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Thread: Do I Not Vote Or Do I Vote?

  1. #61  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreams-come-true View Post
    Many things have been "said". But not really proven. Still, I agree with rhoscoch that even if he did "support" the IRA verbally, it doesn't mean that he really did support them financially.... where there is (quick google) only circumstantial evidence.

    And as to Lennon not knowing the difference between IRA and the UVA.... I very much doubt he was that ignorant.
    That was a big part of the article that he offered to the IRA that he would play a concert for the protestants! I think it was mainly due to his working class hero 'image' that he was trying to portray. We still get it today when all the celebs run out to follow the latest cause. He made a similar slip up when he was one of the supposed intelligent celebs who supported James Hanratty's innocence, when it has been proven that he was guilty, so it is not a far reach to think he did the same thing with IRA support. And it was indicated he wanted to support the IRA by actually 'helping' the cause, which cannot be allied with a man of peace.
    Remember at the time he was probably taking all sorts of mind bending drugs, so he was probably not sure what day it was. That would explain why he was banging Yoko
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  2. #62  
    dreams-come-true is online now First team regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by hysen View Post
    That was a big part of the article that he offered to the IRA that he would play a concert for the protestants! I think it was mainly due to his working class hero 'image' that he was trying to portray. We still get it today when all the celebs run out to follow the latest cause. He made a similar slip up when he was one of the supposed intelligent celebs who supported James Hanratty's innocence, when it has been proven that he was guilty, so it is not a far reach to think he did the same thing with IRA support. And it was indicated he wanted to support the IRA by actually 'helping' the cause, which cannot be allied with a man of peace.
    Remember at the time he was probably taking all sorts of mind bending drugs, so he was probably not sure what day it was. That would explain why he was banging Yoko
    I think too much is made about "mind bending drugs" .... from personal experience, it has never really affected me to the extent that I would confuse issues. But I hear what you have had to say about the other stuff ... even though I find them hard to believe. Lennon was born in Liverpool, which is at least 1 third Irish.... with Orange Parades and St. Paddy's Day celebrations.

    Of course, you have your opinions. But I find them hard to "stomach" especially as he really did have some very profound things to say about life in general. You can believe what you want and I will too. I will leave this particular topic as it is. Cant be bothered to hammer out the details/issues. John Lennon will still remain one hero who is held in the highest esteem as far as I am concerned.
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  3. #63  
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    Freedom-Democracy. Words that are always linked.

    It is fascinating today how people seem to believe that they actually have a relevant influence on what their government does, forgetting that the very notion of our system offers everything for sale.
    The only vote that counts is the monetary vote and it doesn't matter how much an activist yells about ethics and accountability.
    In a monetary system, every politician, every legislation and hence, every government, is for sale.
    Even with the $20 trillion bank bailouts that started in 2007, an amount of money which could have changed, say, the global energy infrastructure to fully renewable methods, instead going to a series of institutions that literally do nothing to help society, institutions that could be removed tomorrow with no recourse, the blind conditioning that politics and politicians exist for the public well being still continues.
    The fact is, politics is a business and like any other in a free market system they care about their self interest before all else.

    Zeitgeist.
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    I don't believe in compulsory voting, (though those that don't vote ought to be ashamed......and keep their traps shut when moaning about The Government), but we should try new ways to increase turn out.

    Why do we have to vote on a Thursday?? Only 1 day for voting, polls close at 10pm, then only insomniacs and nerds see the results come in live.

    We should open the polls on Friday, re-open Saturday morning then close at 2pm. This would boost turn out, and everybody could watch the results come in at tea time, giving the whole shebang an X-Factor/Strictly/Final Score sheen.

    Assuming mass fraud can be avoided, online and postal voting should be expanded, especially if we want to encourage younger voters. And the voting age should be dropped to 16. But if the under 25s continue to vote in such depressingly low numbers they shouldn't be surprised that politicians keep sucking up to the over 60s and ignoring their problems.

    Perhaps the biggest problem is First Past the Post. If you live in a safe seat, there really isn't much worth voting for, even if you support the incumbent (still a poor excuse though!). Given that coalition government looks here to stay even under FPTP, we really ought to reconsider PR again, so that EVERY vote counts.
    Last edited by DuklaPragueAwayKit; 15-4-15 at 22:57.
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  5. #65  
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    Quote Originally Posted by DuklaPragueAwayKit View Post
    I don't believe in compulsory voting, (though those that don't vote ought to be ashamed......and keep their traps shut when moaning about The Government), but we should try new ways to increase turn out.

