The meanest thing you ever did

[RedEmmaG]

Sponging benefits that come from other people paying taxes is a great example of "community" and "solidarity", isn't it?

And their own taxes don't forget, EVERYONE pays taxes, try not paying that VAT next time you buy something. But the morality of that act has no bearing on the other act, cos one is wrong there is no causal link to the other being wrong or vice versa.

Someone getting away with theft is okay then?

I'm not condoning his actions

So, we can clearly see those who subscribe to a two wrongs make a right system of morality. Justifying one immoral act by referring to a "but he did something wrong first sir" defence.

And then we have the "if 600 people in Westminster have said it is wrong, it's wrong" kind of morality. It's the LAW don't you know.

The morality of screwing the social aside ( cos it has no moral bearing on grassing), grassing is in most cases, imo wrong, anti-social and disempowering. But then I never was a fan of Judas myself and could see clearly the moral lesson of that story.

[RogerHuntelaar]

And their own taxes don't forget, EVERYONE pays taxes, try not paying that VAT next time you buy something. But the morality of that act has no bearing on the other act, cos one is wrong there is no causal link to the other being wrong or vice versa.





So, we can clearly see those who subscribe to a two wrongs make a right system of morality. Justifying one immoral act by referring to a "but he did something wrong first sir" defence.

And then we have the "if 600 people in Westminster have said it is wrong, it's wrong" kind of morality. It's the LAW don't you know.

The morality of screwing the social aside ( cos it has no moral bearing on grassing), grassing is in most cases, imo wrong, anti-social and disempowering. But then I never was a fan of Judas myself and could see clearly the moral lesson of that story.

If someone steals from the government, he is stealing from me. I don't see why it would be immoral to report this. Isn't it immoral to not report it?

[RedEmmaG]

I kind of have to agree with Emma, I live just outside Belfast and absolutely there is a culture against touting, including as far as all touts are targets Fair enough it can annoy you to no end when you are struggling and someone else is milking the hell out of benefits and using your tax money to an extent. But at the same time it's part of my culture to hate the authorities and grassing is unacceptable, if only to preserve my own self-respect.

I'd guess it's generally a class thing, middle class people don't usually have to deal with the state so they have an intellectual at best relationship with it, idealised into them repeating what the state tells them about its role. Whereas working class people get harassed day to day by the police, have to deal with the DWP etc etc and soon realise there's a them and us situation, they build up a healthy distrust of those in power and thus grassing is seen as selling out your side.

[GiorgosCarraGoonies]

And their own taxes don't forget, EVERYONE pays taxes, try not paying that VAT next time you buy something. But the morality of that act has no bearing on the other act, cos one is wrong there is no causal link to the other being wrong or vice versa.





So, we can clearly see those who subscribe to a two wrongs make a right system of morality. Justifying one immoral act by referring to a "but he did something wrong first sir" defence.

And then we have the "if 600 people in Westminster have said it is wrong, it's wrong" kind of morality. It's the LAW don't you know.

The morality of screwing the social aside ( cos it has no moral bearing on grassing), grassing is in most cases, imo wrong, anti-social and disempowering. But then I never was a fan of Judas myself and could see clearly the moral lesson of that story.

I find that a bit nonsensical, to be honest. "Two wrongs make a right" has nothing to do with it. If thieving benefits is a wrong, I'm not sure how reporting it could also be considered as such. I've never "grassed" anyone in my life, but there's nothing wrong with reporting a benefits cheat.

[RedEmmaG]

If someone steals from the government, he is stealing from me. I don't see why it would be immoral to not report this. Isn't it immoral to not report it?

I find it worrying that you equate yourself with your government to be honest.

On the issue of you having had something stolen from you, "stealing" is to deprive someone of their lawful right to something; how much was taken away from you by this? Nothing. You and I did not have anything taken away from us and thus, nothing was stolen from us. But, that's not the issue I am not condoning the screwing of the social, I am not debating the morality of that at all I'm just pointing out YOU and I and the government are quite different things.

Let me ask you this, do you always feel the need to go tell someone who has the power to throw people in a box whenever you hear about someone doing something wrong? I don't subscribe to a black and white school of morality, there are shades of grey like stealing. If someone steals food out of hunger I have no problem, If it was murder then fair enough but that's to protect others. In many cases I do not feel a moral obligation to have someone inflict harm on another, irrespective of what they have done.

