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Thread: More Tea Please, Brexit and the Stiff Upper Lip 2

  1. #3001  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luises-Finger View Post
    The powers are not being returned to parliament - the pre Maastricht status quo. The government are holding on to them. Parliament traded them off originally anyway.

    Some of those powers taken back might have a big impact on me. If I and others owned them, We'd be in more control of how that power could be used. A democratic system. If parliament own them, I depend on my MP representing my needs and other constituents needs. A quasi democratic system. If government own them, there are a number of groups the government need to represent. They might decide my interests are subordinate. A non-democratic system. Those powers in the EU move them even further away and technically involve more competing groups. So taking them back brings them closer. Yes. But that 'closer' is still some distance too great to be of real use to me. The government will use them as they see fit. Trade them off to the yanks perhaps.

    It seems I got to choose who screws me over and that's it. And what's more, probably pay heavily through the nose for that privilege.

    The flexit leave paper, promoted the idea of sovereignty residing with the people. Parliament would have to seek permission of the populace before they could trade it off for a bag of magic beans.

    Given the way things are shaping up, 15 months on, what is the peoples likely tangible benefit in leaving the EU and taking back control of our sovereignty, borders and economy? Where's our win? The spoils of the leavers victory? Is that benefit guaranteed at some point in the future? Or is it just a possibility? What odds have we got that we'll get it?
    THE big upshot of Brexit and i concede the sovereignty issue is big, is that if we leave the Single Market (the biggest free trade block in the world) and the Customs Union most Britons will be poorer. Is that what 52% voted for? i think not. Meanwhile the Boris johnsons, Nigel Farages, Liam foxs of this world, their puppet masters in the press, many hedge fund managers and spivs in the city of London (and not all in the city of london is a spiv) will be richer. Businesses like Dyson will be free to do what they like with employees, pay them what they like etc, etc; Welcome to serfdom Britons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DantesShadow View Post
    I don't know why you think it is all about FOM. A lot of remainers don't support FOM, and a portion of leave voters do support it.

    I don't support FOM but I support immigration - I just think it should be offered world-wide equally.
    I dont think that. But i do know a lot of leave voters voted leave because of it.
    Im a firm supporter of staying in Single Market and Customs Union because if we leave them the damage to our economy will be enormous.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghyllred View Post
    I dont think that. But i do know a lot of leave voters voted leave because of it.
    Im a firm supporter of staying in Single Market and Customs Union because if we leave them the damage to our economy will be enormous.
    Do you literally change your point post by post?
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  4. #3004  
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    Quote Originally Posted by DantesShadow View Post
    You know, it would be nice if discussions started focussing on how we can mitigate the negatives and explore positives now and what we might do with returned powers, be it labour or tory gov. Including our future relationship with the EU and how to prevent dangers like fringe elements. Obviously people can discuss what they want but this bickering and name calling is getting incredibly boring. I think i'm out of this thread for now as no good comes from it.
    Yeah, sorry for my part in that, just some of this stuff winds me up
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghyllred View Post
    I dont think that. But i do know a lot of leave voters voted leave because of it.
    Im a firm supporter of staying in Single Market and Customs Union because if we leave them the damage to our economy will be enormous.
    I keep asking you and you keep ignoring the question - how do we leave the EU and stay in the CU?
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    Quote Originally Posted by dookar View Post
    I keep asking you and you keep ignoring the question - how do we leave the EU and stay in the CU?
    What a stupid thing to say, how has Turkey managed to be in the customs unions without being in the EU?
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  7. #3007  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alon1 View Post
    What a stupid thing to say, how has Turkey managed to be in the customs unions without being in the EU?
    We were talking about this a few pages back, they have an agreement with the customs union and its weighted quite heavily in the favour of the EU (no idea why Turkey agreed to it considering the negatives). Definitely not a template we should be looking at. Theres talk that we should join in the EFTA again although some of the countries already in there don't seem too keen according to some reports from a few weeks ago, not sure if that feeling has softened at all yet.
    Eat. Sleep. Rave. Repeat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eloader View Post
    We were talking about this a few pages back, they have an agreement with the customs union and its weighted quite heavily in the favour of the EU (no idea why Turkey agreed to it considering the negatives). Definitely not a template we should be looking at. Theres talk that we should join in the EFTA again although some of the countries already in there don't seem too keen according to some reports from a few weeks ago, not sure if that feeling has softened at all yet.
    Probably wise to get one's facts straight before calling others stupid

    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so...qRfm9lY099xnXw
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    Quote Originally Posted by dookar View Post
    I keep asking you and you keep ignoring the question - how do we leave the EU and stay in the CU?
    By accepting the rules and regs of the club. I dont quite know the terms for staying in CU but for the Single Market its freedom of movement. It seems the rabid Brexiters want access without paying for it. Rather like resigning yr membership of a snooker club and still wanting to use the tables. If we leave both we are well and truly screwed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dookar View Post
    Yeah, sorry for my part in that, just some of this stuff winds me up
    No worries, me too. I was actually supporting you expressing a new thought for this thread regarding how we can shift power away from government/parliament in some way after powers come back to the UK from the EU. I don't know if it is the right or wrong thing to do, but i have not thought about that beyond wondering how MPs will cope with the increased workload!

    But there is an attraction to keep (replace) aspects of long term planning that the EU can provide so that we are not hostage to electorate bribes and constant reorganisations. To make best use of any flexibility being a 'smaller group of countries' provides.
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  11. #3011  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dookar View Post
    Yeah, sorry for my part in that, just some of this stuff winds me up
    no probs dookar. Im guilty myself. Good to have debate though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DantesShadow View Post
    No worries, me too. I was actually supporting you expressing a new thought for this thread regarding how we can shift power away from government/parliament in some way after powers come back to the UK from the EU. I don't know if it is the right or wrong thing to do, but i have not thought about that beyond wondering how MPs will cope with the increased workload!

    But there is an attraction to keep (replace) aspects of long term planning that the EU can provide so that we are not hostage to electorate bribes and constant reorganisations. To make best use of any flexibility being a 'smaller group of countries' provides.
    They'll have to quit their second jobs and the extra consultancy work

    I forget the guy now, but he is an MP and a referee, got paid a fair whack for officiating a Europa League qualifier a few months back.

    The whole debate on MP's second jobs went out the window for me with this guy, I was more impressed he could pick a second job making him as unpopular as his first, if not more so.

    Traffic Warden must be next on his bucket list
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    A post placed on Guardian's website. Says it all for me and totally agree with it:

    So we are losing our citizens rights as EU citizens and the offer to EU citizens here falls short of the EU offer. We have the most nasty right wing Cabinet in power who are already squeezing the poor till the pips squeak and who have signed up to the DUP bung and fixed the committee structure. Some freedom , some democracy. Would not be so bad if they had some level of competence. NI peace at risk
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghyllred View Post
    By accepting the rules and regs of the club. I dont quite know the terms for staying in CU
    Being in the EU. The customs union is given legitimacy and legal force by the Treaty of Rome, if we're not signatories to that treaty we can't be in the customs union.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DantesShadow View Post
    No worries, me too. I was actually supporting you expressing a new thought for this thread regarding how we can shift power away from government/parliament in some way after powers come back to the UK from the EU. I don't know if it is the right or wrong thing to do, but i have not thought about that beyond wondering how MPs will cope with the increased workload!
    I'd like them to have a very much decreased workload. Devolve power to the regions/counties/ancient kingdoms/whatever, give them full tax collection/law making etc authority
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  16. #3016  
    GrottonRed is online now LFC Forums Moderator
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    we'll need a new thread soon...100 pages now.

    Maybe worth someone doing one once May opens her gob tomorrow.
    Life President of TEPS...The Ellipsis Preservation Society.
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  17. #3017  
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    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    They'll have to quit their second jobs and the extra consultancy work

    I forget the guy now, but he is an MP and a referee, got paid a fair whack for officiating a Europa League qualifier a few months back.

    The whole debate on MP's second jobs went out the window for me with this guy, I was more impressed he could pick a second job making him as unpopular as his first, if not more so.

    Traffic Warden must be next on his bucket list
    There are also those who need to keep working a minimum number of hours/days per given time period so they can retain their license and return to that profession if they decide to step down/sacked by their constituents.
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  18. #3018  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eloader View Post
    We were talking about this a few pages back, they have an agreement with the customs union and its weighted quite heavily in the favour of the EU (no idea why Turkey agreed to it considering the negatives). Definitely not a template we should be looking at. Theres talk that we should join in the EFTA again although some of the countries already in there don't seem too keen according to some reports from a few weeks ago, not sure if that feeling has softened at all yet.
    It is hardly surprising that these countries don't want the UK to join, they have a relatively straight forward relationship with the EU and the last thing the they need is the aggro of the UK joining the group.
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    Quote Originally Posted by trinired View Post
    i thought this read was spot on with the tories and how gthey see themselves

    https://nolanjazimreg.wordpress.com/...xit-deception/
    Nice one. An interesting read. Bit slanted in places but the facts and the timings seem to stand up. More wood for the bonfire.
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  20. #3020  
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    Quote Originally Posted by DantesShadow View Post
    National sovereignty is not the same as personal freedom. I already addressed the henry VIII clauses.

    Bottom line, there are no guarantees, but that applies if we stayed. If you have little trust in UK democracy or governance here changing, then the EU will seem great as it takes that decision and responsibility away indefinitely. I believe the people of the UK are more than capable of making decisions that are in their own best interests so that does not worry me, and I would choose to keep the power with the populace every time, and be able to influence direction at a minimum every 4 years (maybe my family history from countries not so free means I know what a privilege it is - and singularly more important to individual welfare and freedom than any multilateral system - people rightly deride Trump's speech at the UN but he was right when he said the welfare of its people is a nations first duty). We have minimal votes in the EU to enforce change, but we have 100% (ignoring the lords) here to do so. At worst after we leave we have 2 years of conservative and if they do a bad job we can vote someone else in. We can demand changes to the way parliament runs as people focus more on the UK and not the EU bogeyman.

    There are good reasons to stay in the EU, and better reasons to vote remain (timings and UK situation) but sovereignty and self determination is not one of them.
    Whilst I essentially agree with most of that, at least the intent, I find trouble identifying what specific disadvantage I felt as a result of aspects of my sovereignty being run by the EU. Nor do I remember any significant change when they began to take it over. Consequently I ask would that be any different with the UK taking it back.

    It all seems a lot of trouble we've undertaken for no real sensation of change. I'll admit a degree of ignorance. It'd be good if the government could declare how our regained sovereignty is tangibly going to benefit us.
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  21. #3021  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luises-Finger View Post
    Whilst I essentially agree with most of that, at least the intent, I find trouble identifying what specific disadvantage I felt as a result of aspects of my sovereignty being run by the EU. Nor do I remember any significant change when they began to take it over. Consequently I ask would that be any different with the UK taking it back.

    It all seems a lot of trouble we've undertaken for no real sensation of change. I'll admit a degree of ignorance. It'd be good if the government could declare how our regained sovereignty is tangibly going to benefit us.
    I'm still waiting to find that out, its a line used a lot or mentioned an awful lot, but 'our lack of sovereignty under the EU' has never felt like a disadvantage and I see no advantage because I've been informed of none to date, of it being 'taken back.'
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  22. #3022  
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    Quote Originally Posted by DantesShadow View Post
    Do you literally change your point post by post?
    Eh. What way have i done that?
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  23. #3023  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luises-Finger View Post
    Whilst I essentially agree with most of that, at least the intent, I find trouble identifying what specific disadvantage I felt as a result of aspects of my sovereignty being run by the EU. Nor do I remember any significant change when they began to take it over. Consequently I ask would that be any different with the UK taking it back.

    It all seems a lot of trouble we've undertaken for no real sensation of change. I'll admit a degree of ignorance. It'd be good if the government could declare how our regained sovereignty is tangibly going to benefit us.


    exactly. I cant see how it will benefit the ordinary Joe or Jane on the street. It seems like its a case of the old empire/little Englanders have got hold of the reins.

    We have made 3 horrendous foreign policy decisions since WW2.
    1. Suez: We mistakenly believed the world all turned to us and we were still powerful
    2. Iraq: in many ways a similar thought process. Thinking that by crawling to the US would make us somehow seem a powerful nation
    3. Brexit: the same thought processes are going on here. a referendum vote under-pinned by Ukip the tail wagging Cameron's govt and the rw press bringing out all the EU is terrible/foreign people are terrible nonsense you can think of to ensure the riff raff voted the right way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dookar View Post
    Being in the EU. The customs union is given legitimacy and legal force by the Treaty of Rome, if we're not signatories to that treaty we can't be in the customs union.
    Cheers.
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  25. #3025  
    GrottonRed is online now LFC Forums Moderator
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    New thread open
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