View Full Version : Current Squad vs 2010 Squad
Let's compare the squad right now to what we had around 18 months ago. How do you think our present squad compares?
It's 2010 vs 2012, and the better player is in that position bold.
GK:
Reina vs Reina
Jones vs Doni
RB:
Johnson vs Johnson
Degen vs Kelly
Darby vs Flanagan
CB:
Skrtel vs Skrtel
Agger vs Agger
Carragher vs Carragher
Kyrgiakos vs Coates
Ayala vs Wilson
LB:
Konchesky vs Enrique
Aurelio vs Aurelio
Insua vs Robinson
MID:
Lucas vs Lucas
Poulsen vs Spearing
Gerrard vs Gerrard
Meireles vs Henderson
Jovanovic vs Downing
Maxi vs Maxi
Aquilani vs Adam
Shelvey vs Shelvey
FOR:
Torres vs Carroll
Cole vs Suarez
Babel vs Bellamy
Kuyt vs Kuyt
Pacheco vs Sterling
Ngog vs Eccleston
Now obviously some of the match-ups aren't precise. But just talking generally, in terms of squad depth, it looks like the score is:
"2010" 11 vs 16 "2012"
There are some that you can argue about, but those are mostly squad players or reserves or players that barely got a chance.
How about just the first teamers? Out of the 16 players that made up the regular 1st team squad:
"2010" 7 vs 9 "2012"
There can be no doubt that in most respects, our current squad is better now. But, to be perfectly honest, I thought the 2012 lot would be much further ahead of the 2010 squad, and they actually aren't in some respects (particularly midfield/attack). It's pretty clear what we need to do this summer, and hopefully when we compare the 2012 (Winter vintage) to the 2010, it will be a much more different case. Striker and creative midfielders are paramount!
YNWA
gingeZizou82
6-3-12, 16:13
How is Robinson in any way better than Insua? And you have judged this on what 3 appearences?
I think we've made a single improvement to our starting eleven despite the money spent and sheer amount of players arriving/departing.
The only one I would disagree with is:
Aquilani vs Henderson
Aquilani for me just never had the heart or drive to make it in the premier league, I posted a long thread about him a good while ago, his drive in preseason a time when we were lacking key players for qualifiers just wasnt there and he looked like he couldnt care less. I think Henderson has had much more of an impact thus far than Aquilani had.
But apart from that I agree with everything else.
How is Robinson in any way better than Insua? And you have judged this on what 3 appearences?
And I don't think 2012 Reina is better than 2010 record clean sheet Reina
Panic-Button
6-3-12, 16:16
Maxi did nothing to show he was better two years ago that he has been since Kenny has come in. I know by logic, age should be a factor, but I cant see it.
How is Robinson in any way better than Insua? And you have judged this on what 3 appearences?
That's a fair one, but my reasoning is that 18 months ago Insua was simply awful. Last season, when Robinson played, he was exceptional for his age and didn't look out of place.
Insua at his best is obviously better than the handful of Robinson's appearances but that wasn't the case, in my eyes. Tough decision though, your point of view is equally valid.
gingeZizou82
6-3-12, 16:19
The only one I would disagree with is:
Aquilani vs Henderson
Aquilani for me just never had the heart or drive to make it in the premier league, I posted a long thread about him a good while ago, his drive in preseason a time when we were lacking key players for qualifiers just wasnt there and he looked like he couldnt care less. I think Henderson has had much more of an impact thus far than Aquilani had.
But apart from that I agree with everything else.
Did you make a thread about the other 20 players who who's attitude and performances were even worse though? Some of which are still here?
The only one I would disagree with is:
Aquilani vs Henderson
Aquilani for me just never had the heart or drive to make it in the premier league, I posted a long thread about him a good while ago, his drive in preseason a time when we were lacking key players for qualifiers just wasnt there and he looked like he couldnt care less. I think Henderson has had much more of an impact thus far than Aquilani had.
But apart from that I agree with everything else.
That was one of the difficult match ups. They are different players, to be honest. Maybe Aquilani vs Adam and Meireles vs Henderson would be better?
But either way, 2010 Aquilani is a better player than Henderson right now. Obviously he doesn't want to be here, but it just highlights that we are missing a creative and classy midfielder, with both him and Meireles gone.
Maxi did nothing to show he was better two years ago that he has been since Kenny has come in. I know by logic, age should be a factor, but I cant see it.
Right now, Maxi's not even being considered for the first team, that's my sole reasoning. He's only appeared for us 10 times this season.
AnfieldSouth41
6-3-12, 16:25
The Clear improvements look like The 2 Full back positions.
The obvious area we've weakend is Centre Mid with the loss of Aquilani & Miereles and the decline of Gerrard. This seriously needs looking at in the Summer. A quality centre mid & a quality right sided player is needed.
Did you make a thread about the other 20 players who who's attitude and performances were even worse though? Some of which are still here?
He was a "senior" player in a team of kids, playing against FC nobody and he way off the pace and showed little hunger at the time, he had his chance to really show some passion and fight and in my opinion didnt that was the time I gave up on him.
Other players that played those qualifiers were kids or fringe players and most of them improved or showed some spark, the ones that didnt are now gone.
That was one of the difficult match ups. They are different players, to be honest. Maybe Aquilani vs Adam and Meireles vs Henderson would be better?
But either way, 2010 Aquilani is a better player than Henderson right now. Obviously he doesn't want to be here, but it just highlights that we are missing a creative and classy midfielder, with both him and Meireles gone.
I thik Aquilani vs Adam and Meireles would have been a better match up mate.
And I think you'd see Adam has been slightly better for us that Aquilani but on the other hand Meireles was 100 times better than henderson, shame he wanted out really.
The Clear improvements look like The 2 Full back positions.
