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Thread: More Tea Please, Brexit and the Stiff Upper Lip 2

  1. #1231  
    shody1976 is online now First team regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by scousechrisj View Post
    Explain to me how this is a very different issue?

    - Both are decisions are about the separation of two bodies, binded by geography, economic and political inter-dependencies, through the drive for nationalistic independence.
    - Both decisions are inter-related, given the make up of the UK (both geographically economically) will have been a contributing factor to the other (would UK voters have wanted a Scotland-less UK to leave the EU; would Scottish voters have wanted a EU-less UK union).

    So it is very much a similar and actually, related topic of conversation. So it is certainly not time to stop moaning and get on with things if such hypocrisy is about to take place.
    The Union is an agreement that has been in place for over 300 years. It is also a matter concerning the independence of a sovereign nation state. The Scots would have to develop their own currency, financial instruments, welfare state, Defence forces and strategy and also create a border with England. The situation of the UK leaving the EU is nothing like this.
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  2. #1232  
    GrottonRed is online now LFC Forums Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by shody1976 View Post
    Yes I have - was supposed to quote ghyllred. My apologies.
    I've edited the post for you.
    Life President of TEPS...The Ellipsis Preservation Society.
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  3. #1233  
    shody1976 is online now First team regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrottonRed View Post
    I've edited the post for you.
    Thanks mate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WirralRiddler View Post
    I highly doubt that, tbh. Only one way to find out i suppose but then we'd have to have a 3rd one just to make sure, then maybe best of 5 etc etc
    The same could be said of the Scottish referendum, which is my point.

    But in terms of highly doubting it, I believe you are wrong.
    I'm the normal one.
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  5. #1235  
    shody1976 is online now First team regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    That in itself is a ridiculously boring post

    You could just copy and paste that for every single comment that you don't like on this topic
    Instead of whinging about the Brexit result and going on about 2nd referendums that are never going to happen, why not instead start discussing what Britain could look like in the post Brexit world, what potential trade deals could be open to us and what leverage we currently have to ensure that we get the best possible deal for Britain?

    Personally, I would rather delay the triggering of Article 50 until we have at least agreed a trade deal with the American and have the broad outline of potential deals with China, India and the larger commonwealth countries like Canada and Australia. The more cards we have to play, the better the opportunity to get a good deal from the rest of Europe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shody1976 View Post
    The Union is an agreement that has been in place for over 300 years. It is also a matter concerning the independence of a sovereign nation state. The Scots would have to develop their own currency, financial instruments, welfare state, Defence forces and strategy and also create a border with England. The situation of the UK leaving the EU is nothing like this.
    Both matters although different in a number of ways, the decision process of the voting population and the fact that both have been referendums are where the similarities are. The openness of being able to double back on one referendum and not the other is where my point lies.
    I'm the normal one.
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  7. #1237  
    shody1976 is online now First team regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by scousechrisj View Post
    Both matters although different in a number of ways, the decision process of the voting population and the fact that both have been referendums are where the similarities are. The openness of being able to double back on one referendum and not the other is where my point lies.
    When a country could potentially become an sovereign nation state again, I would say that another referendum is entirely plausible. Brexit is simply about the UK leaving an economic bloc that was established as a loose trading agreement 40 years ago. We're not talking about a 300 year old agreement here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shody1976 View Post
    Instead of whinging about the Brexit result and going on about 2nd referendums that are never going to happen, why not instead start discussing what Britain could look like in the post Brexit world, what potential trade deals could be open to us and what leverage we currently have to ensure that we get the best possible deal for Britain?

    Personally, I would rather delay the triggering of Article 50 until we have at least agreed a trade deal with the American and have the broad outline of potential deals with China, India and the larger commonwealth countries like Canada and Australia. The more cards we have to play, the better the opportunity to get a good deal from the rest of Europe.
    I like the ideal but if the Government can't dream that up and leave voters can't either, then our imagination will be stretched in this regard, which is why some hark back to the referendum in the first place, including myself at times

    Totally agree on the second part, I think we need a lot more cards but the obvious worry is May and her slightly insane team
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  9. #1239  
    GrottonRed is online now LFC Forums Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    I like the ideal but if the Government can't dream that up and leave voters can't either, then our imagination will be stretched in this regard, which is why some hark back to the referendum in the first place, including myself at times

    Totally agree on the second part, I think we need a lot more cards but the obvious worry is May and her slightly insane team
    It is time to get on with things now.

    I'm guessing we are delaying triggering article 50 until after the 60 year celebrations that the EU have planned for the 25th.

    Maybe they requested that at the EU summit last Friday.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarknessIsCalling View Post
    I find an analogy of Brexit being like a car crash amusing considering we're nearer the anniversary of the vote than we are actually even initiating negotations for said exit..........

    This is more like the sinking of a certain vessel that I read in the past 24 hours is being "eaten away"

    I realised pretty much on the eve of the referendum that it was the right thing to do (leave the EU) but the incompetence of the people in charge of it that would make it go pear shaped
    But thats what i mean. The race to exit, the race to start the exit is like someone is at the wheel of a car determined to crash ie get the worst possible agreement (or none as Boris seems to be saying he'#d be happy with). Please dont tell me anything which could ease this crash or even make it far more manageable. Just let me crash. This is Theresa May.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dookar View Post
    You're becoming a ridiculous self parody. And actual you were pretty ridiculous on this subject already
    Oh dear Dookar, the analogy has passed you by? Ive been told by leavers as well as remainers that its rather a good analogy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shody1976 View Post
    Scotland should be allowed a 2nd referendum, but independence for The Scots is a very different issue from Brexit. There's no way that there should be another referendum on the EU, nor will there be. Time to stop moaning and get on with things.
    Give me the keys quick. Let me have the car I want to crash it!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghyllred View Post
    Oh dear Dookar, the analogy has passed you by? Ive been told by leavers as well as remainers that its rather a good analogy.
    No. I get the analogy, you're just not very good at making it.

    I've stated before I admire Richard North - http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86347 - it's an analogy he's made himself. And more - http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86348
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrottonRed View Post
    It is time to get on with things now.

    I'm guessing we are delaying triggering article 50 until after the 60 year celebrations that the EU have planned for the 25th.

    Maybe they requested that at the EU summit last Friday.
    Yep

    Its time for May to get smart, starting with the EU nationals issue, she is stupid beyond measure here and is missing a major trick.

    We all know that she'll have to and should concede on the EU nationals here in the UK, the EU will have to do the same with our migrants living and working abroad, so what better way to handle it than announce now that she intends to protect and maintain our EU nationals/citizens.

    This will allow her to take a moral high ground, force the EU in to doing the same or look morally weak, thus opening up a better platform for negotiations and giving the UK some actual real strength at the table, not just weak posturing.
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  15. #1245  
    GrottonRed is online now LFC Forums Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    Yep

    Its time for May to get smart, starting with the EU nationals issue, she is stupid beyond measure here and is missing a major trick.

    We all know that she'll have to and should concede on the EU nationals here in the UK, the EU will have to do the same with our migrants living and working abroad, so what better way to handle it than announce now that she intends to protect and maintain our EU nationals/citizens.

    This will allow her to take a moral high ground, force the EU in to doing the same or look morally weak, thus opening up a better platform for negotiations and giving the UK some actual real strength at the table, not just weak posturing.
    I reckon the EU nationals will mentioned in the article 50 letter...or in the statement that goes with it.

    There has been a lot of hot air over this, but I've always thought it was best to deal with this at the time of triggering.

    The Lords amendment didn't promise anything except to aim to bring proposals forward within 3 months to deal with it...

    It is the number one priority...but it needs to be done properly, in agreement with the EU.

    It's far from straightforward as we have many living here who are not 100% "legal" due to the lack of insurance...and they need to be able to stay imo.

    There is also the prison situation to sort out.

    Better to wait and make it crystal clear, than to promise things that end up not being the actual reality of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrottonRed View Post
    I reckon the EU nationals will mentioned in the article 50 letter...or in the statement that goes with it.

    There has been a lot of hot air over this, but I've always thought it was best to deal with this at the time of triggering.

    The Lords amendment didn't promise anything except to aim to bring proposals forward within 3 months to deal with it...

    It is the number one priority...but it needs to be done properly, in agreement with the EU.

    It's far from straightforward as we have many living here who are not 100% "legal" due to the lack of insurance...and they need to be able to stay imo.

    There is also the prison situation to sort out.

    Better to wait and make it crystal clear, than to promise things that end up not being the actual reality of it.
    For me its forcing the EU's hand though, it has to be done in reality and isn't that complicated I don't think, everyone knows it will get done so get in there first, on the front foot, as so many are keen to point out its happening etc so lets do it on the front foot, be the compassionate caring country that forced the mean old EU into following the UK's lead on immigration.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrottonRed View Post
    You don't see the difference between being part of a trade group and the Union of England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales?

    If Scotland's votes had tipped the balance to leave...then you may have had a point.

    But without Scotland, the leave percentage is significantly higher.
    Both are about sovereignty. simple as. Or have I missed something?
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    it still beggars belief that we would knowingly and intentionally cut ourselves off from our biggest market (by leaving the single market/customs union). Ask business people, ask financial people from the city of london..its truly madness. My daughter's boyfriend works for a big bank in the city. They are being told all bets are off about their futures. This would not be the case if we stayed in customs union/single market. But never mind the architects of this madness (the rw press/Farage/Johnson/May/Fox etc) will be ok. Theyve no need for jobs, theyve no need to use public services. Take back control and give it to these people is laughable if it werent so serious.
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  19. #1249  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghyllred View Post
    it still beggars belief that we would knowingly and intentionally cut ourselves off from our biggest market (by leaving the single market/customs union). Ask business people, ask financial people from the city of london..its truly madness. My daughter's boyfriend works for a big bank in the city. They are being told all bets are off about their futures. This would not be the case if we stayed in customs union/single market. But never mind the architects of this madness (the rw press/Farage/Johnson/May/Fox etc) will be ok. Theyve no need for jobs, theyve no need to use public services. Take back control and give it to these people is laughable if it werent so serious.
    Since when were they the bastions of good judgement, integrity and quality of life for all people? It is the actual people who should ask...and guess what, we did.

    As for the city - I am here and many friends work in the banks - they already say they aint going anywhere - they will refuse. So some jobs will go, but lets not pretend it will end. Those jobs certainly won't go to europe but instead to the Far East or NYC if anywhere.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luises-Finger View Post
    Both are about sovereignty. simple as. Or have I missed something?
    I think you missed something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DantesShadow View Post
    I think you missed something.
    What did I miss then?


    EDIT: Nothing it seems.
    Last edited by Luises-Finger; 20-3-17 at 22:26.
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    So Article 50 to be triggered on....................

    March 29th
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  23. #1253  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mysteron View Post
    So Article 50 to be triggered on....................

    March 29th
    Thank **** May is on it for us all
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mysteron View Post
    So Article 50 to be triggered on....................

    March 29th
    Maybe now we can have more substantive discussions. Even the criticism will be more relevant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DantesShadow View Post
    Maybe now we can have more substantive discussions. Even the criticism will be more relevant.
    The only standout discussion is

    We have adverted the sinking of the British Isles, through elbowing the red tape of Brussels

    Is the Country salvageable enough to float the stormy waters now, or is it a little boy lost hanging on to the shirttails of others
    Last edited by Mysteron; 20-3-17 at 17:52.
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  26. #1256  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mysteron View Post
    The only standout discussion is

    We have adverted the sinking of the British Isles, through elbowing the red tape of Brussels

    Is the Country salvageable enough to float the stormy waters now, or is it a little boy lost hanging on to the shirttails of others
    Nice

    Is it a clown juggling across a minefield
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    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    Nice

    Is it a clown juggling across a minefield
    Well the life vests are millstones round our necks

    3 of them to sort out

    Benefits
    Austerity
    The Antiquated Model in current use thats not fit for purpose and the next decade
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  28. #1258  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mysteron View Post
    Well the life vests are millstones round our necks

    3 of them to sort out

    Benefits
    Austerity
    The Antiquated Model in current use thats not fit for purpose and the next decade
    Not a bad start.

    For me it's the austerity. Or rather the debt that underpins it.

    Ultimately the markets don't care about us, the EU or any of that political razzle dazzle. They only care about the trade deals. EU, RoW, doesn't matter. So long as they think our debt repayments can be met it'll all work out. For them. If they start to doubt that, the price of brexit will increase. Could get really ugly.

    Whatever the price there's only one lot going to pay it. Courtesy of the antiquated model.
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    Tory Parliamentarians are unhappy with the BBC again, don't feel its being neutral enough in its coverage and focuses too much on leave voters with regret etc

    Article from The Guardian, but covered elsewhere, what I find bizarre is the lack of examples they site in their letter and why protest like that, does them more harm than good. Seems we have hints of Trumps 'fake news' at play again here which is really of course stamping out things we don't want to hear.

    Anyways, here it is:

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...al-over-brexit
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  30. #1260  
    GrottonRed is online now LFC Forums Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    Tory Parliamentarians are unhappy with the BBC again, don't feel its being neutral enough in its coverage and focuses too much on leave voters with regret etc

    Article from The Guardian, but covered elsewhere, what I find bizarre is the lack of examples they site in their letter and why protest like that, does them more harm than good. Seems we have hints of Trumps 'fake news' at play again here which is really of course stamping out things we don't want to hear.

    Anyways, here it is:

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...al-over-brexit
    I think they've been fair since the vote.

    They did, to me, take a position prior to the vote...as they did...and still do...over Trump.

    It wasn't bias as such...just a natural swing toward the politics of the people who edit their news programs...basic human nature.

    They were certainly guilty of not taking the possibility of a leave vote or Trump win, seriously.

    The letter is ridiculous, however, and there is no justification for it.

    But it doesn't do any harm to remind the BBC about it's need to stay impartial...because if it does lose that perception...it will also lose the license fee money.
    Life President of TEPS...The Ellipsis Preservation Society.
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