Notices
Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 136

Thread: Mark my words: This Will Be A Season To Remember.

  1. #1 Fowler Mark my words: This Will Be A Season To Remember. 
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    75
    As results are slow coming some supporters are looking around and blaming everyone from the manager to the owners, the players, the refs, the football gods, and even each other for a slow start. In my not so humble opinion these people are on the wrong track. Though we haven't pulled enough points from our matches, I'm amazed at how quickly this team of mostly young professionals has taken to the change of strategy. They have made watching LFC fun again, despite the subpar record.

    I know there are many here who wish for the Rafulation Mark II. I for one, as a lover of the beautiful game, do not. For the last 3 years the teams under Rafa Benitez became more and more boring, the players got bored and unmotivated, and the brand of footbal got worse. Add to this the release of Xabi Alonso (a true LFC legend in the making) to be replaced by Mascherano (an attitude problem looking for a home), the refusal to play Gerrard in central midfield, Rafa's incessant whining for more and more money, and the blaming of players for not "taking their chances in front of goal" - when we only got 1-3 chances per match with his strategy and my choice is easy.

    Yes, I remember the good days too. Istanbul, Carra and Sami in the D, the hotblooded headgames against Chelsea, etc. But I also remember that no youth players got on the field, that the vast majority of passes were in our own third, that our wage bill was crippling us and costing us millions just in interest, that the stadium was often quiet through boredom even when we were winning, and that we still couldn't score goals on a consistent basis.

    Comparing the shape of the team today with that and I'll take this team.

    The style is wonderful. The kids are getting their chances. The team is happy. All our most important players have signed new long term contracts. Anfield will remain our fortress just as it should (*the people losing their houses is a deep discussion - to be had in greater detail than a mere mention here - but a section of seating should be reserved for the families with free "all-event" tickets and free transportation in perpetuity as part of the deal for the sacrifice). Also, we're spreading word through every avenue available (yeah maybe you think Being Liverpool is a stunt, but it's making money for the team while we don't have the extra 20,000 seats - thereby increasing sales and revenue which is being better managed than any time back to the mid 70's). We've reduced the wage bill and increased sales - a neccesity to buy new players.

    Sometimes you have to take one small step backward in order to gain the space needed to jump forward. Right now we have to rely on the youth payers to fill holes in the squad. That isn't where we really want to be. Yes, we want Sterling, Suso, Wisdom, Shelvey to all play. But we don't want to pressure them by having to rely on them. We want them to get matches but would like to have competent veterans ahead of them. But we don't have that choice. They tried that under Dalglish, and though I love the man, his signings don't provide. We're seeing our so-called skill players, Henderson, Downing, Cole, are average at best. But at least now we get a full evaluation by fire - and we're finding some of our youth is better than their high paid counterpart veterans. This will make our bench stronger in the coming seasons as we can resign the youth and continue to drop the underperformers. Yes, Sterling is a bonafide starter right now, but a bench with veteran Shelvey, Suso, Wisdom, Coates, Assaidi, and a goalie and forward to be named later, provides a spark when needed - and a great starting core of our future.

    Yeah I'm disappointed with the number of points lost (especially the Manchester matches), but I'm not going to yell and scream about it. It was to be expected. But the tactics, the obvious progress, the excitment, the fun, skill, the dominance on the ball, and the wall of sound that is our supporters are back. We've turned the ship around and now we're pushing to gain momentum. But it's a big ship and it takes time. Again, in my opinion, it's going the right direction. And once we all move in that direction, we again become that juggernaut that noone can stop.

    ASIDE:
    Players of the season so far: Johnson and Allen
    Players that can't play this system: Downing, maybe Enrique, and Henderson (though Enrique and Hendo deserve the year imo)
    Players that are underperforming: Reina (sorry Pepe but you know it too), Gerrard, Cole, Pacheco, Borini (give him time)
    Players we need: 1 top world class real goal threat so Suarez can move to the left. a left back
    Youth players to identify: someone to take over for Carra next year - Agger, Skrtel, and Coates are a very very good top 3.
    Players to drop immediately even if we take the loss: Carroll, Downing, Cole, Wilson, Doni, Pacheco

    Peec and donuts.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  2. #2  
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    75
    bump
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  3. #3  
    FistofRage is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    31,017
    and grind
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  4. #4  
    FullMoon is offline Armchair supporter
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    1
    I'll second that.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  5. #5  
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    571
    Agree with most part of the text.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  6. #6  
    TheSoundLady is offline Optimistic Poster of the Season 2013-14
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    28,531
    Wonderful post and I agree with most of it although slightly harsh on Rafa at times.

