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Thread: How we can pressurize teams more...

  1. #1 Rafa How we can pressurize teams more... 
    LFCDynamic is offline Newcomer of the Year
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    In the last 20 minutes of the Aston Villa game we applied or at least seemed to apply more pressure. This and determination are the 2 most probable reasons that lead to us getting our goal. This, I believe is what we've been lacking all season in the league. We need more of this and I'll try and show my ideas of how we can do that in this thread;
    I was also watching Man Utd today, hoping (though bleak) that QPR would thwart them. However, the pressure they applied was brilliant (though I'd hate to admit it). Yes the ref was pathetic too, but that's not the point. They were dominant through out the game.

    The factors for this in my opinion are:
    -QPR were weakened by the red card, and they were probably a bit apprehensive.

    -United came in waves unlike us who just seem to arrive like 1 big tsunami at times and waste the chances. What I mean by this is, United formed something like a circle around the QPR attacking area. This prevented QPR from venturing into United's third and also allowed United to get the ball back easily when QPR cleared the ball...

    -Though some scum fans criticize them for not shooting enough, I believe this is actually a good thing. Our statistics can be slightly misrepresenting considering the number of non-clear cut chances (If you could put it that way) we've tried to take on. They seemed to be far more patient than us, compared to how we played Villa in the first half.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to model our team behind the scum. Definitely not, I'm a red through and through, but what I'm trying to say is they demonstrated how to put pressure on certain teams today, we have been failing to do this and this can be something we can work on to end our poor run of form in front of goal.

    So what I think could help us is;
    - Getting more men, in and around the D.

    - When one of our players moves forward, another 3 at least should follow immediately to support him. E.g. as RossMosh suggested when players like Suarez and Gerrard are on the ball we need other players making runs and offering themselves as options to pass to. This will either free up some space or drag a defender or two away from the person on the ball. We played like this once Kenny returned(last season), why revert now?

    - We must be more patient in our decision making. If you shoot you donít score, yes. But that doesnít mean we shoot just for the sake of shooting or out of frustration.

    - We need to go at the opposition in waves and for that to happen we need our full-backs to be over lapping more. While Enrique does that quite often and enough, when Johnson is not around, Kelly (& Flanno) donít do likewise and thatís part of what they have to work on a bit more.

    - Playing Henderson on the right hand side just doesnít work. Play Stevie or Downing there as someone else suggested to get real width and Bellamy or Maxi on the left. Because Kuyt and Bellamy both have a tendency cut in or get into striking positions when theyíre played as wingers. (Bellamy especially on the right hand side).

    - I may have missed out on a few points I had in mind considering this was a longish article, and I will add that through the course of this thread if I have to. I thank everyone who has taken the patience to read this including the mod who approved this
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  2. #2  
    LFCDynamic is offline Newcomer of the Year
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    Thanks for the approval.
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    Finally a proper post after tripe like ''we are unlucky'' ''goalkeepers become godlike''

    If you look back at the goal suarez scored there were 5players in the box which made it harder to defend and mark each one of them.
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    maradona4liverpool is offline Academy prospect
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    The balance and quality of players in the right areas make your uniteds what they are.. Unfortunately we don't have that but the theory is there for people to see..
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    Follow Barca's 6 second rule maybe?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michaeloven View Post
    Finally a proper post after tripe like ''we are unlucky'' ''goalkeepers become godlike''

    If you look back at the goal suarez scored there were 5players in the box which made it harder to defend and mark each one of them.
    That's true I've talked about similar in other posts. To get men forward in numbers and back in numbers takes a high energy level, high tempo and we've struggled simply because Gerrard has been injured and Lucas has for extensive periods.

    Gerrard now missed pre season and can't quite get up and down for that reason after 16 months out.

    Too much has been expected of henderson, adam and spearing with little on no experience at LFC and non playing the tempo kenny wants. They looked shot by christmas as we couldn't rotate through no options and after suarez banned often played all three.

    United have such a big squad they can maintain that ability to move up and down pitch all season. They started first game centre mids anderson and cleverley now its carrick and scholes. Their wingers can be any from young, nani, park and valencia.

    We've had to struggle with bellamy who cant play two games in a row downing not use to high tempo end to end game and kuyt. Often henderson plays right mid and thats hardly a rest from centre. simply put we started the season how kenny planned tempo wise but we've fallen off.

    You can see why
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  7. #7  
    LFCDynamic is offline Newcomer of the Year
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michaeloven View Post
    Finally a proper post after tripe like ''we are unlucky'' ''goalkeepers become godlike''

    If you look back at the goal suarez scored there were 5players in the box which made it harder to defend and mark each one of them.
    thanks
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    Coach, you really are hilarious. I've agreed with you at certain points but sometimes you're just off the wall. Only a few months ago you argued vehemently that selling/loaning Meireles and Aquilani was great business and now we have a squad who is 100% committed to LFC. We're younger and better and blah blah blah blah blah. Now you're claiming inexperience and lack of depth as our major issues. For a guy who claims to see things in a few minutes, you sure whiffed on that one.....

    As for our issue, right now it's Jamie Carragher. The man simply refuses to play a decent line. Any time anyone gets the ball, he goes into full retreat. Sometimes I'm surprised he doesn't run right off the pitch. Him constantly in retreat mode makes it impossible for the other defenders to challenge the ball early because Jamie kills any chance of an offsides trap. The other defenders simply cannot keep track of the defensive line with Carragher on the pitch. It's also giving the midfield an impossible job. The more distance between the strikers and defense, the more space in the midfield. It's simply impossible for our current players to cover so much ground. With someone like Lucas, who has become a very good reader of the game and a ball winner, we could play a bit softer of a line. Without him, we just have a bunch of midfielders running around trying to fill up dangerous spaces.

    In the end, we need to be fitter and more committed to defense. If we lose the ball, we need to work as a team to get it back. This means no crying and moaning. Lose the ball, go find a man, swarm the ball, and get it back. This kind of pressing creates easy goals. We also need a more athletic back line. With Skrtel, Agger, and Lucas we're okay but the second we lose any of those three, we're sunk. We clearly need another CB to rotate with Skrtel and Agger who is very athletic and aggressive. Obviously we also need another ball winner of a very high standard. Spearing has potential but if we really want to finish regularly in the top 4, he probably isn't up to the standard required. The attacking 4/5 need to be a lot better too. Andy and Suarez cannot keep complaining and moaning. No more focusing on the ref or getting frustrated. Gerrard can't take plays off and get frustrated. Henderson needs to show a higher level of aggression. Adam needs to not fall behind the play or run 15 yards to challenge a ball that he has no hope in getting to. Downing and Bellamy need to read the opponent better. Kuyt needs to actually win a couple of challenges (terrible tackler).

    Basically, the whole team needs to be fit and ready to commit to defense. We need to shorten the field (max 40 yards between striker and defender). Win our challenges.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RossMosh View Post
    Coach, you really are hilarious. I've agreed with you at certain points but sometimes you're just off the wall. Only a few months ago you argued vehemently that selling/loaning Meireles and Aquilani was great business and now we have a squad who is 100% committed to LFC. We're younger and better and blah blah blah blah blah. Now you're claiming inexperience and lack of depth as our major issues. For a guy who claims to see things in a few minutes, you sure whiffed on that one.....

    As for our issue, right now it's Jamie Carragher. The man simply refuses to play a decent line. Any time anyone gets the ball, he goes into full retreat. Sometimes I'm surprised he doesn't run right off the pitch. Him constantly in retreat mode makes it impossible for the other defenders to challenge the ball early because Jamie kills any chance of an offsides trap. The other defenders simply cannot keep track of the defensive line with Carragher on the pitch. It's also giving the midfield an impossible job. The more distance between the strikers and defense, the more space in the midfield. It's simply impossible for our current players to cover so much ground. With someone like Lucas, who has become a very good reader of the game and a ball winner, we could play a bit softer of a line. Without him, we just have a bunch of midfielders running around trying to fill up dangerous spaces.

    In the end, we need to be fitter and more committed to defense. If we lose the ball, we need to work as a team to get it back. This means no crying and moaning. Lose the ball, go find a man, swarm the ball, and get it back. This kind of pressing creates easy goals. We also need a more athletic back line. With Skrtel, Agger, and Lucas we're okay but the second we lose any of those three, we're sunk. We clearly need another CB to rotate with Skrtel and Agger who is very athletic and aggressive. Obviously we also need another ball winner of a very high standard. Spearing has potential but if we really want to finish regularly in the top 4, he probably isn't up to the standard required. The attacking 4/5 need to be a lot better too. Andy and Suarez cannot keep complaining and moaning. No more focusing on the ref or getting frustrated. Gerrard can't take plays off and get frustrated. Henderson needs to show a higher level of aggression. Adam needs to not fall behind the play or run 15 yards to challenge a ball that he has no hope in getting to. Downing and Bellamy need to read the opponent better. Kuyt needs to actually win a couple of challenges (terrible tackler).

    Basically, the whole team needs to be fit and ready to commit to defense. We need to shorten the field (max 40 yards between striker and defender). Win our challenges.
    Insulting as it is, that made me laugh
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  10. #10  
    LFCDynamic is offline Newcomer of the Year
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBear83 View Post
    Follow Barca's 6 second rule maybe?
    I don't knw abt it. (Though I get a rough idea by the name) What is it?
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  11. #11  
    robertretford is offline Academy prospect
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFCDynamic View Post
    I don't knw abt it. (Though I get a rough idea by the name) What is it?
    We do a version of it, they chase the ball for 5 seconds to get it back after losing possession, we keep possession for 5 seconds before giving it back.
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  12. #12  
    LFCDynamic is offline Newcomer of the Year
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertretford View Post
    We do a version of it, they chase the ball for 5 seconds to get it back after losing possession, we keep possession for 5 seconds before giving it back.
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    http://forums.liverpoolfc.tv/threads...ret-To-Success

    Talks about Barca's defensive strategies. It would be very difficult to implement all of these for us simply because we don't have 80% of the possession and a squad full of some of the best players in the world, but there are certain things we could and should look into adopting.
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  14. #14  
    LFCDynamic is offline Newcomer of the Year
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    Quote Originally Posted by RossMosh View Post
    http://forums.liverpoolfc.tv/threads...ret-To-Success

    Talks about Barca's defensive strategies. It would be very difficult to implement all of these for us simply because we don't have 80% of the possession and a squad full of some of the best players in the world, but there are certain things we could and should look into adopting.
    thanks for the link
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFCDynamic View Post
    In the last 20 minutes of the Aston Villa game we applied or at least seemed to apply more pressure. This and determination are the 2 most probable reasons that lead to us getting our goal. This, I believe is what we've been lacking all season in the league. We need more of this and I'll try and show my ideas of how we can do that in this thread;
    I was also watching Man Utd today, hoping (though bleak) that QPR would thwart them. However, the pressure they applied was brilliant (though I'd hate to admit it). Yes the ref was pathetic too, but that's not the point. They were dominant through out the game.


    Against Man city in the League Cup in the first half we closed them down, stopped there passes reaching their targets, keeping the ball and having two rows of four while defending andmore importantly the back for woring in unison.
    The factors for this in my opinion are:
    -QPR were weakened by the red card, and they were probably a bit apprehensive.

    -United came in waves unlike us who just seem to arrive like 1 big tsunami at times and waste the chances. What I mean by this is, United formed something like a circle around the QPR attacking area. This prevented QPR from venturing into United's third and also allowed United to get the ball back easily when QPR cleared the ball...

    -Though some scum fans criticize them for not shooting enough, I believe this is actually a good thing. Our statistics can be slightly misrepresenting considering the number of non-clear cut chances (If you could put it that way) we've tried to take on. They seemed to be far more patient than us, compared to how we played Villa in the first half.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to model our team behind the scum. Definitely not, I'm a red through and through, but what I'm trying to say is they demonstrated how to put pressure on certain teams today, we have been failing to do this and this can be something we can work on to end our poor run of form in front of goal.

    So what I think could help us is;
    - Getting more men, in and around the D.

    - When one of our players moves forward, another 3 at least should follow immediately to support him. E.g. as RossMosh suggested when players like Suarez and Gerrard are on the ball we need other players making runs and offering themselves as options to pass to. This will either free up some space or drag a defender or two away from the person on the ball. We played like this once Kenny returned(last season), why revert now?

    - We must be more patient in our decision making. If you shoot you don’t score, yes. But that doesn’t mean we shoot just for the sake of shooting or out of frustration.

    - We need to go at the opposition in waves and for that to happen we need our full-backs to be over lapping more. While Enrique does that quite often and enough, when Johnson is not around, Kelly (& Flanno) don’t do likewise and that’s part of what they have to work on a bit more.

    - Playing Henderson on the right hand side just doesn’t work. Play Stevie or Downing there as someone else suggested to get real width and Bellamy or Maxi on the left. Because Kuyt and Bellamy both have a tendency cut in or get into striking positions when they’re played as wingers. (Bellamy especially on the right hand side).

    - I may have missed out on a few points I had in mind considering this was a longish article, and I will add that through the course of this thread if I have to. I thank everyone who has taken the patience to read this including the mod who approved this

    If you look back at the Man City league Cup game. We stopped them from passing, keeping the ball and attacking by closing them down, blocking there pasess and Liverpool were organised with a two rows of back four at all times.

    We need to go back to the 4-4-2...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balanced View Post
    If you look back at the Man City league Cup game. We stopped them from passing, keeping the ball and attacking by closing them down, blocking there pasess and Liverpool were organised with a two rows of back four at all times.

    We need to go back to the 4-4-2...
    We parked the bus. That's useful when we play the top 5 teams in the league. How about when we play the other 14 teams? People complained to no end when Rafa played slightly too defensively against the bottom dwellers. Imagine us full on parking the bus. Then again, Kenny could probably pull it off. No one is giving him any grief in the media.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RossMosh View Post
    We parked the bus. That's useful when we play the top 5 teams in the league. How about when we play the other 14 teams? People complained to no end when Rafa played slightly too defensively against the bottom dwellers. Imagine us full on parking the bus. Then again, Kenny could probably pull it off. No one is giving him any grief in the media.
    You are joking with that one aren't you?
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    Its quite simple. Drop Carragher and push the defence up.

    Make sure Carroll and Adam are not playing and replace them with players that can run.

    Once that is accomplished instruct the players to apply pressure to the opposition.
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertretford View Post
    You are joking with that one aren't you?
    It's taken us falling to 8th and losing 6 in 7 for the media to start giving him a bit of a hard time. When you watch a game live, rarely is a pundit talking negatively about Kenny. AVB struggled a bit and all the pundits could talk about was how awful he was. Kenny has gotten off easy.

    Fact is, the English media and pundits give players and managers from the UK a free pass. Carroll gets the benefit of the doubt while David Luiz is lambasted. David Luiz is linked to a move to Barcelona and has only 3 fewer goals then the same Andy Carroll but magically David Luiz gets beaten up any time he makes a mistake. Barcelona wouldn't take Andy Carroll if we gave him to them for free and offered to pay his wages.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RossMosh View Post
    We parked the bus. That's useful when we play the top 5 teams in the league. How about when we play the other 14 teams? People complained to no end when Rafa played slightly too defensively against the bottom dwellers. Imagine us full on parking the bus. Then again, Kenny could probably pull it off. No one is giving him any grief in the media.
    Yea maybe we need to be lose against the lesser teams but we should still be organized. the league is getting better by the year and that's why we lost to lesser teams we have to treat every team with the respect because if we don't then we will in the same position next year. Each game should be treated as like we are playing a final to do this the backroom staff needs to motivate our players to play if not then we will be renowned for no confidence and no motivation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balanced View Post
    Yea maybe we need to be lose against the lesser teams but we should still be organized. the league is getting better by the year and that's why we lost to lesser teams we have to treat every team with the respect because if we don't then we will in the same position next year. Each game should be treated as like we are playing a final to do this the backroom staff needs to motivate our players to play if not then we will be renowned for no confidence and no motivation.
    Don't agree. I think United have it right in a lot of ways. They don't respect any of the bottom dwellers. They typically play their most aggressive lineups against teams like these. It's very simple. They play a ridiculously high line (center halves are typically 5-10 yards into the opponent's half) and attack attack and attack. They challenge these players to beat them with a great pass or a great striker. They challenge teams to pass their way out of their pressure. They challenge teams to show a bit of brilliance. The fact is, these players aren't capable of being brilliant regularly and as a result, typically fail when challenged.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RossMosh View Post
    Coach, you really are hilarious. I've agreed with you at certain points but sometimes you're just off the wall. Only a few months ago you argued vehemently that selling/loaning Meireles and Aquilani was great business and now we have a squad who is 100% committed to LFC. We're younger and better and blah blah blah blah blah. Now you're claiming inexperience and lack of depth as our major issues. For a guy who claims to see things in a few minutes, you sure whiffed on that one.....

    As for our issue, right now it's Jamie Carragher. The man simply refuses to play a decent line. Any time anyone gets the ball, he goes into full retreat. Sometimes I'm surprised he doesn't run right off the pitch. Him constantly in retreat mode makes it impossible for the other defenders to challenge the ball early because Jamie kills any chance of an offsides trap. The other defenders simply cannot keep track of the defensive line with Carragher on the pitch. It's also giving the midfield an impossible job. The more distance between the strikers and defense, the more space in the midfield. It's simply impossible for our current players to cover so much ground. With someone like Lucas, who has become a very good reader of the game and a ball winner, we could play a bit softer of a line. Without him, we just have a bunch of midfielders running around trying to fill up dangerous spaces.

    In the end, we need to be fitter and more committed to defense. If we lose the ball, we need to work as a team to get it back. This means no crying and moaning. Lose the ball, go find a man, swarm the ball, and get it back. This kind of pressing creates easy goals. We also need a more athletic back line. With Skrtel, Agger, and Lucas we're okay but the second we lose any of those three, we're sunk. We clearly need another CB to rotate with Skrtel and Agger who is very athletic and aggressive. Obviously we also need another ball winner of a very high standard. Spearing has potential but if we really want to finish regularly in the top 4, he probably isn't up to the standard required. The attacking 4/5 need to be a lot better too. Andy and Suarez cannot keep complaining and moaning. No more focusing on the ref or getting frustrated. Gerrard can't take plays off and get frustrated. Henderson needs to show a higher level of aggression. Adam needs to not fall behind the play or run 15 yards to challenge a ball that he has no hope in getting to. Downing and Bellamy need to read the opponent better. Kuyt needs to actually win a couple of challenges (terrible tackler).

    Basically, the whole team needs to be fit and ready to commit to defense. We need to shorten the field (max 40 yards between striker and defender). Win our challenges.

    You may see it that way. You're free to but that's not what i said. I think Meireles clearly had to go for financial reasons, I think Aquilani, Cole and Babel could never play the system Kenny wants from his midfield.

    I actually think Meireles fitted the system well, he;s got great energy and movement. However we had an ageing squad that needed to be reduced and finances dictating he would have stayed.

    But Meireles leaving isn't the issue I'm highlighting. I'm saying after he left Stevie G had a massive set back. In addition to that Lucas received a long term injury.

    With the combination of the three events it left just Spearing, Henderson and Adam as our only centre mids for large chunks of the season. That's difficult especially for rotation and it's a lot to expect such an inexperienced trio to cope not just with regular first team games for LFC but really for the physical demands.

    Spearing was in the reserves last year, Henderson at Sunderland and Adam at Blackpool and will have never had the physical demands of a high tempo pressing game or the emotional demands of playing under such pressure at a big club.

    That's why our level dropped after a gruelling Christmas, the energy levels were gone. They hadn't had a break due to injuries to Gerrard and Lucas and when Suarez was injured all three were called upon.

    I agree a higher line would condense the space the midfield had to cover. The issue is pace. Skrtel has a little bit Carragher, Coates and Agger have even less. If you watch first game of the season we suffered second half because of a high line we simply couldn't cope with Sessegnon and Gyan's pace in behind and neither are the quickest strikers around.

    I think our full backs could offer more support in pressing. Our centre backs struggle one v one so there is a reluctance for our full backs to squeeze up but as shown since Kelly has been introduced (goal against everton where he wins high up henderson then feeds through) it can profit.

    We have a fit squad, we've asked a little too much from our midfield to cover the ground. 1 through lack of ability to rotate the engine room due to injuries to Gerrard and Lucas and 2 Because we're susceptible to pace in behind and defend quite deep.

    Personally I'd still risk a higher line, simply because we defend set pieces and crosses so poorly risking a run in behind if we're pressing properly may be less costly. Perhaps Kenny wants to do that but is aware of the demands already placed physically on the trio?

    Football is always more complex than you first think. That's why managers are paid so much
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    we need to push higher up the pitch,our defence, agger and skrtel are good at bringing the ball out of defence. we need to speed up our midfield,were too slow getting the ball into the box,and we need strikers who score goals
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    Hindsight is lovely isn't it? Some of us were saying those things back in September........

    Getting rid of Meireles and Aquilani were huge mistakes which is clearly shown by your admittance that Adam, Henderson, and Spearing haven't been up to snuff. Meanwhile Meireles and Aquilani aren't brilliant defenders but they are fit, able, and smart players. They can run around and press the ball. They've proven it their whole career playing for top teams. So while you can quote financial ramifications and whatever else, the fact is, with those 2 players we'd be much higher up on the table. We'd score more goals and get more points. Even if you don't agree, I suggest you keep it to yourself because it's not a point worth arguing as you'd be wrong.

    I also think it's weak to mention the first game of the season as evidence of anything. We had our 3rd choice RB, 3rd choice CB, and a LB who literally just joined the team. Not to mention we were integrated 3 new midfielders into our lineup.

    The one thing we agree on is that our overall quality in defense needs to improve. I know you don't like Agger and I agree with some of your opinions of him, but I think they are vastly over stated and harsh. In the end, we need a 3rd choice CB who is more athletic. We also clearly need another high quality ball winning CM. With those two improvements we'll be a better squad. Sadly that doesn't make us a top 4 team. Still need a striker, wide players, and a central midfield play maker.
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    Quote Originally Posted by maradona4liverpool View Post
    The balance and quality of players in the right areas make your uniteds what they are.. Unfortunately we don't have that but the theory is there for people to see..
    Spot on, and I'd like to add their manager.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RossMosh View Post
    Hindsight is lovely isn't it? Some of us were saying those things back in September........

    Getting rid of Meireles and Aquilani were huge mistakes which is clearly shown by your admittance that Adam, Henderson, and Spearing haven't been up to snuff. Meanwhile Meireles and Aquilani aren't brilliant defenders but they are fit, able, and smart players. They can run around and press the ball. They've proven it their whole career playing for top teams. So while you can quote financial ramifications and whatever else, the fact is, with those 2 players we'd be much higher up on the table. We'd score more goals and get more points. Even if you don't agree, I suggest you keep it to yourself because it's not a point worth arguing as you'd be wrong.

    I also think it's weak to mention the first game of the season as evidence of anything. We had our 3rd choice RB, 3rd choice CB, and a LB who literally just joined the team. Not to mention we were integrated 3 new midfielders into our lineup.

    The one thing we agree on is that our overall quality in defense needs to improve. I know you don't like Agger and I agree with some of your opinions of him, but I think they are vastly over stated and harsh. In the end, we need a 3rd choice CB who is more athletic. We also clearly need another high quality ball winning CM. With those two improvements we'll be a better squad. Sadly that doesn't make us a top 4 team. Still need a striker, wide players, and a central midfield play maker.
    That's not the point I made in the slightest. When Adam, Spearing and Henderson were called upon they were superb until Christmas. They gave us a decent position in League and great performances in Cups. The problem has been not being able to support and rotate them.

    Because they're so inexperienced only Spearing had any experience in fact at LFC it would be crazy to rely on a brand new midfield, but they actually did themselves credit. To say one stepped up from reserves the other from Sunderland and Blackpool it's amazing they kept us in touch with top 4, it's a very young trio too especially when compared with Barry, De Jong and Toure or Scholes and Carrick or Essien, Lampard, Meireles.

    I actually think given the previous season Meireles would have offered something but Aquilani little. Meireles played central midfield under Hodgson and it didn't work. He doesn't enjoy tackling and it was too weak with Lucas. He performed best as an attacking midfielder with two holding players behind him in Lucas and Spearing.

    Given Lucas and Gerrard were injured, Meireles would have provided less protection as a central midfielder than Adam or Henderson and wouldn't have worked. Where he would have been effective is at the top of a three, where he played so well under Kenny.

    He'd have been a regular and you could have rotated Spearing, Adam and Henderson more as centre mids and kept them fresher, added a little more goalscoring threat and quality as well as experience.

    When he left, I saw the logic made sense financially. Looking back now Gerrard was set back and Lucas injured it left us short of experience and numbers. I fully expected Gerrard and Henderson to fill that attacking berth but once Gerrard was set back it was asking a lot for Henderson to take up mantle so young in his first season.

    In any case we varied formation, often not playing an attacking mid and going 4-4-2 which Meireles wouldn't have fitted.

    I can see with hindsight how we may have got that one wrong, he couldn't tackle but pressed well and off the striker would have been great to have around. Cole and Aquilani really didn't fit any kenny system have no worried about their decisions.

    I agree though with Meireles here we'd have been higher up the table.
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    Yeah. I've often wondered why we only seem to have two or three players around the box when attacking during the early stages of games instead of going for it from the off.

    It sounds simple to put teams under pressure early but there must be a reason why we hold off ( usually until we lose a goal or the are into the last 15 mins of a game ) which only the management team are aware off.

    That said , a lot of it must be down to player confidence also. Surely the guys must get a sense of a team being there for the taking and don't need Kenny and the boys to tell them to press on. Perhaps they don't give a **** as they get paid either way???

    We did seem to press early and high up in the games toward the end of last term but not so much this season. Strange.!
    Last edited by Davke12345; 9-4-12 at 12:17.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davke12345 View Post
    Yeah. I've often wondered why we only seem to have two or three players around the box when attacking during the early stages of games instead of going for it from the off.

    It sounds simple to put teams under pressure early but there must be a reason why we hold off ( usually until we lose a goal or the are into the last 15 mins of a game ) which only the management team are aware off.

    That said , a lot of it must be down to player confidence also. Surely the guys must get a sense of a team being there for the taking and don't need Kenny and the boys to tell them to press on.

    We did seem to press early and high up in the games toward the end of last term but not so much this season. Strange.!

    There was some talk that Mourinho runs drills to this effect. He ensures each player defends in position, 4 defenders, 3 centre mids and they do not press until their opponents make a mistake. As soon as that mistake is spotted or occurs the team have licence to break, full backs, at least one centre mid and join the wingers in a quick attack.

    It requires pace of course but the mentality to immediately respond as a unit. Often the psychological impact is teams are in a more vulnerable state the split second after a mistake. The player making the mistake immediately feels bad and his feelings are usually centred towards himself rather than rectifying, even if the delay in reaction is short it is an opportunity.

    In the same bracket his team mates react with frustration and not immediately to reposition and again you can catch them out quickly. Often the term clinical is used and rightly so.

    Confidence plays a huge part. If you are low on confidence and your team mate makes a mistake your less likely to react as you believe its happening again. High confidence teams react instantly and positively like the mistake doesn't matter and you win the ball back quickly.

    There is some merit to building a side to obtain a 'killer instinct' also the quicker you attack lessens your vulnerability a quick attack, incisive then back into position was a Chelsea hallmark. I think Steve Clark will be familiar with this system.

    It usually requires a large target man Drogba, who you can hit from almost anywhere and quick forwards, midfielders to join instantly. Or it could be a more pleasing passing game requiring accurate fast passing and moving to move up collectively.

    Perhaps Carroll is meant to be our Drogba, though right now the support doesn't come quick enough. Downing and Henderson left and right are often too deep and lack a little burst of pace to support (though Downing is strange sometimes looks quick sometimes not).

    Against Newcastle at home seemed to work with Bellamy and Gerrard joining Carroll but Suarez has to be incorporated. It's interesting to see how thsi squad will develop tactically and in terms of personell
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach791 View Post
    That's not the point I made in the slightest. When Adam, Spearing and Henderson were called upon they were superb until Christmas. They gave us a decent position in League and great performances in Cups. The problem has been not being able to support and rotate them.

    Because they're so inexperienced only Spearing had any experience in fact at LFC it would be crazy to rely on a brand new midfield, but they actually did themselves credit. To say one stepped up from reserves the other from Sunderland and Blackpool it's amazing they kept us in touch with top 4, it's a very young trio too especially when compared with Barry, De Jong and Toure or Scholes and Carrick or Essien, Lampard, Meireles.

    I actually think given the previous season Meireles would have offered something but Aquilani little. Meireles played central midfield under Hodgson and it didn't work. He doesn't enjoy tackling and it was too weak with Lucas. He performed best as an attacking midfielder with two holding players behind him in Lucas and Spearing.

    Given Lucas and Gerrard were injured, Meireles would have provided less protection as a central midfielder than Adam or Henderson and wouldn't have worked. Where he would have been effective is at the top of a three, where he played so well under Kenny.

    He'd have been a regular and you could have rotated Spearing, Adam and Henderson more as centre mids and kept them fresher, added a little more goalscoring threat and quality as well as experience.

    When he left, I saw the logic made sense financially. Looking back now Gerrard was set back and Lucas injured it left us short of experience and numbers. I fully expected Gerrard and Henderson to fill that attacking berth but once Gerrard was set back it was asking a lot for Henderson to take up mantle so young in his first season.

    In any case we varied formation, often not playing an attacking mid and going 4-4-2 which Meireles wouldn't have fitted.

    I can see with hindsight how we may have got that one wrong, he couldn't tackle but pressed well and off the striker would have been great to have around. Cole and Aquilani really didn't fit any kenny system have no worried about their decisions.

    I agree though with Meireles here we'd have been higher up the table.
    1. No one accept Lucas was superb in the beginning of the season. Lucas made up for all of the other players deficiencies in defense. Maybe he was just trying to keep the tradition going, because we know Mascherano covered him A LOT his first few seasons. Either way, I wouldn't say any of those players were superb at any point this season.

    2. By December we had played 25 games maybe? How is getting tired half way through the season acceptable by any standard? You make it seem like just because a player came from a different club that they should be expected to basically nose dive off a cliff after December.

    3. Aquilani shows every time he plays he isn't afraid to press the ball and work hard. Is he the hardest worker? No. Hardest presser? No. But he's been at top teams and knows how to press the ball and take up important positions. Shrugging him off as a nothing player is irrational. AC Milan didn't pick him up for giggles. They grabbed him because he's a good player.

    4. I can count the number of times Meireles played CM on one hand. He's not a great tackler but he takes up good positions and has an excellent work rate. He's proven this his entire career. He could have easily played with Lucas and in fact in one of those few central midfield performances, he put in one of his best performances as a Liverpool player. Considering Lucas' form this year he masked how terrible of a defender Charlie Adam is. I think he could have made up for Raul Meireles' deficiencies.

    5. Why are people shocked by injury? Gerrard hasn't been fit for three seasons. Lucas hasn't been injured basically his whole Liverpool career. We were living off borrowed time. The severity of his injury may be unexpected but the fact he was injured shouldn't be. That's why we need a big squad with lots of options if we want to finish in the top 4.

    6. Meireles is a box to box midfielder. Why you think he's second striker is beyond me.

    In the end, I find your new stance hilarious. Only a few months ago you were absolutely sold on everything we were doing as a club. Now we hit a rough patch and you're back peddling but pretending you aren't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RossMosh View Post
    1. No one accept Lucas was superb in the beginning of the season. Lucas made up for all of the other players deficiencies in defense. Maybe he was just trying to keep the tradition going, because we know Mascherano covered him A LOT his first few seasons. Either way, I wouldn't say any of those players were superb at any point this season.

    2. By December we had played 25 games maybe? How is getting tired half way through the season acceptable by any standard? You make it seem like just because a player came from a different club that they should be expected to basically nose dive off a cliff after December.

    3. Aquilani shows every time he plays he isn't afraid to press the ball and work hard. Is he the hardest worker? No. Hardest presser? No. But he's been at top teams and knows how to press the ball and take up important positions. Shrugging him off as a nothing player is irrational. AC Milan didn't pick him up for giggles. They grabbed him because he's a good player.

    4. I can count the number of times Meireles played CM on one hand. He's not a great tackler but he takes up good positions and has an excellent work rate. He's proven this his entire career. He could have easily played with Lucas and in fact in one of those few central midfield performances, he put in one of his best performances as a Liverpool player. Considering Lucas' form this year he masked how terrible of a defender Charlie Adam is. I think he could have made up for Raul Meireles' deficiencies.

    5. Why are people shocked by injury? Gerrard hasn't been fit for three seasons. Lucas hasn't been injured basically his whole Liverpool career. We were living off borrowed time. The severity of his injury may be unexpected but the fact he was injured shouldn't be. That's why we need a big squad with lots of options if we want to finish in the top 4.

    6. Meireles is a box to box midfielder. Why you think he's second striker is beyond me.

    In the end, I find your new stance hilarious. Only a few months ago you were absolutely sold on everything we were doing as a club. Now we hit a rough patch and you're back peddling but pretending you aren't.
    This isn't anew stance. With hindsight mistake letting Meireles go if we had money not to accept the offer.

    1. Three players Spearing, Adam and Henderson. Little to no experience in a Liverpool shirt, little Premiership experience between them. They did admirably with such little experience to improve us from last year. I agree Lucas outshone them all by some distance but he was outshone in the same way when he first came into the side with similar experience level.

    2. I'm suggesting the physical pressure of playing a high tempo pressing game at Liverpool and emotional pressure of playing for a big club with expectation every week that demands more effort is different to playing reserve team football or at Sunderland or Blackpool. I'm not saying it's a given they should tire but it happens, especially when you're unable to rotate much. Most big clubs have big squads with lots of experience, with Gerrard out and then Lucas there was additional pressure and physical demands on this trio who have little more than 2 Premiership seasons between them.

    3. I don't disagree Aquilani is a good player, i think technically he's superb but I think like Meireles the inability to tackle and lack of physical strength meant he struggled as a central midfielder in Premier League football. Meireles can't tackle but can press both both played poorly as central midfielders at Anfield but performed better in a more advanced role at the peak of midfield/ behind striker. That's where Aquilani had his best games at end of Rafa's reign and where Meireles excelled under kenny.

    I totally believe Aquilani like Cole and Babel had to go under Kenny. They struggle with pressing and instinctively don't react to winning back possession. For collective pressing to work each player has to press or it makes the job harder for the other x amount trying to do so more effectively.

    4. Meireles did play centre mid with Lucas and he struggled. He excelled further forward. I know he's a centre mid Internationally and at porto but the game in the English Prem requires different skill set from centre mids unless you play three. I think he was more suited as it was proved further forward.

    5. People weren't shocked at Gerrard getting an injury, he's picked them up his whole career. However after 2001 every year he'd played more than 30 league games. To know he'd be out for 14 montsh consecutive would require great insight.

    6. I don't think he's a second striker. I think in English Football he's best as an advanced midfielder as part of a three, or just off the striker. That's where he played best.

    I totally believe in what we're doing. If you look at every title winning midfield similar characteristics become clear. Ince and Keane, Sherwood and Batty, Petite and Vieira, Keane and Scholes, Makelele, Essien and Lampard. Thiago, Lampard and Makalele.

    Even now when you see Man City who won't won the title but certainly challenged you will see Toure, De Jong and Barry. They're all strong, all competitive, all press, all aggressive.

    The flair tends to more effective a little further forward out of the battle that is the central midfield. You see it wide and you see it in the hole. United have Young, Nani, Valencia and Rooney. City Silva, Aguero, Nasri. Arsenal had it with Pires, Bergkamp, Ljungberg, Chelsea with Robben, Duff, Malouda way back before that Giggs and Kancelskis and Cantona.
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