Notices
Reply to Thread
Page 66 of 73 FirstFirst ... 16566465666768 ... LastLast
Results 1,951 to 1,980 of 2186

Thread: Emre Can Thread

  1. #1951  
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    24,122
    Quote Originally Posted by tricky95 View Post
    Don't forget that once Alonso left we still had arguably the world's best destroyer at the time in Mascherano in midfield, however despite that we fell off a cliff in terms of our balance of a team, especially defensively. The best form of defence is by not letting the opposition have the ball, and unfortunately currently, we don't do that. Sure against the lower teams we have lots of possession once they have scored a goal and parked the bus, but what we need is to be able to go away, get the ball and control the game until the finish. That's how you stop conceding goals imo. We give teams a chance.

    The perfect example was against Burnley the other day. Until they scored the goal, we hardly got a touch of the ball and they kept on coming at us, and coming at us, until the pressure was too much for our frail defence and they scored. After that, they sat back and said break us down, so obviously statistically it would suggest we dominated the game from there out, but we shouldn't be allowing these teams to get into the game in the first place.
    We fell of the cliff because we lost that perfect balance in Alonso and Mascherano as our two, surely you can see that.
    Currently we have too many Alonso's and no Mascherano's is my point.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  2. #1952  
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    24,122
    Quote Originally Posted by tricky95 View Post
    It has worked exceeding well against the top teams...as I have pointed out. No need for change to the system there. But as I have also pointed out it hasn't worked well against the smaller/more direct teams.

    Where we differ in opinion is how we combat these smaller/more direct teams. Your suggestion to me seems like you have identified the issue of too many goals conceded (which I 100% agree with) and come to the conclusion that: Destroyer = More defensively solid = More wins against smaller teams.

    However my view is Deep Lying Playmaker = More Control = Less chances conceded = Less Goals Conceded.
    Look at what your saying and then tell me it doesn't make perfect sense to have a destroyer and a deep lying playmaker beside him= Balance....

    I'm going to sound like a broken record but the balance of our midfield isn't right no DM and not enough width.
    Last edited by grudge; 20-3-17 at 12:41.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  3. #1953  
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    22,295
    Quote Originally Posted by grudge View Post
    We fell of the cliff because we lost that perfect balance in Alonso and Mascherano as our two, surely you can see that.
    Currently we have too many Alonso's and no Mascherano's is my point.
    Eh? We've got too many Alonsos? Really?

    I'd say we have a completely different balance of midfield with 0 Alonsos, Mascheranos or Gerrards.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  4. #1954  
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    5,636
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach791 View Post
    I think he's not dismissing other ways to defend. For example the best side defensively n Europe are Bayern Munich. They kept another clean sheet last game with two holding players Alonso and Thiago with Muller ahead.

    Which one is the destroyer? In England the strongest defensive sides are Chelsea and Spurs and both have two holding players. You could say Chelsea have two destroyer's and Spurs one sometimes two.

    The conclusion is perhaps that you can have players sitting deep, numbers at the back, players 'destroying' and that can be a strong defensive system. Equally you can have sides that press high and control possession and territory and that's a different type of defending but clearly potentially equally if not more effective in terms of success.
    Tbf, both Chelsea and Spurs (Wanyama & Dembele) are occupying the top two spots of the League and irrespective of Bayern's system, and I believe even Pep and Klopp acknowledge this, it's clear that Premier League is something different to Bundesliga. Both leagues are physical, but the amount of smaller teams counterattacking without fear is very dangerous to be playing "safe" or too open.

    I'd say 2 "destroyers" is luxury, but 1 is definitely crucial for any team that wants to overplay the opponents with their quality, without the risk of backfiring. We don't have anyone who fits that profile - not Henderson nor Can. Both good players, but they are retrained and as much as they try to offer solid basis for others, CDM just isn't their natural forte. Looking on our devastating defensive records for last couple of seasons, it's clear to see that the trend starts from the moment Mascherano left. Fine, Lucas also offered that "destroyer" presence in few spells, but injuries and different coaches didn't help this anyway.
    I really cannot blame defenders (centrebacks mostly) anymore for this defensive fragility at Liverpool, during which we have or had plenty of decent players to create a solid defensive unit. Just consider this - if there's a belief you can "re-train" others into different roles, how is it impossible to train natural defenders into defending? Perhaps they weren't or aren't world-class defenders, but they aren't **** either. For me, it is the lack of understanding from coaches that Liverpool need a designated midfielder that will stay and protect the back line against countering opponents.

    I really hope Klopp understands that and brings a midfielder that is primarily defensive-minded (playmaker skills should be bonus, not necessity), because the current selection seriously lacks that. We simply have too many similar box-to-box players with versatility, but no special traits. One may say that it bring factor of being "unpredictable", but I'd argue that very few footballers can be just as effective on both ends of the pitch. I think it sometimes creates confusion and meaningless waste of energy among the players. Don't get me wrong, I am all for movement in our play, but perhaps in certain games (especially against lower teams) we should mix it up. Perhaps play simple football with players designated to defend and certain attacking players like Coutinho, Firmino, Mane or Lallana staying up front, not wasting energy levels for whole 90 mins? Perhaps that could be just as effective, refreshing and sustainable for whole season run? Perhaps that could be our "Plan B" as oppose to bringing a big target man which clearly isn't fitting into Klopp's plans.
    Last edited by Ephemer; 20-3-17 at 12:49.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  5. #1955  
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Posts
    6,140
    Quote Originally Posted by grudge View Post
    We fell of the cliff because we lost that perfect balance in Alonso and Mascherano as our two, surely you can see that.
    Currently we have too many Alonso's and no Mascherano's is my point.
    If only.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  6. #1956  
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    24,122
    Quote Originally Posted by ***Stuzzza*** View Post
    Eh? We've got too many Alonsos? Really?

    I'd say we have a completely different balance of midfield with 0 Alonsos, Mascheranos or Gerrards.
    What I was trying to say was they are all very similar to a degree, a lot closer to Alonso than Mascherano. I wasn't suggesting they were of the quality at all if that's what it sounds like.......
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  7. #1957  
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    22,295
    Quote Originally Posted by grudge View Post
    What I was trying to say was they are all very similar to a degree, a lot closer to Alonso than Mascherano. I wasn't suggesting they were of the quality at all if that's what it sounds like.......
    I just think the whole thing is a red herring. Not one of our current midfielders could accurately be described as a Gerrard or an Alonso or a Mascherano - they're just not alike at all. Hendo maybe a bit like Gerrard, but not really. They were also all 3 amongst the very best midfielders in the world. We're building a different midfield with different players.

    That old midfield is not the blueprint.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  8. #1958  
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    1,270
    Quote Originally Posted by grudge View Post
    We fell of the cliff because we lost that perfect balance in Alonso and Mascherano as our two, surely you can see that.
    Currently we have too many Alonso's and no Mascherano's is my point.
    Quote Originally Posted by grudge View Post
    Look at what your saying and then tell me it doesn't make perfect sense to have a destroyer and a deep lying playmaker beside him= Balance....

    I'm going to sound like a broken record but the balance of our midfield isn't right no DM and not enough width.
    Are you kidding?! Too many Alonso's!!! Where on Earth have you come to that conclusion from. Please good lord, don't compare Xabi Alonso's playmaking ability with Jordan Henderson's. That's just an embarrassing comparison!

    I agree the perfect balance was the Mascherano-Alonso-Gerrard combo. But that was a different manager, with a different philosophy on how the game should be played. Klopp did not have that style combination at Dortmund, so he's not going to change his philosophy here.

    Instead he would argue the perfect balance is a Deep Lying Playmaker ala Sahin. A combative midfielder ala Bender and a number 10 ala Gotze. When Sahin departed he actually even got more extreme with it, and replaced him with Gundogan who many see as a CAM who was converted (remind you of anyone; Gini).

    He has never had a Makelele/Mascherano style player, and would never want one imo. Instead what he asks is for the entire midfield to work in unison to win the ball back quickly and efficiently and when his team have the possession he actually has stated that he actually considers his side to be a possession based side, despite what the press would have you believe about him being all blood and thunder regardless of opposition.

    As for the lack of width bringing Coutinho central, would allow for a proper winger (ie Brandt who is his number 1 target by all accounts) to operate on the left, thus we have increased width.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  9. #1959  
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    24,122
    Quote Originally Posted by tricky95 View Post
    Are you kidding?! Too many Alonso's!!! Where on Earth have you come to that conclusion from. Please good lord, don't compare Xabi Alonso's playmaking ability with Jordan Henderson's. That's just an embarrassing comparison!

    I agree the perfect balance was the Mascherano-Alonso-Gerrard combo. But that was a different manager, with a different philosophy on how the game should be played. Klopp did not have that style combination at Dortmund, so he's not going to change his philosophy here.

    Instead he would argue the perfect balance is a Deep Lying Playmaker ala Sahin. A combative midfielder ala Bender and a number 10 ala Gotze. When Sahin departed he actually even got more extreme with it, and replaced him with Gundogan who many see as a CAM who was converted (remind you of anyone; Gini).

    He has never had a Makelele/Mascherano style player, and would never want one imo. Instead what he asks is for the entire midfield to work in unison to win the ball back quickly and efficiently and when his team have the possession he actually has stated that he actually considers his side to be a possession based side, despite what the press would have you believe about him being all blood and thunder regardless of opposition.

    As for the lack of width bringing Coutinho central, would allow for a proper winger (ie Brandt who is his number 1 target by all accounts) to operate on the left, thus we have increased width.
    Read post 1956 where I have already explained myself.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  10. #1960  
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    5,960
    Quote Originally Posted by grudge View Post
    Read post 1956 where I have already explained myself.
    I thought it was obvious what you were saying mate
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  11. #1961  
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    5,636
    Quote Originally Posted by tricky95 View Post
    Are you kidding?! Too many Alonso's!!! Where on Earth have you come to that conclusion from. Please good lord, don't compare Xabi Alonso's playmaking ability with Jordan Henderson's. That's just an embarrassing comparison!

    I agree the perfect balance was the Mascherano-Alonso-Gerrard combo. But that was a different manager, with a different philosophy on how the game should be played. Klopp did not have that style combination at Dortmund, so he's not going to change his philosophy here.

    Instead he would argue the perfect balance is a Deep Lying Playmaker ala Sahin. A combative midfielder ala Bender and a number 10 ala Gotze. When Sahin departed he actually even got more extreme with it, and replaced him with Gundogan who many see as a CAM who was converted (remind you of anyone; Gini).

    He has never had a Makelele/Mascherano style player, and would never want one imo. Instead what he asks is for the entire midfield to work in unison to win the ball back quickly and efficiently and when his team have the possession he actually has stated that he actually considers his side to be a possession based side, despite what the press would have you believe about him being all blood and thunder regardless of opposition.

    As for the lack of width bringing Coutinho central, would allow for a proper winger (ie Brandt who is his number 1 target by all accounts) to operate on the left, thus we have increased width.
    Erm, you label Bender as combative midfielder yet state he never had one?
    Having a CDM in a team for every game is not necessary, but having one in your squad is an absolute MUST! Mind you, I've never ever seen a successful football side that doesn't feature with one defensive midfielder.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  12. #1962  
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    1,270
    Quote Originally Posted by grudge View Post
    Read post 1956 where I have already explained myself.
    Quote Originally Posted by WinterPool Stark View Post
    I thought it was obvious what you were saying mate
    Well on the Mascherano to Alonso scale of 1-100, if the question is where do Henderson and Can fit and your claiming 51, thus closer to Alonso, then perhaps your right, but I think 52 would be going too far...
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  13. #1963  
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    1,270
    Quote Originally Posted by Ephemer View Post
    Erm, you label Bender as combative midfielder yet state he never had one?
    Having a CDM in a team for every game is not necessary, but having one in your squad is an absolute MUST! Mind you, I've never ever seen a successful football side that doesn't feature with one defensive midfielder.
    Bender was the most defensive of the midfielders by default as a result of how creative the likes of Gotze, Gundogan and Sahin were, but he wasn't a 'destroyer'. He was actually a very similar player to Emre Can. And in my theoretical midfield of 'Alonso'-Can/Henderson-Coutinho as quoted earlier then a large majority of the defensive responsibility would by default lie at Can/Henderson's feet.

