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Thread: All Info on Parliamentary Debate Dates/Media Programmes - NEW - Verdict to be announced 11am 26th April

  1. #61  
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    12:33 pm


    Dan Kay: Mansfield now asking for 4 day rather than 5 day option for inquests. Nature of proceedings will be emotionally charged inevitably but also because of jurors who may be sitting for as long as six months. If jurors know they have a spa day each, they can organise their lives better eg doctors appointments, work commitments etc.

    MM - panelling of jury should start early in the new year so as to forestall any potential problems later on eg summer holidays. US system of alternate jurors should be considered so they can step in should there be any problems further down the line





    12:33 pm


    Steve Graves: Michael Mansfield making case that sitting for four days rather than five might actually help things run more smoothly. He's pointed out the impact the proceedings will have on the lives of jurors





    12:38 pm


    Dan Kay: Pete Weatherby QC for the HJC up now - stresses the importance of a collaborative approach. Tight timescale means much of this work has needed to be done at a far greater pace than would normally be expected.

    There will be a considerable amount of newly considered and generated material and the team working on this material will need even more people adding to it than is already being planned





    12:41 pm


    Dan Kay: PW - Op Resolve and IPCC need to set out clearly & succinctly what martial they have to hand so everyone knows the kind of timetable they are working towards. We know IPCC are currently interviewing officers involved in the amending of statements, the 12,000 questionnaires, the newly discovered pocket notebooks but it would be of help to know where they are up to





    12:46 pm


    Steve Graves: The format of the hearing is for each interested party to go back over the same points set out on the agenda. So now we're hearing again about disclosure from Pete Weatherby.

    South Yorkshire Police, IPCC, Operation Resolve, Sheffield Wednesday and others will also have the chance to speak throughout the day, looking at the points framed by Ms Lambert in her opening submissions





    12:48 pm


    Steve Graves: Pete Weatherby QC says an internationally-renowned expert has indicated police handheld video footage from the day may have been edited




    Now that would be a shock.....wouldn't it....
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    12:52 pm


    Dan Kay: PW (cont) A family member brought in a DVD of footage which was considerably better than the footage served upon us and consequently we felt an error was made in the identification of one of the deceased which brought this issue into sharp footage.

    Op Resolve themselves don't know provenance of some footage - we ask that an expert be given access to all footage to ascertain which is best version that can then be disseminated to all parties






    12:53 pm


    Dan Kay: Weatherby also asks for consideration for expert evidence to be provided on blood toxicology and crowd dynamics to address issues raised by previous inquests





    12:56 pm


    Dan Kay: Challenge panel - the families obviously are hugely concerned with various things that have gone on since Hillsborough happened. DPP have been concerned over effect challenge panel could have on efficiency of inquests.

    Goldring interjects it is crucial that investigations I have asked to be carried out are able to go on without being impeded. It will not be possible to split things up all the time, Weatherby agrees there will be a fair degree of overlap





    1:02 pm


    Dan Kay: Weatherby says CP would be able to look at pace of investigations, what IPCC and police are doing.

    Goldring says if I say to Op Resolve I am anxious and determined that we start on March 31st and this is what you need to be doing to ensure this happens, am I to understand that the CP could counteract that?

    Weatherby says that is not intended to be the case and LJG 's independence and autonomy over the process will not and should not be compromised





    1:04 pm


    Steve Graves: Some interesting discussion between Mr Weatherby and the coroner here. The concern for everyone is that the challenge panel which would oversee the investigations should not compromise the coroner's independence.

    That is likely to be difficult to achieve given the investigators are working on his behalf. Mr Weatherby says the panel would not be able to intervene in whether work ordered by the coroner is conducted, but could ask for it to go further if they feel the right questions have not been asked for the criminal process they must consider.

    The families are troubled that there seems to be no other way though to ensure that the overlap between the two processes is managed as carefully as possible





    1:05 pm


    Hearing will now pause for lunch




    1:07 pm


    The hearing is now breaking for lunch. The main points so far have been the possible editing of police handheld footage, concerns over how quickly documents are going to be disclosed and the coroner's vow that the full inquests will start by March 31
    Last edited by NACNUD; 7-10-13 at 13:15.
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  3. #63  
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    2:07 pm


    Dan Kay: Heather Williams QC who represents two of the families - agrees with Mansfield and Weatherby on previous submissions.

    RE irrelevant material - if it has already been deemed so and extra sentence of or two as to why would save everyone some time and stop people going over old ground





    2:14 pm


    Dan Kay: On expert witnesses and submissions on prevailing standards of the day, it is unrealistic to expect these experts to comment of disputed areas of fact.

    Goldring disagrees, saying if he says 'if x or y happened, that would have fallen in line or beneath standards of day' that is perfectly acceptable as he is commenting on a hypothesis. Audible voices of agreement from families in the courtroom





    2:18 pm


    Steve Graves: Heather Williams is raising the resources available to Operation Resolve. At the last hearing solicitors for the investigation said they had struggled to get resources signed off by the Home Office, but recently the head of the operations, Jon Stoddart, said that had been dealt with.

    Ms Williams is suggesting still more support may be needed if the team has more demands placed on it





    2:22 pm


    Dan Kay: Andrew O'Connor QC who represents the IPCC speaking now.

    Response to missing documents query raised by Mansfield - we are working closely with IPCC and coronial team in sharing work and prioritising key elements. We are alive to issue Mansfield raises but hope that it will not occur





    2:23 pm


    Dan Kay: O'Connor - RE sensitive documents which are subject of ongoing investigation, we seek that they should be held back (from public disclosure) for some time and there seems to be common agreement on this





    2:24 pm


    Dan Kay: Inevitably as time passes a tension will develop between the need to disclose information for the inquests and the importance of maintaining the integrity of the investigation. Goldring says that this is something he may have to rule on, which is agreed





    2:31 pm


    Dan Kay: Updating on progress of IPCC investigation as promised for this hearing. HIP identified 164 doctored, since then a further 74. Inquiries made about all 238 (220 of them still alive).

