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Thread: Heading footballs leads to progressive brain damage and earlier onset of dementia

  1. #151  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roshi98 View Post
    Seems there are many footie fans engaging in the same dismissal and denial of CTE as happened in the NFL. This is not a debate anymore, it's not a matter of opinion, heading a ball can result in low-grade concussive events which can eventually lead to the onset of CTE. Don't even try to argue against the science, just admit you don't give a ****, own it, and say you don't care what happens to players after they retire.
    But the affected players mentioned were from the 50s and 60s and played with heavy leather balls rather than the lighter ones that came during the 70s and later on.
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  2. #152  
    BearWithMe is online now First team regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roshi98 View Post
    Seems there are many footie fans engaging in the same dismissal and denial of CTE as happened in the NFL. This is not a debate anymore, it's not a matter of opinion, heading a ball can result in low-grade concussive events which can eventually lead to the onset of CTE. Don't even try to argue against the science, just admit you don't give a ****, own it, and say you don't care what happens to players after they retire.
    But there is no science to prove it? in the NFL yes there is and boxing but not football as we know it today. Not enough research has been do to link brain injury's with heading the old style footballs never mind the beach ball like new ones!
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  3. #153  
    KeepTheFightForJustice is online now Directors Box
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrackerJacker View Post
    But the affected players mentioned were from the 50s and 60s and played with heavy leather balls rather than the lighter ones that came during the 70s and later on.
    They're saying that the balls are now hit harder than back then. Which results in harder impact.

    Not saying they're right. Just that was the explanation that I was given when I tweeted Rob Harris.
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  4. #154  
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    Definitely... just look at ex footballers/ current pundits
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    As a defender during my playing career I was renowned for my heading ability. I'm now 51 and a senior executive and pretty much got all of my facilities with me. This is just crap. Bit like climate change - makes sense if you read it long enough but the proof is another thing.
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  6. #156  
    Darrren1 is online now Better tables than DFS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klopphopper View Post
    As a defender during my playing career I was renowned for my heading ability. I'm now 51 and a senior executive and pretty much got all of my facilities with me. This is just crap. Bit like climate change - makes sense if you read it long enough but the proof is another thing.
    Do you not mean faculties?

    Ahem.
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  7. #157  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrren1 View Post
    Do you not mean faculties?

    Ahem.
    Lol. More to do with my automatic spell check on my iPhone but see your point!
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    Interesting discussion. Being in the US concussions are a hot topic issue. With American football being the top sport and with as much spotlight on it, it is hard to avoid. My son plays it and there is always education for parents and certification required for coaches. (Not saying it is always enough or if it is sometimes more about allaying fears of parents.) I have heard people locally say heading a ball is just as bad...I don't really agree, but it will say watching this brand of football (EPL and World Cup mainly) they seem a bit behind in identifying or dealing with concussions.

    One thing comes up is about how it isn't necessarily the games, but the hours of practice. For boxing, it's not the 10 or 12 round fight (though they are a factor) but adding in the 100s of rounds of sparring.