    Why do we have to vote on a Thursday?? Only 1 day for voting, polls close at 10pm, then only insomniacs and nerds see the results come in live.

    We should open the polls on Friday, re-open Saturday morning then close at 2pm. This would boost turn out, and everybody could watch the results come in at tea time, giving the whole shebang an X-Factor/Strictly/Final Score sheen.

    Assuming mass fraud can be avoided, online and postal voting should be expanded, especially if we want to encourage younger voters. And the voting age should be dropped to 16. But if the under 25s continue to vote in such depressingly low numbers they shouldn't be surprised that politicians keep sucking up to the over 60s and ignoring their problems.

    Perhaps the biggest problem is First Past the Post. If you live in a safe seat, there really isn't much worth voting for, even if you support the incumbent (still a poor excuse though!). Given that coalition government looks here to stay even under FPTP, we really ought to reconsider PR again, so that EVERY vote counts.
    The trouble is that every electoral system has its advantages and disadvantages (explained here).

    So whilst FPTP may cause smaller parties issues in breaking a dominant two and boundary definitions could be open to gerrymandering so one party has an advantage over the other. PR causes issues by providing smaller parties a greater level of power than the electorate wished and allows the more extreme parties an easier chance of gaining seats (due to being a national party the BNP came 5th in 2010 (the Greens would still have finished 7th behind the SNP even if the Scottish and Northern Irish Green Votes are included.

    It should also be noted that even in Liverpool Walton (considered to be the safest seat in the country) if everyone who didn't vote had voted for one of the other candidates Steve Rotheram would not have been elected in 2010. That includes Darren Ireland of the Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition who received 195 votes.
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  6. #66  
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul143 View Post
    The trouble is that every electoral system has its advantages and disadvantages (explained here).

    So whilst FPTP may cause smaller parties issues in breaking a dominant two and boundary definitions could be open to gerrymandering so one party has an advantage over the other. PR causes issues by providing smaller parties a greater level of power than the electorate wished and allows the more extreme parties an easier chance of gaining seats (due to being a national party the BNP came 5th in 2010 (the Greens would still have finished 7th behind the SNP even if the Scottish and Northern Irish Green Votes are included.

    It should also be noted that even in Liverpool Walton (considered to be the safest seat in the country) if everyone who didn't vote had voted for one of the other candidates Steve Rotheram would not have been elected in 2010. That includes Darren Ireland of the Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition who received 195 votes.
    Fair points, PR always risks allowing extremists a platform, but even under FPTP the likes of the SNP seem likely to win 13% of all the seats in the UK whilst receiving <3% of the vote, whilst UKIP will (thankfully) win <1% of seats from >10% of the vote. FPTP only keeps out the fringes when 2 parties dominate, whilst PR at least fairly reflects everyone's views. And we shouldn't be afraid of giving more airtime to idiots like Farage, the public soon see through these clowns. Look at how the BNP plunged into chaos after the odious Griffin's pathetic performance on QT, despite huge attempts to ban him.

    Regarding Walton, it's rational to assume many non voters would have supported Labour but thought they would win any way, so it's unrealistic to think all non Labour voters would line up behind a single candidate. I'm only glad that I live in a marginal seat (Warrington South) where every vote really counts.

    It can't be right that the "magic million" swing voters in <100 marginal seats decide every election, but under FPTP this will never change.
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    UK citizens do not have the option to select 'none of the above' in the ballot box.

    UK citizens do not have the option to vote for a party with a chance of forming government that has not signed up to neoliberal marketisation.

    The first past the post electoral system produces outcomes that bear little relation to the actual votes cast.

    The parents, grandparents and/or great grandparents of many UK citizens were born in countries that were colonised, subjugated and looted by this country, and therefore do not buy the line of the hard won vote means everyone should vote.

    Politicians are contemptuous of the public. They spout party lines rather than answer questions.

    The main parties create false squabbles when in reality little separates them.

    Yet, the injunction is vote, vote, vote.
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  8. #68  
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    How much is your vote worth?
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  9. #69  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    How much is your vote worth?
    For me it is 0.261 votes based on last years result and the size of the constituency compared to the average by 13.04%.

    http://www.voterpower.org.uk/

    The averages are 0.305 votes and a constituency size of 69,718
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  10. #70  
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    Quote Originally Posted by purejam View Post
    Politicians are contemptuous of the public. They spout party lines rather than answer questions.
    Why do you think they toe the party line? What would happen if each of them gave their own opinion on each issue? How would it be reported?

    Imo, it would be sensationalised as ''Party Split on.......!'' ''they can't even agree amongst themselves.........!" etc
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  11. #71  
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    Quote Originally Posted by purejam View Post
    UK citizens do not have the option to select 'none of the above' in the ballot box.

    UK citizens do not have the option to vote for a party with a chance of forming government that has not signed up to neoliberal marketisation.

    The first past the post electoral system produces outcomes that bear little relation to the actual votes cast.

    The parents, grandparents and/or great grandparents of many UK citizens were born in countries that were colonised, subjugated and looted by this country, and therefore do not buy the line of the hard won vote means everyone should vote.

    Politicians are contemptuous of the public. They spout party lines rather than answer questions.

    The main parties create false squabbles when in reality little separates them.

    Yet, the injunction is vote, vote, vote.
    So why not form your own party that reflects your views, or stand as an Independent?
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  12. #72  
    dreams-come-true is online now First team regular
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    As I have said, even though Labour has changed its policies since Blair, nevertheless people need to vote out the Tories! If only for this one small point about the Tax Havens

    http://press.labour.org.uk/post/1102...r-books-in-six

    See point 4. in the link
    4. The UK tax gap - the difference between what HMRC thinks it should collect and what it gets - has risen under David Cameron to 34bn

    Which might be a mere bagatelle for some people, but for me it could help a lot in resolving some of the funding issues and create much needed jobs.

    Call it slowly slowly or one step at a time .... but at least this would be one step in the right direction!
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  13. #73  
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    Quote Originally Posted by DuklaPragueAwayKit View Post
    So why not form your own party that reflects your views, or stand as an Independent?
    Have you actually looked into this?

    I am not sure that you have.

    Do you know how much it costs to run an election campaign?
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  14. #74  
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhoscoch View Post
    Have you actually looked into this?

    I am not sure that you have.

    Do you know how much it costs to run an election campaign?
    500 deposit, which is refunded if you get >5% of the vote. Print off your manifesto at home and doorstep your voters house by house, good luck!

    Seriously though, it's too easy to just stand aside and label all the parties as the same, it's much harder to join a political party and aggressively campaign for real change, but if you passionately believe in your causes more people will follow your lead, and you can help shape future policies (as happened in 1945).
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  15. #75  
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhoscoch View Post
    Freedom-Democracy. Words that are always linked.

    It is fascinating today how people seem to believe that they actually have a relevant influence on what their government does, forgetting that the very notion of our system offers everything for sale.
    The only vote that counts is the monetary vote and it doesn't matter how much an activist yells about ethics and accountability.
    In a monetary system, every politician, every legislation and hence, every government, is for sale.
    Even with the $20 trillion bank bailouts that started in 2007, an amount of money which could have changed, say, the global energy infrastructure to fully renewable methods, instead going to a series of institutions that literally do nothing to help society, institutions that could be removed tomorrow with no recourse, the blind conditioning that politics and politicians exist for the public well being still continues.
    The fact is, politics is a business and like any other in a free market system they care about their self interest before all else.

    Zeitgeist.
    You aren't quoting Zeitgeist the film are you? That "film" was a big steaming pile and I regret ever wasting my time watching and investigating it.
    Eat. Sleep. Rave. Repeat.
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  16. #76  
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    Quote Originally Posted by DuklaPragueAwayKit View Post
    500 deposit, which is refunded if you get >5% of the vote. Print off your manifesto at home and doorstep your voters house by house, good luck!

    Seriously though, it's too easy to just stand aside and label all the parties as the same, it's much harder to join a political party and aggressively campaign for real change, but if you passionately believe in your causes more people will follow your lead, and you can help shape future policies (as happened in 1945).
    How is it difficult to join a party and be a volunteer activist?

    You don't have to join a party to try to achieve change.

    For me, the most important consideration is whee my time and energies are best spent. Engaging in party politics or local community activity. I feel far more empowered and effective in the latter.

    Party politics is a paid up club, localism has a direct effect on people's lives.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eloader View Post
    You aren't quoting Zeitgeist the film are you? That "film" was a big steaming pile and I regret ever wasting my time watching and investigating it.
    No, it's not from the film.

    It could be included in it, I don't know I haven't watched the film.

    It is from the zeitgeist movement though, specifically the tie in with the Venus project.

    Good critique you presented though, very informative.
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  18. #78  
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    Quote Originally Posted by DuklaPragueAwayKit View Post
    500 deposit, which is refunded if you get >5% of the vote. Print off your manifesto at home and doorstep your voters house by house, good luck!

    Seriously though, it's too easy to just stand aside and label all the parties as the same, it's much harder to join a political party and aggressively campaign for real change, but if you passionately believe in your causes more people will follow your lead, and you can help shape future policies (as happened in 1945).
    I see 'apolitical' grass roots movements that utilise social media such as 38 degrees as being more relevant to me at present.

    Just watching a Tusc PPb and like what I am hearing however they have a 'far left' lead weight round their necks
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul143 View Post
    For me it is 0.261 votes based on last years result and the size of the constituency compared to the average by 13.04%.

    http://www.voterpower.org.uk/

    The averages are 0.305 votes and a constituency size of 69,718
    Lucky you my vote is worth 0.005 of a vote
    Officially the safest seat in Britain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul143 View Post
    Whilst I accept that many are not considering to vote. For those who have yet to register only have one week left.

    It can take up to 5 minutes online.

    https://www.gov.uk/register-to-vote
    Today is the last day you can register online or in the council offices. The electoral commission announced that 7.5m have not yet registered which is twice the amount of people who voted for anyone other than the major 3 national parties.

    For those who are considering not voting: the following methods can be used to declare your vote spoilt as well as writing they are all useless wastrels or a bunch of no-hopers. Now I appreciate for some "Voter's intention is unclear" and the method of spoilage is counter-intuitive e.g. a cross against none of the above is clear.

    1. Crosses against multiple candidates (Voter's intention is unclear)
    2. Cross that goes from each corner of the sheet of paper (Voter's intention is unclear)
    3. Cross that is split equally (more or less) between two candidates (Voter's intention is unclear)
    4. Creating a none of the above box and putting a cross in there (Voter's intention is unclear)
    5. Signing it (Voter can be identified)
    6. Name and address (Voter can be identified)

    Source http://www.electoralcommission.org.u...papers-WEB.pdf
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    Still over 7 million people not registered to vote in the UK. Cut off point is midnight. Shameful.
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    Agree with Socratease. Gotta vote. Why?

    Matter of personal conscience I suppose.

    Yes there are many glaring imperfections and yes we have too many weaselly, samey politicians nowadays. But, the truth is that I was born into a system and country where the right, the freedom to vote was not earned by me in any way, but by others who went before me and strived and sacrificed to keep voting a fundamental right.

    To refuse to vote is to insult those British families who gave everything to keep the country free from a fate much, much worse than Milliband, Cameron and the rest. The current crop may not inspire, but don't let the absence of perfection fool you into thinking that you are taking the moral high ground by refusing to vote.

    Vote for the party that you find least objectionable or vote for the manifesto that best mirrors your principles or just vote out of economic or social self-interest, but do vote.
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  23. #83  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Centre View Post
    Agree with Socratease. Gotta vote. Why?

    Matter of personal conscience I suppose.

    Yes there are many glaring imperfections and yes we have too many weaselly, samey politicians nowadays. But, the truth is that I was born into a system and country where the right, the freedom to vote was not earned by me in any way, but by others who went before me and strived and sacrificed to keep voting a fundamental right.

    To refuse to vote is to insult those British families who gave everything to keep the country free from a fate much, much worse than Milliband, Cameron and the rest. The current crop may not inspire, but don't let the absence of perfection fool you into thinking that you are taking the moral high ground by refusing to vote.

    Vote for the party that you find least objectionable or vote for the manifesto that best mirrors your principles or just vote out of economic or social self-interest, but do vote.
    Agreed, as there will neither a party that someone agrees with most of their policies (although maybe not to the extent they want) there will be a party that has one or two policies that align directly with the someone's viewpoints or there will be individuals that people will vote for because they know that particular PPC will be able to do a good job as a constituency MP even if they go against the party's policy.
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  24. #84  
    Socratease is offline LFC Forums Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul143 View Post
    Agreed, as there will neither a party that someone agrees with most of their policies (although maybe not to the extent they want) there will be a party that has one or two policies that align directly with the someone's viewpoints or there will be individuals that people will vote for because they know that particular PPC will be able to do a good job as a constituency MP even if they go against the party's policy.
    Good point paul143, though I would consider the basis of the ethos, and it's origin, with evidenced scrutiny of any political party vying for election. The immediate person who is submitted for election by any political party is based upon the personality that any political party wishes to project/promote to gain the consituency that is targeted.


    "Happiness depends upon ourselves.", Aristotle.


    "Worthless people live only to eat and drink, people of worth eat and drink only to live.", Socrates.




    Vote, and be active in helping to make a difference.








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    The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance. Socrates.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DuklaPragueAwayKit View Post
    I don't believe in compulsory voting, (though those that don't vote ought to be ashamed......and keep their traps shut when moaning about The Government), but we should try new ways to increase turn out.

    Why do we have to vote on a Thursday?? Only 1 day for voting, polls close at 10pm, then only insomniacs and nerds see the results come in live.

    We should open the polls on Friday, re-open Saturday morning then close at 2pm. This would boost turn out, and everybody could watch the results come in at tea time, giving the whole shebang an X-Factor/Strictly/Final Score sheen.

    Assuming mass fraud can be avoided, online and postal voting should be expanded, especially if we want to encourage younger voters. And the voting age should be dropped to 16. But if the under 25s continue to vote in such depressingly low numbers they shouldn't be surprised that politicians keep sucking up to the over 60s and ignoring their problems.

    Perhaps the biggest problem is First Past the Post. If you live in a safe seat, there really isn't much worth voting for, even if you support the incumbent (still a poor excuse though!). Given that coalition government looks here to stay even under FPTP, we really ought to reconsider PR again, so that EVERY vote counts.
    I do. But with a caveat. There should be a space to spoil yr ballot paper or tick a box saying "I dont agree with any of the above".
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    When should I expect my polling card through, the election isn't far away?
    Eat. Sleep. Rave. Repeat.
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  27. #87  
    MiraclesArePossible is online now Boot Room insider
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    The funny thing is that Socrates didn't believe in democracy.
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    People should be left to do what they think is right whether that be to vote, who to vote for or simply abstain.
    Furthermore. the people of this country would reject any suggestion of mandatory voting, there would be widespread disobedience and it would become unenforceable. We put up with a lot but I believe that would prove to be too much.
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    Ghyll you can do that yourself.

    So if you had the following ballot and you wrote the text in Red then it would be declared spoilt as the "voter's intention is unclear" that is the official definition although I agree that it is counterintuitive as your intentions are perfectly clear.

    Bennett, Natalie (Green Party)
    Cameron, David (Conservative)
    Clegg, Nick (Liberal Democrat)
    Farage, Nigel (UKIP)
    Miliband, Ed (Labour)
    None of the Above X

    Although it would be interesting to see what would happen if you added the following.

    Wood, Leanne (Plaid Cymru) X when you are not in a constituency Plaid Cymru are contesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eloader View Post
    When should I expect my polling card through, the election isn't far away?
    Firstly, when did you register to vote as that may have an influence on when you should get the card. I have already had mine for about a couple of weeks but I registered in 2013 that I was living in my current address.

    I would check to see if you are registered (either at your current or previous address) if not then you will not be able to vote.

    However, you will not need a polling card to vote as highlighted in this webpage although I would take some form of ID. http://www.electoralcommission.org.u...n-i-still-vote
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul143 View Post
    Ghyll you can do that yourself.

    So if you had the following ballot and you wrote the text in Red then it would be declared spoilt as the "voter's intention is unclear" that is the official definition although I agree that it is counterintuitive as your intentions are perfectly clear.

    Bennett, Natalie (Green Party)
    Cameron, David (Conservative)
    Clegg, Nick (Liberal Democrat)
    Farage, Nigel (UKIP)
    Miliband, Ed (Labour)
    None of the Above X

    Although it would be interesting to see what would happen if you added the following.

    Wood, Leanne (Plaid Cymru) X when you are not in a constituency Plaid Cymru are contesting.



    Firstly, when did you register to vote as that may have an influence on when you should get the card. I have already had mine for about a couple of weeks but I registered in 2013 that I was living in my current address.

    I would check to see if you are registered (either at your current or previous address) if not then you will not be able to vote.

    However, you will not need a polling card to vote as highlighted in this webpage although I would take some form of ID. http://www.electoralcommission.org.u...n-i-still-vote
    Not long at my current address though I did fill the form in a fair while ago (6 weeks ish).

    Thanks for the link, I'll have a read up.
    Eat. Sleep. Rave. Repeat.
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