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Thread: Politics now. The State We're In.

  1. #1 Default Politics now. The State We're In. 
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    I know there is the Labour Leadership thread and the Brexit Aftermath thread but firstly the Lab leadership has been decided and the although the ramifications of the EU vote are still being felt and will be for years there is no politics in general thread. So I'm hoping folks will contribute with whatever political comment they have to offer as there sure is enough to debate about.

    So Theresa May eh? Have to say that apart from the frankly ridiculous "Brexit is Brexit" statement (which makes no grammatical sense whatsoever), her very odd championing of grammar schools and the fact she is going to heavily dismay businesses up and down the land and universities with her anti-immigration rhetoric, I have been very impressed so far. Yes she has stolen a lot of Ed Milliband's last Labour manifesto and indeed Labour over the last 6 years, but there's no better than a repenting sinner as they say. Would we have heard Thatcher, Cameron or Osborne say the things she said today or on the steps of Downing St in June? Would any of her Tory rivals for the leadership - Fox Gove Johnson or Leadson have said the things she's said? No way. In fact id venture that no politician in the last 37 years has said what May has today. Not even Blair or Brown. Does she mean it? Is she going for the Lab vote?? Probably yes to both. Will she follow through and enact what she has promised? Im none too sure. Looking around the hall you could see people thinking, "Is this a Tory leader I see before me?" With a slim commons majority her opponents will give her a rough ride as will the rabid rw press. For that reason alone she may go to the country next spring if she can change the legislation.

    So where do the others position themselves post Brexit and May? UKip are imploding. The Lib Dems are busy trying to find halls (or telephone boxes) small enough for their dwindling band. Farron is trying to reach out but he's on a hiding to nothing due to Clegg's legacy. Now I'm one who believes that yes, Clegg is probably a decent man with sound liberal traits. He made two huge errors. The climb down from the tuition promise and going into coalition with the most rw party for decades. A party set on dogmatic punishing cuts which choked off any recovery and damaged the poorest in society. All of this done by very rich people who didnt care a jot about their fellow citizens. And Clegg supported this trapsing through the lobbies with Osborne and Cameron on the bedroom tax. I will never forgive him for that. My area of work, mental; health has had to endure cut after cut along with the rest of the health service and education. A dreadful dreadful govt which has damaged Britain economically and socially.

    As for Lab Im not sure I will see them elected again in my lifetime (and im a young 59!). Corbyn isnt a leader so much as being part of a collective movement. He reminds me of David Koresh the Wakko religious cult leader. His speech at the conference was very good but he needs to flesh out policy. The likes of the Daily Mail and Sun will crucify him. Do I agree with them? No of course not but they are taking him to task on what he believes in whilst I just do not see him as a leader or PM. Its like Liam Fox becoming leader of the Tories.

    Of course all of this is against the back drop of Brexit where the great British people took back control and handed it over to Murdoch and Dacre. Where in the most graphic example of turkeys voting for Xmas we have rendered ourselves less powerful to the extent of putting ourselves out of jobs. Where we have ushered in hatred and such vileness that British people, with British passports are being attacked on our streets. We have also introduced into the English lexicon such phrases as Brexit means Brexit, surely nothing has ever been uttered which is more meaningless? On a daily basis we are told by the great bulk of our so called free press that all the horror stories about Brexit were and are untrue, ignoring the very salient fact that we are still IN the EU. Who do I think is in charge of Britain? Well despite her forcefulness its not May, its not even the finance houses in the City although they are a very close second. No, the people who are in charge, who have seen off Leveson, the Labour party, the EU and Cameron is the great British press..the right wing element (around 75-80%). They set the agenda (as they did in the referendum), they manipulate it and then largely influence what people say about almost anything.

    Over to you with your contributions. Original thoughts welcome, press influenced thought welcome. Any views you have on what is happening politically will be great to read.
    Last edited by ghyllred; 6-10-16 at 14:24.
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  2. #2  
    dreams-come-true is online now First team regular
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    You "know" me. Never had an original thought in my life.

    Cadets in schools? How very private (public) school!
    The FEAR factor with immigrants taking "your" jobs? .... A very horrible form of politics!

    As to the lack of investments in the poorer areas, where probably the most UKIP support comes .... You know my views on Government intervention in investing in Industries with a FUTURE .... either technologically or in a GREEN way.
    - Because in over 40 years since Thatcher, very little Private Enterprise has done this! The Government has to do this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreams-come-true View Post
    You "know" me. Never had an original thought in my life.

    Cadets in schools? How very private (public) school!
    The FEAR factor with immigrants taking "your" jobs? .... A very horrible form of politics!

    As to the lack of investments in the poorer areas, where probably the most UKIP support comes .... You know my views on Government intervention in investing in Industries with a FUTURE .... either technologically or in a GREEN way.
    - Because in over 40 years since Thatcher, very little Private Enterprise has done this! The Government has to do this.
    Agree with all youve said DCT.
    I have huge issues with at least two of May's proposals.
    Def on immigration which is going to damage us economically and lord knows how much damage will be done socially. I mean the Brexit vote has brought out so much vile hatred.
    Her grammar school proposal is at real odds with what else she is saying which is anti-elitism and anti-individualism..i dont get it. It also goes against all the evidence. London Comprehensives are out performing all Kent grammar schools! Even the head of OFSTED said it would be a backward step.

    Having said all that, we must recognise that what she has said (and i agree lets see the actions) is a complete change of Tory policy over the last 37 years and so should be welcomed.
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    How long does a thread take to clear the mods? I started one on a similar-ish topic yesterday morning, about finance and politics, and it still isn't up.

    Mods?
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    My opinion is Corbyn's presence has already pulled politics back towards the centre. Whether that is deliberate or accidental, whether its to the detriment of his party being elected - probably - it doesn't matter. Labour moved left, the Tories have shifted that way to fill a void, and everyone is better for it. As Labour's policies go from being considered extremist to mainstream, for no reason other than being discussed more and more regularly, Labour will gain back some votes while the tories stay where they are under May; more centrist.

    Lib Dems will be squeezed, and may also pull to the left as a result of whats happening with the Tories and Labour.

    In saying all this, these parties can't overcome the fundamental issues with the political and financial system; it is designed to fail for the masses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaredb_7 View Post
    How long does a thread take to clear the mods? I started one on a similar-ish topic yesterday morning, about finance and politics, and it still isn't up.

    Mods?
    Know exactly what you mean. This one took over 15hrs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaredb_7 View Post
    My opinion is Corbyn's presence has already pulled politics back towards the centre. Whether that is deliberate or accidental, whether its to the detriment of his party being elected - probably - it doesn't matter. Labour moved left, the Tories have shifted that way to fill a void, and everyone is better for it. As Labour's policies go from being considered extremist to mainstream, for no reason other than being discussed more and more regularly, Labour will gain back some votes while the tories stay where they are under May; more centrist.

    Lib Dems will be squeezed, and may also pull to the left as a result of whats happening with the Tories and Labour.

    In saying all this, these parties can't overcome the fundamental issues with the political and financial system; it is designed to fail for the masses.
    Spot on. I was going to mention this. Corbyn has done us all a service. Look at Clinton in the US..she went a little leftwards (though in the US this dont mean much!) after Saunders.

    Yes its v interesting what is happening now and yre right. BUT..we will have to see what she actually does. Interesting that rw newspapers who spent the whole 2015 campaign deriding Milliband are now embracing his policies!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghyllred View Post
    Know exactly what you mean. This one took over 15hrs.
    Mine has been over 24 hours now, there was nothing offensive in there so don't know what the story is.

    Guess it didn't make the cut
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    GrottonRed is online now LFC Forums Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaredb_7 View Post
    Mine has been over 24 hours now, there was nothing offensive in there so don't know what the story is.

    Guess it didn't make the cut
    I'll have a look for you.

    We get multiple threads, often on very similar topics, so it does take a while to get through them.

    If you pop a note in forum feedback it usually speed things up...one way or another.

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    dreams-come-true is online now First team regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaredb_7 View Post
    Mine has been over 24 hours now, there was nothing offensive in there so don't know what the story is.

    Guess it didn't make the cut
    Has happened to me too. I wont take it personally though. Seems to be "hit" and "miss" sometimes.
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    Alpha Papa is online now Academy prospect
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghyllred View Post
    Agree with all youve said DCT.
    I have huge issues with at least two of May's proposals.
    Def on immigration which is going to damage us economically and lord knows how much damage will be done socially. I mean the Brexit vote has brought out so much vile hatred.
    Her grammar school proposal is at real odds with what else she is saying which is anti-elitism and anti-individualism..i dont get it. It also goes against all the evidence. London Comprehensives are out performing all Kent grammar schools! Even the head of OFSTED said it would be a backward step.

    Having said all that, we must recognise that what she has said (and i agree lets see the actions) is a complete change of Tory policy over the last 37 years and so should be welcomed.
    It's weird. My mood was really dropping just because I came on here because I thought the opposite.

    1) Making soldiers not subject to the Human Rights Act? What century are we living in?

    2) Making firms disclose their numbers of foreign workers? Let's just call racism racism when we see it.

    3) Bringing back grammar schools - a policy that has just been disproven on every level. It's not even an opinion point. Every single study every has shown these to have negative effects all round.


    I don't see a single action of Theresa May to date that suggests she is any better than Cameron. I only see even more more horrible, narrow-minded policies. I mean at least Cameron brought in gay marriage, and campaigned against Brexit, and left the Human Rights Act in peace.
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    Firstly, you may want to change Fallon (Current minister for Defence) to Farron.

    In terms of the Grammar Schools. Whilst it was poorly handled: it was released due to someone was seen entering number 10 with a paper saying Grammar schools. When will the civil service/ministers/any other person learn the press will be taking photos/filming any activity in front of number 10 and if they see any text then they will see if there is anything juicy to report.

    Its not like it has happened before oh wait Liverpool John Moores was raided by Antiterror police because one of the students was a suspected terrorist.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/...rity-terrorism

    However, if it is part of a package that will allow every child to have the chance of being the best they can. Along with every child has an equal chance (if they want to take it) to be given the opportunity to go to the grammar school. However, I would also want anything that will be used for selecting the successful pupils to be voluntary and based on advice from teachers. Additionally, potentially offering vocational courses and a course on politics which should be politically neutral.

    I think that the Lib Dems may see a resurgence of support as it may be an option for those who are disillusioned with Labour but are not wanting to go to the Tories.
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    Alpha Papa you are aware that military personnel will still be subject to the Geneva convention which has provisions for situations like unlawful detention, intentional killing of non-combatants amongst other situations that could be classified as a war crime.
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul143 View Post
    Alpha Papa you are aware that military personnel will still be subject to the Geneva convention which has provisions for situations like unlawful detention, intentional killing of non-combatants amongst other situations that could be classified as a war crime.
    Hmmmm ... and what came of the torture in Iraq? Not much. The few who got convicted ... the Generals who condoned this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaredb_7 View Post
    My opinion is Corbyn's presence has already pulled politics back towards the centre. Whether that is deliberate or accidental, whether its to the detriment of his party being elected - probably - it doesn't matter. Labour moved left, the Tories have shifted that way to fill a void, and everyone is better for it. As Labour's policies go from being considered extremist to mainstream, for no reason other than being discussed more and more regularly, Labour will gain back some votes while the tories stay where they are under May; more centrist.

    Lib Dems will be squeezed, and may also pull to the left as a result of whats happening with the Tories and Labour.

    In saying all this, these parties can't overcome the fundamental issues with the political and financial system; it is designed to fail for the masses.
    It's why I wanted Corbyn for Labour leader. At least now one Party is properly leftist, and this has exposed the Tories for the opportunist, centrist blairites that they are, especially May.

    Now there is a vacuum for a proper right wing Party to emerge. The current Tories can take the Lib Dems and the Blairite Labour MPs under their wing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yehez View Post
    It's why I wanted Corbyn for Labour leader. At least now one Party is properly leftist, and this has exposed the Tories for the opportunist, centrist blairites that they are, especially May.

    Now there is a vacuum for a proper right wing Party to emerge. The current Tories can take the Lib Dems and the Blairite Labour MPs under their wing.
    The political spectrum is hugely skewed right. The tories are not centrist, they are still very, very right wing - just less than before. What do you want a "proper right wing" party to come in and do? The entire economy is already hugely geared towards the top 1%, companies have free reign to do as they please and there's not much else left to privatise.
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    Yehez is online now Rating revolutionary
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaredb_7 View Post
    The political spectrum is hugely skewed right. The tories are not centrist, they are still very, very right wing - just less than before. What do you want a "proper right wing" party to come in and do? The entire economy is already hugely geared towards the top 1%, companies have free reign to do as they please and there's not much else left to privatise.
    Erm, I have a different view as to how things are at the moment. I don't the amount of freedom you think people have actually exists. I do agree that corporations can do what they want, but that's not because of too much freedom, on the opposite. It's because they use government to their own advantage.
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    May is the worst thing that happened to the UK since Thatcher.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yehez View Post
    Erm, I have a different view as to how things are at the moment. I don't the amount of freedom you think people have actually exists. I do agree that corporations can do what they want, but that's not because of too much freedom, on the opposite. It's because they use government to their own advantage.
    Like I said, what would you like a "proper right wing" party to do? To me, corporatism is very much a result of right wing policies, and so is inequality. Both are high at the moment.

    Everyone has different definitions of what they see as right and left wing so I'm interested to hear what you think would "help" the economy that is more right wing than what is currently happening.
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    Yehez is online now Rating revolutionary
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaredb_7 View Post
    Like I said, what would you like a "proper right wing" party to do? To me, corporatism is very much a result of right wing policies, and so is inequality. Both are high at the moment.

    Everyone has different definitions of what they see as right and left wing so I'm interested to hear what you think would "help" the economy that is more right wing than what is currently happening.
    Basically a party to campaign for less government. In all aspects of life. I wouldn't the odd stressing on some socially conservative values, but mainly just a party that will say government can't fix anything and to interfere less in the life of individuals. There is very few politicians in the UK who hold this view anyway, at least openly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yehez View Post
    Basically a party to campaign for less government. In all aspects of life. I wouldn't the odd stressing on some socially conservative values, but mainly just a party that will say government can't fix anything and to interfere less in the life of individuals. There is very few politicians in the UK who hold this view anyway, at least openly.
    Interesting. Libertarianism, basically.

    Have to say I think Libertarianism is an absolute recipe for disaster, but fair point - at the very least I think "free market" capitalism would be better than corporatism, or reverse-socialism, we have now. But both still have very little grounds in economic reality, and a more fairly regulated economy is still the only system that will ever work for 99% of the population.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaredb_7 View Post
    Mine has been over 24 hours now, there was nothing offensive in there so don't know what the story is.

    Guess it didn't make the cut
    Has now!
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    Yehez is online now Rating revolutionary
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaredb_7 View Post
    Interesting. Libertarianism, basically.

    Have to say I think Libertarianism is an absolute recipe for disaster, but fair point - at the very least I think "free market" capitalism would be better than corporatism, or reverse-socialism, we have now. But both still have very little grounds in economic reality, and a more fairly regulated economy is still the only system that will ever work for 99% of the population.
    OK. This opinion I can live with because it can debated. And yes, libertarianism is what I like but I know we are very far from it. So I usually concentrate on what can be done.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Papa View Post
    It's weird. My mood was really dropping just because I came on here because I thought the opposite.

    1) Making soldiers not subject to the Human Rights Act? What century are we living in?

    2) Making firms disclose their numbers of foreign workers? Let's just call racism racism when we see it.

    3) Bringing back grammar schools - a policy that has just been disproven on every level. It's not even an opinion point. Every single study every has shown these to have negative effects all round.


    I don't see a single action of Theresa May to date that suggests she is any better than Cameron. I only see even more more horrible, narrow-minded policies. I mean at least Cameron brought in gay marriage, and campaigned against Brexit, and left the Human Rights Act in peace.
    Absolutely agree with those points (bolded) Soldiers are still subject to criminal actions and the Geneva Convention but agree it was straight out of the mouth of the Daily Mail and therefore without any substance.

    i think we must give credit where its due. We will see if actions back up words but she has signaled a change.
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul143 View Post
    Firstly, you may want to change Fallon (Current minister for Defence) to Farron.

    In terms of the Grammar Schools. Whilst it was poorly handled: it was released due to someone was seen entering number 10 with a paper saying Grammar schools. When will the civil service/ministers/any other person learn the press will be taking photos/filming any activity in front of number 10 and if they see any text then they will see if there is anything juicy to report.

    Its not like it has happened before oh wait Liverpool John Moores was raided by Antiterror police because one of the students was a suspected terrorist.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/...rity-terrorism

    However, if it is part of a package that will allow every child to have the chance of being the best they can. Along with every child has an equal chance (if they want to take it) to be given the opportunity to go to the grammar school. However, I would also want anything that will be used for selecting the successful pupils to be voluntary and based on advice from teachers. Additionally, potentially offering vocational courses and a course on politics which should be politically neutral.

    I think that the Lib Dems may see a resurgence of support as it may be an option for those who are disillusioned with Labour but are not wanting to go to the Tories.
    Changed now! thanks.
    Grammar schools are selective that is the point of them. And those not selected will be seen as failures. It is beyond comprehension that she is doing this when considered with what else she has said. It makes no sense at all and will not address social immobility at all. Meanwhile in West Sussex the education authority largely made up of councillors who are ex majors, brigadiers etc have said they may have to introduce a 4 day week for schools in the county. This in a country which is the 6th biggest economy in the world. It beggars belief.
    Last edited by ghyllred; 6-10-16 at 14:31.
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    GrottonRed is online now LFC Forums Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghyllred View Post
    Changed now! thanks.
    Grammar schools are selective that is the point of them. And those not selected will be seen as failures. It is beyond comprehension that she is doing this when considered with what else she has said. It makes no sense at all and will not address social immobility at all. Meanwhile in West Sussex the education authority largely made up of councillors who are ex majors, brigadiers etc have said they may have to introduce a 4 day week for schools in the county. This in a country which is the 6th biggest economy in the world. It beggars belief.
    My local comprehensive already does just 4 and a half days a week..so it will probably not be long away.

    Saying that, staff do the full 5 days...the other half day is for "training".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yehez View Post
    Basically a party to campaign for less government. In all aspects of life. I wouldn't the odd stressing on some socially conservative values, but mainly just a party that will say government can't fix anything and to interfere less in the life of individuals. There is very few politicians in the UK who hold this view anyway, at least openly.
    Thats what we've had for the last 37 years. Anymore of that and society crumbles. Fancy doing your own bin collection? Tarmacing your own bit of road? Putting up your street lighting? Looking after all your own elderly? The list is endless. Its what binds us together and its slowly been eroded over the last 3 decades. No local small Post offices where neighbours used to converse and society felt more together. We only do that for royalty now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghyllred View Post
    Agree with all youve said DCT.

    Her grammar school proposal is at real odds with what else she is saying which is anti-elitism and anti-individualism..i dont get it. It also goes against all the evidence. London Comprehensives are out performing all Kent grammar schools! .
    You can't really compare London, or indeed any part of England, to other parts of England. To get a meaningful comparison you would need to compare perhaps NI (wholly selective) to Scotland (no selection)
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreams-come-true View Post
    Has happened to me too. I wont take it personally though. Seems to be "hit" and "miss" sometimes.
    Threads should get approved as long as they are not offensive, liable to start immediate fights or simply duplicates of others. Nobody's threads are given priority, nobody's are purposely ignored, you guys will have to take my word for that.
    But you observe correctly DCT, the hit and miss element depends on how many moderators are visiting the site and how much time they have to scan through the forums looking for threads awaiting approval and such like. We don't run a shift system or anything like that, mods mod the site as and when they can and so naturally there are times when mod coverage is good, other times when its weak and its at times like those that thread approvals get overlooked. Its nothing personal or anything sinister like that.
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    Coach791 is offline First team regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrottonRed View Post
    My local comprehensive already does just 4 and a half days a week..so it will probably not be long away.

    Saying that, staff do the full 5 days...the other half day is for "training".
    Is there a reason why people would be against a 4 day school week?
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