    Does the same thing hold true for heading a ball? Do they limit them in practice? I know my daughters may still be in an age group where they don't do headers and in a year or so when they do it's limited to how many per week they can practice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BearWithMe View Post
    But there is no science to prove it? in the NFL yes there is and boxing but not football as we know it today. Not enough research has been do to link brain injury's with heading the old style footballs never mind the beach ball like new ones!
    So let's just wait for more autopsies to prove CTE is an issue in the game, shall we? Because that's how this works. You don't know definitively until the brain of a dead player is examined. Just let it sink in, what you're dismissing. There's science enough, and the weight of the ball argument is preposterous. CTE isn't simply about the weight of the object or the force of impact one or two times but REPEATED low to moderate concussive and undetectable subconcussive events. It's cumulative. Not all players will get it, but for those who do the resulting physical, cognitive, and behavioral impacts are devastating.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klopphopper View Post
    As a defender during my playing career I was renowned for my heading ability. I'm now 51 and a senior executive and pretty much got all of my facilities with me. This is just crap. Bit like climate change - makes sense if you read it long enough but the proof is another thing.
    And like climate science your anecdotal experience of weather does not disprove man made climate change, just as having your wits about you (your denialism notwithstanding) doesn't disprove CTE in football players.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roshi98 View Post
    And like climate science your anecdotal experience of weather does not disprove man made climate change, just as having your wits about you (your denialism notwithstanding) doesn't disprove CTE in football players.
    Not the right person to be debating climate change. Spent a year of my life involved in developing and implementing climate change policy at a government level and my considered opinion after being a believer is that its crap. Built up by elites and then promulgated through an uninformed media. Just like heading footballs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klopphopper View Post
    Not the right person to be debating climate change. Spent a year of my life involved in developing and implementing climate change policy at a government level and my considered opinion after being a believer is that its crap. Built up by elites and then promulgated through an uninformed media. Just like heading footballs.
    Are you an anti-vax guy as well?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Q8reds View Post
    Are you an anti-vax guy as well?
    No it is just the most stupid thing I have ever heard and the most ridiculous thread I have seen on this board.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klopphopper View Post
    No it is just the most stupid thing I have ever heard and the most ridiculous thread I have seen on this board.
    You joined in 2007.. Did you just wake up from a coma ? CTE induced coma ? Because I'm sure you missed alot of threads
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    Maybe just allow heading the ball in the 18 yard box and no heading outside the box. COMPROMISE. Now iv'e sorted out this conundrum , you can close the thread mods
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedBaros View Post
    Why don't you just protest for American football body armour? Then we can safely head the ball, and engage in shoulder tackles without danger of bruising/hurt feelings.
    Wearing all that wouldn't help footballers, they are not the most robust athletes, in fact they are a bit pathetic compared to American football players. When players play with broken ribs, fractured fibula's, a lacerated liver, broken wrists etc you are pretty tough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 31/03/2001 View Post
    Absolutely not, I'm the ultimate risk taker. I'm suggesting a ban to help LFC on the pitch. We always concede goals from headers/crosses/set pieces for like 5 seasons in a row.
    This is right up there with the dumbest things I've seen written on here.

    We've had problems with keepers the last decade. Should we just ban keepers from the game entirely as well so we don't have to deal with it anymore? Can't even follow your argument....you want it banned for health reasons or just because you don't want to deal with working on getting better at defending aerial balls? Baffling.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snippes View Post
    This is right up there with the dumbest things I've seen written on here.

    We've had problems with keepers the last decade. Should we just ban keepers from the game entirely as well so we don't have to deal with it anymore? Can't even follow your argument....you want it banned for health reasons or just because you don't want to deal with working on getting better at defending aerial balls? Baffling.
    He's on a windup.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeepTheFightForJustice View Post
    They're saying that the balls are now hit harder than back then. Which results in harder impact.

    Not saying they're right. Just that was the explanation that I was given when I tweeted Rob Harris.
    interesting comment that one.. considering the ball has to be in the air for someone to head it. hitting it harder may possibly create more force but even that i would dispute as most balls are lofted into the box. either way, the mass of a leather ball in the air compared to a plastic one today i would have to say the leather ball would create more issues cumulatively .
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    There are two separate arguments going on in this thread.

    1. Should we take this sort of injury serious in football

    2. Does this sort of injury actually exist in football


    Currently there is insufficient evidence to indicate a problem existing in football.
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    There are two separate arguments going on in this thread.

    1. Should we take this sort of injury serious in football

    2. Does this sort of injury actually exist in football


    Currently there is insufficient evidence to indicate a problem existing in football.
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    Quote Originally Posted by reallash View Post
    There are two separate arguments going on in this thread.

    1. Should we take this sort of injury serious in football

    2. Does this sort of injury actually exist in football


    Currently there is insufficient evidence to indicate a problem existing in football.
    First of all, it's not an "injury", CTE is a progressive degenerative brain disease. Second, the only way short of football associations voluntarily initiating some sort of examination protocol utilizing CAT scans to determine if active players show early signs is to wait until the brains of dead players are examined. Third, the NFL spent nearly 20 years stalling, deflecting, and denying CTE was even an issue; do we seriously believe that football associations will act differently?

    This is where supporters should be all over the associations DEMANDING that money be invested to fund INDEPENDENT scientific research, but the vast majority won't. They'll be content to overlook preliminary evidence such as the study this thread is based on and proclaim it "insufficient" to force action.
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    GrottonRed is online now LFC Forums Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roshi98 View Post
    First of all, it's not an "injury", CTE is a progressive degenerative brain disease. Second, the only way short of football associations voluntarily initiating some sort of examination protocol utilizing CAT scans to determine if active players show early signs is to wait until the brains of dead players are examined. Third, the NFL spent nearly 20 years stalling, deflecting, and denying CTE was even an issue; do we seriously believe that football associations will act differently?