The obvious area we've weakend is Centre Mid with the loss of Aquilani & Miereles and the decline of Gerrard. This seriously needs looking at in the Summer. A quality centre mid & a quality right sided player is needed.
Completely agree.
Think our whole defence is much more solid now. But midfield:
Gerrard, Aquilani, Lucas & Meireles vs Gerrard, Adam, Lucas & Henderson
Only Lucas has improved, and he's been knocked out for most of the season.
Up front we've added Suarez's creativity but lost Torres' finishing - and that's been the worst part of this season, poor finishing.
Let's compare the squad right now to what we had around 18 months ago. How do you think our present squad compares?
It's 2010 vs 2012, and the better player is in that position bold.
GK:
Reina vs Reina
Jones vs Doni
RB:
Johnson vs Johnson
Degen vs Kelly
Darby vs Flanagan
CB:
Skrtel vs Skrtel
Agger vs Agger
Carragher vs Carragher
Kyrgiakos vs Coates
Ayala vs Wilson
LB:
Konchesky vs Enrique
Aurelio vs Aurelio
Insua vs Robinson
MID:
Lucas vs Lucas
Poulsen vs Spearing
Gerrard vs Gerrard
Meireles vs Adam
Jovanovic vs Downing
Maxi vs Maxi
Aquilani vs Henderson
Shelvey vs Shelvey
FOR:
Torres vs Carroll
Cole vs Suarez
Babel vs Bellamy
Kuyt vs Kuyt
Pacheco vs Sterling
Ngog vs Eccleston
Now obviously some of the match-ups aren't precise. But just talking generally, in terms of squad depth, it looks like the score is:
"2010" 11 vs 16 "2012"
There are some that you can argue about, but those are mostly squad players or reserves or players that barely got a chance.
How about just the first teamers? Out of the 16 players that made up the regular 1st team squad:
"2010" 7 vs 9 "2012"
There can be no doubt that in most respects, our current squad is better now. But, to be perfectly honest, I thought the 2012 lot would be much further ahead of the 2010 squad, and they actually aren't in some respects (particularly midfield/attack). It's pretty clear what we need to do this summer, and hopefully when we compare the 2012 (Winter vintage) to the 2010, it will be a much more different case. Striker and creative midfielders are paramount!
YNWA
Its all irelevant.
City are now going no-wherr for the next decade
Utd have improved since 2010.
Spurs have improved drastically since 2010,
Chelsea have stagnated since 2010 however are still a level above us with a fresh manager to join with serious funds available,
and arsenal inspite of having world-class players and their captain taken away from them are right up there fighting for 4th..
Weve slipped further behind no matter what way we compare both squads above,
Let's compare the squad right now to what we had around 18 months ago. How do you think our present squad compares?
It's 2010 vs 2012, and the better player is in that position bold.
GK:
Reina vs Reina
Jones vs Doni
RB:
Johnson vs Johnson
Degen vs Kelly
Darby vs Flanagan
CB:
Skrtel vs Skrtel
Agger vs Agger
Carragher vs Carragher
Kyrgiakos vs Coates
Ayala vs Wilson
LB:
Konchesky vs Enrique
Aurelio vs Aurelio
Insua vs Robinson
MID:
Lucas vs Lucas
Poulsen vs Spearing
Gerrard vs Gerrard
Meireles vs Adam
Jovanovic vs Downing
Maxi vs Maxi
Aquilani vs Henderson
Shelvey vs Shelvey
FOR:
Torres vs Carroll
Cole vs Suarez
Babel vs Bellamy
Kuyt vs Kuyt
Pacheco vs Sterling
Ngog vs Eccleston
Now obviously some of the match-ups aren't precise. But just talking generally, in terms of squad depth, it looks like the score is:
"2010" 11 vs 16 "2012"
There are some that you can argue about, but those are mostly squad players or reserves or players that barely got a chance.
How about just the first teamers? Out of the 16 players that made up the regular 1st team squad:
"2010" 7 vs 9 "2012"
There can be no doubt that in most respects, our current squad is better now. But, to be perfectly honest, I thought the 2012 lot would be much further ahead of the 2010 squad, and they actually aren't in some respects (particularly midfield/attack). It's pretty clear what we need to do this summer, and hopefully when we compare the 2012 (Winter vintage) to the 2010, it will be a much more different case. Striker and creative midfielders are paramount!
YNWA
Its all irelevant.
City are now going no-where for the next decade
Utd have improved since 2010.
Spurs have improved drastically since 2010,
Chelsea have stagnated since 2010 however are still a level above us with a fresh manager to join with serious funds available,
and arsenal inspite of having world-class players and their captain taken away from them are right up there fighting for 4th..
Weve slipped further behind no matter what way we compare both squads above,
Completely agree.
Think our whole defence is much more solid now. But midfield:
Gerrard, Aquilani, Lucas & Meireles vs Gerrard, Adam, Lucas & Henderson
Only Lucas has improved, and he's been knocked out for most of the season.
Up front we've added Suarez's creativity but lost Torres' finishing - and that's been the worst part of this season, poor finishing.
I think as I think you pointed out earlier we need a player that will break late into the box and for Gerrard to sit deeper.
A Hamsik type player would be ideal in my opinion.
Its all irelevant.
City are now going no-where for the next decade
Utd have improved since 2010.
Spurs have improved drastically since 2010,
Chelsea have stagnated since 2010 however are still a level above us with a fresh manager to join with serious funds available,
and arsenal inspite of having world-class players and their captain taken away from them are right up there fighting for 4th..
Weve slipped further behind no matter what way we compare both squads above,
Hard to argue with - then what's the answer?
The only one I would disagree with is:
Aquilani vs Henderson
Aquilani for me just never had the heart or drive to make it in the premier league, I posted a long thread about him a good while ago, his drive in preseason a time when we were lacking key players for qualifiers just wasnt there and he looked like he couldnt care less. I think Henderson has had much more of an impact thus far than Aquilani had.
But apart from that I agree with everything else.
He was quality in the games he played under Benitez, but seemed to lose his desire under Roy. Against Atletico in the Europa League at Anfield he looked genuinely happy to be playing for us.
Let's compare the squad right now to what we had around 18 months ago. How do you think our present squad compares?
It's 2010 vs 2012, and the better player is in that position bold.
GK:
Reina vs Reina
Jones vs Doni
RB:
Johnson vs Johnson
Degen vs Kelly
Darby vs Flanagan
CB:
Skrtel vs Skrtel
Agger vs Agger
Carragher vs Carragher
Kyrgiakos vs Coates
Ayala vs Wilson
LB:
Konchesky vs Enrique
Aurelio vs Aurelio
Insua vs Robinson
MID:
Lucas vs Lucas
Poulsen vs Spearing
Gerrard vs Gerrard
Meireles vs Henderson
Jovanovic vs Downing
Maxi vs Maxi
Aquilani vs Adam
Shelvey vs Shelvey
FOR:
Torres vs Carroll
Cole vs Suarez
Babel vs Bellamy
Kuyt vs Kuyt
Pacheco vs Sterling
Ngog vs Eccleston
Now obviously some of the match-ups aren't precise. But just talking generally, in terms of squad depth, it looks like the score is:
"2010" 11 vs 16 "2012"
There are some that you can argue about, but those are mostly squad players or reserves or players that barely got a chance.
How about just the first teamers? Out of the 16 players that made up the regular 1st team squad:
"2010" 7 vs 9 "2012"
There can be no doubt that in most respects, our current squad is better now. But, to be perfectly honest, I thought the 2012 lot would be much further ahead of the 2010 squad, and they actually aren't in some respects (particularly midfield/attack). It's pretty clear what we need to do this summer, and hopefully when we compare the 2012 (Winter vintage) to the 2010, it will be a much more different case. Striker and creative midfielders are paramount!
YNWA
Downing has been good the last couple of weeks, but if you look over the course of a season, it's tough to say that he was any better than Janovich
And I don't think 2012 Reina is better than 2010 record clean sheet Reina
I'd argue that once Benitez left, Reina definitely dipped for a while. 18 months ago we were under Roy, and Reina wasn't playing well then.
gingeZizou82
6-3-12, 16:49
He was a "senior" player in a team of kids, playing against FC nobody and he way off the pace and showed little hunger at the time, he had his chance to really show some passion and fight and in my opinion didnt that was the time I gave up on him.
Other players that played those qualifiers were kids or fringe players and most of them improved or showed some spark, the ones that didnt are now gone.
He had some very productive games on that Asia tour and probably already knew he was on his way out toward the end of pre season considering his 3rd manager in as many years had just bought two more players that played in central midfield. Steve Clarke and Kenny both praised him during that pre-season as well even though he was on the way out.
For Hodgson even our best senior players had developed awful attitudes. Aquilani was one of many. Alot of them are still here.
I'd argue that once Benitez left, Reina definitely dipped for a while. 18 months ago we were under Roy, and Reina wasn't playing well then.
When Rafa left Xavi Valero, (his goalkeeping coach) left too. I'd say that had more to do with it. Reina was immense in 2010, I can't imagine him winning games on his own anymore like he did vs Everton.
He's still brilliant though.
He had some very productive games on that Asia tour and probably already knew he was on his way out toward the end of pre season considering his 3rd manager in as many years had just bought two more players that played in central midfield. Steve Clarke and Kenny both praised him during that pre-season as well even though he was on the way out.
For Hodgson even our best senior players had developed awful attitudes. Aquilani was one of many. Alot of them are still here.
I'd agree with this.
But in the end, this Aquilani debate will rage on until we sign someone great to make us forget about him. Some people think he didn't get the chance, others think he blew his chance. We'll never really know.
My main point is that a midfield of Gerrard, Lucas, Meireles and Aquilani is better than a midfield of Gerrard, Lucas, Adam and Henderson. The only upgrade is Lucas, the other three options are worse right now.
Did you make a thread about the other 20 players who who's attitude and performances were even worse though? Some of which are still here?
We have players still at the club with a bad attitude? Carroll, Bellamy, Kuyt, Suarez, Downing, Maxi, Lucas, Gerrard, Adam, Henderson, Spearing, Shelvey, Johnson, Enrique, Flannagan, Coates, Carragher, Agger, Skrtel, Reina...........struggling to see who are the ones with the bad attitude.
To a man each one puts in a shift, regardless of form. To a man not one sulks on the pitch, not one ever complains about being left out. I'm confused who are the guys with the bad attitude?
gingeZizou82
6-3-12, 16:58
I'd agree with this.
But in the end, this Aquilani debate will rage on until we sign someone great to make us forget about him. Some people think he didn't get the chance, others think he blew his chance. We'll never really know.
My main point is that a midfield of Gerrard, Lucas, Meireles and Aquilani is better than a three of Gerrard, Lucas, Adam and Henderson. The only upgrade is Lucas, the other three options are worse right now.
Hard to argue with that TBH.
In fairness Roy wasn't exactly the most inspiring manager. He (Aquilani) was dire under Roy, but great under Rafa and in the few pre-season games under Kenny.
I'd agree with this.
But in the end, this Aquilani debate will rage on until we sign someone great to make us forget about him. Some people think he didn't get the chance, others think he blew his chance. We'll never really know.
My main point is that a midfield of Gerrard, Lucas, Meireles and Aquilani is better than a three of Gerrard, Lucas, Adam and Henderson. The only upgrade is Lucas, the other three options are worse right now.