    Wonderful to see someone else recognize that Joe Allen and Glen Johnson have been our most fantastic performers this season so far, though men like Luis and Agger and Sterling are right up there too and that is wonderful to see

    Also I'm still willing to give Enrique and Henderson time to show they can play in it... and Downing, well, we'll see. His comments recently have made me very angry at him but he could still turn things around on the field after he's done begging Brendan for forgiveness for embarrassing himself and the manager and club with his press comments.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  7. #7  
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    75
    Thanks for the compliment and btw I like that people agree with "most" of the text. If we agreed 100% we'd have nothing to discuss.

    About Rafa:
    At the time I was also a supporter of Rafa because he'd proven he could win and well, I "liked" him. I think he was a top manager for a few years but his stubbornness to adapt to a match was his eventual downfall. I believe his inability to catch on with another great club sort of proves out my opinion on him.

    His tilting defensive strategy was an innovative variation-on-a-theme. It was new, interesting and effective, but it was also offensively very conservative. All in all, our shape on the field, when learned and implemented properly, was stiff and predictable. As other cubs learned it, they recognized how to stifle it up high in the middle, break it down in the midfield with patience as the defensive mids were pulled out of position, and then attack the side backs with speed. That left the backs on an island where they had to force the attacker outside (if they could) and left the defensive mids turned in the wrong direction when a cross was sent in.

    Also, the players never took to his zonal marking system well. I don't know if it was communication or the approach itself but it didn't work.

    While I give him credit for starting Lucas when everyone was saying he wasn't good enough for LFC (that I found unfair to the young man because they were comparing him to Alonso: one of the best holding mids in the game). Without those early starts Lucas would not have developed as he has, so credit is due. But at the time we were SO strong centrally with Gerrard, Alonso, Carra and Sami that I thought, and still believe, breaking that up was like removing the bedrock from under a building. And to do that by moving Stevie to wing and bringing in a known head case who had already failed in the PL with West Ham (Mascherano of course) was ridiculous mismanagement.

    In Istanbul, he brought in Didi Hamann in the second half so Stevie and JAR could advance higher, but that was a manager forced into doing something that wasn't in his original plan. That second half showed we had the players for attacking football, but were held back by the manager (or his strategy): comments made by many players at the time and since (and not just Babel and Pennant either) bear that out.

    So maybe I’m harsh, but I think the analysis is right.

    About the players:
    I agree about Daniel, Luis, and Raheem, and would add to that list Jonjo, Martin, and Nuri (who I really hope stays on). But Joe and Glenn have been more consistent through all the matches, each never dipping below an average match and mostly in the good to great match showings.

    Henderson deserves time because he’s young and talented. It just may be a matter of time before he “gets it”. But it’s pretty obvious he’s slow to grasp the new system. It isn’t talent holding him back but the mental aspects. His decision-making is too slow at this point compared to other young players like Shelvey, Sterling, and Suso.

    Enrique is in a unique position because we have two legitimate veteran side backs, but four young capable replacements. With Robinson, Kelly, Wisdom, and Flanagan all able for spot duty (Kelly able to start when healthy - though he’s not ready for the “big games” imo) if we were to bring in another left sided back it would surely mean Jose would be sold. So we need to see him on the pitch soon and he needs to show he can be the starter there almost immediately so we can spend that money elsewhere.

    That’s why I say Hendo and Enrique should get this year.

    Downing, while a very good footballer in his own right, I think has had enough chances. I’d love to be proven wrong on this but I think he’s a mixed bag of ego and doubt. Ego can be good because it gives him the confidence to take on a defender. Problem is, once that defender is beaten, the doubt seems to enter his head and his shots are good (how many posts can one man hit?), but his crosses – the most important part of his position - have been absolutely dismal (just as they were last year). Still, I think he’d do well in another style, but he’s caught in two minds too often and the rhythm and effectiveness of our short passing game is too often broken by his delayed action/reaction time.

    Oops. This turned out long. Sorry.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  8. #8  
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    23,775
    It is already a season to remember, so many records broken already!
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  9. #9  
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    5,233
    This season will be remembered like when I scattered the flower seeds in my garden last year. This year, they blossomed.

    That wonderful sight of colours, sizes, smells and beauty...now that I remembered and will do forever.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  10. #10  
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    20,867
    So much crap in that post i don't know were to begin.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  11. #11  
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    75
    Debate is the cornerstone of any good thread. Criticism is gladly accepted and considered. Then shoved up yourÖ ahem.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedTrilogy View Post
    It is already a season to remember, so many records broken already!
    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus78 View Post
    This season will be remembered like when I scattered the flower seeds in my garden last year. This year, they blossomed.

    That wonderful sight of colours, sizes, smells and beauty...now that I remembered and will do forever.
    Thank you very much for your glowing reviews. Iíll give them all the credit they deserve: One good laugh. Red, I think I can hear the desperation. Seamus, I hope your garden grows as well as our youth program seems to. I think thatís what you were getting at.

    Quote Originally Posted by DFK6 View Post
    So much crap in that post i don't know were to begin.
    DFK6: Change it to DFK8 if youíre going to post so I know youíre going to defecate on it. Your post is totally useless unless you explain your opinion. Right now itís just a pile of words. Flush, think, and start with the first thing you think is wrong. Otherwise donít waste my time or your life writing words that just make you look pathetic.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  12. #12  
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    3,186
    Completely out of order OP. Really crap. In fact it's been ages since I read something this bad.

    Insulting Rafa every single time you get a chance.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  13. #13  
    MacFoley'1975 is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    36,737
    Downing played a blinder last night. When moved to left back he worked really well with Assiadi and his goal is Liverpool's Europa leage goal of the competition so far.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  14. #14  
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    2,363
    Quote Originally Posted by Macfoley View Post
    Downing played a blinder last night. When moved to left back he worked really well with Assiadi and his goal is Liverpool's Europa leage goal of the competition so far.
    I'd have to disagree, he was poor in the first half, didn't look to take on his man, and gave away some poor possession. At left back he looked very shaky imo. One suicidal ball across the box, and another couple across the midfield that were intercepted. He still looks like a player with very little confidence. Johnson and Asadi looked a much better prospect in the first half I thought.

    Great goal yes, but overall imo a very average performance at best. I really hope left back isn't a serious option for him.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  15. #15  
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    10
    Totally agree with Polster about Downing's performance - good hit for the goal (althought the goalie did just seem to sit down..) but otherwise inneffective in the first half and a liability at left-back.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  16. #16  
    FamousInternationale is offline Directors Box
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    9,386
    The point about Downing is that he has been ineffective in a midfield role. Over time.

    Why? Who knows, but the main problem is that he makes nothing happen around the opposition goal.

    By playing him at left back you rely on him far less as someone to force the issue around the box.

    Question marks defensively are fair enough, admittedly, but going forward I think LB suits him.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  17. #17  
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    13,689
    Awful thread.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  18. #18  
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    11,656
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverman View Post
    I know there are many here who wish for the Rafulation Mark II. I for one, as a lover of the beautiful game, do not. For the last 3 years the teams under Rafa Benitez became more and more boring, the players got bored and unmotivated, and the brand of footbal got worse. Add to this the release of Xabi Alonso (a true LFC legend in the making) to be replaced by Mascherano (an attitude problem looking for a home), the refusal to play Gerrard in central midfield, Rafa's incessant whining for more and more money, and the blaming of players for not "taking their chances in front of goal" - when we only got 1-3 chances per match with his strategy and my choice is easy.
    Mascherano didn't replace Alonso. Even so, Mascherano is a fantastic talent.

    Comparing the shape of the team today with that and I'll take this team.
    I would take the 2nd place team without a doubt.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  19. #19  
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    75
    Again, debate is the cornerstone of any good thread. Criticism is gladly accepted and considered. Then shoved up your… ahem.

    Quote Originally Posted by -SF.Giants- View Post
    Completely out of order OP. Really crap. In fact it's been ages since I read something this bad.

    Insulting Rafa every single time you get a chance.
    SFG: I’m going to number this so you can follow. It’s obvious you’re about to blow a gasket since I can see the steam coming from your ears already.

    1. There’s nothing out of order about discussing ones opinions, observations and conclusions. If you take honest critique as a slight to Rafa you’re missing the point: which is to compare what is happening now with what was happening then. If you take it personally, then you need to take a step back, breath and realize he’s a grown man who doesn’t need you to defend him, especially when what I’ve said was not an attack but a clear critique of the reasons I prefer our new manager over him.

    2. See my response above to DFK6

    3. I supported Rafa (as I will every manager for our club) long after most were calling for his head. I feel he was handicapped by many supporters, a lack of communication, as well as the front office shenanigans that resulted in him unknowingly misinforming his players (i.e. Torres). I feel Rafa is a good man and a person I’d love to sit down and have a lager and a conversation about tactics with. I don’t think there was anything insulting or untrue in my posts if you read it with no preconceived notions. I don’t claim to know more about football than him. I am only commenting on what I saw, heard and read during his tenure – that is easy in comparison to managing a club. I think he would be very successful at most clubs in the world. Overall, experience-wise and success-wise, Brendan Rodgers would love to be mentioned in the same breath as Rafa. I know that most players respected Rafa and he was beloved in the city.

    However, I will not whitewash his time with LFC in order to turn him into a legend. I will not pretend the things that happened didn’t. I will not let my own liking of the man paint his strategy in a different light. I will not become a “yes man” for anyone or for any reason – least of all on a discussion board. And I will not EVER stop giving my honest opinion on something so important as LFC. Period. End of.

    4. Your dismissive attitude to my analysis helps nothing. It only separates us into camps of “pro Rafa” and “anti Rafa” where the truth is, most of us were/are both at different times. That adds nothing to discussion, doesn’t educate either side, and solves nothing.
    5. I repeat - Flush, think, and start with the first thing you think is wrong. Otherwise don’t waste my time or your life writing words that just make you look pathetic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Macfoley View Post
    Downing played a blinder last night. When moved to left back he worked really well with Assiadi and his goal is Liverpool's Europa league goal of the competition so far.
    Mac: I agree with Polster completely in his response.

    Polster: see above response to Mac

    Nottspete: He missed that shot about 10 times last year from either side and another several went against the post. So if he can't up his goal conversion rate I'd rather have a different player on the wing.

    FamousInt: Your first comment is appreciated and I agree he has been ineffective for us under 2 managers. Second comment: Why? I think I explained my opinion on that. His reaction time is too slow. He doesn't fit the one-touch model. And he panics. Third comment has a flip-side to it. If Downing makes a blunder on the wing it almost always takes more to create a goal chance for the other club whereas a blunder in defense almost always leads directly to some kind of chance on goal. Fourth: I don’t want to rely on him defensively and know I can’t rely on him offensively.

    On Downing I’ll add this: The goal is something BR has been telling him to do from day one: cut inside and shoot - both have said it. I feel he is not a thinker on the field and has trouble adjusting his game. That is why I think he’d do better somewhere else where they’d accept his previously successful style and incorporate it into their gameplan: where he won’t be over-thinking, just acting and reacting.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  20. #20  
    FamousInternationale is offline Directors Box
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    9,386
    Rodgers wouldn't want the alternative to cutting inside, which would more or less be a percentage game.

    He doesn't get in behind and play diagonal balls; rather he crosses the ball. That's what he does on the left.

    Neverman I can agree with the limitations of Downing at LB, but for me he is too inhibited to play in midfield.

    Unless there is a huge change in his attitude, we lose something up front by playing him.

    It's an uphill struggle to argue this because he has always been a midfielder, and he isn't designed for Rodgers approach anyway.

    So essentially, i'm not sure he has a future - we'll see. As I said his defensive skillset is a mystery to me.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  21. #21  
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    75
    Quote Originally Posted by -Danny- View Post
    Awful thread.
    Danny: I’m consistently amazed by the binding insight. But as in the song, you’re now dead to me Danny boy – that is, unless you can actually explain your opinion and aren’t just trying to up your “academy prospect” status by posting as many useless brain farts as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Cymru- View Post
    Mascherano didn't replace Alonso. Even so, Mascherano is a fantastic talent.

    I would take the 2nd place team without a doubt.
    Cymru: Your comments are true and false dependent on how you define some words. I’ll try to clarify because I think we’re both right.