    This is where supporters should be all over the associations DEMANDING that money be invested to fund INDEPENDENT scientific research, but the vast majority won't. They'll be content to overlook preliminary evidence such as the study this thread is based on and proclaim it "insufficient" to force action.
    It's not a matter for supporters to demand anything.

    Players unions/groups have the power and the money, to push this issue if they so wish...and as it is them that are the most directly affected by this, they should do it.
    Life President of TEPS...The Ellipsis Preservation Society.
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    Every sport has its side effects. A cricket ball can kill as poor old Phil Hughes' family found out. But are you going to ban the bouncer from cricket? No. What sort of half assed game would cricket then be if you did? What sort of game would football be if you could not head the ball? The second major skill in the game taken away? It would be **** and that is why it will never happen and that is why someone should close this blessed thread down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrottonRed View Post
    It's not a matter for supporters to demand anything.

    Players unions/groups have the power and the money, to push this issue if they so wish...and as it is them that are the most directly affected by this, they should do it.
    Absolutely .. and the fact that they aren't - or don't seem to be - indicates their current level of concern about this. And, if the players themselves (who obviously are the ones this would potentially affect) or the PFA are doing nothing about it, why should supporters be concerned or do anything about it?
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  26. #176  
    Red-And-Proud is offline First team regular
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    They could just wear head gear if it was that big a threat, but I doubt it is.
    Klopps beard twin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roshi98 View Post
    So let's just wait for more autopsies to prove CTE is an issue in the game, shall we? Because that's how this works. You don't know definitively until the brain of a dead player is examined. Just let it sink in, what you're dismissing. There's science enough, and the weight of the ball argument is preposterous. CTE isn't simply about the weight of the object or the force of impact one or two times but REPEATED low to moderate concussive and undetectable subconcussive events. It's cumulative. Not all players will get it, but for those who do the resulting physical, cognitive, and behavioral impacts are devastating.
    In the grand scale of things, footballers heading a 14oz bag of air is nothing compared to what goes on in sports like Boxing, MMA, Rugby, Auzzi rules, Ice hockey, Wrestling etc. So are you suggesting if we ban heading a ball that ALL of those sports also need to be banned?
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  28. #178  
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    Quote Originally Posted by BearWithMe View Post
    In the grand scale of things, footballers heading a 14oz bag of air is nothing compared to what goes on in sports like Boxing, MMA, Rugby, Auzzi rules, Ice hockey, Wrestling etc. So are you suggesting if we ban heading a ball that ALL of those sports also need to be banned?
    could you imagine the amounts of built up testosterone in the male community there would be if all these sports were banned, I am not saying these sports help prevent wars on a massive scale but I reckon they do, blokes need to hurt each other or at least see other blokes hurting each other, thats just the way it is.
    Klopps beard twin
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    Don't know is already posted, here is something from Sean Ingle on the topic:

    It has become a depressingly familiar pattern. Dead sportsmen’s brains are sliced up, skewered under a microscope and the evidence of how their professions have wrecked their minds becomes horribly clear. Where American football leads, association football has followed. Last week research from Swansea University and University College London linked chronic, repetitive head impacts with chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE) and dementia in deceased players. Yet the broad direction of travel has long been established even before Jeff Astle’s early death in 2002 was ascribed by a coroner to “industrial disease” from heading heavy footballs.

    No one disputes that this research is necessary and overdue. But the danger of always gazing backwards is that we miss what is in front of us. Fresh research suggests the dangers of heading didn’t disappear with the arrival of lighter and water-resistant balls, and the risks, particularly to children and teenage girls, may be under-appreciated.

    In 2015 I wrote about ground-breaking research from scientists at Purdue University in Indiana which showed that even with modern footballs the forces involved in heading back goal-kicks and long punts were far higher than expected. Some registered at between 50Gs and 100Gs – similar to American football players smashing into each other or punches thrown by boxers.

    The team at Purdue have now discovered another potentially worrying issue: that when teenage girls head a football regularly there is a risk of low‑level brain injuries, which in some cases lasts for four or five months before the brain looks normal on MRI scans. Think about that and ask yourself why, with all the money sloshing around football and flowing into agents’ pockets, aren’t more studies conducted?