    And having a CDM in the 'squad' is a different thing, but finding a destroyer CDM who is quality and doesn't mind just being a squad player is next to impossible. We might as well just pursue with Stewart and Grujic as those options.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  14. #1964  
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    20,016
    Quote Originally Posted by MrDilkington View Post
    I think Henderson has plenty of quality on the ball, just does nor rampage forward as much as Can does, Wijnaldum is another one that is decent on his day, but still far from what we need and nowhere near consistent either.
    Ideally we should just bring in another one of higher quality without selling, then all three get some real competition and a reason to perform more often.
    My personal opinion

    Sitting defensive midfielder shouldn't be more than two yards 5 yards in front of the central defences and really move from that position

    Which then gives you a shield in front of the central defenders which means they don't get isolated by players who play in the pocket

    So when we defend we should have one bank of five the second bank of four , leve the lone striker up top

    When we attack we should have bank of three second bank of four and third bank of three

    When Henderson played as a defensive midfielder for Rodgers he was good but eith Kopp he is far superior and disciplined enough to play the sitting role
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  15. #1965  
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    5,960
    Quote Originally Posted by tricky95 View Post
    Bender was the most defensive of the midfielders by default as a result of how creative the likes of Gotze, Gundogan and Sahin were, but he wasn't a 'destroyer'. He was actually a very similar player to Emre Can. And in my theoretical midfield of 'Alonso'-Can/Henderson-Coutinho as quoted earlier then a large majority of the defensive responsibility would by default lie at Can/Henderson's feet.

    And having a CDM in the 'squad' is a different thing, but finding a destroyer CDM who is quality and doesn't mind just being a squad player is next to impossible. We might as well just pursue with Stewart and Grujic as those options.
    Grujic is not that player too
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  16. #1966  
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    20,016
    Quote Originally Posted by grudge View Post
    I think we 100% do need to sign a DM, even if it means the likes of Henderson, Can or Wijnaldum end up on the bench.
    Why would Wijnaldum ge get dropped he not competing for the defensive midfielder is 1 of technical box to box central midfielders
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  17. #1967  
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    5,960
    Quote Originally Posted by BeautifulHistory View Post
    Why would Wijnaldum ge get dropped he not competing for the defensive midfielder is 1 of technical box to box central midfielders
    because another player coming in means the Captain will need to play somewhere...
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  18. #1968  
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    5,636
    Quote Originally Posted by tricky95 View Post
    Bender was the most defensive of the midfielders by default as a result of how creative the likes of Gotze, Gundogan and Sahin were, but he wasn't a 'destroyer'. He was actually a very similar player to Emre Can. And in my theoretical midfield of 'Alonso'-Can/Henderson-Coutinho as quoted earlier then a large majority of the defensive responsibility would by default lie at Can/Henderson's feet.

    And having a CDM in the 'squad' is a different thing, but finding a destroyer CDM who is quality and doesn't mind just being a squad player is next to impossible. We might as well just pursue with Stewart and Grujic as those options.
    Bender is nowhere near similar to Emre Can, Henderson or Grujic (haven't seen enough of Stewart to make a judgement). He was the destroyer that allowed others to blossom in front of him, just like Masch allowed Alonso and Gerrard. Don't be confused by marginal creativity because, by that definition, Masch was a creative combative midfielder too.
    Just because they "destroy" attacks doesn't mean the likes of Wanyama, Kante, Matic, whoever else isn't capable of slight creativity. Now, comparing to these names - where the heck do you see similarities with Henderson or Can? In your categories: Henderson and Can fit the Alonso role, while Gini/Lallana/Coutinho the Gotze role. Actually, by naming all of these players you just confirm my argument that we have too many similar players competing for 1 or 2 positions, yet none for CDM.
    Now, Can could develop into one, but on current state, none of our players fit the Mascherano "master of protecting the backline" role.

    I already mentioned, a CDM is preferable against lesser sides to prevent counterattacking and last time I checked my math the amount of top teams < lower teams. Not to mention the number of games, competitions, etc.
    Last edited by Ephemer; 20-3-17 at 14:01.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  19. #1969  
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    20,016
    Quote Originally Posted by WinterPool Stark View Post
    because another player coming in means the Captain will need to play somewhere...
    So we move Henderson out of defensive role what he's shown is far superior in

    and then play him more advanced role replacing another advance midfielder
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  20. #1970  
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    24,122
    Quote Originally Posted by BeautifulHistory View Post
    So we move Henderson out of defensive role what he's shown is far superior in

    and then play him more advanced role replacing another advance midfielder
    That would be either Wijnaldum or Lallana, which one do you think he should replace?
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  21. #1971  
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    20,016
    The system we play is one sitting defensive.

    That one sitting player has to be disciplined and doesn't move from the front of the two central defenders.

    Other teams employ

    one sitting defensive midfielder and one roaming box to box destroyer

    Or

    Roaming box to box destroyer and box to box playmaker and attacking midfielder in front of them

    Or

    Two sitting defensive midfielders with attacking midfielder front of them

    The list of permutations could go on.

    Right now

    Two questions have to be looked at

    Question 1 what type of defensive sitting midfielder should be look at a physical athlete or a technical player

    Question 2 would Klipp changes formation and add permutations of different setups how are we would play
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  22. #1972  
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    1,270
    Quote Originally Posted by Ephemer View Post
    Bender is nowhere near similar to Emre Can, Henderson or Grujic (haven't seen enough of Stewart to make a judgement). He was the destroyer that allowed others to blossom in front of him, just like Masch allowed Alonso and Gerrard. Don't be confused by marginal creativity because, by that definition, Masch was a creative combative midfielder too.
    Just because they "destroy" attacks doesn't mean the likes of Wanyama, Kante, Matic, whoever else isn't capable of slight creativity. Now, comparing to these names - where the heck do you see similarities with Henderson or Can? In your categories: Henderson and Can fit the Alonso role, while Gini/Lallana/Coutinho the Gotze role. Actually, by naming all of these players you just confirm my argument that we have too many similar players competing for 1 or 2 positions, yet none for CDM.
    Now, Can could develop into one, but on current state, none of our players fit the Mascherano "master of protecting the backline" role.

    I already mentioned, a CDM is preferable against lesser sides to prevent counterattacking and last time I checked my math the amount of top teams < lower teams. Not to mention the number of games, competitions, etc.
    Have you read any of my previous posts???

    Firstly yes Bender is similar to Can. Both physical players, that are average at everything, master of none, so by default they find themselves in a quasi defensive role. But by no stretch of the imagination would I consider Sven Bender an out and out 'destroyer'. As for the names you mentioned, I agree they are 'destroyers' and I also agree they can be creative...what's your point??

    My point is those players put out fires first, retain possession second. Imo that is not the way to go. As mentioned in my earlier posts, I believe the way for us to improve our fortune against the lower end/direct sides is to try and control the tempo of the game better, and I have stated that currently we don't possess a player who can do that. If we did this it would limit the number of chances we would concede in those games, putting less pressure on our defence and hopefully in theory resulting in less goals conceded. My issue with simply adding a 'destroyer' is that teams play very very direct against us, as this is the best way to combat the press (something we're not stopping anytime soon, and rightly so). As a result, they actually often bypass our midfield, meaning a destroyer becomes far less relevant.

    As for the roles then god knows how you came to conclusion that Can/Hendo were in the Alonso role...when Alonso was actually quoted ffs!!

    To spell it out for you my system would be : 'Alonso style player' - The first of the two pivots in the 4-2-3-1 formation as I quoted earlier, with the responsibility of controlling the game.
    Hendo/Can - The second of the two pivots responsible for the majority of the defensive work and to maintain the press in the middle, something that Hendo in particular excels at.
    Coutinho - When he is on it, he is our most creative player, thus against teams that park the bus, he needs to be central to have more of the ball. Furthermore this would allow for a more authodox . winger which would stretch the play making more room for the number 9 and number 10 (coutinho) to operate in, something that currently they don't have against the lower end teams.

    As mentioned this system is solely for lower end/direct teams. We shouldn't change a jot from our current set up against the top teams!
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  23. #1973  
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    20,016
    Quote Originally Posted by grudge View Post
    That would be either Wijnaldum or Lallana, which one do you think he should replace?
    The thing is what keep saying

    We play

    With one disciplined screen deep defensive midfielder

    Henderson

    ruled out Can out that position because he hasn't got the defensive skills or the discipline

    Two technical box to box pass and move goal scoring creative midfielders Wijnaldum & Lallana

    Again I ruled out can out that position because again he hasn't got ncessary skills for that role

    Henderson, Wijnaldum, Lallana have gel as a unit and look very functional.

    Against City where he played more natural game where he can bursting forward and have a physical scrap he comes out a better player

    From that one game I've now confused,

    I don't know where we go with Can and whole of central midfield
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  24. #1974  
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    5,636
    Quote Originally Posted by tricky95 View Post
    Have you read any of my previous posts???

    Firstly yes Bender is similar to Can. Both physical players, that are average at everything, master of none, so by default they find themselves in a quasi defensive role. But by no stretch of the imagination would I consider Sven Bender an out and out 'destroyer'. As for the names you mentioned, I agree they are 'destroyers' and I also agree they can be creative...what's your point??

    My point is those players put out fires first, retain possession second. Imo that is not the way to go. As mentioned in my earlier posts, I believe the way for us to improve our fortune against the lower end/direct sides is to try and control the tempo of the game better, and I have stated that currently we don't possess a player who can do that. If we did this it would limit the number of chances we would concede in those games, putting less pressure on our defence and hopefully in theory resulting in less goals conceded. My issue with simply adding a 'destroyer' is that teams play very very direct against us, as this is the best way to combat the press (something we're not stopping anytime soon, and rightly so). As a result, they actually often bypass our midfield, meaning a destroyer becomes far less relevant.

    As for the roles then god knows how you came to conclusion that Can/Hendo were in the Alonso role...when Alonso was actually quoted ffs!!

    To spell it out for you my system would be : 'Alonso style player' - The first of the two pivots in the 4-2-3-1 formation as I quoted earlier, with the responsibility of controlling the game.
    Hendo/Can - The second of the two pivots responsible for the majority of the defensive work and to maintain the press in the middle, something that Hendo in particular excels at.
    Coutinho - When he is on it, he is our most creative player, thus against teams that park the bus, he needs to be central to have more of the ball. Furthermore this would allow for a more authodox . winger which would stretch the play making more room for the number 9 and number 10 (coutinho) to operate in, something that currently they don't have against the lower end teams.

    As mentioned this system is solely for lower end/direct teams. We shouldn't change a jot from our current set up against the top teams!
    We seem to disagree on many levels.

    • Sven Bender not being a natural destroyer, even though the guy is comfortable playing both as CDM and CB. He wasn't a lost puppy which made Klopp decide "oh well, fill that blank space in midfield", but he had a real purpose and important role. He is a pro-defensively orientated player, as oppose to Can who is just disorientated. Your view on Emre reminds me of this summer where people were dead certain he'd be ahead of Henderson for that spot. Now, after God-know how many shocking performances, he showed promising moments and next thing you know - he's our CDM solution for future! How fickle can people be? Besides, if he's "average at everything, master of none", that still isn't promising solution, is it?
    • The other "beef" I have with your concept is thinking that we should add more creativity to be formidable challengers. When will you guys understand that our problem doesn't lie with us being not dominant or controling enough in small games, but the fact we sacrifice too many players up front with lack of real quality cover behind them. We don't need more attacking intent (Liverpool is topping the goals scored statistic anyway) nor control or press (we mostly overun and have more possession against those teams), but simple defensive and physical presence in the midfield that will allow certain players to focus onto their attacking game. We'd be having more players in the box too. But your view make me believe you'd want to revert back to 2013/2014, when we had Gerrard-Henderson-Coutinho (Sterling at the tip of the diamond) which was still absolutely shambolic in controlling and keeping other teams from scoring against us. Trust me, "Alonso style player"-Henderson/Can-Coutinho would be a disastrous decision that wouldn't improve our defensive record at all and you wouldn't have Suarez to fish you out.


    If every single football person by now knows that defense is more important than attack, as well as the fact that top teams keep using CDM's in their team .... why the heck do we all persist with adding more control or creativity, when the only ingredient to have a really versatile and complete squad is bringing a natural ball-winning defensive midfielder!? And I absolutely refute your arguments of "it's not Klopp's gameplay" when evidently he did use one in his most successful managerial period at Dortmund.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  25. #1975  
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    1,270
    Quote Originally Posted by Ephemer View Post
    We seem to disagree on many levels.

    • Sven Bender not being a natural destroyer, even though the guy is comfortable playing both as CDM and CB. He wasn't a lost puppy which made Klopp decide "oh well, fill that blank space in midfield", but he had a real purpose and important role. He is a pro-defensively orientated player, as oppose to Can who is just disorientated. Your view on Emre reminds me of this summer where people were dead certain he'd be ahead of Henderson for that spot. Now, after God-know how many shocking performances, he showed promising moments and next thing you know - he's our CDM solution for future! How fickle can people be? Besides, if he's "average at everything, master of none", that still isn't promising solution, is it?
    • The other "beef" I have with your concept is thinking that we should add more creativity to be formidable challengers. When will you guys understand that our problem doesn't lie with us being not dominant or controling enough in small games, but the fact we sacrifice too many players up front with lack of real quality cover behind them. We don't need more attacking intent (Liverpool is topping the goals scored statistic anyway) nor control or press (we mostly overun and have more possession against those teams), but simple defensive and physical presence in the midfield that will allow certain players to focus onto their attacking game. We'd be having more players in the box too. But your view make me believe you'd want to revert back to 2013/2014, when we had Gerrard-Henderson-Coutinho (Sterling at the tip of the diamond) which was still absolutely shambolic in controlling and keeping other teams from scoring against us. Trust me, "Alonso style player"-Henderson/Can-Coutinho would be a disastrous decision that wouldn't improve our defensive record at all and you wouldn't have Suarez to fish you out.


    If every single football person by now knows that defense is more important than attack, as well as the fact that top teams keep using CDM's in their team .... why the heck do we all persist with adding more control or creativity, when the only ingredient to have a really versatile and complete squad is bringing a natural ball-winning defensive midfielder!? And I absolutely refute your arguments of "it's not Klopp's gameplay" when evidently he did use one in his most successful managerial period at Dortmund.
    Well I can agree to disagree on the Bender-Can comparison. Can't believe you feel a player who has played for the World Champions at every age group in both the CDM role and in defence can be completely 'disorientated', but okay...

    But your still completely missing the point on the second point and I think you are completely underestimating the role someone like Xabi Alonso plays. Xabi was the elite of the elite in his position so it would have been next to impossible to replace him like for like, but what we have always missed since he has been gone, and something that seems a blatant issue for me at the moment with our track record against the smaller teams which is the ability to control a game and game manage.

    The way in which he controlled the game is by his fantastic reading of the game, not due to his excellent ability/creativity on the ball. It's something a lot of people misunderstand about Xabi, as they see him and put him in the same bracket as say Pirlo, but they are very different players. Pirlo is on par, if not slightly better than Xabi in terms of the long range passing and vision and plays positionally a very similar role to Xabi...but Xabi is heads and shoulders a better player for me...why? Because what Pirlo can't do as well Xabi is the reading of the game, Pirlo improved as his career went on, but he never reached Xabi's ridiculous levels in his pomp. Xabi used to know when to recycle the ball, he used to know when the ball needs spreading to the other side of the pitch and Xabi used to know when to take the sting out of the game when the opposition was building momentum. These are all things that we lack from all of our midfielders currently and it means that we can't game manage.

    You have made the comparison to Rodgers' system with Gerrard, Henderson, Coutinho and Sterling...and I think you have once again confused the difference between that team and the system I am suggesting. As good as that team was going forward, we all know its many, many faults in defensive areas. But this was due to Gerrard not having the same game management ability as Xabi in the same position. He could match Xabi's output going forward; the long range passing, the vision from deep, the set plays etc but he was pretty useless at game management, which meant that our games ended up being like basketball games...not what I am at all suggesting!!

    Thus I still agree. Defence is more important than attack to win titles, but for as important as a destroyer may be, there is no coincidence that Xabi Alonso throughout his career has turned up to teams and improved them and helped them win trophies.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  26. #1976  
    TheDarknessIsCalling is online now Academy prospect
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    18,470
    Quote Originally Posted by grudge View Post
    We fell of the cliff because we lost that perfect balance in Alonso and Mascherano as our two, surely you can see that.
    Currently we have too many Alonso's and no Mascherano's is my point.
    Agreed. Alonso's loss was perhaps the biggest single factor in our decline from title contenders to 7th, albeit we weren't that many points off 4th.

    But seems so many thought then and think now that balance and attacking mean you play one DM and attacking full-backs "bombing forward", yet with Arbeloa and Aurelio not exactly the most bombing forward of full-backs, Alonso and Mascherano hardly the most attacking (in terms of getting forward) midfielders we still managed 77 goals in 08/09
    People will believe what they want to believe
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  27. #1977  
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    9,576
    -----Wijinuldum-----Bender-----Can

    2017-18?
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  28. #1978  
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    5,636
    Quote Originally Posted by tricky95 View Post
    Well I can agree to disagree on the Bender-Can comparison. Can't believe you feel a player who has played for the World Champions at every age group in both the CDM role and in defence can be completely 'disorientated', but okay...

    But your still completely missing the point on the second point and I think you are completely underestimating the role someone like Xabi Alonso plays. Xabi was the elite of the elite in his position so it would have been next to impossible to replace him like for like, but what we have always missed since he has been gone, and something that seems a blatant issue for me at the moment with our track record against the smaller teams which is the ability to control a game and game manage.

    The way in which he controlled the game is by his fantastic reading of the game, not due to his excellent ability/creativity on the ball. It's something a lot of people misunderstand about Xabi, as they see him and put him in the same bracket as say Pirlo, but they are very different players. Pirlo is on par, if not slightly better than Xabi in terms of the long range passing and vision and plays positionally a very similar role to Xabi...but Xabi is heads and shoulders a better player for me...why? Because what Pirlo can't do as well Xabi is the reading of the game, Pirlo improved as his career went on, but he never reached Xabi's ridiculous levels in his pomp. Xabi used to know when to recycle the ball, he used to know when the ball needs spreading to the other side of the pitch and Xabi used to know when to take the sting out of the game when the opposition was building momentum. These are all things that we lack from all of our midfielders currently and it means that we can't game manage.

    You have made the comparison to Rodgers' system with Gerrard, Henderson, Coutinho and Sterling...and I think you have once again confused the difference between that team and the system I am suggesting. As good as that team was going forward, we all know its many, many faults in defensive areas. But this was due to Gerrard not having the same game management ability as Xabi in the same position. He could match Xabi's output going forward; the long range passing, the vision from deep, the set plays etc but he was pretty useless at game management, which meant that our games ended up being like basketball games...not what I am at all suggesting!!

    Thus I still agree. Defence is more important than attack to win titles, but for as important as a destroyer may be, there is no coincidence that Xabi Alonso throughout his career has turned up to teams and improved them and helped them win trophies.
    I can't recall watching Emre playing as CDM in German midfield (senior level), but he did feature as a fullback here and then. Ok, he ain't "disorientated", but I still don't see his forte and just because he had one very good performance against City I won't jumo to conclusion of him being our best CDM candidate. Injuries aside, he had nightmare performances unrelated to his mobility. He is prone to being rash and undisciplined very often, elements that I dont want see anywhere near that role. Still young though and could turn into monster in upcoming years, but for now, I don't want to put all my hopes with Can being our only CDM option next season.
    Bender is different calibre, but there's no point if you can't see it.

    I can feel your admiration for Xabi and I am one of his biggest fans too. Never felt so hurt to see him leave this club, especially when knowing he didn't want it either. Top player and everything you say is spot on, but I do have to wonder - where do you think you will find the "next Alonso"? Like you described, he was a unique, one-of-a-kind player and I struggle to see anyone capable of filling his boots.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  29. #1979  
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    5,155
    Quote Originally Posted by Shriekback View Post
    -----Wijinuldum-----Bender-----Can

    2017-18?
    Id be quite happy with either Bender brother
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  30. #1980  
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    22,295
    Quote Originally Posted by Ephemer View Post
    I can't recall watching Emre playing as CDM in German midfield (senior level), but he did feature as a fullback here and then. Ok, he ain't "disorientated", but I still don't see his forte and just because he had one very good performance against City I won't jumo to conclusion of him being our best CDM candidate. Injuries aside, he had nightmare performances unrelated to his mobility. He is prone to being rash and undisciplined very often, elements that I dont want see anywhere near that role. Still young though and could turn into monster in upcoming years, but for now, I don't want to put all my hopes with Can being our only CDM option next season.
    Bender is different calibre, but there's no point if you can't see it.

    I can feel your admiration for Xabi and I am one of his biggest fans too. Never felt so hurt to see him leave this club, especially when knowing he didn't want it either. Top player and everything you say is spot on, but I do have to wonder - where do you think you will find the "next Alonso"? Like you described, he was a unique, one-of-a-kind player and I struggle to see anyone capable of filling his boots.
    I found Can's recent comments interesting:
    “I’ve had calf problems for many years and it has been very difficult for me...I play in a different position now and I don’t sprint too much.
    When I play at No. 8 I have to go forward and sprint more; when I play at No. 6 I don’t have to sprint too much.


    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.thi...ver-money/amp/

    Didn't know about the long standing issues with his calf, is he saying it's that injury that's left him unable to sprint so much, or his more recent injuries? Is that a permanent effect?

    Certainly, in his words, it's only recently seen him playing deeper and, at least for the moment, he considers that his best position.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   



Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •