts on this being implemented in the UK?

It will never happen and even if it did they wouldnt get the job unless they were on par with Mourinho -

RedRob67
7-9-11, 15:49
So thats all you need to dimiss the idea? Seems a little close minded

If we treated blacks any way near to the way america does then. as in the film industry, I would be all for it ..but we dont in england

Euro-77-78-81-84-05
7-9-11, 15:50
People should be judged on ability not race, to do otherwise would be rascist

Exactly, if a company say has five positions, and one of them has to be filled by a black person, but out of the thirty who apply, only one black person does, he or she is gurantied the job, yet what if they were only the seventh best candiate, that would be one white person who has missed out on the job, which could be considered racist. By one white person, I mean there's two white candidates better qualified, but only one would have got the job, the other one would have missed out anyway.



The rule states that chairmen interview a black manager, not necessarily offer them a job due to them being black.

So if a rule came in saying chairmen interview a white manager, not necessarily offer them a job, would you agree, and it is not different. Also what if no black people apply.

There's only 2 out of 92 management posts filled by black people.

But how many of the other 90 had black people apply

How many of the applicants were better qualified, expereience or would have done a better job then the 90 who currently hold that position

How many of the 90 actually gave interviews to black managerial candidates but gave the job to someone else, possibly more qualified, experience and who went on, or will go on to be a success for their club, maybe their best manager ever.


I don't know the answer to any of them, so will not lie and pretend no black managers applied for the majority of the jobs. Maybe they didn't, maybe they did. But I don't know so won't speculate. But then does anyone else know. Do the people saying there should be more black people know the each of the other 90 had black applicants but decided not to interview any, no they don't.

Maybe the two jobs with the most applicatants from black were the two that have black managers, so obviously a black candidate was going to miss out on one of the jobs.


There should be a record released of percentage of black applicants interviewed for each of the 92 clubs, and then used as an over all, and then the same for the whites. Then it would be a fairer assesment. Also how many percentage of applicants for each of the 92 clubs were black and how many were white, then an overall.

Because say for example 3 clubs recieved no black applications, then the there's only 2 managers stat is misleading in a way, as 3 of the other 90 couldn't offfer a job to blacks if they didn't play, so that would change the percentage. Of course the other 87 of the 90 may have recieved several applications, and chose to interview none. But until numbers are released, it's all guessing and speculating.

Bombay Money Lender
7-9-11, 15:52
You. You want more black managers based on only one thing: the number of black players in the league. You have no proof or even suggestion of black managers being held back. You want more black managers because there are many black players. It's that simple.

I for one don't think black people are stupid or shy. If wealthy, former black players wanted to manage they would manage. Or at the very least they'd make a big fuss about it.

I want a level playing field and have argued that the rooney rule might help that. I haven't advocated positive discrimination in any way, shape or form. It's the old adage of a drowning man/woman clutching at straws with you. You ask for evidence and proof. There has been some evidence and statistics and even comment about this on this thread. Have you bothered to read any of it? Or does it not suit your agenda which, imo, is coming from a far right view point and that is being diplomatic. Have you come up with anything to counter it with other than bluster and ill informed tosh? As I said earlier with you, you're on the ropes with this...jog on.

Paullfc1976
7-9-11, 15:52
Exactly, if a company say has five positions, and one of them has to be filled by a black person, but out of the thirty who apply, only one black person does, he or she is gurantied the job, yet what if they were only the seventh best candiate, that would be one white person who has missed out on the job, which could be considered racist. By one white person, I mean there's two white candidates better qualified, but only one would have got the job, the other one would have missed out anyway.



So if a rule came in saying chairmen interview a white manager, not necessarily offer them a job, would you agree, and it is not different. Also what if no black people apply.

There's only 2 out of 92 management posts filled by black people.

But how many of the other 90 had black people apply

How many of the applicants were better qualified, expereience or would have done a better job then the 90 who currently hold that position

How many of the 90 actually gave interviews to black managerial candidates but gave the job to someone else, possibly more qualified, experience and who went on, or will go on to be a success for their club, maybe their best manager ever.


