Interesting stat about Andy Carroll...

[RedMedicineForAll]

You're clueless Snipes.

You know nothing about football. Our football, i mean, not yours.

Nothing more frustrating than an ignoramus with strong opinions about things they clearly know nothing about.

[RedMedicineForAll]

You have just pulled an argument out of your arse, and then proceeded to dispute it.

No one was going crazy over the run. Someone pointed that it was good movement from Carroll because another poster mentioned the amount of goals Suarez has scored with Carroll in the side. I'd assume they wanted to highlight some good link up play from two centre forwards playing together.

For some reason, you decide to try to dismiss this.

Personally, I'm inclined to believe it's because you are either wilfully ignoring the good aspects of his game or you simply don't have the understanding to actually see it.

I think it's more this. One of the most clearly clueless posters in the forums history.

[Target-Man]

You sound like a tool. But then again when you have nothing else to offer to the discussion, chances are you are going to sound toolish.
Funny how I have never noticed you on here before.

The trouble with you at the moment, Snipes, is that you are not really offering anything to the discussion either. There is no discussion. It's all about lecturing - often in a rather condescending tone. Dare I suggest that the current run of poor forming is getting to you.

[Target-Man]

Have our standards seriously dropped THIS far? Carroll's supporters point to how he opens space for Suarez to exploit. Fine. That STILL means that Suarez remains both the creative playmaker AND go-to striker on chances. Sorry, but he cannot do both...no player can. It's because Carroll offers nothing in the way of a legitimate threat on goal that defenses are all that troubled by. I can count on one hand the number of headers he's won inside the area. And of those, he's not scored a SINGLE goal.

We should be building our offensive attack around Suarez, BUT with him as the main playmaker and, perhaps, a false number nine. We need a quality striker in front of him who is lethal in the air but adept with the ball at his feet in truly dangerous areas. A player of Cavani's caliber is what would do the job. That and a quality winger who is pacey, full of trickery, and capable of unlocking defenses from wide areas. That would allow Suarez to sit a little further back and have the luxury of attacking when he wanted to, not because (as is currently the case) he's the only one capable of doing so.

Carroll should be sold off. It's nothing personal. I don't doubt his work rate or intentions, and he's shown glimpses of quality. But he's not shown nearly enough both in terms of consistency or improvement to suggest that he's going to be anything more than a squad player with us. For that kind of money, which DOES count for something in the argument, that's simply unacceptable.

We can and MUST do better.

The sad thing is that if he had done for us this season what he did for Newcastle last season, he would almost have been worth the £35m, no matter how aesthetically unpleasing his style of play is.

[iulius1977]

WWDWWWW - We'd have won that game if it hadn't been for Carroll

DDDLLLL - We'd have lost those games if Carroll had started

This ^^

I think he's off in the summer.

I pray to Fowler for that

[Snipes]

The trouble with you at the moment, Snipes, is that you are not really offering anything to the discussion either. There is no discussion. It's all about lecturing - often in a rather condescending tone. Dare I suggest that the current run of poor forming is getting to you.

Am not sure what else you would want me to offer to this discussion, Target. Am I supposed to just agree with everyone and say Andy is gonna come good even when I don't believe it because that is the only contribution I haven't made here. For several weeks now, months actually, I have pointed out a thousand different reasons why I think Carroll is not and cannot be the answer to our striker requirements at this club if we want to be back to where we claim we belong. What more else can I add? I have given strategic reasons, tactical reasons, statistical reasons.

I've been saying from the get go - Andy does not suit our style but I listened to the litany of excuses. At first the excuse was that he was injured and not fit yet. Then he needed service so we went out and got the leagues' leader in supplying crosses by a mile to take advantage of his strengths in the air. Then it was it he needs to be given a run of games - so by default he got that run of games when Suarez was forced out of the team and until recently, to be fair to Kenny had gotten a decent run to the team. Then it was just wait till Stevie comes back and forms a lethal trio.

Well, he's fit now, he's had his run, Stevie is back and guess what Liverpool's biggest weakness still is, guess what Andy isn't doing, and guess what Liverpool's number 1 need for strengthening is this summer?? The lad simply doesn't have the talent, ability, brains and wherewithall to be the player we need him to be. Nothing could be more obvious. If I were being harsh but the stats were there and he was scoring goals and making assists, etc then the abuse I take here from people on the other side of this issue would at least have merit. Instead, its all personal - its never supported by any facts of reality - its constant phantom, made up falsehoods that belong to in a children's story book.

I have no reason to hate Andy Carroll - Craig Bellamy did not cover himself with much glory when he first left here so if ther ewas anyone I would have issues with, it would be him. But he has come here and proven himself in the limited opportunities he has been given and I call a spade a spade - I am a big fan of his, because he has earned it. I personally couldn't care less about a bunch of faceless internet dolts talking ***** just because they cannot handle the truth - I will continue to call it like it is. If am wrong, I challenge anyone to provide me with real reasons why am wrong. Show me real quantifiable or justifiable proof that you are right and I am wrong. I have given my reasons above, I can give whatever stats you want from 6 goals in 18 months and almost 40 matches. The excuses are running out am afraid.

There's my case, there's my contributions, Target. This is not a lecture - just putting it out the way it is so am happy for anyone in disagreement to offer the same.

[Snipes]

The sad thing is that if he had done for us this season what he did for Newcastle last season, he would almost have been worth the £35m, no matter how aesthetically unpleasing his style of play is.

No one cares about his aesthetically unpleasing style of play mate. I certainly don't. Peter Crouch is even more gangly and awkward but if he produces, who gives a flip??

Fact is, he hasn't done fo rus what he did for Newcastle. Not even close. Production is how a striker is judged, pure and simple. My requirements are so low now I would be happy if he even looked like a dangerouns striker who scares defenses, or even concerns them. Am not even kidding, if he as doing a Torres, getting in positions to score, missing the target, hitting the post, forcing saves, doing everything except putting the ball in the back of the net, I would be happy to wait. The total anaemic, toothless lack of even being "there" is what is completely impossible to stomach. Sorry.

[Target-Man]

Am not sure what else you would want me to offer to this discussion, Target. Am I supposed to just agree with everyone and say Andy is gonna come good even when I don't believe it because that is the only contribution I haven't made here. For several weeks now, months actually, I have pointed out a thousand different reasons why I think Carroll is not and cannot be the answer to our striker requirements at this club if we want to be back to where we claim we belong. What more else can I add? I have given strategic reasons, tactical reasons, statistical reasons.

I've been saying from the get go - Andy does not suit our style but I listened to the litany of excuses. At first the excuse was that he was injured and not fit yet. Then he needed service so we went out and got the leagues' leader in supplying crosses by a mile to take advantage of his strengths in the air. Then it was it he needs to be given a run of games - so by default he got that run of games when Suarez was forced out of the team and until recently, to be fair to Kenny had gotten a decent run to the team. Then it was just wait till Stevie comes back and forms a lethal trio.

Well, he's fit now, he's had his run, Stevie is back and guess what Liverpool's biggest weakness still is, guess what Andy isn't doing, and guess what Liverpool's number 1 need for strengthening is this summer?? The lad simply doesn't have the talent, ability, brains and wherewithall to be the player we need him to be. Nothing could be more obvious. If I were being harsh but the stats were there and he was scoring goals and making assists, etc then the abuse I take here from people on the other side of this issue would at least have merit. Instead, its all personal - its never supported by any facts of reality - its constant phantom, made up falsehoods that belong to in a children's story book.

I have no reason to hate Andy Carroll - Craig Bellamy did not cover himself with much glory when he first left here so if ther ewas anyone I would have issues with, it would be him. But he has come here and proven himself in the limited opportunities he has been given and I call a spade a spade - I am a big fan of his, because he has earned it. I personally couldn't care less about a bunch of faceless internet dolts talking ***** just because they cannot handle the truth - I will continue to call it like it is. If am wrong, I challenge anyone to provide me with real reasons why am wrong. Show me real quantifiable or justifiable proof that you are right and I am wrong. I have given my reasons above, I can give whatever stats you want from 6 goals in 18 months and almost 40 matches. The excuses are running out am afraid.

There's my case, there's my contributions, Target. This is not a lecture - just putting it out the way it is so am happy for anyone in disagreement to offer the same.

I guess it's the harshness of your tone and the subtle difference between "the way it is" and "the way I see it" that does it at the moment. Basically, it's not so much your points as the way you make them.

But you are absolutely right that Carroll is an infuriating player to watch. I really wonder what happened to him, because if he had been the player he was in the fall of 2010, i.e. the half-season before we bought him, he would have been an effective player. I do suspect that you would have objected to him anyway, however, because he is just not your type of player.

[purejam]

I guess it's the harshness of your tone and the subtle difference between "the way it is" and "the way I see it" that does it at the moment. Basically, it's not so much your points as the way you make them.

But you are absolutely right that Carroll is an infuriating player to watch. I really wonder what happened to him, because if he had been the player he was in the fall of 2010, i.e. the half-season before we bought him, he would have been an effective player. I do suspect that you would have objected to him anyway, however, because he is just not your type of player.

He was nowhere near £35m even at his best for Newcastle.

Carroll is okay and he may score 15-18 goals next season. However, he's at best a 3rd choice striker at a top club.

Can you ever imagine setting the latter stages of the CL alive? That is the calibre of player we needed to replace Torres.

Man U have a £30m plus striker on the bench and I'd rather we had Berbatov than Carroll.

[ForzaAdorjan]

I believe even if play more aesthetically pleasing football without Carroll our trouble is consistency, we need to find a winning squad and stick to it, even if that means playing Carroll with ugly football. We need to learn to win ugly if we want to get back up to the top, the difference between our loss to Arsenal and nearly every United win is astounding, they can be getting played off of the park and get 3 points, we need to find this effectiveness and if that involves Carroll, well so be it and it would be 35 million well spent.

[AndysLeftPeg]

That's funny. I don't think you give Wigan defenders their due credit if you believe any of that.
Any defender who drops Suarez to cover Carroll wouldn't even be allowed back the locker room after the game, much less the team bus.

We paid 35 Mil for a striker who can't couldn't score sand in a desert, but hey, he is a really good decoy!!! Woo hoo!! Give him a new contract.

don't be so niave, if carroll wasn't playing, it would have been someone else, whoever played instead of carroll would not have been in the box, carroll is the only person who gets in the box. yes the lad deserves critism but there are a few more major things that need sorting before carroll

[Fowi]

IMO Kenny doesn't seem that big a fan of Carroll.

[Dioltas]

IMO Kenny doesn't seem that big a fan of Carroll.

He seemed like he was initially, going to that concert and all but I wonder if his patience has run out? I think Andy has only improved on the pitch so if there are issues I think they may be behind the scenes such as maybe frustrations with training. Or it could just be Kenny is more eager to experiment with other lineups now as he prepares to plan for next season.

[YOUR-HIGHNESS]

Carroll has not been given half the opportunity to impress that downing and henderson have had, also the service has been pants more often than not balls are over hit or played in at the wrong time, also his often the only one in the box most times making him easy to mark

[Roshi98]

The sad thing is that if he had done for us this season what he did for Newcastle last season, he would almost have been worth the £35m, no matter how aesthetically unpleasing his style of play is.

What I think Carroll illustrates is a player showing good form (with Toons) because defenses haven't yet had the time to adjust to absorb and contain the attack. It takes time to get to know strengths and weaknesses of up and coming players. When watching Carroll up against quality CB's now, it's readily apparent that they've made those adjustments. It's not our tactics. Our tactics have produced more chances on goal than nearly any other side in the league. The fact of the matter is that we bought him too early to make a realistic assessment of what he could bring to the side and how opposing sides were tweaking their defensive alignment to contain him. There's no sign I can see that he's made the adjustments to his game to counter those counters.

This is why those of us looking at the lad with more openness have held off on judging him too quickly. We've now had almost a full season of evidence to assess and the picture, if we're basing it on honesty and not hope, is none too good. The big lad isn't good enough, or if he is, he isn't for us. Like I said, I don't doubt his work rate, his intent, or some of the valuable contributions he does make. But what he contributes STILL forces other players to extend themselves beyond what is acceptable or sustainable to the club. We didn't bring him on to be the rabbit who draws the wolves away - we brought him to be the lion that scares off the wolves.