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Thread: I don't feel we're getting the best out of Coutinho and it's concerning.

  1. #61  
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamingOfKlopp View Post
    Yep it is the role i want him playing in, it doesn't matter how well organised a an opponent is, players like coutinho don't give them time to react if they can get on the ball early enough. Problem is in our current set up we arnt looking to get coutinho to start the moves we are aiming to get him on the ball last to finish them. I hate him being in that role.

    Ill go as far as saying if Coutinho was being played in that role he would have a better season than Pogba.
    I see no reason why not. I'd be interested to hear what Coutinho thinks his best position is.

    Having said all this, I did expect more from him v Burnley. He needs to learn how to get the most out of his team mates in these packed, tight, situations - instead of just pulling the trigger. He'll learn though, he's a very good footballer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batteries View Post
    What's happened to him? His game has changed.

    This has been a subject that's been bothering me for a year now.

    If I remember correctly Coutinho (as well as others) played a pivotal part in our charge for the title in 2013/14. It's all well and good having a world class striker in Suarez and a top finisher in Sturridge, but they need supply. Coutinho back in those days was more focused on supplying our deadly strikers, he in particular seemed to have formed a relationship with Sturridge. He'd always seem to find him with an acute pass. He was more focused on key passes, rather than goals.

    These were the days of a Coutinho "The Key Master". Coutinho "The Playmaker". Coutinho "The Wizard". Now he's just Coutinho "I'll have a go from 40 yards and because I hit so many, one's gonna go in eventually" if there's space. There must be a stat out there of who takes the most long shots, he must be first on that list. I don't know that official count but he must have had at least 7 long shots at Turf Moor the other day.

    Now this isn't his doing, I firmly believe that the departure of Suarez and injury ridden Sturridge has forced him to change his game. We used to possess forwards who would make clever, darting runs. Suarez was so so clever, never not on the move. When Sturridge was playing up front, he played most of the time on the shoulder of the defender. Now he's acting as our deep lying playmaker?

    This change of game from Coutinho of course hasn't been help by the arrival of target men at this club, Balotelli, Lambert & Benteke. I actually rate Benteke as a striker, but he was never ever a fit for this club. As a club, we're not about long ball and crosses. It's always been pass and move. In the right environment, Benteke will flourish but in an environment like ours a target man's predominant weakness is shown. Appalling movement. No movement, no pass.

    We need to get Coutinho back to his playmaking best, because I just don't see him as playmaker anymore. But it may be too late, Coutinho may be set in the mindset that he's LFC's best player so he needs to make things happen by himself by scoring goals, but the shots that he takes are low percentage shots and sometimes there's a pass on which he ignores because of this state of mind.

    People bang on about Coutinho moving to a bigger club, but he'll never move to a bigger club if he doesn't get back to the Coutinho that shocked us when he arrived in January and turned our season around with Sturridge by putting life into a stagnate Liverpool attack.

    It's a shame because I doubt we'll ever see this Coutinho again, simply by the way we now play. He's out there, on the left hand side of Sturridge who either injured or deeper that Coutinho himself. Even if Origi was on the pitch, a player who's capable of playing on the shoulder, I feel like Coutinho would ignore chances to play a key pass. Firmino simply isn't the type to make runs in behind.

    I dunno, I just feel like we have inadvertently forced Coutinho into this long shot monster and it's not the way forward in my opinion. I would like him to get back to focusing on key passes, and not have a go every time there's space in front of him. But of course, I (we) don't know if he's being asked to play in this fashion.

    Who knows, but I would prefer this Coutinho back.
    --
    Someone else has already said it: As genuine quality has left the side, he has felt more of a need to 'do something'. That something is often to have a pop at a worldy and ofcourse they only work out every so often.

    I agree with you. He works best deeper and there's no reason that - were he deployed on the left of a 3 man midfield - he could not still attempt those worldies when we are dominant. However his starting position being deeper, he could offer us more when we are looking to break quickly (a pass to Mane for example), and similarly when the opposition is camped a la Burnley, he wouldnt be forced to drop deep all the time thereby leaving his post, and this removing any danger should someone look wide or to put the ball in the box.

    I cannot recall exactly, but I am sure in the 'nearly' season our best looking midfield was a diamond with Gerrard at its base, Coutinho (L), Hendo (R) and Sterling (10).

    Coutinho would be playing a pretty similar role. We could try a diamond with Mane / Firmino at 10. Or we could stick to 433 and set the midfield 3 as DreamingofKlopp suggested.
    Last edited by Mr.Wednesday; 23-8-16 at 17:44.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aGothAndaJock View Post
    I see no reason why not. I'd be interested to hear what Coutinho thinks his best position is.

    Having said all this, I did expect more from him v Burnley. He needs to learn how to get the most out of his team mates in these packed, tight, situations - instead of just pulling the trigger. He'll learn though, he's a very good footballer.
    I have always wondered this aswell, i could never work out why BR removed him from that role in 14/15 and all i could think of was maybe Coutinho asked to play in the final 3rd. I hope that wasn't the case because he was so good where he was.

    There is only so kuch he can do mate, he can't save our arses every week. If he didn't score that freekick at Arsenal we would probably be here discussing how we lost to both Arsenal and Burnley. I bet he really feels the pressure when nothing is going right because it always seems like if he doesn't step up no one will. Suarez said he felt the same pressure whilst here and is enjoying his football more without that at barcelona. We really need to get that pressure off him, im hoping by seasons end it will be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamingOfKlopp View Post
    I have always wondered this aswell, i could never work out why BR removed him from that role in 14/15 and all i could think of was maybe Coutinho asked to play in the final 3rd. I hope that wasn't the case because he was so good where he was.

    There is only so kuch he can do mate, he can't save our arses every week. If he didn't score that freekick at Arsenal we would probably be here discussing how we lost to both Arsenal and Burnley. I bet he really feels the pressure when nothing is going right because it always seems like if he doesn't step up no one will. Suarez said he felt the same pressure whilst here and is enjoying his football more without that at barcelona. We really need to get that pressure off him, im hoping by seasons end it will be.
    I'd guess that BR just left Gerrard in control of the midfield because that's what Gerrard wanted to do so he shoved Coutinho further forward and more to the left. Gerrard wanted to be the controlling midfielder and at Liverpool bar Rafa he has been allowed to that. Except that Gerrard wasn't able to do that but he could control Rodgers alright. Our formation was based around that daft quarterback idea.
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    200% agreed .

    Quote Originally Posted by DreamingOfKlopp View Post
    I have always wondered this aswell, i could never work out why BR removed him from that role in 14/15 and all i could think of was maybe Coutinho asked to play in the final 3rd. I hope that wasn't the case because he was so good where he was.

    There is only so kuch he can do mate, he can't save our arses every week. If he didn't score that freekick at Arsenal we would probably be here discussing how we lost to both Arsenal and Burnley. I bet he really feels the pressure when nothing is going right because it always seems like if he doesn't step up no one will. Suarez said he felt the same pressure whilst here and is enjoying his football more without that at barcelona. We really need to get that pressure off him, im hoping by seasons end it will be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeepTheFightForJustice View Post
    We're not getting the best out of Coutinho?

    Since Klopps been here he has been sensational apart from Burnley and the EL final...
    This.

    Not sure where this thread was last week but bizarre when he very easily almost earned his first hat trick at the Emirates just 8 days ago.
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    Suarez wouldn't allow cou to take those shots he would be screaming at him for not passing to him even though he had a player on him.

    Nobody in the squad shouts at other players when they do something wrong.


    If hendo moaned at players they would probably laugh
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defo-skitso View Post
    Suarez wouldn't allow cou to take those shots he would be screaming at him for not passing to him even though he had a player on him.

    Nobody in the squad shouts at other players when they do something wrong.


    If hendo moaned at players they would probably laugh
    He's to busy moaning at the ref's
    “Do. Or do not. There is no try.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defo-skitso View Post
    Suarez wouldn't allow cou to take those shots he would be screaming at him for not passing to him even though he had a player on him.

    Nobody in the squad shouts at other players when they do something wrong.


    If hendo moaned at players they would probably laugh
    Its not about shouting, its that suarez is a game winner too so Coutinho would feel less pressured to come up with the big play at the right moment. I said it before when Coutinho is taking those long shots constantly its because we are being frustrated out of the game and no one else is offering a solution. He looks a very frustrated figure during those sorts of games.

    I think the player coutinho will enjoy playing with the most this season is Mane.

    Exactly Hendo is an embarrassment, he has no right to shout at anyone, he is one of the reasons Coutinho feels the pressure cause of the lack of leadership. Plus all hendo does is swaer at the ref everytime he makes a mistake its a joke.
    Last edited by DreamingOfKlopp; 24-8-16 at 07:22.
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    Quote Originally Posted by theamerican00 View Post
    I'd guess that BR just left Gerrard in control of the midfield because that's what Gerrard wanted to do so he shoved Coutinho further forward and more to the left. Gerrard wanted to be the controlling midfielder and at Liverpool bar Rafa he has been allowed to that. Except that Gerrard wasn't able to do that but he could control Rodgers alright. Our formation was based around that daft quarterback idea.
    But it didn't make sense, Coutinho complimented Gerrard in that position. Having Coutinho there gave Gerrard the space he needed. I honestly couldn't find any justification for the change. It took both hebdo and Coutinho away from their best roles and also isolated Gerrard. So we went from a functioning midfield to nothing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defo-skitso View Post
    Suarez wouldn't allow cou to take those shots he would be screaming at him for not passing to him even though he had a player on him.

    Nobody in the squad shouts at other players when they do something wrong.


    If hendo moaned at players they would probably laugh
    It's not even about 'allowing' him. I think Coutinho's comfortable with other people taking responsibility with scoring, so he can get on with his game.

    He struggles when he's under pressure to deliver a win on his own.

    I think he'll look great with couple of world class players up front. Hopefully Mane's one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamingOfKlopp View Post
    Its not about shouting, its that suarez is a game winner too so Coutinho would feel less pressured to come up with the big play at the right moment. I said it before when Coutinho is taking those long shots constantly its because we are being frustrated out of the game and no one else is offering a solution. He looks a very frustrated figure during those sorts of games.

    I think the player coutinho will enjoy playing with the most this season is Mane.

    Exactly Hendo is an embarrassment, he has no right to shout at anyone, he is one of the reasons Coutinho feels the pressure cause of the lack of leadership. Plus all hendo does is swaer at the ref everytime he makes a mistake its a joke.
    Pathetic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonylet View Post
    It's not even about 'allowing' him. I think Coutinho's comfortable with other people taking responsibility with scoring, so he can get on with his game.

    He struggles when he's under pressure to deliver a win on his own.

    I think he'll look great with couple of world class players up front. Hopefully Mane's one.
    Aye

    I maintain this thread would not have been started after the Arsenal game, its only popped up post Burnley, as it then seemed more of a problem (though IMO he had lots of room and ball to do something against Burnley and just wasn't on his game).

    I can see the Op's point of course, but all this goes back to our obsession with individual players when its always the collective, if he is off the boil or struggling in a game then you need that consistency from others, Firmino to step up or a deeper lying midfielder (hopefully Wijnaldum) to produce that moment or spark to open up a game.

    Obviously Mane gives us something entirely different too so I think with Coutinho, his starting position isn't so important, he can interchange with the front three and they will do in games but its about others stepping up when needs be and not being so reliant on one name every season, alla Suarez, Sturridge now Coutinho
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamingOfKlopp View Post
    Coutinho offers you everything you could ever ask for from a midfield playmaker, ive said it since we signed him he wears 10 but is more of an 8. If we are playing a midfield 3 it is a travesty not to play him there. Especially when its Lallana playing there instead.

    I also think Brannagan should also be getting game time if we are playing a midfield 3, if there is any player in our club that has a similar game to Coutinho it is Brannagan.

    Wjnaldum and Coutinho should be our first team cms with Grujic and Brannagan being developed behind them. Then there is also Elijah, for me getting the most out of these players serves more purpose than trying to make players like Lallana and Henderson players they arnt.
    could not agree more!

    I wrote the other day about the old fashioned numbers where a 6 was your deep midfielder and a 9 was a striker.

    Can is a 6 (Stewart), Coutinho is a 7 (Brannagan), Wijnaldum an 8 (Grugic)Origi a 9 (Sturridge) and Firmino a 10 (Markovic) and our new no 11 Mane (Ojo)

    Just do that and let them play
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    ----------------Mig/Kar------------------
    Clyne--Matip------Lovren--Moreno
    -----------------Can----------------------
    ------------Cou----Lallana-------------
    Mane---------------------------Firmino
    --------------Sturridge------------------


    Would be devastating.
    Last edited by Collard Greens; 24-8-16 at 12:48.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Collard Greens View Post
    ----------------Mig/Kar------------------
    Clyne--Matip------Lovren--Moreno
    -----------------Can----------------------
    ------------Cou----Lallana-------------
    Mane---------------------------Firmino
    --------------Sturridge------------------


    Would be devastating.
    That CM would be a dreadful combination and would be destroyed on a weekly basis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ganymede View Post
    That CM would be a dreadful combination and would be destroyed on a weekly basis.
    Cause their size? Skill? Vision? Dribbling? Work rate? Tactical awareness?
    Please explain Gany, I really think it's the best midfield we could field. 😁
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    Basically, when the **** hits the fan Coutinho doesn't trust his team mates. Simple as.
    To be honest, I don't think any of the forwards do, because when the going gets tough they try and win the game on their own.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bewdleyfan View Post
    Pathetic.
    Good choice of word that is also how i describe his leadership.
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    Quote Originally Posted by photoholic View Post
    could not agree more!

    I wrote the other day about the old fashioned numbers where a 6 was your deep midfielder and a 9 was a striker.

    Can is a 6 (Stewart), Coutinho is a 7 (Brannagan), Wijnaldum an 8 (Grugic)Origi a 9 (Sturridge) and Firmino a 10 (Markovic) and our new no 11 Mane (Ojo)

    Just do that and let them play
    I agree completely mate, but i actually like firmino as a 9 aswell, its good to have that flexibility.

    We definitely see things the same way, i think Klopp just sees Coutinho as his Götze he is playing him the same way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by spider-neil View Post
    Basically, when the **** hits the fan Coutinho doesn't trust his team mates. Simple as.
    To be honest, I don't think any of the forwards do, because when the going gets tough they try and win the game on their own.
    I agree with this, i think Mane will compliment him and Firmino though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Collard Greens View Post
    Cause their size? Skill? Vision? Dribbling? Work rate? Tactical awareness?
    Please explain Gany, I really think it's the best midfield we could field. ��
    Think defensively that midfield is lacking a little in physicality. Would rather have Firmino as the striker instead as I think he'll provide the extra protection with his tracking back. Otherwise its an exciting side going forward.
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    We have to many players who love to keep the ball to get the most out of couthino. Players like Mane and Wiljnaldum is the soulution to this problem. Once our Nr 1 striker, CAM and right as well as CM`s start making runs simultaneously Couthino will shine. The travesty of burnley match was that without Mane and Origi we had no one to really stretch Burnley and Sturridge was pretty much playing as a central midfielder at times.
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    Funny I started a thread like this post Arsenal and it was shut down for being negative !
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strafter View Post
    Think defensively that midfield is lacking a little in physicality. Would rather have Firmino as the striker instead as I think he'll provide the extra protection with his tracking back. Otherwise its an exciting side going forward.
    Yea, Firmino can play anywhere across the front three, he is very flexible.
    Defensively it's not exactly weak, but they are not physically the strongest certainly.
    With Lallana and Cou on the ball, dropping deep into space, and pulling defenders about, we could torment opposing teams. 70% possession would be the norm. Pace in front of Lallana and Cou is deadly. Their first touch and skill on the ball is perfect for the role.
    It is at least an interesting idea, probably one that looks good on paper and not great in reality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by spider-neil View Post
    His shots from the edge of the area are getting pretty ********** infuriating.
    Like at Arsenal you mean?

    I happen to think he is very over rated however and doesnt put in a shift enough times. Apart from Arsenal he has been poor this last 6 weeks or so in pre season esp (he was garbage against Barca for example.
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    Does my head in how inconsistent he is. Should put it out of Vorm's sight for the first chance. Trying to be too cute and give him the eyes instead.

    If he doesn't develop ruthlessness will never be world class. And it will be a shame, because not many have his ability.
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    He was pants today. PANTS. Two points dropped because;
    a) He is an inconstant finisher
    b) Refuses to lay off the ball to a better placed attacker (unless it's Firmino)
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    ...and there are days like today where Coutinho doesn't get the best out of himself. And that is why Barcelona haven't come knocking yet for all the doom-mongerers that tell us "no chance we'll be able to hold onto Phil" every summer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WineForMyMen View Post
    ...and there are days like today where Coutinho doesn't get the best out of himself. And that is why Barcelona haven't come knocking yet for all the doom-mongerers that tell us "no chance we'll be able to hold onto Phil" every summer.
    Dead on right.
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