I don't know the answer to any of them, so will not lie and pretend no black managers applied for the majority of the jobs. Maybe they didn't, maybe they did. But I don't know so won't speculate. But then does anyone else know. Do the people saying there should be more black people know the each of the other 90 had black applicants but decided not to interview any, no they don't.

Maybe the two jobs with the most applicatants from black were the two that have black managers, so obviously a black candidate was going to miss out on one of the jobs.


There should be a record released of percentage of black applicants interviewed for each of the 92 clubs, and then used as an over all, and then the same for the whites. Then it would be a fairer assesment. Also how many percentage of applicants for each of the 92 clubs were black and how many were white, then an overall.

Because say for example 3 clubs recieved no black applications, then the there's only 2 managers stat is misleading in a way, as 3 of the other 90 couldn't offfer a job to blacks if they didn't play, so that would change the percentage. Of course the other 87 of the 90 may have recieved several applications, and chose to interview none. But until numbers are released, it's all guessing and speculating.

Well I don't know the answers either.

RedRob67
7-9-11, 15:55
They must have been voicing their opinion recently cause I doubt the "Rooney Rule in EPL talk" would have just popped up from nowhere.

I hope they have

and if they see a problem it must be given meadia coverage , but to say that blacks need more motivating or need to be given more chances than they have now got, cuz the states do it and it works there is nonsensical , and I dare say insults the black community aswell

Fowi
7-9-11, 15:56
I want a level playing field and have argued that the rooney rule might help that. I haven't advocated positive discrimination in any way, shape or form. It's the old adage of a drowning man/woman clutching at straws with you. You ask for evidence and proof. There has been some evidence and statistics and even comment about this on this thread. Have you bothered to read any of it? Or does it not suit your agenda which, imo, is coming from a far right view point and that is being diplomatic. Have you come up with anything to counter it with other than bluster and ill informed tosh? As I said earlier with you, you're on the ropes with this...jog on.

I want to see clear evidence of a problem existing before entertaining the idea of solving it. So far there has been none.

Jazzy-J
7-9-11, 15:58
Does anybody have any figures on what percentage of our qualified coaches are black?

smokintony
7-9-11, 15:58
another thing why are there not any black swimmers and why did it take so long for a black to get into formular one ??

Because there is only one generation of blacks aloud to use a swimming pool and it was highly unlikely for blacks 50 or so years ago to be aloud on a racing track as a driver, In America especially the current generation of sports stars are the only ones who have relative freedom that the whites have

coachwatson
7-9-11, 16:03
Because there is only one generation of blacks aloud to use a swimming pool and it was highly unlikely for blacks 50 or so years ago to be aloud on a racing track as a driver, In America especially the current generation of sports stars are the only ones who have relative freedom that the whites have


Great point. This is what the anti-affirmative action crowd never comprehends. The applicant may be underqualified, but the reason they are is because of the racism. The purpose of affirmative action is to combat that racism.

Euro-77-78-81-84-05
7-9-11, 16:05
If a manager wants to come out and say he's gay, may I ask who is stopping him

******* el, you are missing the point. Nothing is stopping him, but no manager who is known to be gay is employed. So why is it not being tackled. You seem to support the black debate, but not the gay.

I hope I am wrong, but you seem to be giving the impression that racisim matters more then homosexuality.



Do you know how many gay people are in high positions in the world

No, do you know how many black people applied for each of the 90 clubs that employ white managers, when the vacancy was last availble. You say there may be gay managers, yes there may be, and there may not, we don't know, just like we don't know how many black people applied for the jobs. But there's no known gay managers.

You seem to think this is ok, as people would be hompobic against him. Oh well, it's ok then, let's not employ a known gay manager incase he is abused by people who don't like gays. But if someone said they won't appoint a black manager incase he suffers racism, then that would be wrong, and the person not appointing them would rightly be attacked in the media.




I dont see the issue

It shouldn't be one, same as race shouldn't be one. It's abilty that should count. If it's not an issue how many managers are gay, openly gay, why then is it an issue how many managers are black.




I have no problem with either issue being tackled, once all of them are properly challenged and looked at. Wether its gender before sexuality or otherwise, it doesnt matter to me.

Good I'm glad I was wrong earlier. It just seemed from your previous posts, that you seemed to want black managers given a chance, but didn't care if a manager was gay or not, and seemed you only cared about one and not the other, I'm glad I was wrong, as if you care about one you have to care about the other equally, otherwise you could be called a bigot, racist, homophobic, sexist etc... People say equal oppotunities, but then put certain issues above others. Has the word equal had it's meaning changed, as I know some people like to take already existing words, change the meaning of them and then think they invented the word, when they didn't as they just took a word that is already in existance. For example, if someone said to me you look sick, I would take it as I don't look too good and look ill. But apprantly, you look sick, actually means you look good, because someone took the word and chaged the meaning to the complete oppositie. So if a footballer looks bear sick, it means he did something good, where as Bear Sick is acutally puke from a bear who's thrown up.

smokintony
7-9-11, 16:10
Great point. This is what the anti-affirmative action crowd never comprehends. The applicant may be underqualified, but the reason they are is because of the racism. The purpose of affirmative action is to combat that racism.

Its a major factor in why boxing and athletics were popular with blacks, minimum equipment needed, compared to sports that whites dominate in, Show jumping, gymnastics, swimming and until recently tennis and golf. also they are much cheaper to participate in

ceredred
7-9-11, 16:11
Ignorant? I would have thought my answer to your rather pathetic question was obvious and if you had bothered your arse to follow my thread you might well have reflected on the need to ask such a pointless question in the first place but hey ho. I asked you a question in your capacity as a 'community moderator' regarding whether you felt some comments on this thread could be deemed racist and you chose to ignore that. I didn't get up in arms and have a hissy fit did I?Your thread?...this thread was started by Paullfc1976. Nice to see when someone doesn't agree with you, you immediately bat aside responses as being 'pathetic'. If you have complaints about certain posts in this thread then report them as I happen to be reading many posts in other threads as well as this one, hence the late reply to your last post to me.

smokintony
7-9-11, 16:14
******* el, you are missing the point. Nothing is stopping him, but no manager who is known to be gay is employed. So why is it not being tackled. You seem to support the black debate, but not the gay.

I hope I am wrong, but you seem to be giving the impression that racisim matters more then homosexuality.

But theres more professional black footballers than openly gay footballers so if they both have 0 managers its reasonable to assume that race has the bigger issue

Jazzy-J
7-9-11, 16:18
We could kill two birds with one stone by appointing Ru Paul as our director of football.

Scrams
7-9-11, 16:22
[QUOTE=Euro-77-78-81-84-05;6307390]******* el, you are missing the point. Nothing is stopping him, but no manager who is known to be gay is employed. So why is it not being tackled. You seem to support the black debate, but not the gay.

No manager is known to be gay, that aint saying that managers are not gay. For all we know there might be 20% of managers that are gay and employed in the EPL but its a different issue as we dont know their sexuality unless they want to tell us.

Its not as if managers are saying they wasnt employed because they are gay so how do we even know if this issue even exists?

BostonFans
7-9-11, 16:27
There's a lot of conclusion-jumping going on here. The clubs aren't going to be forced to hire minority candidates solely because they're a minority.

They just have to be interviewed, and only one minority candidate needs to be interviewed to satisfy the criteria of the rule. It is not like affirmative-action in the US higher education system, where quotas are enforced.

For example: let's say the rule goes into effect on January 1, 2012. At the end of the season, Roberto Martinez is fired by Wigan. The shortlist of managers interviewed would have to include one minority candidate (let's say John Barnes). John Barnes interviews with Whelan, as does Paul Lambert. Whelan realizes that Barnes, though a great player, is a below-average manager, and hires the guy with the good track record in Lambert.

The Rooney Rule has been satisfied, but Wigan have still made the right appointment.

Ad_Rock
7-9-11, 16:28
Does anybody have any figures on what percentage of our qualified coaches are black?

One way of looking at it is that 2% of the population is black.

2 of 92 league coaches being black exceeds this proportion, how bout that?

In any case, affirmative action is just a downright unfair way to screen for potential employment. Qualification is all that matters.

Paullfc1976
7-9-11, 16:29
There's a lot of conclusion-jumping going on here. The clubs aren't going to be forced to hire minority candidates solely because they're a minority.

They just have to be interviewed, and only one minority candidate needs to be interviewed to satisfy the criteria of the rule. It is not like affirmative-action in the US higher education system, where quotas are enforced.

For example: let's say the rule goes into effect on January 1, 2012. At the end of the season, Roberto Martinez is fired by Wigan. The shortlist of managers interviewed would have to include one minority candidate (let's say John Barnes). John Barnes interviews with Whelan, as does Paul Lambert. Whelan realizes that Barnes, though a great player, is a below-average manager, and hires the guy with the good track record in Lambert.

The Rooney Rule has been satisfied, but Wigan have still made the right appointment.

I think this is the point some people are missing in relation to the rule.

You've summarised it well.

Seanosdelgardo
7-9-11, 16:30
My opinion is that if you are good enough it shouldn't matter what colour race or age you are.

This about sums it up. Colour or race has nothing to do with it......if your good enough, you'll get noticed, get a job, and work your way up the ladder.....if your not....you wont.

Scrams
7-9-11, 16:30
One way of looking at it is that 2% of the population is black.

2 of 92 league coaches being black exceeds this proportion, how bout that?

In any case, affirmative action is just a downright unfair way to screen for potential employment. Qualification is all that matters.

Country Population and football population are different things.

How many of the population of the country are employed in football?

ceredred
7-9-11, 16:31
There's a lot of conclusion-jumping going on here. The clubs aren't going to be forced to hire minority candidates solely because they're a minority.

They just have to be interviewed, and only one minority candidate needs to be interviewed to satisfy the criteria of the rule. It is not like affirmative-action in the US higher education system, where quotas are enforced.

For example: let's say the rule goes into effect on January 1, 2012. At the end of the season, Roberto Martinez is fired by Wigan. The shortlist of managers interviewed would have to include one minority candidate (let's say John Barnes). John Barnes interviews with Whelan, as does Paul Lambert. Whelan realizes that Barnes, though a great player, is a below-average manager, and hires the guy with the good track record in Lambert.

The Rooney Rule has been satisfied, but Wigan have still made the right appointment.Would it be the same as the Equality Act that employers in the UK follow?

Seanosdelgardo
7-9-11, 16:32
There's a lot of conclusion-jumping going on here. The clubs aren't going to be forced to hire minority candidates solely because they're a minority.

They just have to be interviewed, and only one minority candidate needs to be interviewed to satisfy the criteria of the rule. It is not like affirmative-action in the US higher education system, where quotas are enforced.

For example: let's say the rule goes into effect on January 1, 2012. At the end of the season, Roberto Martinez is fired by Wigan. The shortlist of managers interviewed would have to include one minority candidate (let's say John Barnes). John Barnes interviews with Whelan, as does Paul Lambert. Whelan realizes that Barnes, though a great player, is a below-average manager, and hires the guy with the good track record in Lambert.

The Rooney Rule has been satisfied, but Wigan have still made the right appointment.

Its still idiotic........You may as well have called the black candidate "token"

He should only be interviewed if he has a chance of getting the job, not just to satisfy the "token rule"

Bombay Money Lender
7-9-11, 16:32
Your thread?...this thread was started by Paullfc1976. Nice to see when someone doesn't agree with you, you immediately bat aside responses as being 'pathetic'. If you have complaints about certain posts in this thread then report them as I happen to be reading many posts in other threads as well as this one, hence the late reply to your last post to me.

Yes, I have a thread of an argument running within this thread...get it? As for being called 'pathetic' it was in response to being called 'ignorant' by your good self, whatever. I have no desire to report anyone, I simply asked you a question. If you don't have the time to respond because of your moderating committments may I suggest you refrain from dropping loaded questions into a thread it was obvious you had not properly scanned beforehand.

Seanosdelgardo
7-9-11, 16:35
Would it be the same as the Equality Act that employers in the UK follow?

No. Employers in the UK are under no obligation that a minority candidate HAS to be interviewed for a job. They only have to ensure that if a minority candidate does apply, they are not discriminated against because of their colour/race.

Mettatron
7-9-11, 16:36
Totally different.

The rule states that chairmen interview a black manager, not necessarily offer them a job due to them being black.

So if this came in when the King steps down (may that be a long time away) and we wanted a new manager we'd have to interview Paul Ince (example) for the Job if he applied even though we know he is totally and utterly unqualified other than being Black?

But we don't have to give him the job so both he and we know it's a complete waste of time/money.

Sounds like a marvalous rule.

ceredred
7-9-11, 16:36
Yes, I have a thread of an argument running within this thread...get it? As for being called 'pathetic' it was in response to being called 'ignorant' by your good self, whatever. I have no desire to report anyone, I simply asked you a question. If you don't have the time to respond because of your moderating committments may I suggest you refrain from dropping loaded questions into a thread it was obvious you had not properly scanned beforehand.Apologies for calling you 'ignorant' earlier.:)

The last response by Bostonfans summerizes the situation up better and what the 'rooney rule' is about.

Paullfc1976
7-9-11, 16:37
So if this came in when the King steps down (may that be a long time away) and we wanted a new manager we'd have to interview Paul Ince (example) for the Job if he applied even though we know he is totally and utterly unqualified other than being Black?

But we don't have to give him the job so both he and we know it's a complete waste of time/money.

Sounds like a marvalous rule.

Well, it's something is being touted, and that seems to have worked in America.

smokintony
7-9-11, 16:38
Its still idiotic........You may as well have called the black candidate "token"

He should only be interviewed if he has a chance of getting the job, not just to satisfy the "token rule"

Jeez what does it even matter:rolleyes:

ceredred
7-9-11, 16:39
No. Employers in the UK are under no obligation that a minority candidate HAS to be interviewed for a job. They only have to ensure that if a minority candidate does apply, they are not discriminated against because of their colour/race.So the 'Rooney Rule' is a kind of extension of the Equality rule, maybe.

BostonFans
7-9-11, 16:40
Would it be the same as the Equality Act that employers in the UK follow?

That I can't speak to, because I have lived in America all my life, and don't know much of UK labor laws.



Its still idiotic........You may as well have called the black candidate "token"

He should only be interviewed if he has a chance of getting the job, not just to satisfy the "token rule"

I know it seems like that, using the example of John Barnes. The biggest difference between the NFL and EPL in these situations is that there are many more qualified minority candidates available to the NFL.

BeckenhamRed
7-9-11, 16:40
There's a lot of conclusion-jumping going on here. The clubs aren't going to be forced to hire minority candidates solely because they're a minority.

They just have to be interviewed, and only one minority candidate needs to be interviewed to satisfy the criteria of the rule. It is not like affirmative-action in the US higher education system, where quotas are enforced.

For example: let's say the rule goes into effect on January 1, 2012. At the end of the season, Roberto Martinez is fired by Wigan. The shortlist of managers interviewed would have to include one minority candidate (let's say John Barnes). John Barnes interviews with Whelan, as does Paul Lambert. Whelan realizes that Barnes, though a great player, is a below-average manager, and hires the guy with the good track record in Lambert.

The Rooney Rule has been satisfied, but Wigan have still made the right appointment.

Thanks for an intelligent clarification of the Rooney Rule.

It did seem obvious to me that that was the case, but I am not certain I could have put it better.

SotoSpeakinGreeks
7-9-11, 16:40
So if this came in when the King steps down (may that be a long time away) and we wanted a new manager we'd have to interview Paul Ince (example) for the Job if he applied even though we know he is totally and utterly unqualified other than being Black?

But we don't have to give him the job so both he and we know it's a complete waste of time/money.

Sounds like a marvalous rule.

It has opened eyes. Manager you think might be utterly useless and token candidates have impressed in interviews, gotten jobs, and done well.

Euro-77-78-81-84-05
7-9-11, 16:41
Its not as if managers are saying they wasnt employed because they are gay so how do we even know if this issue even exists

Exactly we don't. But how do we know the race thing does, just because a manager says he didn't get a job because he is black, does not make it true. Just the same as someone saying, he only got the job because he is black does not mean it is true.

Until we know the percentage of black applicants interviewed for a job at a club, and the percentage that applied, then we don't know.

smokintony
7-9-11, 16:41
Originally Posted by Seanosdelgardo
No. Employers in the UK are under no obligation that a minority candidate HAS to be interviewed for a job. They only have to ensure that if a minority candidate does apply, they are not discriminated against because of their colour/race.

Not according to the Daily Mail

Paullfc1976
7-9-11, 16:42
That I can't speak to, because I have lived in America all my life, and don't know much of UK labor laws.




I know it seems like that, using the example of John Barnes. The biggest difference between the NFL and EPL in these situations is that there are many more qualified minority candidates available to the NFL.

Perhaps the EPL believes that the lack of qualified candidates comes from a perceived barrier, a thought-process that falls along the lines of, "Well, I am a young, black player - and because I see no black managers, I don't believe I can succeed as one, or anyone will ever hire me. I won't bother to get my badges." By enacting this rule, perhaps the EPL is trying to change this mindset?

Yes, this is what I was alluding to earlier; the fact that maybe a black player coming toward the end of his career or having retired, doesn't think they have what it takes to become a coach, not because of chairmen of clubs being discriminatory, but because they don't feel comfortable applying.

coachwatson
7-9-11, 16:46
So if this came in when the King steps down (may that be a long time away) and we wanted a new manager we'd have to interview Paul Ince (example) for the Job if he applied even though we know he is totally and utterly unqualified other than being Black?

But we don't have to give him the job so both he and we know it's a complete waste of time/money.

Sounds like a marvalous rule.


Well I imagine there are some qualified black coaches and they would be interviewed.

Jazzy-J
7-9-11, 16:49
Well I imagine there are some qualified black coaches and they would be interviewed.

I can't think of any black potential candidates if Kenny stepped down. Perhaps Rijkaard, but he'd probably be outside the top 10 choices.

Scrams
7-9-11, 16:51
Exactly we don't. But how do we know the race thing does, just because a manager says he didn't get a job because he is black, does not make it true. Just the same as someone saying, he only got the job because he is black does not mean it is true.

Until we know the percentage of black applicants interviewed for a job at a club, and the percentage that applied, then we don't know.

23% of black players are enrolled on the coaching course so in a few years time I expect the managerial percentage to rise.

smokintony
7-9-11, 16:51
I can't think of any black potential candidates if Kenny stepped down. Perhaps Rijkaard, but he'd probably be outside the top 10 choices.

Thats because theres a lack of current black managers at the moment, its a vicious circle

Jazzy-J
7-9-11, 16:53
Thats because theres a lack of current black managers at the moment, its a vicious circle

I wasn't commenting on that, just the post I quoted.

I guess that shows it's a worldwide issue too. Although the large number of white managers coaching African national teams is worth mentioning too.

coachwatson
7-9-11, 16:54
I can't think of any black potential candidates if Kenny stepped down. Perhaps Rijkaard, but he'd probably be outside the top 10 choices.

That's the problem, blacks aren't getting the opportunity to show they are qualified.

Jazzy-J
7-9-11, 16:55
That's the problem, blacks aren't getting the opportunity to show they are qualified.

That wasn't my point. I was just responding to your assertion that there would be suitable black candidates.

smokintony
7-9-11, 16:59
I wasn't commenting on that, just the post I quoted.

I guess that shows it's a worldwide issue too. Although the large number of white managers coaching African national teams is worth mentioning too.

My point is IF we required a manager right now we would want an established one, because of the lack of current established black managers the chances are most if not all on the short list would be white, I don't see that as a problem the way things are at the moment, I think the ideas mentioned are trying to change that though

Bombay Money Lender
7-9-11, 16:59
Apologies for calling you 'ignorant' earlier.:)

The last response by Bostonfans summerizes the situation up better and what the 'rooney rule' is about.

Aplogies for the 'pathetic' remark :)

I agree with Bostonfans which leads me back to my initial comment that there is institutional racism in football as well as many other walks of life and the rooney rule is, maybe, one way of helping expose that. Something as systemic in the game as racism needs particular initiatives as some go automatically defensive and protest that there is 'no problem' within as if there is a stigma attached. This thread is a perfect example. Many well thought out arguments on both sides interspersed with ill conceived rhetoric about how it should always be 'the best man for the job' as if the rooney rule advocates anything other than that.

coachwatson
7-9-11, 17:04
That wasn't my point. I was just responding to your assertion that there would be suitable black candidates

Does suitable only mean proven at an elite club ?

I think Chris hughton would have the potential to ne suitable

Jazzy-J
7-9-11, 17:06
Does suitable only mean proven at an elite club ?

I think Chris hughton would have the potential to ne suitable

If Hughton got the Liverpool job the fans would be up in arms, and not because he's mixed race. If someone like Coyle got it I suspect the fans would be less upset, and again I doubt it's based on his skin colour.

ceredred
7-9-11, 17:07
Aplogies for the 'pathetic' remark :)

I agree with Bostonfans which leads me back to my initial comment that there is institutional racism in football as well as many other walks of life and the rooney rule is, maybe, one way of helping expose that. Something as systemic in the game as racism needs particular initiatives as some go automatically defensive and protest that there is 'no problem' within as if there is a stigma attached. This thread is a perfect example. Many well thought out arguments on both sides interspersed with ill conceived rhetoric about how it should always be 'the best man for the job' as if the rooney rule advocates anything other than that.For me if the governing bodies of the 'Beautiful Game' Fifa/Uefa grew some balls and actually banned teams rather than hand out peanut fines, then progress could start to be made now which may take a few years but the education a long side hard line stances on issues of racism and other discrimination with in football globally will improve the game for our future generations.

ScouseSoxNation
7-9-11, 17:12
Giving someone an interview doesnt mean a thing. If that organization doesnt want to hire blacks, they wont.

smokintony
7-9-11, 17:14
Giving someone an interview doesnt mean a thing. If that organization doesnt want to hire blacks, they wont.

So what else do you suggest to solving the problem, or should it just be ignored

Bombay Money Lender
7-9-11, 17:15
For me if the governing bodies of the 'Beautiful Game' Fifa/Uefa grew some balls and actually banned teams rather than hand out peanut fines, then progress could start to be made now which may take a few years but the education a long side hard line stances on issues of racism and other discrimination with in football globally will improve the game for our future generations.

Spot on but it will never happen because FIFA/UEFA have more institutional racism sytstemic within it than we have. At least we have been in the vanguard for change. The other two just shrug their shoulders and spout 'it's a social problem' and fine the culprits a tenner or whetever.

Paullfc1976
7-9-11, 17:16
Spot on but it will never happen because FIFA/UEFA have more institutional racism sytstemic within it than we have. At least we have been in the vanguard for change. The other two just shrug their shoulders and spout 'it's a social problem' and fine the culprits a tenner or whetever.

True, FIFA and UEFA have been useless in trying to combat racism in football.

coachwatson
7-9-11, 17:16
If Hughton got the Liverpool job the fans would be up in arms, and not because he's mixed race. If someone like Coyle got it I suspect the fans would be less upset, and again I doubt it's based on his skin colour.

Well it wouldn't be because of past success as hughton is the more accomplished manager

Jazzy-J
7-9-11, 17:19
Well it wouldn't be because of past success as hughton is the more accomplished manager

I think you're thinking of someone else. Hughton has only 18 months of full time managerial experience, 12 of which were served in the second tier of football.

coachwatson
7-9-11, 17:23
I think you're thinking of someone else. Hughton has only 18 months of full time managerial experience, 12 of which were served in the second tier of football.

And he won the championship compared to Coyle's playoff win

ScouseSoxNation
7-9-11, 17:26
So what else do you suggest to solving the problem, or should it just be ignored

The reality is unless its government run, you cant make anyone hire someone they dont want to and its wrong to do that.

Jazzy-J
7-9-11, 17:26
And he won the championship compared to Coyle's playoff win

Oh, you really do think Hughton is the better manager! I'm a little taken aback to be honest. Seriously?

Yes he did win the Championship. While managing Newcastle who had been relegated the previous season. Coyle was manager of Burnley, who hadn't been in the top flight since 1432. I know which feat impressed me more.

Edit - I am a fan of Hughton though. He did a good job at Newcastle.

coachwatson
7-9-11, 17:29
Oh, you really do think Hughton is the better manager! I'm a little taken aback to be honest. Seriously?

Yes he did win the Championship. While managing Newcastle who had been relegated the previous season. Coyle was manager of Burnley, who hadn't been in the top flight since 1432. I know which feat impressed me more.

I find it odd the more accomplished manager doesn't have a top flight job, don't you?

Jazzy-J
7-9-11, 17:31
I find it odd the more accomplished manager doesn't have a top flight job, don't you?

He does, he manages Bolton.

As mentioned before, Hughton has 6 months of top level managerial experience. What makes him the "more accomplished" of the two?

coachwatson
7-9-11, 17:39
He does, he manages Bolton.

As mentioned before, Hughton has 6 months of top level managerial experience. What makes him the "more accomplished" of the two?

Well now we know why you cant think of a single black suitable for Liverpool. Blacks aren't qualified for positions because they lack premiership experience and they can't get premiership experience because they lack premiership experience.

Very interesting.

And hughton has a trophy, coyle does not.

Jazzy-J
7-9-11, 17:45
Well now we know why you cant think of a single black suitable for Liverpool. Blacks aren't qualified for positions because they lack premiership experience and they can't get premiership experience because they lack premiership experience.

Very interesting.

And hughton has a trophy, coyle does not.

I wasn't debating the issue in the OP, just your original assertion that there would be qualified candidates for a job like the Liverpool one. To me there aren't any, and the reasons for that may well be that they have been discriminated against. I apologise if I hadn't simplified that enough.

Hughton does have a second division winners trophy, true. Coyle does have a trophy as a manager though. Although it's certainly not one of the criteria I would use to ascertain which is the better manager. If we were to do that we'd have to concede that Alex McLeish is a better manager than both of them.

TheSagaCoutinhos
7-9-11, 17:54
i understand its basis, like i understood when a similar thing was done in South Africa, but its a delicate balancing act - but you are right in what you say - tis hard to name many managers of different cultures that aint white westerners

The concept may have good intentions but it's just a no no for me. Being black, yes I am aware that there are prejudices in the world, but I've never encountered them (That I know of) and football (especially in the UK) is AWASH with black players, most of the time they choose to end their association with the sport. For me, I loved coaching, might do it again some day.... but I've got other things to do like the rest of the world.

Yes, in the US were the segregation is blatant, it will work, they are 100's of yeah's behind us.

People should be appointed based on ability, there might seem to be a need for my ethnicities, but in truth, no one's complaining and nobody's made an issue of.

End of!

coachwatson
7-9-11, 17:57
I wasn't debating the issue in the OP, just your original assertion that there would be qualified candidates for a job like the Liverpool one. To me there aren't any, and the reasons for that may well be that they have been discriminated against. I apologise if I hadn't simplified that enough.

Hughton does have a second division winners trophy, true. Coyle does have a trophy as a manager though. Although it's certainly not one of the criteria I would use to ascertain which is the better manager. If we were to do that we'd have to concede that Alex McLeish is a better manager than both of them.

I'm pointing out your attitude is why the rooney rule is important. It forces teams to scout out managers for potential and not just automatically disqualify them because they may not have been given the opportunity.

Jazzy-J
7-9-11, 17:57
I just got a PM on The Kop from someone called PaulLFC1976 telling me that black players don't become coaches because they're too busy listening to hip-hop and watching Chris Rock DVDs :confused: Who the hell is he?

jamiechloe
7-9-11, 17:57
I still don't understand what the rule is trying to achieve for 2 reasons. I'm a black guy and if I got the job must because I filled some rule than I would feel a huge pressure because I'd be judged more than what I actually should be. Secondly if the rule is that you must interview at least 1 black applicant how does that still make the hirer appoint them against the 40 odd other people applying fir the post or have I understood it wrong

Jazzy-J
7-9-11, 17:58
I'm pointing out your attitude is why the rooney rule is important. It forces teams to scout out managers for potential and not just automatically disqualify them because they may not have been given the opportunity.

My attitude? What attitude is that? I'll ask you to be specific if you wouldn't mind.

Fowi
7-9-11, 18:10
So we have arrived at a place where Houghton should be a PL manager because he's somewhat black.

Jazzy-J
7-9-11, 18:13
My attitude? What attitude is that? I'll ask you to be specific if you wouldn't mind.

???

Would it help if I told you I'm half Jamaican and half Trinidadian?