    132 have been invited to give interviews, 58 have already done so. We hoped these would all have been done by February - a lot of interviews are going on longer than expected, which makes drawing up of statements harder.

    Goldring responds that's a pretty late date bearing in mind how many have to be done and says he may need to look at that again






    2:32 pm


    Dan Kay: O'Connor says both IPCC & Op Resolve are working on this interviews and they're going as quick as we can. Statements will be disclosed to coroners and relevant parties as soon as they're done.

    Witness appeal is underway for those that gave evidence to West Mids and also those that never gave evidence before. Most recent number of responses is 1069 - majority from Liverpool supporters in West stand and Leppings Lane.

    About 700 have been processed so far, Goldring presses on how many are likely to involve further investigation from IPCC. O'Connor unable to provide number but says it has been worthwhile exercise so far





    2:36 pm


    Dan Kay: IPCC position of Challenge Panel. Have already supported benefit to their investigation of some kind of external scrutiny.

    Difficulty is a practical one because investigations are being conducted alongside Inquests and inappropriateness of CP looking at work we're doing for you
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    2:39 pm


    Dan Kay: Sam Leek QC FOR op resolve.

    Audio visual material - huge amount of work currently being carried out to establish issue of provenance. This is very difficult team and it would help if inquest tran appointed an expert to assist with this.

    What Mike Mansfield urged RE halo effect and arrows to identify cases with A/V database is being carried out. Goldring makes the point, as he has on several occasions today, that these are issues that concerned parties here should be able to discuss and sort out themselves





    2:40 pm


    Steve Graves: Operation Resolve backing the families' solicitors calls for an audio visual expert. As they say, tracking the exact origins of footage is very difficult. Earlier the hearing was told about software which allows for different versions of the same events to be compared in detail





    2:41 pm


    Dan Kay: Richard Whittam QC for CPS - All families are concerned as to the impartiality of investigations - I can assure them that there is a dedicated team already appointed who are ready to bring prosecutions should they be required and lawful.

    We are not just sitting and waiting for evidence - should there be sufficient evidence to bring a prosecution there may be a series of challenges along the way but nothing should be done that could be a bar to a future prosecution





    2:44 pm


    Dan Kay: There have already been strategy meetings between CPS, IPCC & Op Resolve and will we give any possible assistance to the inquest process that we can





    2:45 pm


    Steve Graves: Crown prosecution service has two lawyers and two support staff already dedicated to Hillsborough, hearing is told





    2:49 pm


    Steve Graves: We're hearing more about the challenge panel - or the article 2 reference group as it is formally known. Mr Whittam says its terms of reference are clear and that the CPS welcomes transparency. The concern for everyone is to ensure the independence of the inquests is not threatened





    2:51 pm


    Dan Kay: Fiona Barton QC for South Yorkshire Police speaking now.

    Disclosure - in order to temper expectation over new evidence from SYP. Media reports of finding of police notebooks - this refers to all of them before 1992, as they want intro from all over semi finals there.

    Although 90 books have been found, there has been no relevance analysis done and do not expect there to be boxfuls of new information.

    Expert witnesses - they want consideration of crowd movement experts to be brought in, which is something Pete Weatherby also made reference to




    Jonathan Corke @JonathanCorke

    Whether "boxfuls" or not Q remains as to why #Hillsborough material was not given to independent panel







    2:57 pm


    Dan Kay: Goldring answers a point regarding a technical point re requests from interested parties on pathology reports from Jenni Richards QC for Yorkshire Ambulance Service by saying that this was a matter that could easily have been ironed out by the briefs themselves without his assistance





    3:03 pm


    From Dan: The Coroner seems to be in no mood to brook any kind of delaying tactics from anyone 'trying it on' which will be of some comfort to families concerned that the inquests should get underway next year as planned.






    3.04pm


    Jason Beer, QC for Sheffield Wednesday FC is speaking now - says on top of the initial 20 boxes of evidence disclosed to the IPCC and inquest team, a further four disclosed today





    3.09pm


    Lord Goldring inviting applications for interested party status now for DEputy Chief Constable Hayes and ASsistant Chief Constable Anderson


    They were part of 'Gold Command' Responsible for legal implications SYP might face as consequence of Hillsborough and mentions the 'alleged' cover up and doctoring of statements, to sounds of annoyed incredulity from families in the court.





    3.09pm


    More from Dan Kay in the courtroom:

    These are two officers with whom 'the buck will stop', they will be subject to close cross-examination. SYP do not feel in a position to represent them and that is why they want to be given Interested Party status.


    Terry Wain was appointed to collate officers notes from the day and produced the Wain Report. Him and Donald Denton


    Officers are now in their 70s and are adamant that there was no cover-up. Families cry out in court, 'what about the families who are in their 70s
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  5. #65  
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    Gavin Callaghan @gavin_callaghan

    #Hillsborough top of the news on Sky News. More police statements altered. Now 238 confirmed. The cover up is deeper than ever believed.




    Steve Graves @steve_graves

    Lawyer for Terry Wain and Donald Denton, who collected and collated police evidence after Hillsborough, arguing they should be represented.






    3.18pm


    QCs for the families of the Hillsborough victims now giving their side re the interested party applications concerning Wain and Denton - general consensus is they do not fall into the appropriate category in light of the sensitive information they would be privy too, says Dan Kay




    PassionForSports @SpatestonBear

    The more you read about Hillsborough the worse it gets, how far did some go to hide the truth? Amazing it's taken so long to get the truth.






    3.28pm


    More from Dan Kay:


    Final suggestions from Ms Lambert for issues Goldring may look to implement, she adds that he should necessarily have to make a ruling here and now on them at which point Goldring chimes in and says 'Are you subtly telling me to have a think about it?' To warm laughter in the court.


