Notices
Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 53 FirstFirst 12341252 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 1563

Thread: More Tea Please, Brexit and the Stiff Upper Lip 2

  1. #31  
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    13,274
    Quote Originally Posted by DantesShadow View Post
    I can't say I am sure brexit will not be delivered, as my view is that on balance it probably will. BUT, although I was a remain voter, the principle of the 'will of the people'/democracy or whatever we call it is far more important than brexit.

    Nobody can predict the future (the EU was/is not rosy either) and so nearly all elections/referendums are fought on the basis of people predicting what will be best for them. To call it a wrong decision in general assumes huge arrogance of thinking one knows with certainty why each person voted and the future impacts of both the leave and remain choices. What is wrong for one person might be right for another. Even if it is a mistake, people can choose to make that mistake and take that risk. Lets face it - politicians who are at times derided but recently lauded as guardians of judgement against the ignorant masses have made mistakes too - or is the iraq war consigned to history?

    I am not against a 2nd referendum if the situation substantially changes (such as terms of EU membership offered) but that referendum would have to be with the settled uk status being LEAVING EU but a referendum with the substantially different terms offered and do we accept that. Not a re-run with cranked up fear
    not so sure about that. It was never put to the people that they would have the final word but neither was the referendum vote given caveats which it should (such as: "Such a momentous decision would need to be carried by at least 60:40" -Cameron made key errors but then he was a weak PM who cowtowed to the extremists elements in society). I dont buy this will of the people nonsense. I think the good of the whole country is more important and thats what we have elected MPs for. Elements of the press want to ignore parliamentary democracy when it suits them.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  2. #32  
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    21,598
    Quote Originally Posted by ghyllred View Post
    It was never put to the people that they would have the final word
    Didn't they spend something like 9million telling us all that?

    This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...arge_print.pdf
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  3. #33  
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    17,383
    Quote Originally Posted by DantesShadow View Post
    With all the crap coming out of europe, it must be tempting to delay the article triggering indefinitely to troll them back!

    And what's with the EU saying 'all-4-freedoms apply and you cannot have a better deal than is now'; i mean - are they saying freedom of movement is a negative? Kind of goes against their own mantra - surely opting out of that freedom should, by their reckoning, just affect us negatively compared to them?
    In a way yes they are but it is a case of a bitter pill for them to swallow to ensure they maintain the tenets of the four pillars.

    As the UK friendly Maltese president has stated that there will be no uk only deal for freedom of movement that does NOT have an impact on access to the single market. It is not as the leave side suggested of this is what we want and they will bend over backwards to give it to us.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  4. #34  
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Posts
    15,134
    Quote Originally Posted by paul143 View Post
    In a way yes they are but it is a case of a bitter pill for them to swallow to ensure they maintain the tenets of the four pillars.

    As the UK friendly Maltese president has stated that there will be no uk only deal for freedom of movement that does NOT have an impact on access to the single market. It is not as the leave side suggested of this is what we want and they will bend over backwards to give it to us.
    Who will bend over?
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  5. #35  
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Posts
    15,134
    Quote Originally Posted by DantesShadow View Post
    With all the crap coming out of europe, it must be tempting to delay the article triggering indefinitely to troll them back!

    And what's with the EU saying 'all-4-freedoms apply and you cannot have a better deal than is now'; i mean - are they saying freedom of movement is a negative? Kind of goes against their own mantra - surely opting out of that freedom should, by their reckoning, just affect us negatively compared to them?
    Well its quite clear, even the norwegians dont have a deal as good as the uk inside the eu.
    So you cant expect to get a better deal then them when you leave, or else they would want the same.
    And what about the swiss?
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  6. #36  
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    8,408
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach791 View Post
    I am doing something. I'm pointing out that you're supporting government not listening to the people democratically because you selfishly think your opinion is right. You don't care that your opinion is insignificant as is mine but the ability to control our own government is far bigger.

    We've established you don't have a clue about the Eu monetary system and yet you think you know what's best. You want to hear from experts. Experts who get most things wrong. There are any number of experts with expert views and you can pick and choose one to suit your own opinion.

    That's not useful. The experts told us we needed The Washington Consensus, the experts told us Iraq had WMD's, the experts told us instability of the labour market would bring economic growth, the experts told us austerity will work and they were wrong, wrong, wrong and they always will be wrong, wrong, wrong because the experst we get to hear from are the ones owned by money or established power.

    So what's the point of a referendum? If we'd have voted to stay we'd have stayed because government agreed with that. If we vote to leave they'll block it, delay it, produce horror stories to scare us into staying, threaten us and then eventually call for another referendum again until they get the result they want.

    If you want to support that then that's your choice and I can hardly blame the government for exploiting people like yourself and using you as a pawn. If there were less people like you willing to accept governments telling us what to do the world would be in a better place.
    Why did the establishment allow us to have a referendum at all?
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  7. #37  
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    3,095
    Quote Originally Posted by Anubis View Post
    Well its quite clear, even the norwegians dont have a deal as good as the uk inside the eu.
    So you cant expect to get a better deal then them when you leave, or else they would want the same.
    And what about the swiss?
    Sure, but a better deal for us is not a better deal for others. FOM works for many and for some it doesn't. Same with single market etc etc.

    But my point is not UK should have a better deal - that's the wrong way to look at it. If the EU thinks FOM is a positive as claimed by the EU - then why talk about it as a negative. And if it is a negative then surely they should find a way to improve it - not carry on with a negative.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  8. #38  
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    13,274
    Quote Originally Posted by dookar View Post
    Didn't they spend something like 9million telling us all that?



    https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...arge_print.pdf
    So when yve taken a decision in your private life that you know was bad havent you thought Id like to change that and I can and I will. Brexit to me seems the most obvious example of a nation cutting off its nose to spite its face. It was a romantic decision with no thought for the economics because the rw press told people to ignore the warnings.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  9. #39  
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    21,598
    Quote Originally Posted by ghyllred View Post
    So when yve taken a decision in your private life that you know was bad havent you thought Id like to change that and I can and I will. Brexit to me seems the most obvious example of a nation cutting off its nose to spite its face. It was a romantic decision with no thought for the economics because the rw press told people to ignore the warnings.
    Firstly, I don't believe it to be a bad decision. I believe it to be a very good one.

    Secondly, based on the evidence on this forum, it was only we leavers who knew about our obligations regarding reste a liquider, for example, so it would seem we gave more thought to the economics than did your lot
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  10. #40  
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    21,598
    And what does that have to do with your blatant lie that we were not told it would be our decision?
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  11. #41  
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    844
    Quote Originally Posted by WirralRiddler View Post
    I seriously doubt either care too much about what you think of them, and rightly so too. The word pompous sums you up mate, to a tee.
    well said mate. just waiting for his comparison to the great Spanish economy...
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  12. #42  
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    844
    Quote Originally Posted by Anubis View Post
    Well its quite clear, even the norwegians dont have a deal as good as the uk inside the eu.
    So you cant expect to get a better deal then them when you leave, or else they would want the same.
    And what about the swiss?
    And when are Norway even relevant in world relations?
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  13. #43  
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    8,408
    Quote Originally Posted by dookar View Post
    Firstly, I don't believe it to be a bad decision. I believe it to be a very good one.

    Secondly, based on the evidence on this forum, it was only we leavers who knew about our obligations regarding reste a liquider, for example, so it would seem we gave more thought to the economics than did your lot
    This would be the same as how much debt and liabilities Scotland takes with it if the UK breaks up. I think we knew there'd be something. That just adds weight to the economic argument not to leave. We also thought about the lack of skills and resources to undertake a split and the lack of direction that was being offered post split. And the impact that uncertainty and additional debt would have on the nations economic prospects.

    I totally accept that you probably took all this into account as well. Which begs the questions; How much were you prepared for the nation to pay, to achieve a soft exit with businesses still able to hire whoever and how many they want, whilst maintaing austerity to deal with debt. When do you think we will get a return on that investment?
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  14. #44  
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    13,274
    Quote Originally Posted by Luises-Finger View Post
    Why did the establishment allow us to have a referendum at all?
    Wasnt the government it was Ukip and the press and Cameron knelt before them and said when do you want it? As Murdoch said "when I went into Downing St they did what i asked but when i went to Brussels they took no notice".
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  15. #45  
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    24,396
    So the predictable challenges are happening, shame some of the players involved are such ****'s but the principle stands and of course if we made our decisions on association only, then only a loon or far right winger would have voted leave, supporting the likes of Farage and Boris Johnson (who continue to antagonize the very people we are supposed to be negotiating with) which is just not the case.

    Interesting read that from that hippy latte sipping lefty rag:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...in-politicians
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  16. #46  
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    25,742
    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    So the predictable challenges are happening, shame some of the players involved are such ****'s but the principle stands and of course if we made our decisions on association only, then only a loon or far right winger would have voted leave, supporting the likes of Farage and Boris Johnson (who continue to antagonize the very people we are supposed to be negotiating with) which is just not the case.

    Interesting read that from that hippy latte sipping lefty rag:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...in-politicians
    Thats a right mottley crew in the remain camp

    Major and Blair - with Clegg, Mandelson, Farron and Umunna
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  17. #47  
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    24,396
    Quote Originally Posted by Mysteron View Post
    Thats a right mottley crew in the remain camp

    Major and Blair - with Clegg, Mandelson, Farron and Umunna
    Its like a game of Top Trumps where the cards are all smeared in filthy finger prints

    Major, Blair vs Johnson, Farage
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  18. #48  
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    25,742
    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    Its like a game of Top Trumps where the cards are all smeared in filthy finger prints

    Major, Blair vs Johnson, Farage
    Scary stuff - even more scary - I don't see us leaving Europe..... It will be a parliamentary vote and those guys are just to corrupt to do the right thing
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  19. #49  
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    8,408
    Quote Originally Posted by ghyllred View Post
    Wasnt the government it was Ukip and the press and Cameron knelt before them and said when do you want it? As Murdoch said "when I went into Downing St they did what i asked but when i went to Brussels they took no notice".
    The point is really for Coach and his well argued point, that we are being finessed out of hard exit and ideally back in to Europe. If they have all this power, ability and control to manipulate our every decision, why did they give us a choice in the first place?
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  20. #50  
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    8,408
    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    So the predictable challenges are happening, shame some of the players involved are such ****'s but the principle stands and of course if we made our decisions on association only, then only a loon or far right winger would have voted leave, supporting the likes of Farage and Boris Johnson (who continue to antagonize the very people we are supposed to be negotiating with) which is just not the case.

    Interesting read that from that hippy latte sipping lefty rag:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...in-politicians
    The only second referendum we should have is if we prioritise a hard brexit or not. Oddly enough, having voted remain, I now find myself having to say we do the full monty. Despite the financial hardship that is likely to follow, I think we're wasting time prioritising Europe. Time to talk to them is when they change there feelings about open boarders. (even though the issue is really austerity)

    People voted. Decisions have consequences. But we are honour bound to act to support that decision. The only time it should change is if there is clear undeniable proof that enough Brexiters have changed their mind.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  21. #51  
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    24,396
    Quote Originally Posted by Luises-Finger View Post
    The only second referendum we should have is if we prioritise a hard brexit or not. Oddly enough, having voted remain, I now find myself having to say we do the full monty. Despite the financial hardship that is likely to follow, I think we're wasting time prioritising Europe. Time to talk to them is when they change there feelings about open boarders. (even though the issue is really austerity)

    People voted. Decisions have consequences. But we are honour bound to act to support that decision. The only time it should change is if there is clear undeniable proof that enough Brexiters have changed their mind.
    Yes I can see what you are saying though if we leaving on principle alone and because of an original flawed vote, I doubt that is democratic and worth pursuing on pride alone which seems to be a big argument for the leave side of things, the people have spoken has become a slightly default lazy line when it was such a narrow split and we've seen what a poor basis the people were given to vote on.

    As you say, if we do go with the original vote, we have to at least have a say as voters on the terms, the very basic terms we voted on (or should have voted on) need to be clear, like you say hard or soft exit though clearly, at least to my mind, the so called hard exit is a nonsense, unworkable.

    The EU Immigration policy is problematic and the lack of consistency they apply on this across various countries is apparent, but again I'd rather we were part of that set up and influencing it best we can as opposed to walking away entirely and going solo with little to no tools.

    All very complicated, no easy answer as well know
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  22. #52  
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    7,422
    no more referendums.............brexit meant brexit. we were asked yes or no.......not soft or hard.

    leaving something means leaving. we tried to negotiate with the eu when Cameron went to them cap in hand last year...wanting a better deal. the eu just looked down on us like we were pathetic crybabies..

    we need to be strong and tell them we are OUT.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  23. #53  
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    25,742
    Quote Originally Posted by seasonedtraveller View Post
    no more referendums.............brexit meant brexit. we were asked yes or no.......not soft or hard.

    leaving something means leaving. we tried to negotiate with the eu when Cameron went to them cap in hand last year...wanting a better deal. the eu just looked down on us like we were pathetic crybabies..

    we need to be strong and tell them we are OUT.
    I wish it was that simple - I see the politicians and the remain camp messing it up with their tantrum attacks
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  24. #54  
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    7,422
    Quote Originally Posted by Mysteron View Post
    I wish it was that simple - I see the politicians and the remain camp messing it up with their tantrum attacks
    everyone was led to believe it would be simple. yes or no was the question. now we have remainers trying their best to put a spanner in the works just because they lost.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  25. #55  
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    13,274
    Quote Originally Posted by seasonedtraveller View Post
    no more referendums.............brexit meant brexit. we were asked yes or no.......not soft or hard.

    leaving something means leaving. we tried to negotiate with the eu when Cameron went to them cap in hand last year...wanting a better deal. the eu just looked down on us like we were pathetic crybabies..

    we need to be strong and tell them we are OUT.
    Absolutely ST. Tell them we're Brits and voted out . I think the comment that Brexit negotiations or the referendum vote was "like a house swap where you dont get to see the other house till swap is done" should be given short shrift.
    Brexit means Brexit!
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  26. #56  
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    8,408
    Quote Originally Posted by seasonedtraveller View Post
    everyone was led to believe it would be simple. yes or no was the question. now we have remainers trying their best to put a spanner in the works just because they lost.
    FYI: Hard exit is full fat Brexit. FU EU and all that. Also from what I've seen so far there's no way it'll be anything else. They don't want to negotiate.

    So don't worry. all is as it should be, provided actual Brexiters don't change their mind.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  27. #57  
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    8,408
    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    Yes I can see what you are saying though if we leaving on principle alone and because of an original flawed vote, I doubt that is democratic and worth pursuing on pride alone which seems to be a big argument for the leave side of things, the people have spoken has become a slightly default lazy line when it was such a narrow split and we've seen what a poor basis the people were given to vote on.

    As you say, if we do go with the original vote, we have to at least have a say as voters on the terms, the very basic terms we voted on (or should have voted on) need to be clear, like you say hard or soft exit though clearly, at least to my mind, the so called hard exit is a nonsense, unworkable.

    The EU Immigration policy is problematic and the lack of consistency they apply on this across various countries is apparent, but again I'd rather we were part of that set up and influencing it best we can as opposed to walking away entirely and going solo with little to no tools.

    All very complicated, no easy answer as well know
    Don't see how the vote was flawed. Both sides got the space to make their case. Remain camp got their tactics wrong. Pee'd off too many people in the austerity years. Paid the price on referendum day.

    I'm choosing to honour the vote, despite the fact I think it's a massive mistake. Totally get people looking to avoid the problems this will cause. But basically it can't be done without undermining the original vote. For me, that's not right.

    As you say. All very complicated. I've a feeling though, that the EU will not want us back. That'll simplify matters.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  28. #58  
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    24,396
    Quote Originally Posted by Luises-Finger View Post
    Don't see how the vote was flawed. Both sides got the space to make their case. Remain camp got their tactics wrong. Pee'd off too many people in the austerity years. Paid the price on referendum day.

    I'm choosing to honour the vote, despite the fact I think it's a massive mistake. Totally get people looking to avoid the problems this will cause. But basically it can't be done without undermining the original vote. For me, that's not right.

    As you say. All very complicated. I've a feeling though, that the EU will not want us back. That'll simplify matters.
    I think its flawed in the lack of reality presented, what leaving actually entails, the moment a reality isn't presented & voters are exploited to such a large degree, then for me it can be revisited or reviewed.

    I don't personally buy this vote was forever binding or revisiting goes against democracy, if something so big is such a mess with long reaching consequences either way, its sensible to know more & decide under what basis we are leaving, not carry on headstrong & blindly...purely out of misplaced principle in my view.

    But your last point is also true, so all this may be academic anyway!
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  29. #59  
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    25,742
    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    I think its flawed in the lack of reality presented, what leaving actually entails, the moment a reality isn't presented & voters are exploited to such a large degree, then for me it can be revisited or reviewed.

    I don't personally buy this vote was forever binding or revisiting goes against democracy, if something so big is such a mess with long reaching consequences either way, its sensible to know more & decide under what basis we are leaving, not carry on headstrong & blindly...purely out of misplaced principle in my view.

    But your last point is also true, so all this may be academic anyway!
    Agree it was a flawed referendum - just look at the last 4 months -
    The aim or goal was not clear
    The journey was not clear
    The campaigns had no element of truth attached on either side
    Responsibility was fudged, all those that lead in the campaign, have disappeared in real time.....
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  30. #60  
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    24,396
    Quote Originally Posted by Mysteron View Post
    Agree it was a flawed referendum - just look at the last 4 months -
    The aim or goal was not clear
    The journey was not clear
    The campaigns had no element of truth attached on either side
    Responsibility was fudged, all those that lead in the campaign, have disappeared in real time.....
    That's nicely summed up, in short covered it.

    Agree, its seems a very poor basis when you consider just those elements, to continue down this path on principle alone.

    I think lots said it, but it seems this whole referendum was a result of the Government and the Tory party's in house fighting, so if we've been mugged then we have to revisit the terms, maybe even the referendum itself.

    Coach suggested looking to the future and beyond ourselves and for me that is not an acceptance of this sham, but to revisit that sham and make it far more manageable for our futures and beyond....if we still can that is
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   



Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •