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Thread: All Things Ben Woodburn

  1. #181  
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIOS View Post
    Absolutely loads of people rated Bale at Saints when we were first linked to him.

    Unsurprisingly, a lot of people discovered they didnt quite rate him so highly after all when it transpired he would be signing for Spurs.
    There was that but he did go off the radar and was infamous only for the appearances and losing stat for Spurs, that and him orhis manager struggling to identify a position meant he dropped out of fashion

    Point is, he was rated as a young kid but was not a sure fire thing or regarded as one, especially as I say when he lost his way

    Fact is you can;t really blueprint the development of a player now based on the players mentioned and clearly they develop differently.
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  2. #182  
    GrottonRed is online now LFC Forums Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIOS View Post
    You could, however, see it from his very first goal.
    True...but he'd made around 30 appearances by then.
    Life President of TEPS...The Ellipsis Preservation Society.
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    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post

    Fact is you can;t really blueprint the development of a player now based on the players mentioned and clearly they develop differently.
    But you can gauge whether you think a player a 17 will have a long term future here or establish himself in the first team. And you can use the level of quality former players had as an indicator as to whether you think another player at that age shares a similar level of quality. That level of quality is a requirement for players. That's something real and tangible. As in, we know this is the level of quality the players who had it at, so does this player demonstrate similar levels of quality.

    It's easier to see if a player has the potential to be as good as some of the players talked about, and especially so of players in the forward positions. For example, for all the goals scored by Mellor at reserve level, you can see from the moment you saw him that he didnt have what Owen or Fowler had. These are exceptionally talented players that were good enough to excel at 18, let alone 25. That is easier to spot and call as opposed to deciding whether you have a player who is just going to do enough to play some regular first team football. And, again more specifically in those forward positions, it's that level of quality that is required to actually be successful here. Why? Because that is the standard that's required to "make it' at Liverpool. Who was the last player to come through the system who established themselves as a first team regular without actually playing to that kind of exceptionally high standard? Who was the last player who came through who just supported the first team for any decent period of time? The truth is you have to be exceptional to make it here. To be an established regular and carve a career out at Liverpool.
    Last edited by FIOS; 17-3-17 at 13:52.
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  4. #184  
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrottonRed View Post
    True...but he'd made around 30 appearances by then.
    He scored that after about his seventh full game for us.
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  5. #185  
    CrawleyRed is online now The Jolly Green Giant's big brother
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIOS View Post
    Sheffield Wednesday is a fine name for a cat.


    If I'd gone down a similar route I would have called mine Jamie Cattagher.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIOS View Post
    But you can gauge whether you think a player a 17 will have a long term future here or establish himself in the first team. And you can use the level of quality former players had as an indicator as to whether you think another player at that age shares a similar level of quality. That level of quality is a requirement for players. That's something real and tangible. As in, we know this is the level of quality the players who had it at, so does this player demonstrate similar levels of quality.

    It's easier to see if a player has the potential to be as good as some of the players talked about, and especially so of players in the forward positions. For example, for all the goals scored by Mellor at reserve level, you can see from the moment you saw him that he didnt have what Owen or Fowler had. These are exceptionally talented players that were good enough to excel at 18, let alone 25. That is easier to spot and call as opposed to deciding whether you have a player who is just going to do enough to play some regular first team football. And, again more specifically in those forward positions, it's that level of quality that is required to actually be successful here. Why? Because that is the standard that's required to "make it' at Liverpool. Who was the last player to come through the system who established themselves as a first team regular without actually playing to that kind of exceptionally high standard? Who was the last player who came through who just supported the first team for any decent period of time? The truth is you have to be exceptional to make it here. To be an established regular and carve a career out at Liverpool.
    Yes very true to an extent, an indicator is about the gist of it.

    Mellor, Morgan as another example already used were well short in the senior team of making an impact, effort was there but just not the quality, nowhere near in reality.

    Its so much harder here to as you allude to because of what's been, how many next Hansen's or Fowler's have we had over the years that have come to nothing.

    I do personally think Woodburn differs and I mentioned on the last page the reasons why but while its boring to say only time will tell.

    An interesting parallel going back to Gerrard in his youth days was Jason Koumas who I watched an awful lot of. Both were very talented as kids, Koumas had a wonderful touch and moved so smoothly, the technique was all there and was thought of very highly, but the difference in their trajectory is there for all to see.

    All comes down to the ability of course but also the attitude too
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    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    Yes very true to an extent, an indicator is about the gist of it.

    Mellor, Morgan as another example already used were well short in the senior team of making an impact, effort was there but just not the quality, nowhere near in reality.

    Its so much harder here to as you allude to because of what's been, how many next Hansen's or Fowler's have we had over the years that have come to nothing.

    I do personally think Woodburn differs and I mentioned on the last page the reasons why but while its boring to say only time will tell.

    An interesting parallel going back to Gerrard in his youth days was Jason Koumas who I watched an awful lot of. Both were very talented as kids, Koumas had a wonderful touch and moved so smoothly, the technique was all there and was thought of very highly, but the difference in their trajectory is there for all to see.

    All comes down to the ability of course but also the attitude too
    Why did you watch a lot of Tranmere?
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrawleyRed View Post


    If I'd gone down a similar route I would have called mine Jamie Cattagher.
    Or Robbie Growler
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIOS View Post
    Why did you watch a lot of Tranmere?
    Nah never watched him, made it up

    Tranmere were making some headlines if you recall with cup runs and he was doing great things there at the time as a kid (he was in the Liverpool academy with Gerrard & Owen before that).

    So I followed him a bit then but it was more when he played in the Prem with West Brom (he scored some great goals from midfield that season and I mean great goals)and got his Wales caps, thought this lad could be special, had such moments of top top quality

    Watched him far more at Cardiff when he went there on loan the first time, think he was the player of the season in the Championship that year before West Brom took him back

    Then it gradually went to ****

    He came back to Cardiff too on another loan but was crocked by that point
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    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    Nah never watched him, made it up

    Tranmere were making some headlines if you recall with cup runs and he was doing great things there at the time as a kid (he was in the Liverpool academy with Gerrard & Owen before that).

    So I followed him a bit then but it was more when he played in the Prem with West Brom (he scored some great goals from midfield that season and I mean great goals)and got his Wales caps, thought this lad could be special, had such moments of top top quality

    Watched him far more at Cardiff when he went there on loan the first time, think he was the player of the season in the Championship that year before West Brom took him back

    Then it gradually went to ****

    He came back to Cardiff too on another loan but was crocked by that point
    When you spoke of him, I thought you meant you could see he was going to be a player from a young age in the same way Gerrard progressed here. Hence asking why you would invest so much time in watching him at Tranmere. I didn't realise you just meant you'd seen him once he'd established himself as a player.

    I used to work with his arl fella, as it happens. He used to hate the comparisons with Gerrard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIOS View Post
    When you spoke of him, I thought you meant you could see he was going to be a player from a young age in the same way Gerrard progressed here. Hence asking why you would invest so much time in watching him at Tranmere. I didn't realise you just meant you'd seen him once he'd established himself as a player.

    I used to work with his arl fella, as it happens. He used to hate the comparisons with Gerrard.
    No I worked backwards with him, it was more when watching him at Cardiff and Wales, looked exceptional at times and always felt he was capable of more, especially seeing a few of his goals at West Brom prior to that & those cup adventures with Tranmere

    Funny you should say that with the comparison, dug out an article from last year on that very topic:

    https://www.theguardian.com/football...rpool-tranmere
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    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    No I worked backwards with him, it was more when watching him at Cardiff and Wales, looked exceptional at times and always felt he was capable of more, especially seeing a few of his goals at West Brom prior to that & those cup adventures with Tranmere

    Funny you should say that with the comparison, dug out an article from last year on that very topic:

    https://www.theguardian.com/football...rpool-tranmere
    Yea it's stuff like that that his arl fella hated. He always said it was unfair because they just didnt have the same talent. Gerrard was one of the most talented players to every play the game, so I see his point. It wasn't just attitude or hard work that separates these players. It is a matter of what they can do and repeatedly do with a football every time they play. Look at some of the names this fella in the article cites. It's crap. It's one of those exaggerated cliches people trot out to enforce a point. Koumas was not as talented as Ronaldinho. Let's not be stupid about this now. And that's Ronaldinho who spent as much time in nightclubs as he did on the training ground, remember.
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  13. #193  
    Gazza74 is online now LFCTV GO Football Poster of the Season 2013-14
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    I really like the look of this lad, he's raw still but he hasn't looked out of place when appearing in the first team, has the talent but also the confidence when coming on and getting involved.

    I agree that quite often you just know if a kid has it or not, at this stage i think he does have it but hard to know if he'll develop from this point to truly make it here, that is up to him to grow and improve.

    He does look technically sound and very intelligent too so has every chance, i like how he plays and he can create and score goals so exciting to see how things go.
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    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    No I worked backwards with him, it was more when watching him at Cardiff and Wales, looked exceptional at times and always felt he was capable of more, especially seeing a few of his goals at West Brom prior to that & those cup adventures with Tranmere

    Funny you should say that with the comparison, dug out an article from last year on that very topic:

    https://www.theguardian.com/football...rpool-tranmere
    That's some BS isn't it
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIOS View Post
    Yea it's stuff like that that his arl fella hated. He always said it was unfair because they just didnt have the same talent. Gerrard was one of the most talented players to every play the game, so I see his point. It wasn't just attitude or hard work that separates these players. It is a matter of what they can do and repeatedly do with a football every time they play. Look at some of the names this fella in the article cites. It's crap. It's one of those exaggerated cliches people trot out to enforce a point. Koumas was not as talented as Ronaldinho. Let's not be stupid about this now. And that's Ronaldinho who spent as much time in nightclubs as he did on the training ground, remember.
    Never seen Koumas compared to Marco Van Basten before
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIOS View Post
    Yea it's stuff like that that his arl fella hated. He always said it was unfair because they just didnt have the same talent. Gerrard was one of the most talented players to every play the game, so I see his point. It wasn't just attitude or hard work that separates these players. It is a matter of what they can do and repeatedly do with a football every time they play. Look at some of the names this fella in the article cites. It's crap. It's one of those exaggerated cliches people trot out to enforce a point. Koumas was not as talented as Ronaldinho. Let's not be stupid about this now. And that's Ronaldinho who spent as much time in nightclubs as he did on the training ground, remember.
    Yes the Gerrard comparison is harsh in the extreme along with some of the names

    But still, Koumas I thought was wonderfully talented, quite a unique skill set but effort alone is never enough, you have to the quality consistently, Koumas was also quite unlucky with injuries too and was another player slightly caught between stalls in terms of where you could play him or accomadate him.

    Anyways I'm derailing this thread rather, the wider point is around rarely knowing how even the most gifted kids will work out with so many variables, very few have the exceptional levels or stand out talent to make it here or in the bigger clubs in the Prem generally.....personally I'd say Woodburn clearly has the potential from what I've seen for reasons already laid out

    Quote Originally Posted by LFC-Simon-95 View Post
    That's some BS isn't it
    Yeah some, not all though.

    He goes well OTT in comparisons but there is a wider point on the fine lines in football and how players develop or not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    Yes the Gerrard comparison is harsh in the extreme along with some of the names

    But still, Koumas I thought was wonderfully talented, quite a unique skill set but effort alone is never enough, you have to the quality consistently, Koumas was also quite unlucky with injuries too and was another player slightly caught between stalls in terms of where you could play him or accomadate him.

    Anyways I'm derailing this thread rather, the wider point is around rarely knowing how even the most gifted kids will work out with so many variables, very few have the exceptional levels or stand out talent to make it here or in the bigger clubs in the Prem generally.....personally I'd say Woodburn clearly has the potential from what I've seen for reasons already laid out



    Yeah some, not all though.

    He goes well OTT in comparisons but there is a wider point on the fine lines in football and how players develop or not.
    There's a point to be made, but that article uses ludicrous hyperbole and sort of loses all credibility
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFC-Simon-95 View Post
    There's a point to be made, but that article uses ludicrous hyperbole and sort of loses all credibility
    It was posted in relation to a discussion with FIOS specifically around Koumas and comparisons his old man grew tired of

    This was not about the credibility of the article

    Never mind, I was trying to go back full circle on Woodburn, moving on.....
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    I only watched the 2nd half of today/yesterday's U23 game v Sunderland, so if the first half saw a different performance please let me know. At any rate, I thought Woodburn looked particularly poor and almost lethargic out there, which was a surprise to me. I have been excited about him and he is still very young (perhaps was successful too soon?) so I don't want to be too harsh. Is he fighting through any injuries or is it a matter of learning different positions? Or perhaps my analysis is off...I just saw lots of bright spots -- Ejaria, subs Virtue, Brewster, and Dhanda, looked very good -- and Woodburn stood out as having a poor performance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonagFam View Post
    I only watched the 2nd half of today/yesterday's U23 game v Sunderland, so if the first half saw a different performance please let me know. At any rate, I thought Woodburn looked particularly poor and almost lethargic out there, which was a surprise to me. I have been excited about him and he is still very young (perhaps was successful too soon?) so I don't want to be too harsh. Is he fighting through any injuries or is it a matter of learning different positions? Or perhaps my analysis is off...I just saw lots of bright spots -- Ejaria, subs Virtue, Brewster, and Dhanda, looked very good -- and Woodburn stood out as having a poor performance.
    I was surprised there wasn't a thread for the match. Had there been I would have posted exactly the same. There's no way I want to berate a young player for one bad performance but it did look a little like he wasn't putting in the effort of others. I could well be completely wrong and he had a poor game; it happens. Other observations: has Brewster had a huge growth spurt, he looked 6 inches taller? But continues to look a a player. Ejaria continues to impress. I can't really get my head round Virtue stepping up to the 1st team but he's going to do everything to convince Jurgen he might. Sam Hart again impressed, forward and in defence.
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    Ben Woodburns smacks of the regressed young footballer who is not hungry enough to make the first important step in his professional career,

    I want to review him with the U23 selection, but this season could already be decisive for the fate of his future career,

    we should understand if the bloke has really the willingness to make it in top flight professional football with the Red colours,

    I think the next couple of seasons could hint us something more about this kid,
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    Alpha Papa is online now Academy prospect
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    Quote Originally Posted by rosso76 View Post
    Ben Woodburns smacks of the regressed young footballer who is not hungry enough to make the first important step in his professional career,

    I want to review him with the U23 selection, but this season could already be decisive for the fate of his future career,

    we should understand if the bloke has really the willingness to make it in top flight professional football with the Red colours,

    I think the next couple of seasons could hint us something more about this kid,
    Think you're talking out of your **** to be fair.

    Did you hear Klopp speaking after Hoffenheim? Talking abotu TAA's free-kick he said "Him and Woodburn often spend hours after training has finished working on their freekicks and corners". Doesn't sound like someone who is not hungry to me.

    It's clear that Klopp likes him too.
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    You also have to consider he is being deployed in a range of positions to assist his development, the judgements by the Op seem to be on a what you see is what you get, but in reality this young player is still a baby and being asked to play in different roles a lot of weeks....not with the purpose of entertaining those watching at this stage, but for speed of development it seems.

    From what I've seen for Wales too he's got a bright future.

    The not hungry enough comment is absolutely bizarre! How someone can tell this from one isolated under23 match is beyond me
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    I would think he's getting used to having his muscles worked a lot more than when he was working with the academy. The step up will be a strain on his body which may well still be growing.

    He'll be kicking on in a few weeks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Papa View Post
    Think you're talking out of your **** to be fair.

    Did you hear Klopp speaking after Hoffenheim? Talking abotu TAA's free-kick he said "Him and Woodburn often spend hours after training has finished working on their freekicks and corners". Doesn't sound like someone who is not hungry to me.

    It's clear that Klopp likes him too.
    but last Ben Woodburn U23 outings make me think he has not hunger enough to become the next big thing, mate,

    I'm sorry if I contradict you, mate, but this is my view about the boy,

    TAA is another kettle of fish, fortunately,
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    He has a long way to go and at 17 still has time. What frustrates me is the positions he's put in. I have been impressed when he's played up front as an out and out striker. He seems to be all over the shop at the mo. Put 8t this way, could you imagine Harry Kane as a left winger? Neither can I!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlton Facepalmer View Post
    I would think he's getting used to having his muscles worked a lot more than when he was working with the academy. The step up will be a strain on his body which may well still be growing.

    He'll be kicking on in a few weeks.
    Yup, another important factor at this stage in his development

    Quote Originally Posted by rosso76 View Post
    but last Ben Woodburn U23 outings make me think he has not hunger enough to become the next big thing, mate,

    I'm sorry if I contradict you, mate, but this is my view about the boy,

    TAA is another kettle of fish, fortunately,
    Its just totally unfounded though, repeating it doesn't make it any more valid

    You could observe you think he has a lack of talent to make it to the top, but to pick out a lack of hunger based on absolutely nothing is just bizarre
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    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    You also have to consider he is being deployed in a range of positions to assist his development, the judgements by the Op seem to be on a what you see is what you get, but in reality this young player is still a baby and being asked to play in different roles a lot of weeks....not with the purpose of entertaining those watching at this stage, but for speed of development it seems.

    From what I've seen for Wales too he's got a bright future.

    The not hungry enough comment is absolutely bizarre! How someone can tell this from one isolated under23 match is beyond me
    this^^^^ good post mate.
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    lonewolf kal is online now Boot Room insider
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlton Facepalmer View Post
    I would think he's getting used to having his muscles worked a lot more than when he was working with the academy. The step up will be a strain on his body which may well still be growing.

    He'll be kicking on in a few weeks.
    indeed it is and will until he is about 21, both mentally and physically, so there will be plenty of ups and downs between now and then, its called maturing.
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    Show me a young player who doesn't have a bad game every few weeks and I'll show you a young Lionel Messi
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