    The main issue here is regarding the for December 13 deadline for for interested party status and Goldring confirms he will consider things and release his decision in the normal way when he's ready.





    3:36 pm


    Dan Kay: Final suggestions from Ms Lambert for issues Goldring may look to implement, she adds that he should necessarily have to make a ruling here and now on them at which point Goldring chimes in and says 'Are you subtly telling me to have a think about it?' To warm laughter in the court.

    The main issue here is regarding the for December 13 deadline for for interested party status and Goldring confirms he will consider things and release his decision in the normal way when he's ready





    3:37 pm


    Dan Kay: Goldring summing up...

    Sympathetic for need for as early disclosure as possible

    Will look at IPCC Op Resolve timetables and may give order about that shortly

    Anticipate making order regarding expert enhancement and analysis of audio visual footage - precise form needs to be discussed amongst counsel

    Disclosure of overview pathology report - family should have 7 days as was argued for

    Appointing jury 3 months before hearing could pose problems but will keep an open mind on it, as he will with a potential 'shadow jury'

    Won't make ruling on how many days inquest will set for until clearer idea of time tabling and other issues

    Interested Party status granted those SYP officers who requested them but they will have limited access and will be closely monitored

    Challenge Panel - not appropriate for me formally to make a ruling. What I can do is make sure investigations carried out at my behest are carried out independently





    3:40 pm


    More from Lord Justice Goldring's summing up: Whatever probs there have been in the past it seems thatResolve & IPCC are now making real contribution. Much of it as at our request. There is a. Very demanding timetAble.


    There may be a degree of micro management that needs to be done but I am absolutely determined to ensure the inquests take place when I promised they would on March 31st next year. Audible shouts of 'thank you' from various families in the court as Goldring concludes proceedings, adding that if there is any need for a further hearing he will not hesitate to call one and will inform everyone ahead of time.





    3.42


    The hearing is over now, with another date set for December - we'll be bringing you all the reaction
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  6. #66  
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    Radio Merseyside. On Tuesdays Roger Phillips show at 11-30 he will be interviewing John Stoddard.
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  7. #67  
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    Quote Originally Posted by NACNUD View Post
    Radio Merseyside. On Tuesdays Roger Phillips show at 11-30 he will be interviewing John Stoddard.

    In case you missed this you can listen here......actually starts at the beginning of the programme.


    I live out of the UK and can listen so should be available for all.....


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01hk4gv
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  8. #68  
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    As you are probably aware the last pre-hearing was supposed to have been the final one but for some reason there will be another one at it would seem it will be Monday 16th. December.....



    Yep up on the website now......



    Next preliminary hearing

    The next preliminary hearing will take place at 10.30am on Monday 16th December at the Thistle Marble Arch Hotel, Bryanston Street, London, W1H 7EH.

    http://hillsboroughinquests.independent.gov.uk/
    Last edited by NACNUD; 10-12-13 at 19:50. Reason: link added
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  9. #69  
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    http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/...sports-6405203


    The BBC Sports Personality of the Year awards will be shown live on BBC1 from 7.40pm on Sunday night.
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  10. #70  
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    Good luck to the families traveling down to London for the pre inquest hearing tomorrow.......JFT.96.
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  11. #71  
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    Morning.....

    In case you missed it last night or live out of the UK , here is a link to the award honouring Anne Williams last night......



    http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/sports-personality/25392994


    A true inspiration to us all......
    Just a normal Mum from Formby Liverpool took on the whole establishment and judicial system in England and won !!!!!! Without her tireless fight for learning the Truth about how Kevin died at Hillsborough the campaign for Justice would not be where it is today.....God bless Anne...Rest in Peace and we carry on the fight in your name and that of the other families and survivors.....Danny's words are so true 'loved and so very missed by so many......YNWA...Justice for all.......
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  12. #72  
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    You can follow live updates from the 4th pre inquest hearing today in this link....I will be putting updates in here through out the day......


    http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/...monday-6407920
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    10.10am


    This from Sean in London:



    Just had a quick word with Hillsborough campaigner Steve Wright about what he expects from the hearing.


    He said the coroner Lord Justice Goldring has been "adamant" on the scheduled inquests start date of 31st March next year, but fears there will be representations for that to be put back today.


    He added: "The location isn't ideal. I think that will be brought up. There's nothing there - it's an empty office block


    "And it's always interesting to see what the police come up with. We'll just take today as it comes."





    10.13am


    According to solicitors for some of the victim's families, there are concerns about the venue for the inquests, not enough toilet facilities, meeting rooms and so forth. Expect discussion about that today
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    10.48am


    More from Sean, it appears more evidence is needed:

    Time of death and individuals’ survival following release of compression on the chest are “very important” as to assessment of whether people may have had chance of survival with earlier treatment says Ms Lambert.


    Ms Lambert says pathologists have not been supplied with all of the material they will be given


    10.45am



    More from Sean Bradbury:



    Next expert Ms Lambert will speak about is David Whitmore, currently engaged as a paramedic with London Ambulance Service.


    His document considers major implement planning by ambulance service, response on the day of the disaster, response co-ordination in the control room and more.


    He also sets out “standards of care” he considers were of application in 1989.


    LJ Goldring asks about Mr Whitmore’s report - “is this the first there has been on this topic?”


    Ms Lambert says yes, as far as she is aware.


    Ms Lambert moves on to issue of pathology evidence.


    Report put together by two professors and a doctor.





    10.29am


    Ms Lambert discussing the report, here's what Sean Bradbury has filed directly from the courtroom:



    It includes a detailed analysis of turnstiles, their number and arrangement when judged by reference to capacity of pens, signage available in inner concourse.


    Detailed analysis of tunnel - including gradient. Layout of pens including crush barriers. And the capacity of pens three and four.


    Mr Cutlack identifies a feature he believes has not been previously considered at all - the suitability of the viewing terrace. Ms Lambert: “To a layperson, perhaps conveniently described as sightlines.”





    10.29am


    From Sean:

    Ms Lambert: “Expert evidence in the form of written reports has been obtained...in three areas.”


    Ms Lambert: “I’m going to start with the first broad topic of inquiry which we identified in June of 2013. That topic is stadium safety.”


    “This topic has now been addressed very extensively by Mr John Cutlack, a structural engineer.”


    “Stadium safety certification and safety inspections, and his review of the HSE investigations, will be dealt with by two separate reports.”


    Mr Cutlack’s report is more than 140 pages long, says Ms Lambert.



    10.29am



    Christina Lambert QC, lead counsel to the inquests, on her feet now summarising written submissions, starting with the issue of expert evidence.


    10.29am


    This hearing is on a live feed to a Liverpool courtroom, where those unable to travel to the capital can watch proceedings as they happen





    Please read this and all my following posts from bottom to top......
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    11.10am


    Mrs Lambert says jury will benefit from visit to stadium:

    Key areas to view - approach to turnstiles, the inner concourse, tunnel, upper level of West Stand, police control box, access to pitch, area of what was the former gym and first aid room, rear of the South Stand.





    11.07am


    John Sutton in Liverpool writes: The toxicology issue, particularly in testing minors for alcohol consumption, has been hugely controversial, and was thought by many as a tactic used to try and blame fans for the disaster.





    11.03am


    On toxicology - Ms Lambert says present view is level of blood alcohol in each of the deceased not relevant to either cause of disaster or individual causes of death.


    Ms Lambert on to jury selection now.


    Wants to adopt "cautious approach" to inclusion on jury of any person who has a connection to the police.


    Says a serving or former officer likely to have association with Police Federation.




    11.03am


    Expert witness evidence is going to be vital to how the inquests progress, and in getting a definitive account of how the actions of certain organisations impacted on the survival chances of the 96 victims in April 1989




    11.00am



    Ms Lambert: "As matters currently stand, we do not intend to instruct experts from other disciplines."


    Had given "serious consideration" to instruct an expert in crowd dynamics, but do not think the jury's understanding will necessarily be improved by an expert in that area.

    Report by expert in policing Doug Hopkins to be disclosed in early February


    LJ Goldring: "It would be helpful at the end of all this that we have a list of various dates set out" for expert reports





    10.58am


    From Sean Bradbury



    Timing of disclosure of reports - Ms Lambert says we are "very, very conscious" families will want to receive reports asap.


    It is hoped first reports will be available early in the new year.


    Ms Lambert: "I don't wish at this stage to give a date."


    All of the four core pathologists are working over the holiday, looking at an initial six reports each.



    10.56am


    From Sean Bradbury in London:

    Ms Lambert: “The template for the reports has recently been finalised. A proposed template for reporting is currently somewhere in the ether, being circulated among the team.”



    10.53am


    Ms Lambert says two expert doctors from Bath and Bristol have been recruited to look at "had an individual received earlier or different care....whether they believe there was a chance of survival."


    They are "dealing with the very important topic of survival."


    Ms Lambert says work of preparing individual reports will be divided between four people in core pathology team.


    Ms Lambert: "The team have been reminded of the need for absolute accuracy."



    10.51am



    Pathologists are currently preparing 96 reports to present to the new inquests, Christina Lambert tells the hearing
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    Sorry for interruption but couldn't get on here for some reason....anyway....








    11.34am


    John Sutton in Liverpool: The court venues must be fit for purpose, and provide an environment for victims families to discuss verdicts and progress of cases.



    11.27am


    This from Sean, they are talking about the venues:

    Ms Lambert moves on to issue of the venue.


    "I will say only this" - all interested persons now aware there is a building on which a lease has been signed near Warrington.


    Now in the process of being "fitted out" for the inquest.


    Where possible the requests of all interested persons will be accommodated.


    Additional seating will be provided, but whether additional space for purposes of conference facilities etc is a matter being taken up and dealt with elsewhere. Ms Lambert: "Not in our ability at this stage to say yea or nay."


    LJ Goldring - I'll hear what is being said about this shortly, if it seems to me appropriate for these facilities, I will make it plain that there ought to be.




    Ms Lambert finishes opening submissions.







    11.27am


    From John Sutton in Liverpool:

    Evidence that has been potentially lost has caused huge distress to families of the Hillsborough victims, particularly television footage that will help piece together what happened that afternoon.

    This will be a welcome announcement



    11.27am



    From Sean:

    BBC footage has now been disclosed in an "uncompressed" format says Ms Lambert.


    "Forensic" examination taking place of police hand-held cameras.


    3,000 images from still photographs which are being digitised and disclosed in a useful form.


    Ms Lambert: "A very large amount of AV material" will be produced in the new year - material that is of "critical significance"



    11.19am


    A lot of documents have to be gone through - this from Sean Bradbury:



    Ms Lambert says new material being thrown up by IPCC, Operation Resolve and individual disclosures, in addition to Independent Panel material.


    To date, 68,000 pages of material including 160 witness statements have been disclosed. These numbers will "increase significantly" says Ms Lambert.


    There has been "no hold up" so far in terms of being able to review and process new material.


    83% of Independent Panel documents have now been reviewed, redacted or discarded as not relevant to inquest process.





    11.19am


    More from Sean:

    It had been intended, she adds, that a pathologist should be called on 96 occasions to express a view on cause of death and survival.


    But, she says, what has been suggested is that would deprive pathologists of taking into account evidence which may be relevant which emerges from the cases of other individuals.


    She says pathologists should "not be deprived" of useful evidence which may emerge in this way.






    11.64am


    From Sean in London:

    Format and structure of inquests being dealt with now.


    Ms Lambert - common ground that first there should be an opening, then evidence by way of biography concerning each individual deceased.


    So as to "put the individuals very much at the centre of the inquests."


    Then the jury visit, then first topic proposed to be stadium safety introduced by Mr Cutlack to give uncontentious history of stadium and its modelled - followed by factual evidence on this and Mr Cutlack's views.


    Then move on to preparation planning and the events of the day, then experts on pre-hospital emergency care and policing.






    11.14am


    From John Sutton in Liverpool: Those who serve on the jury will have to take many months out of their lives for this important public duty.



    11.13am


    From Sean:

    Moves on to issue of alternate or shadow jurors.


    Ms Lambert: "There is a real practical utility in the retention of a small group" as a reserve pool in event of excusals being made following the opening of the inquests.



    11.11am


    From Sean in London:


    LJ Goldring - jury will be provided with considerable assistance so they can see exactly how it was in 1989.
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    11.54am


    And final word from Mr Mansfield:



    Mr Mansfield - "final postscript" - is on four day week issue for hearing the inquests.


    Mr Mansfield calls for four days a week to begin with, and if not seen to be satisfactory go up to four and 1/2 or even five.


    Asking for this not be benefit of lawyers but for "benefit of the families".


    For those who don't live in North West, ability to go back would help he says.





    11.54am


    More from Sean:

    Mr Mansfield moves on to the site visit.


    Says within ground there is a "segment" of the original terracing which bares upon the sightlines point and would need to be specified.


    On questionnaire (re: police connections of jurors) says he would "endorse" this.


    If people answer 'Yes' to police connections, and individual is still intended to be included, Mr Mansfield wants to be told the "gist" of that particular individual's "predicament".


    LJ Goldring says this process will be transparent.



    11.52am


    John Sutton in Liverpool: Effectively, what Mr Mansfield is asking for here is spare jurors. If, for some reason, a juror has to drop out of the inquests part-way through, then a new jury would have to be sought and the whole process started again.

    This is a way to try and get round that very costly process.



    11.48am


    More from Sean on this:




    Mr Mansfield: "As far as we can see, there isn't a lawful prohibition."



    Mr Mansfield calls on anyone who would object to do so today - "now is the moment."







    11.48am




    Mr Mansfield saying the process of "alternates", having been empanelled but now sworn, works in America.


    They see and hear everything the jury sees BUT don't discuss with the primary jury as it goes along, and instructed not to discuss with anyone else (including each other).


    Mr Mansfield: "We do this regularly with juries, we trust juries" on the point - "do not discuss it with anyone else."


    "We also trust jurors not to surf the web. We trust jurors in many different respects."


    Mr Mansfield - it may seem to incur extra expense and trouble (to have alternate/shadow jurors) but the savings could be "enormous."


    LJ Goldring concerned about how lawful this process may be.





    11.45am


    From Sean in London:

    Mr Mansfield submits that at the opening of the inquests, two extra jurors should sit in as backup.



    11.43am








    11.40am





    Mr Mansfield making the case that reserve jurors could save time and money in long run.


    Mr Mansfield: "What is happening in a number of criminal trials now...is that a number of jurors are not sworn but empanelled, sitting to one side."



    11.38am








    11.36am


    This from Sean - Mr Mansfield is to speak on two topics:

    To speak on two topics - juries and broadcasting/transmission of inquest proceedings themselves.


    Jury first. Site visit, questionnaire and alternate/shadow jurors.


    On shadow jurors - Mr Mansfield says a "unique and unusual" thing.



    11.34am


    Michael Mansfield QC is now getting to his feet - he speaks for 74 of the families
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    12.10pm


    Mr Patrick Roche now addressing format and structure of inquests, representing 74 families.

    Mr Roche: "We welcome the suggestion or the assumption...that you should not sit in the week of the 14th of April."



    12.07pm


    Mr Simblet on toxicology. "We agree largely with the approach" proposed.


    But one caveat - he says "people should say today why an expert on toxicology should have any relevance to proceedings" given earlier statement on lack of relevance from Ms Lambert.


    LJ Goldring: "We're all working under quite a lot of pressure and quite a lot of speed" as we want these inquests to start in March.






    12.04pm


    From Sean in London:

    Stephen Simblet, representing 74 Hillsborough families, speaking now on nature of expert evidence.



    12.00 midday


    John Sutton in Liverpool: Televising of court proceedings is a relatively new development in the UK's notoriously conservative legal system. It would be a seismic shift were the television cameras to come in on these proceedings



    11.58am


    Could we get the Hillsborough inquests on TV?

    Transmission of inquests - "We understand there is going to be a live feed into a courtroom in Liverpool" and possibly another elsewhere.


    Calls also for online feed - and raises idea of televising proceedings (LJ Golding - "that would require a change to the statutory instrument").


    Mr Mansfield - "could that be considered for this?"
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    12.21pm


    Mr Roche says he shares concerns about transport and other facilities.

    Specific factor he wants to raise "relates to conference facilities" - LJ Goldring reaffirms that he will be hearing more on this elsewhere and will express his view.

    Mr Roche says he has been told one room with 50 seats will be provided - says this could prove unworkable.

    Mr Roche: "It simply won't be possible to hold proper conferences with clients in one room with 50 seats."

    Calls for space to be secured nearby to facilitate conferences.



    12.20pm




    "I anticipate I will be quite strict about the question of timing" - "we have to be disciplined in our approach to this."

    Says it is important so that people who want to go to inquests know what will be happening at particular times.




    12.20pm




    Mr Roche on inquests structure now.



    Says it is helpful to "have a provisional route map" - but wonders if estimates for individual factual evidence and individual pathological evidence (amounts to something like 60 days) is on the low side



    LJ Goldring: "Plainly it is too early to fix any specific timings. But I anticipate there will come a point, with co-operation for everybody" where he will set time limits for each witness.



    "It seems important from everybody's point of view that we have an absolutely clear" schedule.
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    12.45pm


    LJ Goldring: "One obviously wants the best quality that is available."

    Mr Weatherby says there remain issues over two tapes from a series of four, from police hand-held cameras.

    He says - the two concerned are 20 minutes each in length. One has an unexplained 10-minute gap in the middle. The second is a "compilation" which contains footage from the first tape.

    Groans from the Hillsborough families present as Mr Weatherby speaks on this.

    Mr Weatherby says there may be integrity issues and asks is an expert can be allowed to copy tapes and examine them.




    12.45pm


    Mr Weatherby seeks disclosure of names of 240 police officers whose statements - "we are told" - were amended.

    Mr Weatherby says there is concern about quality of original Sheffield Wednesday CCTV tapes.

    Mr Weatherby: "In essence what we're saying is that some of these may be multi-generational copies."

    May be misidentification etc - a quality issue, he reaffirms.





    12.36pm


    Mr Weatherby says with respect to disclosure issues, we noted in writing significant concerns about the pace of the investigations - primarily because we identified we had only had 81 new statements (from IPCC/Operation Resolve) disclosed to us.

    Says Operation Resolve has provided a further update, sent through of Friday and "that has certainly assisted us."



    12.31pm


    Mr Pete Weatherby QC speaking now, representing 22 Hillsborough families.

    Mr Weatherby - we support assertions this morning that alcohol levels not relevant going forward.

    But says this "may not be something" some of the witnesses understand.

    Mr Weatherby: "The only objective evidence of alcohol comes from toxicology."

    LJ Goldring asks - if there are witnesses who speak about people having drunk too much, you want the toxicology to rebut that assertion?

    Mr Weatherby: "Essentially. Without it, the jury may be considerably misled."



    12.31pm




    Mr Williams asks for disclosure of names.


    Mr Williams mentions "next pre-inquest review" - no interjection from LJ Goldring on that yet but presumably means there will be another.






    12.31pm


    Mr Chris Williams represents 11 of the 74 families, but for today's purposes dealing with overall administrative matters.

    Two contentious issues he says are "provision of transcripts" from Operation Resolve/IPCC interviews, and disclosure of identities of police officers who have refused to co-operate for investigations.

    Mr Williams - anxious not to waste time and meet the start date. Says transcripts now would allow for much more efficient preparation.

    LJ Goldring: "I understand the submission exactly."

    Mr Williams on refusal of police officers to co-operate with inquiries. There "appear to be 19" former or serving officers refusing, and they are not citing medical incapacity issues.
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    12.57pm


    Hillsborough hearing pauses for an hour, due to resume at 2pm.



    12.55pm


    Mr Weatherby supports Mr Mansfield's submissions of live broadcasting for the Hillsborough inquests.

    LJ Goldring says there would be "problems" with that.

    Mr Mark George QC speaking now, also on behalf of 22 families.

    Would be comforted if something "pointing in favour" of shadow/alternate jurors could be said.

    On questionnaire that will be sent to potential jurors and include reference to police links - "we do submit that if a juror is or has been a police officer in any police force in England or Wales they should be excluded" from this jury.



    12.50pm


    270 seats in Warrington for inquests - Mr Weatherby says "we are concerned that will simply not be enough"

    Few chuckles as LJ Goldring says he will not be discussing the number of toilets available in Warrington at this hearing today...
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    14.03pm



    Afternoon session is now underway, writes Sean Bradbury in London



    14.00pm


    We will be starting again very shortly by the way



    14.00pm


    More lunchtime reaction, this time from Hillsborough campaigner Barry Devonside who expressed concerns about the size of the venue for the fresh inquests in Warrington.

    He said this morning's session took things "slowly in the right direction" - but added: "There are issues which we have just spoken about which should have been done and dusted a long time ago."

    Barry said: "Overall it was ok [this morning]. The big issue has got to be addressed and that's the size of the venue that has been selected."

    He added: "I can't believe that any family would want to go Warrington to watch it in the side room."

    Mr Devonside was present for every day of the now quashed original inquests following the 1989 disaster, and said: "To think - I might be kept out of the main room."



    13.11pm


    Our reporter Eleanor has just spoken to Margaret Aspinall to get her reaction from the morning session of the hearing.

    Margaret said: “At the moment everything’s going pretty well. Our lawyers have put good representations forward on behalf of the families.

    “Mr Golding, the coroner, is obviously listening.”

    Asked about the issue of the two police tapes and the missing minutes she said: “Where is the 10 minutes? Why is it not there? Don’t make it a jigsaw - give us the whole lot.”
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    14.19pm


    From Sean in London



    Ms Sam Leek speaking now, on behalf of Operation Resolve (OR).


    Speaking on police and Sheffield Wednesday tapes - "no objection in principle" that expert record on to his computer from original tapes to assess them.


    But says there are concerns about fragility of the original and threat of breakage. Says they are practical issues best dealt with between OR and lawyers for the 22 families.


    LJ Goldring: "I can see that Mr Weatherby is shaking his head in agreement."


    Mr Weatherby from the seats: "Nodding."


    All agreed on that then.






    14.15pm


    Mr Mumyard signs off with: "I've certainly nothing to say about toilets today."



    14.15pm


    Mr Munyard:

    Says families are particularly concerned that the inquest should start off and flow properly.


    Calls for a later start - after 25th anniversary of Hillsborough disaster next April and after Easter - to help with this.



    14.11pm


    Sterling work from Sean Bradbury today.

    Terry Munyard is on his feet now, speaking on behalf of two Hillsborough families



    14.07pm


    Ms Williams on the question on venue, makes point that saving money at this stage on certain features (eg shuttle buses/toilets) may turn out to be "an entirely false economy" if "sitting time is lost."


    LJ Goldring: "I don't anticipate I shall be making a ruling on toilets - or even shuttle buses. But I understand the serious point underlying it."



    14.07pm



    Ms Williams speaking on juries now, and begins by saying the test for considering whether people should be excluded should be based on a "real possibility of bias" - not the more stringent test of actual bias.



    14.05pm




    Heather Williams QC, representing two Hillsborough families, begins.


    Ms Williams expresses degree of concern for 10th January deadline for interested parties to confirm if they wish to call on expert evidence - and if so, indicate which experts.


    Ms Williams asks, could some flexibility be built into this deadline?
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    14.38pm


    Mr O'Connor on request for disclosure of names of officers who have declined interviews and request for whole list of 240 interview statements altered.

    Confirms individuals who have declined number 13, and says there are an additional six who have so far not responded to requests at all and are all retired officers.



    14.31pm




    Mr O'Connor - as far as officers already interviewed and consented to having them recorded, they had understanding that recordings would NOT be transcribed or made available.


    LJ Goldring: "I'm puzzled by that and not sure exactly what you're suggesting", says interview must surely be disclosable. Not quite sure what IPCC would be telling the person, the coroner says.


    Mr O'Connor - officers not given any undertaking disclosure would never be available. But way this process has been advancing to date is that the making of transcripts would be an "exceptional course" if there were particular reasons why it needed to be done.





    14.29pm







    14.25pm


    Some of the police officer interviews have lasted eight hours



    14.23pm


    This will be of great interest, the counsel for the IPCC:

    Andrew O'Connor speaking now for the IPCC.


    Says of the 240 statements altered, 51 officers or retired officers are not be to interviewed for one reason or another (he will elaborate he says).


    Of the remaining 189, they have interviewed 143 of those individuals.



    14.22pm


    From Sean in London:

    Ms Leek says OR happy to disclose names of police officers not co-operating to the coroner.


    Audio/transcriptions of OR interviews with non-significant witnesses would not be practical from here on in says Ms Leek. LJ Goldring confirms this is not being suggested.
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    14.57pm


    Mr Green says Police Federation has no problem with names of police officers who don't co-operate being given to coroner.



    14.57pm


    Mr Green says Police Federation has no problem with names of police officers who don't co-operate being given to coroner.



    14.52pm


    Mr Green says disclosure of interview recordings may lead to some people not being as co-operative as they possibly would be otherwise. Not the Police Federation's stance, he says, but may be the position of some officers.

    Mr Green: "I haven't expressed that very well but I hope you know what I mean."



    14.50pm


    Mr Sam Green now, for the Police Federation.

    Says objection is not to proposition that in some cases needs to be disclosure of recordings - but should have "reasonable concern" identified in writing to LJ Goldring to authorise disclosure.

    LJ Goldring: "What does that mean? In practice?"

    Mr Green: "The concern really is logistical."

    LJ Goldring asks, you're not in principle rejecting it but doubting feasibility of the mechanics of it?

    Mr Green: "Absolutely."

    Mr Green says "health issues" may be raised from some of those who have to be interviewed. Groans and gasps from the Hillsborough families.



    14.42pm


    Fiona Barton for South Yorkshire Police speaking now.

    Says where interviews are tape recorded, transcripts should be provided.

    Ms Barton confirms SYP does not represent individual officers.

    On shadow jury - "we can see the practical benefit...but we share your team's concerns about the proper legal basis for it."



    14.38pm


    Not all of 240 witnesses have yet been approached by the IPCC, says Mr O'Connor. Says that if names of those who have yet to co-operate are published, may harm process of co-operation further down the line.
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    15.21pm


    On transcribing/disclosing witness interviews - keen at outset not to compromise investigations of IPCC and OR but production of transcripts from interviews which have been and will be recorded will NOT seriously compromise those investigations.



    15.21pm


    On disclosure, says police notebooks (received today by IPCC) will be subject to onward disclosure subject to appropriate redaction.

    Investigations "are going at a considerable pace and with transparency". In his submission, not appropriate to set deadlines for provision of material from investigations - will constantly be being produced up to start of the inquests.

    In principle "a good point" to disclose names of the 240 officers whose statements were altered.

    LJ Goldring says - how about mechanics of that go from IPCC/OR to coroner, then on to others if relevant?

    Mr Hough gives general agreement.



    15.17pm




    On the jury questionnaire - envisage schedules will be produced of excusals and non-excusals of potential jurors and those schedules will give brief reasons.


    Says counsel not persuaded by general question on whether anyone has been a member of an ambulance service anywhere across the country.


    In terms of shadow/alternate jurors says law seems to suggest a single group of people need to be sworn in at the outset, hear the evidence and follow case through.


    But says as a practical measure, between three and six extra people should be empanelled at the outside and be kept on for the first week.


    Some practical concerns, eg about deliberations with other jurors - how/when would these take place with shadow/alternates? Could pose risk to the inquests.




    15.09pm




    Jon Hough, one of the five-strong Counsel to the inquests, to speak.


    In relation to pathologists, says they are stressing to the team urgency of production of individual reports. But adds accuracy has also been stressed.


    For toxicologists, says their view is that one should not be engaged as this stage - "prepared to keep an open mind on that" but remains their view for reasons of irrelevance mentioned this morning.




    15.05pm


    Ms Jenni Richards for Yorkshire Ambulance Service keeps it brief.

    Nothing to add from St John Ambulance, South Yorkshire Fire and Rescue Service, Sheffield Wednesday FC, the FA, Sheffield City Council as LJ Goldring asks each in turn.



    15.03pm


    Mr Andrew Nuttall now for DCC Hayes and ACC Anderson.

    Keeps it brief - says he entirely endorses previous submissions from Mr Beggs and Mr Welch.



    15.01pm


    Mr Welch now for retired chief superintendents Terry Wain and Donald Denton.

    Mr Welch: "We all want the process to be as open" as possible.

    Sooner interview material is transcribed and given to interested parties the better, he says.



    15.01pm


    Mr John Beggs QC now for retired superintendents Duckenfield, Greenwood and Marshall.

    Mr Beggs: "We all have the common aim of securing as impartial a jury as humanly possible."

    Wants deletion of term "active" supporter (of LFC) from people who could be excluded from jury. Says there can be "ardent armchair" fans.
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    15.36pm


    LJ Goldring: "Plainly private matters should not be disclosed, only those parts relevant to the inquests need to be disclosed. It seems to me this may not have been entirely thought through. The IPCC are taking statements which, as well as being used in the inquests, may be used in any subsequent criminal case."

    "No-one, therefore, can be assured if that is what has happened, that what has been said in the interview will not be disclosed."



    15.36pm


    LJ Goldring on interviews before witness statements are taken.

    Summarises process: The IPCC and as far as significant witness interviews go the OR, speak to witness, those representing families want to speak to interviews - at present the IPCC says disclosure is not necessary as the statement will reflect what the witness has to say.

    Police Federation has expressed concern disclosure may reveal private information about witness.

    IPCC cannot force retired officer to co-operate.



    15.32pm


    BUT sees "no difficulty" in having some potential jurors in the course of the opening of the case. "That will happen."



    15.30pm


    On alternate/shadow jurors, says he understands rationale but "it seems to me there is absolutely no legal basis upon which I can order that there should be a reserve jury."

    Adds - it may give rise to difficult problems "for example the jury once empanelled and sworn can't discuss the case with anyone outside their number - what then happens when someone new joins that jury after two or three months?"



    15.29pm


    LJ Goldring to make several short rulings now.

    LJ Goldring: “It seems to me absolutely clear that we must start these inquests on the date that was set.”



    15.28pm


    On transmission of the hearings, says it is for those responsible for Statutory Instruments to decide whether an extension should be granted whether to televise these inquests.

    But says an internet feed provided on a secure basis - "we can see potential legal and practical problems with that course."



    15.25pm


    Jon Hough on the venue - consultation will continue and where it is possible to make reasonable adjustments, we will do so.

    As to conference facilities, he says, question arises as to whether they should be available in a nearby building if possible - either on ad hoc hired basis or longer term lease basis.

    Says it is a matter for LJ Goldring to give an indication of whether that should happen.
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    15.50pm


    And it’s over for the day after just short of five hours in total. We’ll be gathering reaction from the families who are here today.

    Stick with the ECHO site this evening for more.



    15.48pm


    LJ Goldring stresses importance of getting things done in good time - says we'll have a jury who have lives to go back to. Expects co-operation between all participants so as to "set sensible timetables for the case as a whole."

    LJ Goldring: "This is not an adversarial process, it is a fact-finding process."

    LJ Goldring finishing up. Anticipates another Hillsborough pre-inquest hearing at beginning of February - but not in this building. Not clear at this stage whether that would be London or elsewhere.



    15.45pm


    LJ Goldring agrees that inquest should not sit in the week beginning 14th April



    15.45pm


    Broadcasting would plainly require Statutory change - "inconceivable" for purposes of this inquest. Internet feed open for further consideration.



    15.38pm


    Will keep an open mind about number of sitting days, he says.



    15.38pm


    Accepts preparation of transcripts will be expensive and time consuming.

    On the approach of Police Federation - "I cannot believe that it would seek to stand in the way of as open and full examination of all these issues as possible. I cannot see how its members interests' would be advanced by advice from the Federation not to co-operate."

    Identification of non co-operating officers - their "identities will be disclosed to me and if it is relevant that information will be released to the interested persons."
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    Morning...hope everyone had a good Christmas......


    only found out about this last night but you can catch it on iplayer...


    Charlotte Hennessy, Danny (Anne Williams brother) and some other families have taken part in an interview with the BBC. It will be screened in BBC breakfast tomorrow, every hour from 6am til 9am then will be on throughout the day on both BBC one and the news channel.



    BBC iplayer........it's on the BBC breakfast show - starts at 8.19am.
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    By Tommie Collins

    Hillsborough: Tremadog man to relive his experiences of the disaster in new S4C series
    2 Jan 2014 11:34

    Cadw Cwmni to reflect on tragedy which saw 96 Liverpool fans killed



    Mark Williams, from Tremadog, who was caught up in the Hillsborough disaster Mark Williams, from Tremadog, who was caught up in the Hillsborough disaster


    A FOOTBALL fan caught up in the Hillsborough disaster will relive the tragedy in front of the cameras in a new heart to heart series which starts next week on S4C.

    Almost 25 years has passed since the tragic incident which saw 96 Liverpool fans killed and a further 766 injured.

    Mark Williams of Tremadog, who was 22 years old at the time, was at the Leppings Lane stand where the fatal crush took place.

    He recalls that the pushing and shoving in the crowd was worse than normal in football matches before the game between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest in the FA Cup semi-final on April 15, 1989.

    The game was being held at Hillsborough, Sheffield Wednesday’s home ground, and Mark felt that the larger Liverpool contingency had been squeezed into the smaller part of the stadium.


    He remembers conditions getting increasingly more constricted there and people starting to panic and clambering over the high fences to escape the fatal crowd squeeze.

    “I don’t remember to this very day how my friends and I got out of there alive” he said.

    “All I can remember is standing on the pitch and watching others desperately trying to climb over the fences.”

    One of the consequences of the tragedy was that perimeter fences were taken down in football stadia, but it was only in September 2012 that an independent review panel officially recognised that it wasn’t the fans but the police who were mainly responsible for the tragedy.

    But Mark recalls that the fans were convinced in the immediate aftermath of the event that it was the police who were responsible because they hadn’t provided fans with exits from the stand.

    "I remember people screaming to the police on the street ... ‘It's your fault, it's your fault ...’.

    “It's hard to believe that it took so long to get to the truth as to what happened at the time.”

    The programme called Cadw Cwmni will be shown on Monday, January 6 , on S4C 9.30pm.

    The programme will be presented by John Hardy.


    http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/nort...iences-6461901
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