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Thread: The Jordan Henderson Debate MK2

  1. #31  
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    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    On current form he's blatantly a superior player to Can at the moment, better on the ball, quicker to release it, positioning is better with and without the ball etc.

    No brainer Henderson plays when fit again, Can really at present is no better than last season really though a run of games may help

    Quote Originally Posted by Acumen View Post
    I'm not sure about this.
    Can is better at carrying the ball forward and holding the ball up using his strength.

    Their shooting seems to be similar, although when played further forward Hendo does get goals too.

    Hendo is better at passing, short and long.
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  2. #32  
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Monk- View Post
    Can is better at carrying the ball forward and holding the ball up using his strength.

    Their shooting seems to be similar, although when played further forward Hendo does get goals too.

    Hendo is better at passing, short and long.
    I think it was Henderson's shooting last season which prompted Klopp to play him deeper. He's got decent technique striking the ball, but does miss some decent opportunities. I think Klopp got it pretty right when he asked Can to move ahead and get some goals and Can responded pretty nicely.
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  3. #33  
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Monk- View Post
    Can is better at carrying the ball forward and holding the ball up using his strength.

    Their shooting seems to be similar, although when played further forward Hendo does get goals too.

    Hendo is better at passing, short and long.
    Henderson positioning is also better, he's quicker to cover teams trying to beat our press and better at shielding the opposition attackers into less dangerous areas.
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  4. #34  
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    Quote Originally Posted by photoholic View Post
    Henderson positioning is also better, he's quicker to cover teams trying to beat our press and better at shielding the opposition attackers into less dangerous areas.
    Positioning better?

    Might as well start writing fiction novels mate, you have a few co authors on here who would help you too. Seems you have an active imagination on Henderson's ability.
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    So why were Sunderland more able to run at us yesterday?
    Why were they not steered into the channels towards the Fullbacks?

    If you can't see that then it's a trip to Spec savers for you.

    Henderson is very good at steering anyone trying to break on us into those channels. Can is still wondering where they came from!
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  6. #36  
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    Quote Originally Posted by photoholic View Post
    So why were Sunderland more able to run at us yesterday?
    Why were they not steered into the channels towards the Fullbacks?

    If you can't see that then it's a trip to Spec savers for you.

    Henderson is very good at steering anyone trying to break on us into those channels. Can is still wondering where they came from!
    Well it didn't happen against Bournemouth.
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  7. #37  
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    Quote Originally Posted by photoholic View Post
    So why were Sunderland more able to run at us yesterday?
    Why were they not steered into the channels towards the Fullbacks?

    If you can't see that then it's a trip to Spec savers for you.

    Henderson is very good at steering anyone trying to break on us into those channels. Can is still wondering where they came from!
    Hmmm i dunno maybe because we had no front press and our midfield 3 played 48 hours earlier. Or the fact you are using selective memory as we clearly have seen that plenty of times through the season. Henderson's ball chasing has cost olenty of times this season. You can argue all you like about Henderson but Emre is easily a better defender.

    The sunderland game is being over exaggerated, bar 2 pens it would have been a routine win in a not so great scenario but instead everyone wants to over play the loss of Henderson. Yes Emre had roughly a 20 min period when he was abit sloppy but the rest of the game he was fine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acumen View Post
    Well it didn't happen against Bournemouth.
    But it did against
    Arsenal
    City
    United
    Chelsea
    Spurs
    Stoke
    Watford
    Middlesborough
    Palace
    ...........
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamingOfKlopp View Post
    Hmmm i dunno maybe because we had no front press and our midfield 3 played 48 hours earlier. Or the fact you are using selective memory as we clearly have seen that plenty of times through the season. Henderson's ball chasing has cost olenty of times this season. You can argue all you like about Henderson but Emre is easily a better defender.

    The sunderland game is being over exaggerated, bar 2 pens it would have been a routine win in a not so great scenario but instead everyone wants to over play the loss of Henderson. Yes Emre had roughly a 20 min period when he was abit sloppy but the rest of the game he was fine.
    20 mins sloppiness is all it takes for a quality side to carve right through you. If that had been Henderson, you would have crucified him.

    If Can is so easily the better defender, why do all the stats say otherwise?

    Again, I'll ask you to actually prove your point, again you will do anything but.

    When they are both fit, I know who will be playing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by photoholic View Post
    But it did against
    Arsenal
    City
    United
    Chelsea
    Spurs
    Stoke
    Watford
    Middlesborough
    Palace
    ...........
    I stopped reading at Arsenal, they ran straight through our midfield because of Henderson's poor positioning. It wasn't till Emre came on that we steadied the ship.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamingOfKlopp View Post
    I stopped reading at Arsenal, they ran straight through our midfield because of Henderson's poor positioning. It wasn't till Emre came on that we steadied the ship.
    Ha ha ha, yes of course, all Henderson's fault.

    You are quite simply deluded. There is no reasoning with someone who's thought process is so far off anything like reasoned or balanced.

    I bid you goodbye in this thread. Pointless.
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  12. #42  
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    Quote Originally Posted by photoholic View Post
    But it did against
    Arsenal
    City
    United
    Chelsea
    Spurs
    Stoke
    Watford
    Middlesborough
    Palace
    ...........
    You brought up one game, I brought up one game. It was more to point out the flaw in that line of argument.
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    Quote Originally Posted by photoholic View Post
    Ha ha ha, yes of course, all Henderson's fault.

    You are quite simply deluded. There is no reasoning with someone who's thought process is so far off anything like reasoned or balanced.

    I bid you goodbye in this thread. Pointless.
    Henderson was ridiculously poor at the start of the season, it wasn't till Matip came in that his performances improved and that wasn't a coincidence.

    There is no secret our true quality lies in our attack and alot of that masks Henderson's limitations.
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    I rip Can alot to be honest, sometimes fairly and some times unfairly, there's no doubt he's talented but you cannot dwell on the ball as much as he does in the Premier League he is the momentum killer.
    All he has to do is quicken it up keep the ball moving, that one of only couple reasons probably why Henderson starts more because he does just that, and his positional play is superior.
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    im going to be a downer here and say that both arent that great at playing dm and of the two, would rather can as a box to box as he offers more of a goal threat.

    really feel we need a top class dm next season, but it wont happen. in saying that, i hope hendo is fit for united. i dont rate him highly at all, but its clear he is our best option there atm by a country mile
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  16. #46  
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    Quote Originally Posted by blaze31 View Post
    I rip Can alot to be honest, sometimes fairly and some times unfairly, there's no doubt he's talented but you cannot dwell on the ball as much as he does in the Premier League he is the momentum killer.
    All he has to do is quicken it up keep the ball moving, that one of only couple reasons probably why Henderson starts more because he does just that, and his positional play is superior.
    There are times where you can hold onto the ball, every phase of play doesn't have to be get ball, get rid. Sometimes it makes sense to see if you have time if a more threatening pass is on, or if there is space to exploit.
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  17. #47  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acumen View Post
    There are times where you can hold onto the ball, every phase of play doesn't have to be get ball, get rid. Sometimes it makes sense to see if you have time if a more threatening pass is on, or if there is space to exploit.
    Sometimes! It's Everytime with Can and that is the major problem.

    We're just not going to agree on this so I suggest we both stop and wait and see what happens in the coming month and year.

    I predict Can will be struggling to get a match day squad position once Klopp has had his summer transfer window.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vesku225 View Post
    Hmm who will play next to Henderson next season to make our midfield great again for me he is good enough.

    Henderson + possibly a new signing and Cou , Firmino, Lallana and Mane ahead . If we have a very good midfielder next to him Henderson can also make runs forward when required.
    If Henderson remains as the DM, which I'm not sure I'd want, I'd have Henderson, Lallana and Dahoud in the midfield 3
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    Can is a whole 4 years younger than Henderson. I'll be shocked if he isn't better than current Henderson at 26.
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  20. #50  
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    Quote Originally Posted by blaze31 View Post
    Sometimes! It's Everytime with Can and that is the major problem.

    We're just not going to agree on this so I suggest we both stop and wait and see what happens in the coming month and year.

    I predict Can will be struggling to get a match day squad position once Klopp has had his summer transfer window.
    Once again, its hyperbole with the whole "everytime".

    Its very possible that he may/will go but this current iteration of the midfield will be limited in its scope bar Lallana.
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  21. #51  
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    Why is this reduced to Can or Henderson.

    Neither have been particularly outstanding in their respective roles. Both lack attributes needed to play these positions too.

    Both are decent players who could flourish s support players if they were played alongside a proper, specialist midfielder in the holding position. That to me is the most obvious solution to our problems.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIOS View Post
    Why is this reduced to Can or Henderson.

    Neither have been particularly outstanding in their respective roles. Both lack attributes needed to play these positions too.

    Both are decent players who could flourish s support players if they were played alongside a proper, specialist midfielder in the holding position. That to me is the most obvious solution to our problems.
    Don't you notice the match threads??

    Its the same stuff. Its become two camps basically. Both have their limitations and their strengths. Neither are perfect, but we aren't asking them to be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIOS View Post
    Why is this reduced to Can or Henderson.

    Neither have been particularly outstanding in their respective roles. Both lack attributes needed to play these positions too.

    Both are decent players who could flourish s support players if they were played alongside a proper, specialist midfielder in the holding position. That to me is the most obvious solution to our problems.
    That's our problem, both payers are great to have around. But... whether its a Mash or Alonso or any other really top midfield player we haven't got one. We lack vision and tactical cuteness even though both players are very able to follow their instructions as is Gini. The passing ability thing is a misnomer too I think. Reading which is the best pass to play is just as important as the ability to play the pass, we haven't got that really.

    Choosing the space to move into is also something we have missing. It all boils down to us having good players in midfield but really top class? No. Can you get away with that? I don't think so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acumen View Post
    Don't you notice the match threads??

    Its the same stuff. Its become two camps basically. Both have their limitations and their strengths. Neither are perfect, but we aren't asking them to be.
    Can has alot more to give, he needs games in the role to learn and develop.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vesku225 View Post
    Hmm who will play next to Henderson next season to make our midfield great again for me he is good enough.

    Henderson + possibly a new signing and Cou , Firmino, Lallana and Mane ahead . If we have a very good midfielder next to him Henderson can also make runs forward when required.
    Our midfield won't be great again until Henderson isn't in it.... With that said I would rather address the defense before we do anything... I could probably live with our midfield as is for one more season... The defense has to be a priority...
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    Quote Originally Posted by photoholic View Post
    Ha ha ha, yes of course, all Henderson's fault.

    You are quite simply deluded. There is no reasoning with someone who's thought process is so far off anything like reasoned or balanced.

    I bid you goodbye in this thread. Pointless.
    What are you gonna do when Real Madrid come in for brilliant Hendo? He could hack it there couldn't he? I mean that's what I gather from the way you and others worship himo
    Last edited by AngriestRed; 4-1-17 at 01:34.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngriestRed View Post
    What at you gonna do when Real Madrid come in for brilliant Hendo? He could hack it there couldn't he? I mean that's what I gather from the way you and others worship him
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acumen View Post
    I'm not sure about this.
    Can should be better on the ball but this season he has been too ponderous and almost goes against the style a little, Henderson will pop it off quite simply and quickly and to be fair has provided some really top quality crosses off set pieces (they sometimes do that short ball to him before he whips it back post, training ground stuff but his radar has been in).

    Can just hasn't been definitive in much of what he's done this season though still time if he can build some rhythm and develop the obvious talent he has.

    Perhaps we'll have more options available in time so it just won't be about these two but with limited players for that position, the debate naturally arrives to Can and Henderson
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    It shouldn't have to be about Can vs Hendo.

    I am actually a big Can fan. Strong, powerful, passionate, leader, decent passer and a good shot on him. He's been pushed further forward and he is getting in the goals.

    But he switches off too much - at the moment he switches off further up the pitch and loses the ball. If he did that as regularly further back, we would be in all sorts of trouble - more than we concede now. He also doesn't pick his passes well, and makes poor decisions regularly.
    He is young though, and will get better - but his natural game is that of a box-to-box or AM. He hasn't got the discipline to be a DM, and I don't think he will get it either.

    Henderson is 5 months into a new role, had a dodgy first few games, but has been the best DM in the league this season bar Kante ever since. That isn't hyperbole. It isn't Hendo loving. The stats, pundit feedback, media and just watching the games will give you that impression.

    You may not think he's number 2. You might think 1-2 from Fernandinho, Coquelin, Matic etc are better. But to say he's not been good enough or worse just proves you as either a WUM, someone with an agenda against him or just someone who doesn't know much about football.

    Can we improve on Hendo? As someone has pointed out, most teams can improve on players. Are we in a position to? Probably. Does Klopp want to? That is the question - he chose Hendo for this role in the summer (he did DOK, before you start rattling off fiction about it being because Can was injured), kept him as captain when he didn't have to, and even when all other CMs have been fit, Hendo hasn't been dropped.

    Maybe Klopp actually rates him?
    I'm the normal one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scousechrisj View Post
    It shouldn't have to be about Can vs Hendo.

    I am actually a big Can fan. Strong, powerful, passionate, leader, decent passer and a good shot on him. He's been pushed further forward and he is getting in the goals.

    But he switches off too much - at the moment he switches off further up the pitch and loses the ball. If he did that as regularly further back, we would be in all sorts of trouble - more than we concede now. He also doesn't pick his passes well, and makes poor decisions regularly.
    He is young though, and will get better - but his natural game is that of a box-to-box or AM. He hasn't got the discipline to be a DM, and I don't think he will get it either.

    Henderson is 5 months into a new role, had a dodgy first few games, but has been the best DM in the league this season bar Kante ever since. That isn't hyperbole. It isn't Hendo loving. The stats, pundit feedback, media and just watching the games will give you that impression.

    You may not think he's number 2. You might think 1-2 from Fernandinho, Coquelin, Matic etc are better. But to say he's not been good enough or worse just proves you as either a WUM, someone with an agenda against him or just someone who doesn't know much about football.

    Can we improve on Hendo? As someone has pointed out, most teams can improve on players. Are we in a position to? Probably. Does Klopp want to? That is the question - he chose Hendo for this role in the summer (he did DOK, before you start rattling off fiction about it being because Can was injured), kept him as captain when he didn't have to, and even when all other CMs have been fit, Hendo hasn't been dropped.

    Maybe Klopp actually rates him?
    What a complete waste of time that post is. Its as if you are trying to communicate with people who are as fair minded as you. Superb post by the way for fence sitters.
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