    Replacement:
    Mascherano was bought: 10 February, 2007
    Lucas was brought in: 26 July, 2007
    Alonso left for Real: 5 August, 2009

    So within just over 6 months both Masch and Lucas were brought in to play the same position Alonso played and Xabi left 2 years later. So if you’re saying a replacement can only be called that if a player (Alonso) had already left the club, then technically you’re right. But it was also clear that the two signings were meant to be the future in that position so they were the eventual replacements.

    Mascherano is a fantastic talent when his head is screwed on right. Very much like Gattuso though he could be pulled out of his game and was sent off for monumentally stupid cards. Alonso on the other hand was easily one of the best passers in the game and never lost his head. He calmed situations whereas Masch inflamed them.

    Team:
    Actually, when I look at it as just the players on the pitch I also would take the second. But in keeping with the thread, I was stating an overall opinion that includes the style and management systems. Perhaps “club” would have been a better word. Sorry for the confusion.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  22. #22  
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    75
    Quote Originally Posted by FamousInternationale View Post
    Rodgers wouldn't want the alternative to cutting inside, which would more or less be a percentage game.

    He doesn't get in behind and play diagonal balls; rather he crosses the ball. That's what he does on the left.

    Neverman I can agree with the limitations of Downing at LB, but for me he is too inhibited to play in midfield.

    Unless there is a huge change in his attitude, we lose something up front by playing him.

    It's an uphill struggle to argue this because he has always been a midfielder, and he isn't designed for Rodgers approach anyway.

    So essentially, i'm not sure he has a future - we'll see. As I said his defensive skillset is a mystery to me.
    Good post:

    Point 1: Agreed. That’s why Carroll is on loan.

    Points 2-5: Agreed. That’s why he doesn’t fit and as per the original post I think he should be sold to a club that will use his talents. For us he is wasted money in midfield.

    Point 6: On defense he is fast so he can recover quickly. Position-wise he is weak. Decision-making ability is bad especially under pressure no matter where he plays. His first touch is iffy (just compare his to Sterling and Johnson for the perfect examples at each position). His long passing is 50/50 and his short, quick passes are poor. All that together means I don’t want him learning on the job and I don’t think Rodgers would ever rely on him as a LB if he didn’t have to. The good news is that by giving him spot duty we evaluate him and also create a larger market for his services.
    Last edited by Neverman; 26-10-12 at 20:11.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  23. #23  
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    75
    On Rafa and Downing:
    This thread is not an "attack" on either person. My comments are only part of a larger critique and comparison in direct response to posts in the thread.

    On posters:
    This is not a thread for bumper sticker reactionary phrases. If you disagree with what I'm writing, great. Just tell me why you disagree so I can learn. Calling a post "crap" is completely useless because there is no information and so no potential. I'll continue to put the barely literate in their place, the bin.

    Again, debate is the cornerstone of any good thread. Criticism is gladly accepted and considered. Then shoved up your… ahem.
    Last edited by Neverman; 26-10-12 at 20:23.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  24. #24  
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    11,656
    Cymru: Your comments are true and false dependent on how you define some words. Iíll try to clarify because I think weíre both right.

    Replacement:
    Mascherano was bought: 10 February, 2007
    Lucas was brought in: 26 July, 2007
    Alonso left for Real: 5 August, 2009

    So within just over 6 months both Masch and Lucas were brought in to play the same position Alonso played and Xabi left 2 years later. So if youíre saying a replacement can only be called that if a player (Alonso) had already left the club, then technically youíre right. But it was also clear that the two signings were meant to be the future in that position so they were the eventual replacements.

    Mascherano is a fantastic talent when his head is screwed on right. Very much like Gattuso though he could be pulled out of his game and was sent off for monumentally stupid cards. Alonso on the other hand was easily one of the best passers in the game and never lost his head. He calmed situations whereas Masch inflamed them.
    Mascherano is a completely different player to Alonso. He was bought to play alongside him, not as a replacement for him. Mascherano became one of, if not the best defensive midfielders in the world, and was a rock in the centre of the park. Alonso and Masherano was a great partnership, and they performed magnificently alongside one another.

    Regarding Lucas, he was bought as an attacking midfielder, and was one of the brightest talents in Brazil. It can be argued that Mascherano recieved more yellow and redcards due to the style that he played. Mascherano was (is) a industrious player, who would fantastically break down attacks time after time, and he had great aggression, which sometimes did get the better out of him. Alonso was more of a dictator, who elegantly passed the ball around the park. He wouldn't have been able to do what he did so affectively without Masherano alongside him.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  25. #25  
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    75
    Quote Originally Posted by -Cymru- View Post
    Mascherano is a completely different player to Alonso. He was bought to play alongside him, not as a replacement for him. Mascherano became one of, if not the best defensive midfielders in the world, and was a rock in the centre of the park. Alonso and Masherano was a great partnership, and they performed magnificently alongside one another.

    Regarding Lucas, he was bought as an attacking midfielder, and was one of the brightest talents in Brazil. It can be argued that Mascherano recieved more yellow and redcards due to the style that he played. Mascherano was (is) a industrious player, who would fantastically break down attacks time after time, and he had great aggression, which sometimes did get the better out of him. Alonso was more of a dictator, who elegantly passed the ball around the park. He wouldn't have been able to do what he did so affectively without Masherano alongside him.
    Good post.

    I agree Masch and Alonso are different sorts of players, but they do play the same position. You're absolutely right that Alonso is a distributor and Masch is a destroyer and therefore make a great midfield pairing. I agree Rafa was right in that he saw an opportunity to get a great player and Masch did well for a while. But I don't think we needed him in the first place. Even Stevie himself said it was a mistake to break up that central pairing. The central point is not somantics but results. Those are 1. We moved Gerrard out of the center. 2. Took a chance on a proven head case. 3. Spent money that changed but didn't improve our midfield. 4. Led to the leaving of a LFC legend in the making in Alonso.

    Rafa made the mistake in that it was obvious he had a "lifer" in Xabi. Xabi never wanted to leave and would still be a steadying force now but Rafa needed money. He never would have needed that money if he didn't make buy Masch in the first place. It was obvious that Masch was a problem waiting to happen. Maybe it took two years, but when he became unhappy he played like crap or didn't play at all - Exactly the pattern at West Ham (though there it happened faster).

    Btw, the words you use to describe Masch are good but innacurate. Rocks don't lose their tempers. Industrious players are not neccessarily slightly mental. Aggressive players don't put themselves before the team.

    As far as Lucas is concerned, and my memory may be wrong, but I don't think he ever started at attacking mid under Rafa, but I'm positive he played defensive mid often because of Masch's "moods".
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  26. #26  
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    11,656
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverman View Post
    Good post.

    I agree Masch and Alonso are different sorts of players, but they do play the same position. You're absolutely right that Alonso is a distributor and Masch is a destroyer and therefore make a great midfield pairing. I agree Rafa was right in that he saw an opportunity to get a great player and Masch did well for a while. But I don't think we needed him in the first place. Even Stevie himself said it was a mistake to break up that central pairing. The central point is not somantics but results. Those are 1. We moved Gerrard out of the center. 2. Took a chance on a proven head case. 3. Spent money that changed but didn't improve our midfield. 4. Led to the leaving of a LFC legend in the making in Alonso.

    Rafa made the mistake in that it was obvious he had a "lifer" in Xabi. Xabi never wanted to leave and would still be a steadying force now but Rafa needed money. He never would have needed that money if he didn't make buy Masch in the first place. It was obvious that Masch was a problem waiting to happen. Maybe it took two years, but when he became unhappy he played like crap or didn't play at all - Exactly the pattern at West Ham (though there it happened faster).

    Btw, the words you use to describe Masch are good but innacurate. Rocks don't lose their tempers. Industrious players are not neccessarily slightly mental. Aggressive players don't put themselves before the team.

    As far as Lucas is concerned, and my memory may be wrong, but I don't think he ever started at attacking mid under Rafa, but I'm positive he played defensive mid often because of Masch's "moods".
    I personally think that having:

    Alonso - Mascherano with Gerrard ahead of them as a second striker/rightwinger

    is more effective than:

    Alonso - Gerrard

    as the paring of Gerrard and Alonso would leak allot of goals, due to the tactical indiscipline of Gerrard, and playing as the main defensive midfielder would waste Alonso. I don't understand why you believe that buying Mascherano was a mistake. It was the complete opposite in my opinion, and a fantastic signing, even if he was rather distruptive at times.

    Regarding Lucas, you said we bought him to play the Alonso role, which is untrue as we actually signed him as an attacking midfielder, and not as a defensive midfielder as you suggest.

    Even Stevie himself said it was a mistake to break up that central pairing
    Source?

    1. We moved Gerrard out of the center. 2. Took a chance on a proven head case. 3. Spent money that changed but didn't improve our midfield. 4. Led to the leaving of a LFC legend in the making in Alonso.
    Buying Mascherano massively improved our midfield, and it was widely regarded as one of the best midfields in Europe.

    2. Took a chance on a proven head case
    Mascherano was widely known to be a exceptional talent, and was wasted by West Ham.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  27. #27  
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    13,689
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverman View Post
    Danny: I’m consistently amazed by the binding insight. But as in the song, you’re now dead to me Danny boy – that is, unless you can actually explain your opinion and aren’t just trying to up your “academy prospect” status by posting as many useless brain farts as possible.
    I don't need to read anymore thanks, those three beginning paragraphs of absolute tripe is more than enough for me.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  28. #28  
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    75
    Quote Originally Posted by -Danny- View Post
    I don't need to read anymore thanks, those three beginning paragraphs of absolute tripe is more than enough for me.
    Your welcome.

    You are now well on your way to getting dumber.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  29. #29  
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    75
    Quote Originally Posted by -Cymru- View Post
    I personally think that having:
    1. Alonso - Mascherano with Gerrard ahead of them as a second striker/rightwinger is more effective than:
    Alonso - Gerrard

    2. as the paring of Gerrard and Alonso would leak allot of goals

    3. due to the tactical indiscipline of Gerrard,

    4. and playing as the main defensive midfielder would waste Alonso.

    5. I don't understand why you believe that buying Mascherano was a mistake. It was the complete opposite in my opinion, and a fantastic signing, even if he was rather distruptive at times.

    6. Regarding Lucas, you said we bought him to play the Alonso role, which is untrue as we actually signed him as an attacking midfielder, and not as a defensive midfielder as you suggest.

    7. Source?

    8. Buying Mascherano massively improved our midfield, and it was widely regarded as one of the best midfields in Europe.
    Mascherano was widely known to be a exceptional talent, and was wasted by West Ham.
    Good discussion. I think you make fair points.

    1. Alonso Gerrard and Mascherano is naturally better than Alonso and Gerrard. It's 3 to 2! But who could we have gotten on the outside to play along with Alonso and Gerrard?

    2. Alonso and Gerrard weren't "leaking a lot of goals" before Mascherano was signed so why would they have suddenly started? They had a wonderful understanding in the center and it was seldom that Alonso was stuck on an island.

    3. Rafa wanted to play 2 defensive style midfielders. Gerrard is a nearly unique talent who knows how to play from the back and when to run and has the ability to pull the team forward on long runs and deep passes. But he didn't quite fit what Rafa wanted because he IS better playing more advanced. So Rafa put him outside which limmitted his ability to control the game - something Masch cannot do because he simply isn't smart enough.

    4. Alonso is not wasted as a deep player because that is his position. That's what he did for us at LFC and what he's done at Real. He is known for the great long passes (and occassional looooooong shot) and for his discipline and calming influence in the back. That's what he does. It's his modus operandi (sp?).

    5. We'll have to agree to disagree about the signing because I think we shouldn't have spent the money on another midfielder when we had other more pressing needs.

    6. What I meant about Lucas is that we needed another player to play in one of the two defensive midfielder positions. I don't think anyone expected him to step right in and play as much as he did so early after signing. If anything he was the catalyst to take the Gerrard position and move Stevie outside - That happened so it isn't just a presumption. In the first article below (#7) it talks about Aquilani. But 'Bert was never a "deep sitting midfielder" but an attacking one just like Gerrard and you say Lucas. So why would we need an attacking mid if Lucas was meant to play there? I know he (Lucas) was toughted as that in Brazil, but I think people who knew his skillset knew he was not fast enough, didn;t have the killshot, nor had a good enough touch for the attacking role at the top level. His skills have always been in his work ethic, mental abilities, vision, and positional discipline. In other words, in "controlling the game" - just like Xabi.

    7. Shmource. But since this thread has gone on for a while and you are engaged I'll go look it up right now... http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/st...ngland&cc=5901
    http://www.metro.co.uk/sport/800029-...es-alonso-exit

    see para. 6: "Gerrard knew it would take Liverpool time to adapt to life without Alonso, who in a deep-lying playmaker role had a vital duty in Benitez's team." - see point #4 above



    But I'll also point out the quote from Xabi himself in that article that says he made up his mind to leave once Rafa targetted garreth barry - who is also a "deep sitting midfielder".

    8. We were already regarded as one of the best midfields in Europe prior to the Masch signing. I disagreed at the time and after time still think that way.

    Again good posts.
    Last edited by tweepie; 28-10-12 at 16:35. Reason: That site does not have much credibility on here.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  30. #30  
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    11,656
    2. Alonso and Gerrard weren't "leaking a lot of goals" before Mascherano was signed so why would they have suddenly started? They had a wonderful understanding in the center and it was seldom that Alonso was stuck on an island.
    Before Mascherano came, Gerrard wasn't playing as the defensive midfielder. Sissoko was. If we where to play Alonso and Gerrard as defensive midfielders (which we didn't), then we would have leaked goals.

    3. Rafa wanted to play 2 defensive style midfielders. Gerrard is a nearly unique talent who knows how to play from the back and when to run and has the ability to pull the team forward on long runs and deep passes. But he didn't quite fit what Rafa wanted because he IS better playing more advanced. So Rafa put him outside which limmitted his ability to control the game - something Masch cannot do because he simply isn't smart enough.
    Isn't smart enough? That isn't his role within a team. With the Mascherano - Alonso partnership, it was Mascherano's job to do the dirty stuff, Alonso's to do the tidy stuff. Alonso was the dictator of play, Mascherano the breaker of play. It isn't because he wasn't smart enough. Mascherano became famous in South America for his ability to play the "bulldog" role.

    4. Alonso is not wasted as a deep player because that is his position. That's what he did for us at LFC and what he's done at Real. He is known for the great long passes (and occassional looooooong shot) and for his discipline and calming influence in the back. That's what he does. It's his modus operandi (sp?).
    I never said he was being wasted as a deep player, I said he would be wasted as the main defensive midfielder, as he is better suited staying on his feet, and thread great passes. For Alonso to play at his best, he requires someone who will do all the dirty work. It doesn't mean he isn't a defensive midfielder either, it just means that he isn't the "dirty" defensive midfielder. If he was to be the only defensive midfielder, then he would have to do more dirty work, where he would waste his playmaking abilities.

    5. We'll have to agree to disagree about the signing because I think we shouldn't have spent the money on another midfielder when we had other more pressing needs.
    We actually loaned Mascherano for an initial 18 months, before buying him. So we didn't spend all the money instantly, but when he was borderline worldclass.

    6. What I meant about Lucas is that we needed another player to play in one of the two defensive midfielder positions. I don't think anyone expected him to step right in and play as much as he did so early after signing. If anything he was the catalyst to take the Gerrard position and move Stevie outside - That happened so it isn't just a presumption. In the first article below (#7) it talks about Aquilani. But 'Bert was never a "deep sitting midfielder" but an attacking one just like Gerrard and you say Lucas. So why would we need an attacking mid if Lucas was meant to play there? I know he (Lucas) was toughted as that in Brazil, but I think people who knew his skillset knew he was not fast enough, didn;t have the killshot, nor had a good enough touch for the attacking role at the top level. His skills have always been in his work ethic, mental abilities, vision, and positional discipline. In other words, in "controlling the game" - just like Xabi.
    When we bought Lucas, Rafa Benitez said that he was an attacking midfielder who could score goals.
    see para. 6: "Gerrard knew it would take Liverpool time to adapt to life without Alonso, who in a deep-lying playmaker role had a vital duty in Benitez's team." - see point #4 above
    You weren't talking about getting rid of Alonso. You said:
    agree Rafa was right in that he saw an opportunity to get a great player and Masch did well for a while. But I don't think we needed him in the first place. Even Stevie himself said it was a mistake to break up that central pairing.
    Again, do you have a source prooving that Stevie said it was a mistake to break up the partnership of him and Alonso?
    8. We were already regarded as one of the best midfields in Europe prior to the Masch signing. I disagreed at the time and after time still think that way.
    So you don't think Mascherano improved us? If he didn't, then why where the fans singing this song:
    We've got the best midfield in the world!
    We've got Xabi Alonso
    Momo Sissoko
    Gerrard and Mascherano-o-o
    Oooo-o-o
    We've got the best midfield in the world (2x)
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   



Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •