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Thread: Andy Carroll, Prime Target

  1. #1 Carroll Andy Carroll, Prime Target 
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    Recently I’ve been trying to think back about notable target-men – their goalscoring records and their ability to bully defences – and how long it took them to develop their game. The evidence (which I will come to) suggests that, actually, Carroll – at just 22 – is very well developed in relation to other players of his ilk. That doesn’t mean he’ll go on to prove a smash-hit sensation – potential of all shapes and sizes has sped down the drain – but people often make the mistake of not taking the type of player into account when looking at age.

    I’ve always felt that smaller, quicker strikers peak young, and slower, bigger strikers peak later. This is a general rule, and there will of course be exceptions. As a rough guide, I feel that it has a lot of merits.

    Pace can get forwards into goalscoring chances, so an average 17-year-old with jet-heels can beat even the best defenders now and then; but without pace, a striker needs to rely on movement, cunning, positioning; and as with the arts of the centre-back, these are skills honed with time and experience. Centre-backs peak after their mid-20s, and I believe the target-man does, too.

    As hard as I’ve tried, I’m yet to discover any target-men who were at their best – or at least, already highly prolific – in their teens; I can’t find the target-man ‘major league’ equivalents of Michael Owen, Robbie Fowler, Nicolas Anelka, Fernando Torres, Lionel Messi, Kun Aguero and Wayne Rooney, who were probably capable of 20 goals a season in the strongest divisions by the age of 18. Maybe they exist, and I’ve just overlooked them, but they don’t leap as readily to mind.


    Target Style

    Andy Carroll isn’t as slow as people make out, but he doesn’t have that extra change of pace to get away from defenders, and obviously, when up against sprinters for centre-backs, he can look laboured. He has good technical ability, in terms of lay-offs and hold-up play, and has a sweetness in his left-foot that many strikers of any size would envy. However, although it can be coached, his movement off the ball isn’t yet that great.

    His status as a ‘traditional’ no.9 is based on his size and aerial ability, although at Liverpool his heading has been fairly wayward; to me, evidence of a lack of confidence, given the way he frequently rose to meet crosses with towering headers at Newcastle. Again, this sense of unease with his own game is down to developing gradually within a familiar environment, with low expectations, then dramatically yanked out of his comfort zone and suddenly expected to play like a ‘£35m player’. It takes time to develop, and it often takes time to adjust to a new club.

    I actually think that Carroll is starting to come of age for the Reds away from home; it gives him the chance to hold the ball up for Suarez and the midfield support, and it also means that he’s not facing the kind of packed defences he encounters at Anfield, where it’s more likely he’ll be crowded out. His understanding with Luis Suarez has blossomed in away games in particular, and overall – and somewhat counterintuitively – Carroll has played just behind his strike partner in most of their games together.

    With five goals in 21 matches for the Reds (albeit just 14 starts), he’s doing okay. This season, all three of his goals have come on the road, and none has been headed. Part of the problem has been his team-mates too frequently hitting long balls in his direction, to the point where Liverpool have probably played its best football in his absence; however, there have been plenty of games where the ball was kept on the deck with the big no.9 in the side, and also some poor performances when he’s been absent.

    Although the Kop support him, I sense that he hasn’t had quite the goodwill afforded to Peter Crouch, even though it took the gangly £7m striker 19 games to finally find the net for the then-reigning European champions.

    Most importantly, given Carroll’s age, and the type of player he is, if comparisons are to be made, they need to be like with like. Observers need to appreciate the longer learning curve of the target-man.

    Perhaps this type of player is rarely viewed as world-class – unless they have pace, they find it hard to be consistently devastating – but many have proven increasingly prolific (even pretty mediocre versions, like Kevin Davies), on top of the focal point/spearhead qualities they bring.

    Compare and Contrast

    No two players are identical; therefore comparisons can always be criticised. In thinking of a whole host of target-men over the past 20 years or so (mostly in England, but also further afield), I realised that some were quicker than others, and that there was a wide range of heights, even though I set the minimum at 6ft; the maximum topped 6’8”.

    I wanted to do my best to avoid comparing apples with oranges; all the while accepting that, given differences within the different striking genres, I may have to compare apples with pears, and oranges with clementines. Once I’d worked out how the traditional no.9s performed I could then look at the differences in trends between target-men and the generally smaller, more mobile variety of forward: only then comparing the apple and the orange.

    I looked only at performance in the top divisions main five European leagues (England, Spain, France, Germany and Italy), and only compared goalscoring records in league games; to exclude games against substandard opposition, either in weaker leagues or in cup ties where strikers can fill their boots.


    Exceptionally quick and/or skilful tall strikers like Zlatan Ibrahimovich and Thierry Henry were excluded, as they could just as easily fit into the ‘oranges’ category I wanted to later compare against. I also excluded target-men who’d started as wingers (such as Emile Heskey), as it’s harder to say when they became a target-man.

    In total I looked at 23 ‘target-men’, and 11 strikers who relied more on a combination of pace, skill and finishing than aerial challenges and hold-up play. All names (beyond those with an LFC connection) were chosen randomly and without bias – the ones that sprung to mind, and the suggestions other people made to me.

    Overall, the target-men in the mini-study average 97 top-league, top division goals apiece, at 8.8 per season. The mobile goalscorers average 130 goals each, at 10.7 per season.

    All About Age

    Only three of the 23 target-men I studied made their league debut as early as 17, and Carroll was one of them. Three more made their debut at 18, but the overall average for playing their first game in a major league top division worked out at 21. Clearly, as suspected, target-man is not a young man’s game; by contrast, the average of the 11 smaller/quicker strikers is just 18, with three of that category making their first league appearance at just 16.


    Out of the 23, only two had managed double-figures in a qualifying league before the age of 20; with 13 the highest amount registered. However, eight of the 11 smaller/quicker strikers had reached double-figures at the age of 19, four of whom exceeded 17 league goals in a season.

    In total, 15 of the 23 ‘apples’ had their best season (or best season to date) aged 25 or over, whereas six of the 11 ‘oranges’ had their best season aged 23 or younger (only two of the 11 peaked after 25). Above all else in the study, this, to me, is the most revealing stat. Whatever the relative merits of the different kinds of players, that seems highly pertinent.

    Of course, Carroll, at just 22, is still some way off his mid-20s, and Edin Dzeko is 25 right now; therefore neither are applicable here when it comes to peaking after 25. So in essence it’s 15 out of 21 who peaked aged 25 or over. In other words, three out of every four target-men will have his best season in his mid-20s or later. (Going back further, I just checked John Toshack’s stats: slow start after joining Liverpool aged 21, and his best season aged 26, in 1976.)

    Excluding Carroll and Dzeko, two of the three remaining strikers to have experienced their best season when under 25 – Emmanuel Adebayor and Peter Crouch (both 23 at the time) – are still playing, and quite conceivably yet to have their best season (though this seems less likely with Crouch, now that he’s 30 and not at a big club).

    Eight of the 21 had their best season aged 28 or over, and three of those had their best-ever season in their 30s. Only Fernando Morientes peaked young, with his best season aged 22, although he had some highly effective seasons up until the point he joined Liverpool in his late 20s. For Andy Carroll to have managed 13 league goals in a single season at the age of 21, having moved clubs halfway through – and moving clubs has hampered many on the list for a year or two – and missed a large chunk of the campaign, is highly impressive; look below at how few other target-men were posting similar figures in a tough division by that age.

    The overall average age for best season for target-men is 26.4, with it standing at 25.7 for players still active in the relevant leagues, and 26.5 for those who have either retired or moved to less-competitive environs. Compare this with the average age of 23.4 for the peaking of the 11 non-target-man strikers, and again, it suggests that although they may not burn as bright to start with, they come into their own later in their careers.
    http://tomkinstimes.com/2011/11/andy...-prime-target/
    Last edited by MickeyLove; 16-11-11 at 17:11. Reason: Credit to original author
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  2. #2  
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    Good OP which deserves a wider audience. Copied to Features board
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    OP Repped for the sheer research and effort put into the thread. Good read.

    Interesting comparison between height age etc. I think it's a good point. Not the only good point in the post, but just one that has got me thinking.

    I'll have to do a survey on the Brazil serie A players.

    I've kept well out of any of the Andy Carroll threads, other than to say, leave the guy alone, at least for a full season.

    Just seen the same article attributed to Paul Tomkins? if it's C/P it should have been credited.
    Last edited by robinredshanks; 16-11-11 at 16:35.
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    I must say what a good read that was, thank you for a well crafted and well researched post.
    I have to say though in all my years watching football and the reds i feel i am entitled to an opinion and if its not positive then so be it. It does not mean i am any less of a fan ok.
    Right I do take your point about the big man and there are many plus points concerning him.
    His style and the way he plays is not conducive to long term international success im afraid. He is a dinosaur of a player. Also while he does hit a sweet shot, his vision and first touch are not great and im afraid he has not got the mobility , a very important asset to have in the modern game. Cant run the channels or work the back 4 when needed.
    His partnership with with L.S. is not a good fit for me, he lacks the mobility to get ahead of L.S. it is always demanding that L.S. has to get ahead of him. Run off A.C. never the other way. L.S. is outstanding at dropping deep and making things happen for him and others. A.C. cant offer too much when this happens.
    For A.C. to become a great player and take liverpool to Leauge and Champ Leauge trophies he must 1. Score more goals, finish his chances with more clinical composure (this can happen, maybe!!!) 2. Be sharper in his first touch and Pass the ball much , much better. While he can improve his passing, talent is born not made. He will never be a massive talent because he was not born with massive talent. Its about A.C. Makin the best of the limited talent he has been given. He needs to add more variety and imagination to his game if he wants to open up world class teams.
    My verdict: Unlucky that LFC panic buy to get him well over the odds. Does not have enough pure class in his boots to ever be a world class player. Could make an effective 3rd striker. Suarez and a world class player with Andy 3rd choice on the bench. Mind you if were judging players on where we are now then he aint a bad player but if you want to judge by saying can you see him playing for one of the best sides in Europe (which is where we should be ) then there is no way he should be playing for L.F.C. I do wish him well and will always cheer the lad on coz he is one of ours.
    Last edited by 7nelly; 16-11-11 at 22:53.
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    Oops, apologies to Paul! and thanks to MickeyLove for the edit.

    OP, please credit others for their work!
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    Andy Carroll should be sold in the January,when the window is open.he's not liverpool stanards.i. ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bernie07 View Post


    Andy Carroll should be sold in the January,when the window is open.he's not liverpool stanards.i. ?
    One hell of a first post..
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    Quote Originally Posted by bernie07 View Post


    Andy Carroll should be sold in the January,when the window is open.he's not liverpool stanards.i. ?
    *Liverpool*

    And OK, I'm sure Kenny will take your advice on board.

    Oh and sell Lucas too, and maybe Kuyt and Downing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SantasLittleHelper View Post
    *Liverpool*

    And OK, I'm sure Kenny will take your advice on board.

    Oh and sell Lucas too, and maybe Kuyt and Downing.
    You forgot Suarez and Reina, O' and perhaps Kelly, The guy obviously knows his football.
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinredshanks View Post
    You forgot Suarez and Reina, O' and perhaps Kelly, The guy obviously knows his football.
    dont forget gerrard and carragher
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinredshanks View Post
    You forgot Suarez and Reina, O' and perhaps Kelly, The guy obviously knows his football.
    Not so sure Robin, I'd be tempted to keep Suarez, even as back up!
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    Quote Originally Posted by SantasLittleHelper View Post
    Not so sure Robin, I'd be tempted to keep Suarez, even as back up!
    We'll have to see if that's ok with bernie. Perhaps he will do a second post on the issue, enlighten us all to the greater knowledge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinredshanks View Post
    We'll have to see if that's ok with bernie. Perhaps he will do a second post on the issue, enlighten us all to the greater knowledge.
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    I believe Andy will get his Newcastle's form. SG will boost his form and he will damn help to LS.
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    I feel sorry for Andy Carrol....
    1st He has been brought into a MASSIVE club with MASSIVE expectations for a MASSIVE fee. All of which are not his fault, he is just trying his best.
    2nd He has been brought to a club that plays a certain way , a way which does nothing for his game and does not suit the type of skill set he was born with. E.G. power , heading ability, attacking crosses.
    3rd He has been brought into a club that is far too big for him and asking things that his limited ability just cant and can never possibly handle. This is because his abilities are not mobility/movement, intellegence, touch and passing. These are the essential qualities a top class forward needs at a big club.
    Asking Andy Carrol to play the Liverpool way and become a world class player is like trying to win formular 1 in a Range Rover. He is not built for it and has not been blessed with the natural ability you need.
    Sell him for as much as we can, buy a forward that suits and good luck to Andy because he will make some club and their fans very happy. It will never be a club that plays a pass and move way and a club of the stature of Liverpool , Man United, Chelsea, City, Spurs, Arsenal, Inter, A.C. , Barca, Real, etc etc etc. The top clubs expect a player to comtribute a lot more in the way of involvment in play. Mr Darren Bent will find that out also when his touch and lack of ability is exposed if we are silly enough to buy him.
    Kenny for once made a big error in the transfer market , recognise this before we waste 2 seasons trying to put a square peg in a round hole. If we dont cut our losses and buy the right forward to compliment and move or style on we ill pay for it big time by not finishing champions leauge. If you dont finish Champions Leauge for more that a couple of seasons in a row your finished as a top club!!!!
    Last edited by 7nelly; 5-1-12 at 13:25.
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    You're clueless. He needs a run of games and the team has to adapt to his strengths, you play to the strengths of any player. I imagine with Stevie back he will link up with the big man, so he can hold up the ball for Stevie who can then find that final pass Downing and Co have been lacking. Sometimes our support is slow on the wings, both the left back/left winger and the same for the right side need to work together, overlap more to create more space and pull defenders out of position and get the ball inthe box, too many times no body is making the runs, or we have 1 player in the box. Lack of intelligence in the final 3rd is the teams problem, not Andy C or Dalglish. I'm sure Dalglish hammers this into them, I remember when he gave Rush a roasting for not running where he was told to, when Rush listened the next time he scored. Good Times! The games we have played well is when we have been patient, waiting for the right time to get the ball in the box, too many crosses when 1 person or even into the wrong area is a waste of time and possession. Not every cross will get to the right person, but at least if it's cleared and we have people around the area we can keep up the pressure.
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    1st of all being rude and throwing insults wont make Andy Carrol into a player with touch and vision mate. Just remember please in 2 years when it finally hits you in your not to clever face that he is just not good enough you heard it off me first.
    2nd and back to being constructive, you mention that the "team must play to his strenghts" This is only part right-HE HAS TO ADABPT TO A HIGHER STANDARD OF FOOTBALL!! he must show more and improve both his touch and ability on the ball. Thats standard and a total must if he wants to play at the next level regardless what anyone else does in the team. He has a responsibility as a 9 at a top club to contribute in the attacking half of the field period. So to blame other people for not doing this or that or blaming Stevie g because his is injured is so lame. While these factors aint helped the lad it is not an excuse that holds up at all.
    haha I can tell you have never played at any standard apart from mayb in the park with your daddy or are you one of the Championship Manager crowed who buy the c.d. and manage liverpool for a bit? so then you know a player with his stats haha . 1st ill make it simple for you so please for god sake concentrate, Andy is a big strong lad who plays a certain way and that is the problem right there. You can not just play a long ball or target man football and expect that to get you into Champions Leauge or further. Football has moved on in that respect.
    2nd and most importantly Andy has been blessed with a skill set of strength, heading ability and good at attacking crosses.
    He does not have good touch, he cant do enough outside the box, his movement is poor , he is not blessed with any sort of pace and his final ball is.. well lets just say he hasnt got one!
    For Andy Carrol to make it at LFC he is going to have to change and unfortunatly his talent and ability will not allow this no matter how much coaching he gets. He is a limited player because he was born with limited ability. Please understand what it takes to be a top forward in the modern game. No before you shoot your mouth off again silly boy ask yourself what is it that makes a top top player and im guessing its more than throwing your weight around and depending on the right cross to come in. Are you finally getting it, why a limited player should be with limited clubs and the players with the most ability play for the biggest and best.
    I use that word again..ability... the most important word in football regardless of the position.
    Last edited by 7nelly; 5-1-12 at 14:03.
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    i agree with 7nelly, i am not one who goes around picking spots with signings or tactics i simply leave it to the players or the men in charge. but my concern is not with Andy when he is playing it is with the rest of the team, as they all are trying to play the game to suit Andy. which is ok if your stoke or villa but it has never worked for Liverpool. Its not Andy's fault he is trying his best and he is mentally committed you can see that, but i think his pace and touch let him down when we try to attack the Liverpool way, imo we should wish him the best of luck get as much as we can for him and thank him for his efforts YNWA
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    OldSniperwolfy96 is online now View Kop Profile The boy that cried sniperwolf!
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    Andy just needs service then he will be world class
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    Let's see how he fares now that Kompany is out of the picture for the City tie. Kompany did well too keep him out of the game. Gerrard to assist, Andy scores 2!
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    Carroll must have better wide men to put real danger crosses,not the way we are playing
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    He will come good, he just needs time.
    I think we should get another old, experienced striker this transfer window and bring Andy Carroll every game on around the 60th minute. He'll do great against those tired defenders and he'll get some game experience. Then, when he has proven us that he is a very good striker, he'll slowly replace the experienced, old striker
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSniperwolfy96 View Post
    Andy just needs service then he will be world class
    World class does not mean only to score... It means ability, vision, positioning... this is what make a player work class... not just goals! Suarez is world class even if he does not score, he has vision, ability, positioning, he sets other people up... all that makes you world class.. not simply scoring!
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoveTheWayIWhine View Post
    He will come good, he just needs time.
    I think we should get another old, experienced striker this transfer window and bring Andy Carroll every game on around the 60th minute. He'll do great against those tired defenders and he'll get some game experience. Then, when he has proven us that he is a very good striker, he'll slowly replace the experienced, old striker
    yes thats how you do it... we need someone who can do it now and show Andy how it is done! Its what we call in business terms succession planning!
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    He can not run with the ball for 15 meters. He falls to the ground far too easily. He lacks match fitness. Not sure if it is due to lack of match practice or he is unfit? He also lack fighting spirit. Hats off to Stevie G and Glen Johnson.
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    Congratulations on a very interesting study!

    At the end of the day we have to beat Man City on Wednesday to mention only one match! One goal is not necessarily enough and Andy Carroll can and willl resolve that I hope assuming Kenny picks him!

    It was said he had to step up to the mark in Luis Suarez absence but he needs to start not come on as a substitute
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    What are the chances of me selling a Bolton away ticket at reebok on Saturday? £33
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    7nelly

    Clearly you know better than Dalglish. Clearly you must have many clubs chasing to sign you up with your extensive knowledge in football... Carroll was a v.good player at Newcastle, he is playing completly different positionly. Who knows what they are working on in training. Your posting on a forum with people of different opions. To lay into one player at a team sport is a joke (don't you think) Your only as good as your weakest player.

    People where slating Lucas two seasons ago, look at him over the last 18 months, compeltly different player.

    We need to face facts, we are no longer a GOOD team. Our current league postion and the way we have been playing proves that. We are average at the moment.

    All this we are a BIG club, is retrospective.

    Our Reputation due to our history makes us BIG, in current terms we are not a BIG club. Currently we are not good enough for the top 5. The players need to take the blame and start playing better...

    You are entitled to your opion, maybe my first post on the subject was a bit aggressive, prob having a bad day and fed up of the negativity of all these so called fans!
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    You can't play balls to the corners for him from midfield because he is slower than most wing backs. He can't hold up play, or play pass and move. For a target man, he is surprisingly no where to be found when the ball is being played in or when a rebound is kicked back into the box.
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    OldSniperwolfy96 is online now View Kop Profile The boy that cried sniperwolf!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liver-2007 View Post
    What are the chances of me selling a Bolton away ticket at reebok on Saturday? £33
    Can't talk tickets on here I think
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