Some people would agree, yet somehow it doesn't really stand up. Did we ever win a trophy with Mascherano, Gerrard, Lucas, Aquilani and Meireles? Correct me if i'm wrong but with 4 of them we finished 7th and then we were 12th when aquilani loaned out and Meireles came in.............explain?
reina is the same probably.
gingeZizou82
6-3-12, 17:05
We have players still at the club with a bad attitude? Carroll, Bellamy, Kuyt, Suarez, Downing, Maxi, Lucas, Gerrard, Adam, Henderson, Spearing, Shelvey, Johnson, Enrique, Flannagan, Coates, Carragher, Agger, Skrtel, Reina...........struggling to see who are the ones with the bad attitude.
To a man each one puts in a shift, regardless of form. To a man not one sulks on the pitch, not one ever complains about being left out. I'm confused who are the guys with the bad attitude?
Carroll has been held back by his attitude since he arrived and he has made Robbie Keane look positive. It took rumours we wanted rid to change that and Downing has been happy to coast along for months until recently.
Kuyt, Gerrard, Johnson, Lucas, Carragher, Agger, Skrtel and Reina all had their collective bottom lips out when Hodgson was here and their negative attitudes should of stayed behind closed doors, but they brought them on to the pitch all too often. They didn't work hard enough for that manager and very few people called them on it.
Carroll has been held back by his attitude since he arrived and he has made Robbie Keane look positive. It took rumours we wanted rid to change that and Downing has been happy to coast along for months until recently.
Kuyt, Gerrard, Johnson, Lucas, Carragher, Agger, Skrtel and Reina all had their collective bottom lips out when Hodgson was here and their negative attitudes should of stayed behind closed doors, but they brought them on to the pitch all too often. They didn't work hard enough for that manager and very few people called them on it.
:confused:
He was the only player who consistently worked hard!
The only one I would disagree with is:
Aquilani vs Henderson
Aquilani for me just never had the heart or drive to make it in the premier league, I posted a long thread about him a good while ago, his drive in preseason a time when we were lacking key players for qualifiers just wasnt there and he looked like he couldnt care less. I think Henderson has had much more of an impact thus far than Aquilani had.
But apart from that I agree with everything else.
Aqua did more in less than 10 games than Adam and Henderson did COMBINED so far.
I like Hendo actually, but your statement is so far from the truth.
Some people would agree, yet somehow it doesn't really stand up. Did we ever win a trophy with Mascherano, Gerrard, Lucas, Aquilani and Meireles? Correct me if i'm wrong but with 4 of them we finished 7th and then we were 12th when aquilani loaned out and Meireles came in.............explain?
In fairness, I'm just talking about the quality of the players. You're now bringing in other factors.
2012 we have Kenny Dalglish, whereas 18 months ago we had Roy flippin Hodgson! No comparison. That's not the issue, we are just comparing squads. There will always be other factors.
Obviously some players are upgrades:
Enrique vs Konchesky
Suarez vs Cole
But others are undeniably worse:
Torres vs Carroll
Meireles/Aquilani vs Adam/Henderson
Now personally I think that Adam should be playing more advanced, and Henderson could become really good as a CM. But right now? No comparison in terms of quality.
Aquilani is more debatable but Meireles despite his faults was sensational under Dalglish - he was PFA Fans Player of the Year! We've missed his quality, you have to admit that.
T
Some people would agree, yet somehow it doesn't really stand up. Did we ever win a trophy with Mascherano, Gerrard, Lucas, Aquilani and Meireles? Correct me if i'm wrong but with 4 of them we finished 7th and then we were 12th when aquilani loaned out and Meireles came in.............explain?
that's stupid.
did we win anything with Torres? No. So is Carroll better than Torres was?
gingeZizou82
6-3-12, 17:14
:confused:
He was the only player who consistently worked hard!
Take him out of that list and we are still left with several senior players that didn't.
In fairness, I'm just talking about the quality of the players. You're now bringing in other factors.
2012 we have Kenny Dalglish, whereas 18 months ago we had Roy flippin Hodgson! No comparison. That's not the issue, we are just comparing squads. There will always be other factors.
Obviously some players are upgrades:
Enrique vs Konchesky
Suarez vs Cole
But others are undeniably worse:
Torres vs Carroll
Meireles/Aquilani vs Adam/Henderson
Now personally I think that Adam should be playing more advanced, and Henderson could become really good as a CM. But right now? No comparison in terms of quality.
Aquilani is more debatable but Meireles despite his faults was sensational under Dalglish - he was PFA Fans Player of the Year! We've missed his quality, you have to admit that.
T
The league table tells a different story, KK after rebuilding the squad with 120mill investment has 1, just1 point more than Roy did. UNACCEPTABLE
TheDarknessIsCalling
6-3-12, 17:17
Not sure comparing players ever proves anything, makes a nice little exercise in convincing yourself of something, but it is how the players work as a team. Not least comparing players in a X is better than Y fashion ignores how much by and the overall abilities not only individual but to play in/as a team.
Not sure comparing players ever proves anything, makes a nice little exercise in convincing yourself of something, but it is how the players work as a team. Not least comparing players in a X is better than Y fashion ignores how much by and the overall abilities not only individual but to play in/as a team.
Sure. But this is more about squad depth and generally comparing the progress (and backwards steps) we've taken as a squad.
Obviously the first team is paramount but it's a squad game now, as every manager around says.
When was Aquilani in the 2010 squad...I must of missed something
Afterthought
6-3-12, 17:48
Not sure I'd agree with some of your matches... I'll give it a go. If I don't think there's an obvious winner I'll chose neither, but say why I don't think there's a choice.
GK:
Reina vs Reina - Hard to tell which is better, if there's a difference, it isn't significant. I'd probably shade 2010
Jones vs Doni - Neither played, really. Unfair to choose one over the other.
RB:
Johnson vs Johnson - Identical.
Degen vs Kelly
Darby vs Flanagan - Much the same. Darby hardly played, but nor has Flanagan this season.
CB:
Skrtel vs Skrtel
Agger vs Agger - Same, or little difference
Carragher vs Carragher
Kyrgiakos vs Coates
Ayala vs Wilson
LB:
Konchesky vs Enrique
Aurelio vs Aurelio
Insua vs Robinson
MID:
Lucas vs Lucas
Spearing vs Spearing (Perhaps not his fault as he's playing in an unfamiliar position for him as a DM, with a lot of extra work to do because of Adam)
Gerrard vs Gerrard
Meireles vs Henderson
Jovanovic vs Downing
Maxi vs Maxi
Aquilani vs Adam
Shelvey vs Shelvey
Poulsen vs ? :D
FOR:
Torres vs Carroll
Cole vs Suarez
Babel vs Bellamy
Kuyt vs Kuyt
Pacheco vs Sterling
Ngog vs Eccleston
So for me 13 - 9 in favour of 2010. (Plus a cheeky Poulsen which I didn't count in the scores... :P You seemed to have forgotten Spearing was here 2010.)
I also think the forwards are a little debateable in term of match-ups. if it were:
Torres vs Suarez
Ngog vs Carroll
Cole vs Bellamy
Kuyt vs Kuyt
Babel vs Sterling
Pacheco vs Eccleston.
It might be 4-2 in favour of 2010, rather than 3-3, and 14-8 over all.
Regardless, for me the squad's gone backwards in terms of ability.
and when did cole become a forward
torres was key. suarez doesn't even come close to the finishing torres had. torres needed 5 ball contacts the whole game to change a game. suarez has a great technique and needs a striker like torres was, now it would be cavani, about carroll I don't think I have to talk.
I don't agree with several comparisons but what I mostly disagree with how it doesn't compare the magnitude of difference. Konchesky vs Enrique is no comparison. Enrique is 10000x the player. Going the other way, Meireles/Aquilani are 10000x the player Adam/Henderson are.
It's clear we've gotten better some places and worse others. The issue is, after 100m+ spent, with 30-40m net spending, you expect to improve in a relatively dramatic way. We haven't. That's the issue. I still think we're about £50-100m away from being a consistent top 4 team and that's assuming we actually buy good players.
I don't agree with several comparisons but what I mostly disagree with how it doesn't compare the magnitude of difference. Konchesky vs Enrique is no comparison. Enrique is 10000x the player. Going the other way, Meireles/Aquilani are 10000x the player Adam/Henderson are.
It's clear we've gotten better some places and worse others. The issue is, after 100m+ spent, with 30-40m net spending, you expect to improve in a relatively dramatic way. We haven't. That's the issue. I still think we're about £50-100m away from being a consistent top 4 team and that's assuming we actually buy good players.
Very true. But I think part of it is where we've "regressed" is also where we've gotten substantially younger. How anyone puts Soto as a win over Coates I will never know. Sure he might be slightly more polished and experienced, but he was like 30 then and Seb is only 21. As far as ability at the time this might be a push, but the age factor tips the scale in Coates favor.
Also, 2010 Agger was out almost the entire year with injuries. How could he be better than 2012 Agger, who up until the rib injury was starting every game for us.
Spearing is another guy I think has substantially improved since 2010.
I think we'll see the young guys like Flanno, Seb, Henderson and Carroll come good within the next two years. Might be during the run-in, might be early next year, or it might take a spell to see them truly mature.
The point is, if you're going to downgrade you better get younger. I think we have done that. And the wage bill has been trimmed substantially. All in all I am comfortable with where we're at right now, 2 good signings in attack will have us where we need to be next year.
Now we have a proper squad. Not one of the players on the list now cant play, and none of them are complete disasters when playing... they all have ability.
Compare it to players such as Degen, Darby, Poulsen, Jovanovic, Konchesky etc
They are the old players we all used to complain about, now people complain about Adam- who has the most assists for us this season, Henderson - Promising youngster, playing well out of position, England u12 captain and full international, Downing- Regular in the England squad, Kuyt - Regular in the Holland team which got to the final in the world cup not so long ago.
It shows how far we have come in such a short space of time. We have a top squad who can rival anybody's in the PL. However we are just lacking 1-2 class players who can go straight into the starting 11 to make us complete.
Now we have a proper squad. Not one of the players on the list now cant play, and none of them are complete disasters when playing... they all have ability.
Compare it to players such as Degen, Darby, Poulsen, Jovanovic, Konchesky etc
They are the old players we all used to complain about, now people complain about Adam- who has the most assists for us this season, Henderson - Promising youngster, playing well out of position, England u12 captain and full international, Downing- Regular in the England squad, Kuyt - Regular in the Holland team which got to the final in the world cup not so long ago.
It shows how far we have come in such a short space of time. We have a top squad who can rival anybody's in the PL. However we are just lacking 1-2 class players who can go straight into the starting 11 to make us complete.
Have to agree with this, and the previous point about age.
Personally, I look at Skrtel and see that he's matured beyond all comprehension, he's 10 times the player he was 18 months ago.
And then the youth element - Kyri vs Coates is a great example.
But I would say that there are also clear deficiencies there, that's what surprised me when I made the thread. I knew about the youth element, but still expected there to be an all-round difference in quality.
I complete agree that we have no real brainless wasters, and you can call on anyone to do a job. However, we are definitely missing a clinical striker, so so much. Carroll vs Torres is just have really made a massive difference on its own.
And the midfield, I agree that Henderson could be great for us long-term. Personally, I can see a Lucas & Henderson CM partnership being superb in a couple of years.
However, there is no doubt that this season we are massively missing Meireles. Aquilani is a different issue, but Meireles was a big loss and I'm really starting to see that we made a massive error selling him to Chelsea.
And we definitely need much more creatively in our midfield. I'd argue that Adam is the only one that takes risks, and Stevie's just not the same physical phenomen he was a few years back.
I'd say there is a lot of work to be done, and I'm hoping Commoli really gets moving because we need 3 clearly talented players to go straight into the first team.
I'd say we've got a magic 8 in Reina, Johnson, Skrtel, Agger, Enrique, Lucas, Gerrard and Suarez. But they haven't played together ONCE this season, so we need to bring in 3 top quality players - a striker, a right winger and a creative midfielder.
Our squad is clearly lacking those 3 players.
The obvious area we've weakend is Centre Mid with the loss of Aquilani & Miereles and the decline of Gerrard. This seriously needs looking at in the Summer. ...
If Lucas and Gerrard had been available all season we'd have looked good in midfield. Henderson and Adam would have been relegated to the bench; they're not bad players, just not of the quality we should be relying on week-in week-out.
I hope our shopping list for next season includes a proven striker, attacking central midfielder and a quality winger.
If Lucas and Gerrard had been available all season we'd have looked good in midfield. Henderson and Adam would have been relegated to the bench; they're not bad players, just not of the quality we should be relying on week-in week-out.
I hope our shopping list for next season includes a proven striker, attacking central midfielder and a quality winger.
That's completely true.
However in football, you get injuries. Lucas has been rock solid over the years, hardly ever misses a game. But he got unlucky, and ruled out for an entire season. He was at that moment our most important player by some distance, and we haven't looked the same.
As for Stevie G, he's now officially someone that is injury-prone. Sorry, but it's just true. He needs protecting from himself. He shouldn't have played for England, and the way Man Utd protect their older players is incredible, ditto AC Milan.
We need to learn from these clubs, players like Beckham, Scholes, Giggs, Maldini.
In the meantime? We can't rely on Stevie to start 38 PL games a year. Frankly, 20 would be amazing. He should be a luxury player for us - wheel him out against the big teams, and let him rest appropriately against others.
But in the meantime, we need - as you say - quality replacements.
Now we have a proper squad. Not one of the players on the list now cant play, and none of them are complete disasters when playing... they all have ability.
Compare it to players such as Degen, Darby, Poulsen, Jovanovic, Konchesky etc
They are the old players we all used to complain about, now people complain about Adam- who has the most assists for us this season, Henderson - Promising youngster, playing well out of position, England u12 captain and full international, Downing- Regular in the England squad, Kuyt - Regular in the Holland team which got to the final in the world cup not so long ago.
It shows how far we have come in such a short space of time. We have a top squad who can rival anybody's in the PL. However we are just lacking 1-2 class players who can go straight into the starting 11 to make us complete.
Cool! At last some optimism to help me out.
In my head I'm adding those 2 class players for next season! Cavani and Lavezzi? Higuain and Hazzard?
Shut up! It's my head so I can think what I want!
Kyrgiakos was only better than Coates at looking good with long hair. Coates is better at everything else.
Kyrgiakos was only better than Coates at looking good with long hair. Coates is better at everything else.
I reckon Kyrgiakos would win in a fight too.
Now we have a proper squad. Not one of the players on the list now cant play, and none of them are complete disasters when playing... they all have ability.
Compare it to players such as Degen, Darby, Poulsen, Jovanovic, Konchesky etc
They are the old players we all used to complain about, now people complain about Adam- who has the most assists for us this season, Henderson - Promising youngster, playing well out of position, England u12 captain and full international, Downing- Regular in the England squad, Kuyt - Regular in the Holland team which got to the final in the world cup not so long ago.
It shows how far we have come in such a short space of time. We have a top squad who can rival anybody's in the PL. However we are just lacking 1-2 class players who can go straight into the starting 11 to make us complete.
This explains so much about Henderson :D
I reckon Kyrgiakos would win in a fight too.
True.
Shame he was slower than a slow man with lead boots that turned slower than the Titanic.
Kyrgiakos was only better than Coates at looking good with long hair. Coates is better at everything else.
The same player voted man of the match three times in four games by Liverpool fans?
The same Kyrgiakos who was voted player of the month Jan 2010 by this site?
Coates has all the promise in the World but do we need to ****-off a player who gave his all in the shirt?
The same player voted man of the match three times in four games by Liverpool fans?
The same Kyrgiakos who was voted player of the month Jan 2010 by this site?
Coates has all the promise in the World but do we need to ****-off a player who gave his all in the shirt?
Completely agree.
This is why I rated him better in the OP. People forget that he actually played well here for a while. Coates has played 7 times, thus far.
The same player voted man of the match three times in four games by Liverpool fans?
The same Kyrgiakos who was voted player of the month Jan 2010 by this site?
Coates has all the promise in the World but do we need to ****-off a player who gave his all in the shirt?
Cult hero. I've got no problem with that. I liked him.
Was he actually good enough, no, no chance.
The same player voted man of the match three times in four games by Liverpool fans?
The same Kyrgiakos who was voted player of the month Jan 2010 by this site?
Coates has all the promise in the World but do we need to ****-off a player who gave his all in the shirt?
The same player that gave away penalties and free kicks like a pedo dishes out sweets, I did like him alot, but the idea of him becoming a permanent member of the first team made me worry.
Completely agree.
This is why I rated him better in the OP. People forget that he actually played well here for a while. Coates has played 7 times, thus far.
I haven't forgot him looking dominant in the air and putting in some good performances.
I also haven't forgot how slow he was. How I held my breath every time he went near anybody in the box. His rashness in tackles on the half way line.
Soto was cult hero at a time when LFC fans were looking for some positives in a what turned out to be a dire season.
Soto came across as a good, likeable and hard working man. However, he wasn't good enough.
The same player that gave away penalties and free kicks like a pedo dishes out sweets, I did like him alot, but the idea of him becoming a permanent member of the first team made me worry.
At his age that was never an option ...
He was a hard working, honest 100% effort player ... Made mistakes, yes ... but made an equal number of great tackles and bagged a goal or two.
Deserves respect.
Cult hero. I've got no problem with that. I liked him.
Was he actually good enough, no, no chance.
Agree with the cult hero bit - complete with nickname :D
But The Greek was definitely a solid 4th choice CB. He just had a few nightmare games, under a nightmare manager it must be said.
People on the Coates bandwagon need to wait until he really gets a chance. Personally, I would play he from now until Agger is back, unless it's a big cup game. How else will he become third choice?
The same player that gave away penalties and free kicks like a pedo dishes out sweets, I did like him alot, but the idea of him becoming a permanent member of the first team made me worry.
People confuse cult heroes with good players.
Thank God Nunez never reached cult hero status!
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At his age that was never an option ...
He was a hard working, honest 100% effort player ... Made mistakes, yes ... but made an equal number of great tackles and bagged a goal or two.
Deserves respect.
And he gets it. Does this change the negatives we highlighted? Not at all.
To be honest, I can't believe one of the negative brigade is pulling some else up on something so light hearted and flippant.
People confuse cult heroes with good players.
Thank God Nunez never reached cult hero status!
Nunez? Oh man totally forgot about him!
Some of the players we've had here over the last decade :FP:
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Deserves respect.
Respect, yes, an extended contract, no.
Agree with the cult hero bit - complete with nickname :D
But The Greek was definitely a solid 4th choice CB. He just had a few nightmare games, under a nightmare manager it must be said.
People on the Coates bandwagon need to wait until he really gets a chance. Personally, I would play he from now until Agger is back, unless it's a big cup game. How else will he become third choice?
Is it a bandwagon or is it people recognising his qualities and his performances for Uruguay last summer?
And he gets it. Does this change the negatives we highlighted? Not at all.
To be honest, I can't believe one of the negative brigade is pulling some else up on something so light hearted and flippant.
Yeah, The Titanic gag was maximum respect ...
You don't rate him Ham' thats cool ... but why don't you wait until Coates actually has a game or two before using him as a stick to beat the Greek with ...
Is it a bandwagon or is it people recognising his qualities and his performances for Uruguay last summer?
It could well be either, personally i watched Uruguays games in the tournament, and the young lad really did look a cut above the rest.
Nunez? Oh man totally forgot about him!
Some of the players we've had here over the last decade :FP:
Nunez was definately worth every bit of his fee.
We asked for 8.1m for Owen. Madrid said 'we'll give you 8m and this lad we found wandering around the training ground'.
Is it a bandwagon or is it people recognising his qualities and his performances for Uruguay last summer?
I thought, and still do, that Coates was brought in as a promising young CB, yes... But primarily as a fellow countryman for Suarez.
Nothing I've seen thus far makes me think anything different. Hopefully Kenny will blood him into the first team whilst Agger is injured and we've got dead rubber PL games now, but it's fair to say that Coates is not threatening the excellent Agger-Skrtel partnership we've seen this season.
The only thing threatening that partnership is Agger himself :D
Must admit, Agger has lasted longer this season than i thought he would.
Yeah, The Titanic gag was maximum respect ...
You don't rate him Ham' thats cool ... but why don't you wait until Coates actually has a game or two before using him as a stick to beat the Greek with ...
Do you think Soto thinks that he's quick and turns sharply? I don't.
Coates (for Uruguay at the Copa) looked better than Soto ever did.
I thought, and still do, that Coates was brought in as a promising young CB, yes... But primarily as a fellow countryman for Suarez.
Nothing I've seen thus far makes me think anything different. Hopefully Kenny will blood him into the first team whilst Agger is injured and we've got dead rubber PL games now, but it's fair to say that Coates is not threatening the excellent Agger-Skrtel partnership we've seen this season.
The only thing threatening that partnership is Agger himself :D
Disagree massively there Jesal.
Young player of the Copa America and his performances that went it are the reason he is here. Him choosing us because Luis is here is more likely to me.
Do you think Soto thinks that he's quick and turns sharply? I don't.
Coates (for Uruguay at the Copa) looked better than Soto ever did.
And Diouf looked world-class at a World cup ...
Like I said Ham' ... Coates could be a sensational player for us and has a bright future ahead ... but leave Soto out of it ... In no way deserves to be belittled and laughed at.
And Diouf looked world-class at a World cup ...
Like I said Ham' ... Coates could be a sensational player for us and has a bright future ahead ... but leave Soto out of it ... In no way deserves to be belittled and laughed at.
Is this a wind up?? This thread is comparing squads and he was paired up Coates!!
Belitting some one would be making light of or down grading what they are good at, not what they are bad at!
Is this a wind up?? This thread is comparing squads and he was paired up Coates!!
Belitting some one would be making light of or down grading what they are good at, not what they are bad at!
Agreed. It's completely fair to match up The Greek and Coates, and there are definite reasons for siding with either player. Just personal taste, really.
Back to Coates...
One of the basic Moneyball rules in football is "Don't buy a player based on one successful summer tournament."
It's great advice and frankly would have saved us plenty of money over the years :D (cough - Diouf - cough)
I'm not saying that Coates isn't a good player, but you criticising The Greek for a lack of pace, yet not addressing how lacking in pace Coates is. When he plays, we have to defend deeper, same with Carra.
Previous "Best _____ Player at _____ Tournament" winners we've bragged about: Le Tallec, Pongolle, Pacheco, Diouf etc etc.
In fairness, Young Player of Copa America? Let's just wait and see. It's way too early to be making predictions about the lad.
Personally, I think Coates has actually got a long road ahead in order to break into the first team.... Just my opinion, mind, and doesn't mean he's not quality.
Themessangernr1
7-3-12, 16:08
if we did't sell our players this is how we could potentialy line up
Reina
Johnson Skrtel Agger Enrique
Mascherano Alonso
Gerrard
Bellamy Suarez
Torres
Bench:
Doni
Arbeloa
Kuyt
Downing
Caroll
Coates
Henderson
Is this a wind up?? This thread is comparing squads and he was paired up Coates!!
Belitting some one would be making light of or down grading what they are good at, not what they are bad at!
Correct ...
So you could have said ... Coates has the potential to be a far superior player ... better athlete, better prospect.
Instead ... apparently only Soto's hair is worth talking about from his time in Red and it was worth you claiming he is slower than the Titanic ...
Our recent history is filled with players who weren't up to scratch ... I've seen them all, but a select few gave EVERYTHING on the pitch they were capable of ... The Greek was one of them.
Agreed. It's completely fair to match up The Greek and Coates, and there are definite reasons for siding with either player. Just personal taste, really.
Back to Coates...
One of the basic Moneyball rules in football is "Don't buy a player based on one successful summer tournament."
It's great advice and frankly would have saved us plenty of money over the years :D (cough - Diouf - cough)
I'm not saying that Coates isn't a good player, but you criticising The Greek for a lack of pace, yet not addressing how lacking in pace Coates is. When he plays, we have to defend deeper, same with Carra.
Previous "Best _____ Player at _____ Tournament" winners we've bragged about: Le Tallec, Pongolle, Pacheco, Diouf etc etc.
In fairness, Young Player of Copa America? Let's just wait and see. It's way too early to be making predictions about the lad.
Personally, I think Coates has actually got a long road ahead in order to break into the first team.... Just my opinion, mind, and doesn't mean he's not quality.
First of all, there is slow, then there's slow.
As basing a player on a tournament, it depends how you look at it.
It is the place I watched him perform. He was fantastic. He didn't just look good in flashes, he was solid as a rock. A kid playing in a major tournament and at CB! Doesn't happen very often, does it. He looked good to me and would still be highlighting these peformances whether he received an individual accoloade or not.
The Coates example is a lot different to the Diouf one for me. As for the performing well at 'kids' tournaments, I don't even think it can be used as the same argument.
Correct ...
So you could have said ... Coates has the potential to be a far superior player ... better athlete, better prospect.
Instead ... apparently only Soto's hair is worth talking about from his time in Red and it was worth you claiming he is slower than the Titanic ...
Our recent history is filled with players who weren't up to scratch ... I've seen them all, but a select few gave EVERYTHING on the pitch they were capable of ... The Greek was one of them.
Great spin there. I said it's the only he's better than Coates at.
Afterthought
7-3-12, 17:25
Coates is potential. He could be great, but to claim he is currently better than Kyrgiakos was is laughable. Apart from the last three months, he did pretty well for us. He was bought as a stop gap solution because of no funds available, to do a job for a year or maybe two, and that's exactly what he did.
Coates has yet to even be given a real chance, started off looking a bit young and shaky, and had a good game alongside Carra in the cup. He hasn't played enough to say any more than his career in football has hardly started.
People seem to judge Kyrgiakos off his final few months, rather than the majority of his time here.
Coates is potential. He could be great, but to claim he is currently better than Kyrgiakos was is laughable. Apart from the last three months, he did pretty well for us. He was bought as a stop gap solution because of no funds available, to do a job for a year or maybe two, and that's exactly what he did.
Coates has yet to even be given a real chance, started off looking a bit young and shaky, and had a good game alongside Carra in the cup. He hasn't played enough to say any more than his career in football has hardly started.
People seem to judge Kyrgiakos off his final few months, rather than the majority of his time here.
I judged Kyrgiakos on his ability and, for me, he was pretty poor. He had the odd good game, but it was very clear that he wasn't good enough for a top premiership side. Slow, rash in the tackle, heart stopping when near a player in our box and consistently showed that his positioning was poor.
Coates's performances in the copa showed me that he is a better player than soto.
The only one I would disagree with is:
Aquilani vs Henderson
Aquilani for me just never had the heart or drive to make it in the premier league, I posted a long thread about him a good while ago, his drive in preseason a time when we were lacking key players for qualifiers just wasnt there and he looked like he couldnt care less. I think Henderson has had much more of an impact thus far than Aquilani had.
But apart from that I agree with everything else.
And I posted numerous replies citing why Aquilani was virtually our best midfield player after Gerrard, and our most suitable practitioner of 'pass-and-move' bar none; that's virtually all he does, from the start of the the game to the finish.
If you want to show me where your long post is, I wouldn't mind reading it.
SweetSilverSeven
7-3-12, 19:23
2010 vs 2011
GK:
Reina vs Reina
Jones vs Doni
RB:
Johnson vs Johnson
Degen vs Kelly
Darby vs Flanagan
CB:
Skrtel vs Skrtel
Agger vs Agger
Carragher vs Carragher
Kyrgiakos vs Coates
Ayala vs Wilson
LB:
Konchesky vs Enrique
Aurelio vs Aurelio
Insua vs Robinson (Jack will prove be a better player in the future, but Insua played and contributed more that season)
MID:
Lucas vs Lucas
Poulsen vs Spearing
Gerrard vs Gerrard
Meireles vs Henderson
Jovanovic vs Downing
Maxi vs Maxi (hasn't played as much, but has shown more quality and efficiency when he's had the gametime)
Aquilani vs Adam (Aqua's a better player, but Adam has contributed more)
Shelvey vs Shelvey
FOR:
Torres vs Carroll
Cole vs Suarez
Babel vs Bellamy
Kuyt vs Kuyt
Pacheco vs Sterling
Ngog vs Eccleston
2010 10-17 2012