[GiorgosCarraGoonies]

I find it worrying that you equate yourself with your government to be honest.

On the issue of you having had something stolen from you, "stealing" is to deprive someone of their lawful right to something; how much was taken away from you by this? Nothing. You and I did not have anything taken away from us and thus, nothing was stolen from us. But, that's not the issue I am not condoning the screwing of the social, I am not debating the morality of that at all I'm just pointing out YOU and I and the government are quite different things.

Let me ask you this, do you always feel the need to go tell someone who has the power to throw people in a box whenever you hear about someone doing something wrong? I don't subscribe to a black and white school of morality, there are shades of grey like stealing. If someone steals food out of hunger I have no problem, If it was murder then fair enough but that's to protect others. In many cases I do not feel a moral obligation to have someone inflict harm on another, irrespective of what they have done.

Is a benefits cheat stealing or not?

[MiraclesArePossible]

Well they deserved it and I'd do it all over again

To be honest I'm not sure that was as mean as naming your dog Torres.

[MiraclesArePossible]

I find it worrying that you equate yourself with your government to be honest.

On the issue of you having had something stolen from you, "stealing" is to deprive someone of their lawful right to something; how much was taken away from you by this? Nothing. You and I did not have anything taken away from us and thus, nothing was stolen from us. But, that's not the issue I am not condoning the screwing of the social, I am not debating the morality of that at all I'm just pointing out YOU and I and the government are quite different things.

Let me ask you this, do you always feel the need to go tell someone who has the power to throw people in a box whenever you hear about someone doing something wrong? I don't subscribe to a black and white school of morality, there are shades of grey like stealing. If someone steals food out of hunger I have no problem, If it was murder then fair enough but that's to protect others. In many cases I do not feel a moral obligation to have someone inflict harm on another, irrespective of what they have done.

I think what you've missed is that this guy was a benefit cheat who didn't need the money. There's no hint of a noble act of "stealing for hunger", this man was simply stealing for the sake of it.

[RogerHuntelaar]

I find it worrying that you equate yourself with your government to be honest.

On the issue of you having had something stolen from you, "stealing" is to deprive someone of their lawful right to something; how much was taken away from you by this? Nothing. You and I did not have anything taken away from us and thus, nothing was stolen from us. But, that's not the issue I am not condoning the screwing of the social, I am not debating the morality of that at all I'm just pointing out YOU and I and the government are quite different things.

The money that goes to people who steal from the government could have gone to other policies or people who actually need the money and deserve it. If you don't see how it's wrong to steal benefits from the government and how that affects us all, tells me that you either do it yourself or simply don't realise how the government get their money.

[GiorgosCarraGoonies]

I think what you've missed is that this guy was a benefit cheat who didn't need the money. There's no hint of a noble act of "stealing for hunger", this man was simply stealing for the sake of it.

Exactly.

[RedEmmaG]

Is a benefits cheat stealing or not?

It's depriving the government of money in the same way as say owning a business and getting a computer "for work" tax free but using it for personal use. But it's not stealing from ME, I have had nothing taken away from me as a result of it.

[RogerHuntelaar]

It's depriving the government of money in the same way as say owning a business and getting a computer "for work" tax free but using it for personal use. But it's not stealing from ME, I have had nothing taken away from me as a result of it.

You're wrong. Indirectly you have.

[GiorgosCarraGoonies]

It's depriving the government of money in the same way as say owning a business and getting a computer "for work" tax free but using it for personal use. But it's not stealing from ME, I have had nothing taken away from me as a result of it.

Where does the government get the money?

[RogerHuntelaar]

Where does the government get the money?

From a magic black hole or the banks or something, derp.

[MiraclesArePossible]

It's depriving the government of money in the same way as say owning a business and getting a computer "for work" tax free but using it for personal use. But it's not stealing from ME, I have had nothing taken away from me as a result of it.

Something that disadvantages the collective without affecting the individual does not qualify as less immoral than vice versa.

[RedEmmaG]

. If you don't see how it's wrong to steal benefits from the government.

Ok i'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and guess you haven't read what I have said and are not just being a sophist. To clarify I AM NOT CONDONING HIS ACTIONS. I am not talking about the morality of the benefits cheating. Ok? Grassing and benefits cheats, two different acts ok, do u get it now?

[GiorgosCarraGoonies]

From a magic black hole or the banks or something, derp.

[RogerHuntelaar]

Ok i'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and guess you haven't read what I have said and are not just being a sophist. To clarify I AM NOT CONDONING HIS ACTIONS. I am not talking about the morality of the benefits cheating. Ok? Grassing and benefits cheats, two different acts ok, do u get it now?

So can you explain to me how reporting stealing, which you agreed with me that it is wrong, is bad?

[GiorgosCarraGoonies]

Ok i'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and guess you haven't read what I have said and are not just being a sophist. To clarify I AM NOT CONDONING HIS ACTIONS. I am not talking about the morality of the benefits cheating. Ok? Grassing and benefits cheats, two different acts ok, do u get it now?

If you saw someone stealing an expensive jacket from a clothes shop which you didn't own, would you tell someone in the shop?

[RogerHuntelaar]

If you saw someone stealing an expensive jacket from a clothes shop which you didn't own, would you tell someone in the shop?

Depends if the guy who stole it is from the working class or not.

[MiraclesArePossible]

Ok i'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and guess you haven't read what I have said and are not just being a sophist. To clarify I AM NOT CONDONING HIS ACTIONS. I am not talking about the morality of the benefits cheating. Ok? Grassing and benefits cheats, two different acts ok, do u get it now?

Well, you should be, because that's the issue at hand, and your point is balanced on your being able to demonstrate that benefit cheating is acceptable, otherwise you won't be able to back up your suggestion that he shouldn't have reported him.

[MiraclesArePossible]

If you saw someone stealing an expensive jacket from a clothes shop which you didn't own, would you tell someone in the shop?

Depends on whether he was stealing the jacket to feed himself.

[GiorgosCarraGoonies]

Depends if the guy who stole it is from the working class or not.

Ahh, that makes sense

[Thispilgrim]

What I did was out of anger, I was doing 12 hour shifts and lost the head. Coming from Belfast it's huge taboo to tout someone up. But benefit fraud is stealing, and people who suffer the most is the people that have the least. Because the government hammer the benefit system, while others suffer. I am not saying I had justafcaion for it, because it was done out of anger on my part and not some sort of moral campaign. But the people who suffer most from benefit fraud is the poorest.

[GiorgosCarraGoonies]

Depends on whether he was stealing the jacket to feed himself.

http://images.sodahead.com/profiles/...688451831.jpeg

[MiraclesArePossible]

What I did was out of anger, I was doing 12 hour shifts and lost the head. Coming from Belfast it's huge taboo to tout someone up. But benefit fraud is stealing, and people who suffer the most is the people that have the least. Because the government hammer the benefit system, while others suffer. I am not saying I had justafcaion for it, because it was done out of anger on my part and not some sort of moral campaign. But the people who suffer most from benefit fraud is the poorest.

You did a good thing, don't let anyone tell you otherwise, especially not someone who can't express this without resorting to petty name calling.

[GiorgosCarraGoonies]

What I did was out of anger, I was doing 12 hour shifts and lost the head. Coming from Belfast it's huge taboo to tout someone up. But benefit fraud is stealing, and people who suffer the most is the people that have the least. Because the government hammer the benefit system, while others suffer. I am not saying I had justafcaion for it, because it was done out of anger on my part and not some sort of moral campaign. But the people who suffer most from benefit fraud is the poorest.

You did nothing wrong.

[MiraclesArePossible]

http://images.sodahead.com/profiles/...688451831.jpeg

******* superb

[RedEmmaG]

If you saw someone stealing an expensive jacket from a clothes shop which you didn't own, would you tell someone in the shop?

If I saw someone stealing anything from a business I would do nothing at all, probably smile n think good luck to you. Shops are some of
e biggest thieves around. This thing is worth x but i'll sell it u for x+1 without adding any value to the thing at all. I have no problem with stealing from shops, but I do have a problem with stealing from people. Like I said it's never black and white, it depends. Now, what's this got to do with grassing?

[Thispilgrim]

You did nothing wrong.

Thanks mate.