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Thread: All Things Ben Woodburn

  1. #181  
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIOS View Post
    Absolutely loads of people rated Bale at Saints when we were first linked to him.

    Unsurprisingly, a lot of people discovered they didnt quite rate him so highly after all when it transpired he would be signing for Spurs.
    There was that but he did go off the radar and was infamous only for the appearances and losing stat for Spurs, that and him orhis manager struggling to identify a position meant he dropped out of fashion

    Point is, he was rated as a young kid but was not a sure fire thing or regarded as one, especially as I say when he lost his way

    Fact is you can;t really blueprint the development of a player now based on the players mentioned and clearly they develop differently.
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  2. #182  
    GrottonRed is online now LFC Forums Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIOS View Post
    You could, however, see it from his very first goal.
    True...but he'd made around 30 appearances by then.
    Life President of TEPS...The Ellipsis Preservation Society.
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  3. #183  
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    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post

    Fact is you can;t really blueprint the development of a player now based on the players mentioned and clearly they develop differently.
    But you can gauge whether you think a player a 17 will have a long term future here or establish himself in the first team. And you can use the level of quality former players had as an indicator as to whether you think another player at that age shares a similar level of quality. That level of quality is a requirement for players. That's something real and tangible. As in, we know this is the level of quality the players who had it at, so does this player demonstrate similar levels of quality.

    It's easier to see if a player has the potential to be as good as some of the players talked about, and especially so of players in the forward positions. For example, for all the goals scored by Mellor at reserve level, you can see from the moment you saw him that he didnt have what Owen or Fowler had. These are exceptionally talented players that were good enough to excel at 18, let alone 25. That is easier to spot and call as opposed to deciding whether you have a player who is just going to do enough to play some regular first team football. And, again more specifically in those forward positions, it's that level of quality that is required to actually be successful here. Why? Because that is the standard that's required to "make it' at Liverpool. Who was the last player to come through the system who established themselves as a first team regular without actually playing to that kind of exceptionally high standard? Who was the last player who came through who just supported the first team for any decent period of time? The truth is you have to be exceptional to make it here. To be an established regular and carve a career out at Liverpool.
    Last edited by FIOS; 17-3-17 at 12:52.
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  4. #184  
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrottonRed View Post
    True...but he'd made around 30 appearances by then.
    He scored that after about his seventh full game for us.
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  5. #185  
    CrawleyRed is online now The Jolly Green Giant's big brother
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIOS View Post
    Sheffield Wednesday is a fine name for a cat.


    If I'd gone down a similar route I would have called mine Jamie Cattagher.
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  6. #186  
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIOS View Post
    But you can gauge whether you think a player a 17 will have a long term future here or establish himself in the first team. And you can use the level of quality former players had as an indicator as to whether you think another player at that age shares a similar level of quality. That level of quality is a requirement for players. That's something real and tangible. As in, we know this is the level of quality the players who had it at, so does this player demonstrate similar levels of quality.

    It's easier to see if a player has the potential to be as good as some of the players talked about, and especially so of players in the forward positions. For example, for all the goals scored by Mellor at reserve level, you can see from the moment you saw him that he didnt have what Owen or Fowler had. These are exceptionally talented players that were good enough to excel at 18, let alone 25. That is easier to spot and call as opposed to deciding whether you have a player who is just going to do enough to play some regular first team football. And, again more specifically in those forward positions, it's that level of quality that is required to actually be successful here. Why? Because that is the standard that's required to "make it' at Liverpool. Who was the last player to come through the system who established themselves as a first team regular without actually playing to that kind of exceptionally high standard? Who was the last player who came through who just supported the first team for any decent period of time? The truth is you have to be exceptional to make it here. To be an established regular and carve a career out at Liverpool.
    Yes very true to an extent, an indicator is about the gist of it.

    Mellor, Morgan as another example already used were well short in the senior team of making an impact, effort was there but just not the quality, nowhere near in reality.

    Its so much harder here to as you allude to because of what's been, how many next Hansen's or Fowler's have we had over the years that have come to nothing.

    I do personally think Woodburn differs and I mentioned on the last page the reasons why but while its boring to say only time will tell.

    An interesting parallel going back to Gerrard in his youth days was Jason Koumas who I watched an awful lot of. Both were very talented as kids, Koumas had a wonderful touch and moved so smoothly, the technique was all there and was thought of very highly, but the difference in their trajectory is there for all to see.

    All comes down to the ability of course but also the attitude too
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    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    Yes very true to an extent, an indicator is about the gist of it.

    Mellor, Morgan as another example already used were well short in the senior team of making an impact, effort was there but just not the quality, nowhere near in reality.

    Its so much harder here to as you allude to because of what's been, how many next Hansen's or Fowler's have we had over the years that have come to nothing.

    I do personally think Woodburn differs and I mentioned on the last page the reasons why but while its boring to say only time will tell.

    An interesting parallel going back to Gerrard in his youth days was Jason Koumas who I watched an awful lot of. Both were very talented as kids, Koumas had a wonderful touch and moved so smoothly, the technique was all there and was thought of very highly, but the difference in their trajectory is there for all to see.

    All comes down to the ability of course but also the attitude too
    Why did you watch a lot of Tranmere?
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrawleyRed View Post


    If I'd gone down a similar route I would have called mine Jamie Cattagher.
    Or Robbie Growler
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIOS View Post
    Why did you watch a lot of Tranmere?
    Nah never watched him, made it up

    Tranmere were making some headlines if you recall with cup runs and he was doing great things there at the time as a kid (he was in the Liverpool academy with Gerrard & Owen before that).

    So I followed him a bit then but it was more when he played in the Prem with West Brom (he scored some great goals from midfield that season and I mean great goals)and got his Wales caps, thought this lad could be special, had such moments of top top quality

    Watched him far more at Cardiff when he went there on loan the first time, think he was the player of the season in the Championship that year before West Brom took him back

    Then it gradually went to ****

    He came back to Cardiff too on another loan but was crocked by that point
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  10. #190  
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    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    Nah never watched him, made it up

    Tranmere were making some headlines if you recall with cup runs and he was doing great things there at the time as a kid (he was in the Liverpool academy with Gerrard & Owen before that).

    So I followed him a bit then but it was more when he played in the Prem with West Brom (he scored some great goals from midfield that season and I mean great goals)and got his Wales caps, thought this lad could be special, had such moments of top top quality

    Watched him far more at Cardiff when he went there on loan the first time, think he was the player of the season in the Championship that year before West Brom took him back

    Then it gradually went to ****

    He came back to Cardiff too on another loan but was crocked by that point
    When you spoke of him, I thought you meant you could see he was going to be a player from a young age in the same way Gerrard progressed here. Hence asking why you would invest so much time in watching him at Tranmere. I didn't realise you just meant you'd seen him once he'd established himself as a player.

    I used to work with his arl fella, as it happens. He used to hate the comparisons with Gerrard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIOS View Post
    When you spoke of him, I thought you meant you could see he was going to be a player from a young age in the same way Gerrard progressed here. Hence asking why you would invest so much time in watching him at Tranmere. I didn't realise you just meant you'd seen him once he'd established himself as a player.

    I used to work with his arl fella, as it happens. He used to hate the comparisons with Gerrard.
    No I worked backwards with him, it was more when watching him at Cardiff and Wales, looked exceptional at times and always felt he was capable of more, especially seeing a few of his goals at West Brom prior to that & those cup adventures with Tranmere

    Funny you should say that with the comparison, dug out an article from last year on that very topic:

    https://www.theguardian.com/football...rpool-tranmere
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  12. #192  
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    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    No I worked backwards with him, it was more when watching him at Cardiff and Wales, looked exceptional at times and always felt he was capable of more, especially seeing a few of his goals at West Brom prior to that & those cup adventures with Tranmere

    Funny you should say that with the comparison, dug out an article from last year on that very topic:

    https://www.theguardian.com/football...rpool-tranmere
    Yea it's stuff like that that his arl fella hated. He always said it was unfair because they just didnt have the same talent. Gerrard was one of the most talented players to every play the game, so I see his point. It wasn't just attitude or hard work that separates these players. It is a matter of what they can do and repeatedly do with a football every time they play. Look at some of the names this fella in the article cites. It's crap. It's one of those exaggerated cliches people trot out to enforce a point. Koumas was not as talented as Ronaldinho. Let's not be stupid about this now. And that's Ronaldinho who spent as much time in nightclubs as he did on the training ground, remember.
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  13. #193  
    Gazza74 is online now LFCTV GO Football Poster of the Season 2013-14
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    I really like the look of this lad, he's raw still but he hasn't looked out of place when appearing in the first team, has the talent but also the confidence when coming on and getting involved.

    I agree that quite often you just know if a kid has it or not, at this stage i think he does have it but hard to know if he'll develop from this point to truly make it here, that is up to him to grow and improve.

    He does look technically sound and very intelligent too so has every chance, i like how he plays and he can create and score goals so exciting to see how things go.
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    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    No I worked backwards with him, it was more when watching him at Cardiff and Wales, looked exceptional at times and always felt he was capable of more, especially seeing a few of his goals at West Brom prior to that & those cup adventures with Tranmere

    Funny you should say that with the comparison, dug out an article from last year on that very topic:

    https://www.theguardian.com/football...rpool-tranmere
    That's some BS isn't it
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  15. #195  
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIOS View Post
    Yea it's stuff like that that his arl fella hated. He always said it was unfair because they just didnt have the same talent. Gerrard was one of the most talented players to every play the game, so I see his point. It wasn't just attitude or hard work that separates these players. It is a matter of what they can do and repeatedly do with a football every time they play. Look at some of the names this fella in the article cites. It's crap. It's one of those exaggerated cliches people trot out to enforce a point. Koumas was not as talented as Ronaldinho. Let's not be stupid about this now. And that's Ronaldinho who spent as much time in nightclubs as he did on the training ground, remember.
    Never seen Koumas compared to Marco Van Basten before
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  16. #196  
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIOS View Post
    Yea it's stuff like that that his arl fella hated. He always said it was unfair because they just didnt have the same talent. Gerrard was one of the most talented players to every play the game, so I see his point. It wasn't just attitude or hard work that separates these players. It is a matter of what they can do and repeatedly do with a football every time they play. Look at some of the names this fella in the article cites. It's crap. It's one of those exaggerated cliches people trot out to enforce a point. Koumas was not as talented as Ronaldinho. Let's not be stupid about this now. And that's Ronaldinho who spent as much time in nightclubs as he did on the training ground, remember.
    Yes the Gerrard comparison is harsh in the extreme along with some of the names

    But still, Koumas I thought was wonderfully talented, quite a unique skill set but effort alone is never enough, you have to the quality consistently, Koumas was also quite unlucky with injuries too and was another player slightly caught between stalls in terms of where you could play him or accomadate him.

    Anyways I'm derailing this thread rather, the wider point is around rarely knowing how even the most gifted kids will work out with so many variables, very few have the exceptional levels or stand out talent to make it here or in the bigger clubs in the Prem generally.....personally I'd say Woodburn clearly has the potential from what I've seen for reasons already laid out

    Quote Originally Posted by LFC-Simon-95 View Post
    That's some BS isn't it
    Yeah some, not all though.

    He goes well OTT in comparisons but there is a wider point on the fine lines in football and how players develop or not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    Yes the Gerrard comparison is harsh in the extreme along with some of the names

    But still, Koumas I thought was wonderfully talented, quite a unique skill set but effort alone is never enough, you have to the quality consistently, Koumas was also quite unlucky with injuries too and was another player slightly caught between stalls in terms of where you could play him or accomadate him.

    Anyways I'm derailing this thread rather, the wider point is around rarely knowing how even the most gifted kids will work out with so many variables, very few have the exceptional levels or stand out talent to make it here or in the bigger clubs in the Prem generally.....personally I'd say Woodburn clearly has the potential from what I've seen for reasons already laid out



    Yeah some, not all though.

    He goes well OTT in comparisons but there is a wider point on the fine lines in football and how players develop or not.
    There's a point to be made, but that article uses ludicrous hyperbole and sort of loses all credibility
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFC-Simon-95 View Post
    There's a point to be made, but that article uses ludicrous hyperbole and sort of loses all credibility
    It was posted in relation to a discussion with FIOS specifically around Koumas and comparisons his old man grew tired of

    This was not about the credibility of the article

    Never mind, I was trying to go back full circle on Woodburn, moving on.....
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