Are bad signings better than no signings?

[tracetherain]

Look we all agree, and if we don't we're lying to ourselves, that our signings haven't taken us to the heights, and produced the results expected and hoped for.

The fact remains that we still are short an attacking midfielder, a creative wide player, and a striker of competing. The good news is last summer and last January we at the very least recognized this. We bought players in those positions and they haven't lived up to their expectations. You can't really debate that we haven't gotten what we needed from the acquisitions in those positions and that while we addressed certain areas of need the specific personnel may have been bad choices. I take this into serious consideration when evaluating this season and the status of the manager. This season we have played better football. At times we have been unlucky, but more often that that we have blatantly underperformed.

But for me the fact that last summer Kenny and DC actively addressed the areas of need means a lot going forward. It means to me, that the issue has been with the signings themselves and not with the plan or the way we want to build the team. Don't mistake this for justifying our signings because in large we have been left wanting. But tactically speaking you can see clearly what the plan was.

My point is, if we trust Kenny can see what the problems and crack are, and we all agree the football has been better, then he HAS to be given the opportunity to try one more time. Most of our signings last summer haven contribute but the sample size it too small to say that Kenny can't sign the right players.

We always talk about players and comment about how they are paid to get on with it, and how if we performed at our jobs the same way they perform at their jobs we'd be sacked or docked wags, but to an extent you can turn that around and say that at what job are you sacked at the first sign of failure. Not many , especially if it's clear that you have one main issue that definitely is addressable and correctable.

If this coming summer Kenny makes further poor signings , then his ability to judge talent is called into question, and his and Comolli's futures need to be reconsidered. But for me it's still to early

Kenny may have gone with the same transfer philosophy that has won him leagues in the past, and you can understand that thinking, but now comes the real question can he adapt, can he correct his mistakes in the transfer market, I'm not saying he will or even that he can, but he has to be given the chance.

[Sneets]

Look we all agree, and if we don't we're lying to ourselves, that our signings haven't taken us to the heights, and produced the results expected and hoped for.

The fact remains that we still are short an attacking midfielder, a creative wide player, and a striker of competing. The good news is last summer and last January we at the very least recognized this. We bought players in those positions and they haven't lived up to their expectations. You can't really debate that we haven't gotten what we needed from the acquisitions in those positions and that while we addressed certain areas of need the specific personnel may have been bad choices. I take this into serious consideration when evaluating this season and the status of the manager. This season we have played better football. At times we have been unlucky, but more often that that we have blatantly underperformed.

But for me the fact that last summer Kenny and DC actively addressed the areas of need means a lot going forward. It means to me, that the issue has been with the signings themselves and not with the plan or the way we want to build the team. Don't mistake this for justifying our signings because in large we have been left wanting. But tactically speaking you can see clearly what the plan was.

My point is, if we trust Kenny can see what the problems and crack are, and we all agree the football has been better, then he HAS to be given the opportunity to try one more time. Most of our signings last summer haven contribute but the sample size it too small to say that Kenny can't sign the right players.

We always talk about players and comment about how they are paid to get on with it, and how if we performed at our jobs the same way they perform at their jobs we'd be sacked or docked wags, but to an extent you can turn that around and say that at what job are you sacked at the first sign of failure. Not many , especially if it's clear that you have one main issue that definitely is addressable and correctable.

If this coming summer Kenny makes further poor signings , then his ability to judge talent is called into question, and his and Comolli's futures need to be reconsidered. But for me it's still to early

Kenny may have gone with the same transfer philosophy that has won him leagues in the past, and you can understand that thinking, but now comes the real question can he adapt, can he correct his mistakes in the transfer market, I'm not saying he will or even that he can, but he has to be given the chance.

Bad signings are really bad news, You are stuck with the players on the payroll sucking up funds which would be better used on more productive players, you try and get rid of them and you have to take the loss, they and their fellow players know they were bad signings and it does nothing for morale. The supporters know they were bad signings as do the media. The owners also know and will think twice about pulling out the cheque book. There is nothing good about bad signings.

[tracetherain]

Bad signings are really bad news, You are stuck with the players on the payroll sucking up funds which would be better used on more productive players, you try and get rid of them and you have to take the loss, they and their fellow players know they were bad signings and it does nothing for morale. The supporters know they were bad signings as do the media. The owners also know and will think twice about pulling out the cheque book. There is nothing good about bad signings.

I'm sorry , I being more hypothetical about that question, and it's probably a poor thread title. My question relates more to Kenny's ability to address what needs to be fixed within the squad, and a statement that I believe he should be getting the chance

[GeorgeLFC]

Without being disrespectful I just want to say that most fans from a 10 year to the oldest among the 140mil that we have world wide can see what players are lacking and what positions need be strengthened. The fact is only one of us is given the £100+ million to address those issues.

[Sneets]

I'm sorry , I being more hypothetical about that question, and it's probably a poor thread title. My question relates more to Kenny's ability to address what needs to be fixed within the squad, and a statement that I believe he should be getting the chance

You usually don't get two 100 million pound chances.

[tracetherain]

Without being disrespectful I just want to say that most fans from a 10 year to the oldest among the 140mil that we have world wide can see what players are lacking and what positions need be strengthened. The fact is only one of us is given the £100+ million to address those issues.

Your points is you rather trust a 10 year old with investment before giving Kenny another chance?

Because if that's not what your saying I don't see your point.

[tracetherain]

You usually don't get two 100 million pound chances.

Relatively speaking, many do

[GeorgeLFC]

Your points is you rather trust a 10 year old with investment before giving Kenny another chance?

Because if that's not what your saying I don't see your point.

No. The point I'm making is to your post where you said that Kenny is on the right track as he has identified the problems with the team and made and attempt to fix it but except few most have them have been unsuccessfully atleast so far and you're suggesting since Kenny has shown the understanding of knowing the problems and fixing them he should be given another season to address the issue we have this season.
To that my point is most reasonable people with football knowledge can see the same things that Kenny can, but only he had the ability to make them right and he has failed in doing so. Just identifying the problem is not good enough, his job is to fix it and get it right. I'm not saying sack him or keep him. I'm just saying that is the measure of his success and failure.

[tracetherain]

No. The point I'm making is to your post where you said that Kenny is on the right track as he has identified the problems with the team and made and attempt to fix it but except few most have them have been unsuccessfully atleast so far and you're suggesting since Kenny has shown the understanding of knowing the problems and fixing them he should be given another season to address the issue we have this season.
To that my point is most reasonable people with football knowledge can see the same things that Kenny can, but only he had the ability to make them right and he has failed in doing so. Just identifying the problem is not good enough, his job is to fix it and get it right. I'm not saying sack him or keep him. I'm just saying that is the measure of his success and failure.

If its true you aren't saying sack him , then you have to believe that he should be given the chance to fix it , because you have the faith the faith he can identify the problem and properly fix it. If not, you or anyone who felt that way would be pretty dumb right?

We actually agree then, and I'm not sure what exactly you are disagreeing with.

[Sneets]

If its true you aren't saying sack him , then you have to believe that he should be given the chance to fix it , because you have the faith the faith he can identify the problem and properly fix it. If not, you or anyone who felt that way would be pretty dumb right?

We actually agree then, and I'm not sure what exactly you are disagreeing with.

He is not saying any of those things you suggest. Which manager receives a 100 million a year to fix spending mistakes?

[OhLitmanen]

I broadly agree. I honestly don't know whether to have faith in Dalglish in this respect or not though, because I don't know how the transfer targets have been agreed on. Which of our signings, or was it all, did Dalglish have free reign to choose himself and what was Comolli's input?

[pete752]

No, bad signings are infinitely worse than no signings.

[tracetherain]

He is not saying any of those things you suggest. Which manager receives a 100 million a year to fix spending mistakes?

Does he need 100 million to fix his mistakes?

[tracetherain]

No, bad signings are infinitely worse than no signings.

Thanks for taking the time to read the thread

[iamnottian]

i think kenny knows he made a huge mistake leaving all the signing to comolli last season. so he was out scouting with clarky in during the chelsea vs napoli and man c vs (was it sporting?) game? my guess. i like the way we are playing now, but i can see that most of our players are really limited, especially in the final third. I am confident kenny can turn it.

[GeorgeLFC]

If its true you aren't saying sack him , then you have to believe that he should be given the chance to fix it , because you have the faith the faith he can identify the problem and properly fix it. If not, you or anyone who felt that way would be pretty dumb right?

We actually agree then, and I'm not sure what exactly you are disagreeing with.

Honestly I am not sure if I want him sacked or to step down. I'm not sure whether he should be given another chance either specially in light of some of the managerial flaws i have witnessed this season. I'm on the fence, its the worst feeling but I want to wait till the season ends to decide.

[tracetherain]

Honestly I am not sure if I want him sacked or to step down. I'm not sure whether he should be given another chance either specially in light of some of the managerial flaws i have witnessed this season. I'm on the fence, its the worst feeling but I want to wait till the season ends to decide.

And that's a very pragmatic approach, respect

[UsherLFC]

No signings are better than severely over spending on average *****.

[mark89er]

good question imo
spending 100m on 'bad players' is probably worst

that said. we didnt do this.....

[pete752]

Thanks for taking the time to read the thread

I actually did read the thread..and I still stand by what I said. We shipped out the likes of El Zhar and Poulsen in the last window and we all saw how difficult it was to do it. Bad signings take up precious wages that can put to some other use, are detrimental to youth development because they take up squad places and cost us points which leads to bad signings again in the future because the potential good signings won't want to touch us with a barge pole.

I'm not necessarily saying that all the signings we made in the summer are bad as it's clearly not the case. Bellamy, Coates and Enrique were good signings and Downing has been okayish. He's been made poorer than he has been because of the impotency of our strikers. Adam is clearly a bad signing and Henderson is a signing which I can't comprehend to this date. He's a neat player but that's about it though to be fair he's been played on the right where he's clearly not good. Carroll has been discussed to death on here and I can't possibly add anything more to whatever has already been said.

I'm in favor of giving Kenny one more season to see how he does with the signings this summer. We need a quality CAM, right winger, a good striker who can finish and a backup DM who's better than Spearing. We also need to ship out Adam. Keep Henderson and Carroll and see if they show improvement next season as even if we do sell them, we'll have to take a massive hit.

[tracetherain]

Yes I know that bad signings are poor.

My point is how long have we been saying we need a winger? A LB? We've address all the positions we've needed for some time, they have failed and the players chosen weren't up to the level we needed. But my point is in our recent history we have been poor at addressing positions of need, and if the problem boils down to, the concept is fine but the execution failed. If we believe in the concept, if we we can see what Kenny is trying to do from a footballing standpoint and has shown the capability to address those positions we need, and the failing is solely down to the players that were brought in by He, DC or whatever combination of the 2, isn't it worth it given him one mor chance to do the same thing but try and get the right personnell in?

[pete752]

Yes I know that bad signings are poor.

My point is how long have we been saying we need a winger? A LB? We've address all the positions we've needed for some time, they have failed and the players chosen weren't up to the level we needed. But my point is in our recent history we have been poor at addressing positions of need, and if the problem boils down to, the concept is fine but the execution failed. If we believe in the concept, if we we can see what Kenny is trying to do from a footballing standpoint and has shown the capability to address those positions we need, and the failing is solely down to the players that were brought in by He, DC or whatever combination of the 2, isn't it worth it given him one mor chance to do the same thing but try and get the right personnell in?

In our current situation, the problem in bringing the right personnel is largely due to the philosophy that I think we are adopting to with our current owners. We are looking to identify young talent with a lot of potential who won't cost a bomb in wages and this way we could keep the wage bill down as we develop more of our own talent so to speak. The problem with this strategy is that we desperately need some quality right now to be competitive and to get that quality, we'd have to shell out big wages.

I might be wrong but that's the crux of the problem as I see it. In the long run, we should produce more talent from within than go out and buy real quality which costs a bomb but for our first team squad, we need to buy more quality if we want to compete next season.

[Sneets]

Does he need 100 million to fix his mistakes?

We need a striker, a winger and a CM. We spent about 75 million on those positions last year. We probably need 60 to 70 million to fill them with quality.

[Sneets]

In our current situation, the problem in bringing the right personnel is largely due to the philosophy that I think we are adopting to with our current owners. We are looking to identify young talent with a lot of potential who won't cost a bomb in wages and this way we could keep the wage bill down as we develop more of our own talent so to speak. The problem with this strategy is that we desperately need some quality right now to be competitive and to get that quality, we'd have to shell out big wages.

I might be wrong but that's the crux of the problem as I see it. In the long run, we should produce more talent from within than go out and buy real quality which costs a bomb but for our first team squad, we need to buy more quality if we want to compete next season.

I think the owners were sold a package of nonsense with regard to this buy cheap and sell on line. As you say to maintain one's standing as a club you need quality right now and not some fantasy in the future.

[tracetherain]

In our current situation, the problem in bringing the right personnel is largely due to the philosophy that I think we are adopting to with our current owners. We are looking to identify young talent with a lot of potential who won't cost a bomb in wages and this way we could keep the wage bill down as we develop more of our own talent so to speak. The problem with this strategy is that we desperately need some quality right now to be competitive and to get that quality, we'd have to shell out big wages.

I might be wrong but that's the crux of the problem as I see it. In the long run, we should produce more talent from within than go out and buy real quality which costs a bomb but for our first team squad, we need to buy more quality if we want to compete next season.

There is a gross misconception that we want to keep the wage bill down. The owners said when they came in they wanted to get the wage bill down, they have succeeded in that. They never said they wanted to keep it down, the goal was to get rid of over paid players (in terms of wages) who don't contribute and have no upside. (Jovanovic, Cole, Etc)

The Boston red sox are only outspent (in terms of wages) by 1 club in MLB. They have no problem paying high wages, but for superstar quality, title winning caliber players.

The red sox Have 6 players making over 100,000 pounds per week. The exact number of players we are short on in our 25 man squad, im not saying we are going to buy 6 players of that level this summer but, We are a more profitable club than the sox and have nowhere near that. I expect us to build on that now

We cut our wage bill by over 30million last summer, I fully do not expect that to remain that way

[gedzredz]

We need a striker, a winger and a CM. We spent about 75 million on those positions last year. We probably need 60 to 70 million to fill them with quality.

This is the problem for Kenny, we spent £75 million on these positions and they still need to be filled.

Can he convince the owners they need to provide another £75 million and relegate last years buys to the bench?

Or does he admit defeat and try to sell the players he bought last season (for maybe £30 million current value) and buy cheaper replacements? or ask the owners to make up the difference?

I have no idea how Kenny will approach the summer but I hope the plan involves having 4 new players in next years prefered starting 11.

[Sneets]

This is the problem for Kenny, we spent £75 million on these positions and they still need to be filled.

Can he convince the owners they need to provide another £75 million and relegate last years buys to the bench?

Or does he admit defeat and try to sell the players he bought last season (for maybe £30 million current value) and buy cheaper replacements? or ask the owners to make up the difference?

I have no idea how Kenny will approach the summer but I hope the plan involves having 4 new players in next years prefered starting 11.

Dead right and the collateral damage to our PL aspirations as a result of buying these players. I am glad I don't have to explain it away.

[Snipes]

If the question is would I rather have no signings than have poor ones like Carroll and Henderson especially? That answer is a resounding HELL YEAH!

If the question is should Kenny and Comolli be allowed to make more signings this summer - of course they should. I believe Kenny will have filled his quota of bad buys and learned from his mistakes. I would look forward to his next purchases and fully blieve he should supported completely in that regard.

[12fatboyred]

I said the same thing when Benítez got the sack that with Hodgson, Dalglish


the squad and the team was a easy top six material and it only needed in first-team 2/3 quality signings and then add-ons to the squad,


People then always argued Benítez finished seven so it can't be a top five let alone top six material, but the league position was not the true story of Benítez final year at the club,

we were consistently in the top five right up to the last couple of months and we got to Europa League Semi Finals as well.



Another point I made in another topic was Benítez did not change the philosophy too much in the first two years or so we still played Gerard Houllier 4-4-2 with slight alteration

At Dalglish beginning of his tender, he used Benítez 4-2-3-1, Benítez philosophy, players who fitted that system, so you would have expected the first-team come the summer to carry on playing that system, then buying young squad players who Dalglish could coach into his own philosophy what he could gradually introduced,


Instead he what to make his own stamp on the setup of the club and was bull in a china shop ripping everything what resembled Benítez, you know that's what Souness did 20 odd years ago hopefully we can rectify all the mistakes in the summer,

If we don't we can really look at another 20 odd years of being average in the league for a long time

[USE THE FORCE LUCAS]

If Kenny is still here next season, I would like to see him given about £20,000,000 or so to work with, plus anything he generates from player sales.

He said that he would 'spend the clubs money like it was his own' and didn't do so which is extremely disappointing. I thought he was more honest than that.

He needs to regain some trust that he can act responsibly in the transfer market.