    The Purdue blueprint would be a good place to start. Their scientists recruited 26 female high school athletes – 14 of whom played soccer and 12 who did other non-collision sports such as track and field, swimming and basketball – and gave them several MRI scans over the course of a year. The soccer players were scanned before the season started, twice during the season and then two or three times after the season had ended. Each training session and match was also filmed, with players wearing an xPatch sensor behind their right ears, allowing the academics to record the impact of every header and collision greater than 20Gs of force .

    The results were startling. While the soccer players didn’t suffer concussions, some of them developed what researchers called “marked cerebrovascular reactivity changes in the frontotemporal aspects of the brain”, which persisted for several months. “It is a big deal,” Eric Nauman, the director of the human injury research and regenerative technologies laboratory at Purdue, told me. “Some players saw pretty dramatic changes in their cerebral blood flow because of accumulating head impacts. Those levels changed significantly and stayed elevated. That was kind of a shock to us. We knew we would see those changes when we studied American football players but we didn’t in soccer.”

    Nauman’s colleague Tom Talavage says they have as-yet unpublished data that strongly suggest a long-term physiological response to asymptomatic injury taking place – a form of inflammation coupled with elevated blood flow levels – which can be associated with tiredness, lower concentration levels and impaired cognitive function. “This response is arguably a ‘healing’ process but one has to consider the idea that if an adolescent’s brain is expending energy repairing itself, it is unlikely that its development is progressing optimally,” he adds.

    In women’s sports it has long been known soccer has the largest number of traumatic brain injuries annually and has among the highest concussion rates, with rates slightly exceeding men’s football at the collegiate level. But this research shows sub-concussive injuries, from heading footballs, are also a potential issue.

    What exacerbates the problem is that players usually don’t realise their brains have minor damage and so keep on playing, increasing the likelihood of more serious problems. “You can bruise any other part of your body and it feels sore so you lay off that spot,” says Nauman. “But your brain doesn’t have that kind of response.”

    So what should be done? On Friday Uefa promised to undertake a research project which would count the number of times children aged eight to 12, and 14 to 16, head the ball in games and training sessions. But the Purdue scientists consider that insufficient. As they point out, every time kids dive or collide with each other there is a risk of whiplash or other rapid head movement that may well contribute to low-level damage that leads to injury.

    Instead they suggest a number of measures: banning players under 12 from heading the ball – something that already happens in the US – and reducing the severity of such impacts among teenagers by making sure they are not playing and practising headers every day. “People argue that if youngsters can’t head the ball then they don’t learn proper technique but the big point is when you are 12 and under, your neck and shoulders and back aren’t strong enough for you to have proper technique,” says Nauman. But he wants to preserve the game not radically alter it. “It isn’t hard to reduce the head impacts in practice and save them for games. Really it is about giving the brain a chance to rest and recover.”

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  30. #180  
    Red-And-Proud is offline First team regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    Don't know is already posted, here is something from Sean Ingle on the topic:

    It has become a depressingly familiar pattern. Dead sportsmen’s brains are sliced up, skewered under a microscope and the evidence of how their professions have wrecked their minds becomes horribly clear. Where American football leads, association football has followed. Last week research from Swansea University and University College London linked chronic, repetitive head impacts with chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE) and dementia in deceased players. Yet the broad direction of travel has long been established even before Jeff Astle’s early death in 2002 was ascribed by a coroner to “industrial disease” from heading heavy footballs.

    No one disputes that this research is necessary and overdue. But the danger of always gazing backwards is that we miss what is in front of us. Fresh research suggests the dangers of heading didn’t disappear with the arrival of lighter and water-resistant balls, and the risks, particularly to children and teenage girls, may be under-appreciated.

    In 2015 I wrote about ground-breaking research from scientists at Purdue University in Indiana which showed that even with modern footballs the forces involved in heading back goal-kicks and long punts were far higher than expected. Some registered at between 50Gs and 100Gs – similar to American football players smashing into each other or punches thrown by boxers.

    The team at Purdue have now discovered another potentially worrying issue: that when teenage girls head a football regularly there is a risk of low‑level brain injuries, which in some cases lasts for four or five months before the brain looks normal on MRI scans. Think about that and ask yourself why, with all the money sloshing around football and flowing into agents’ pockets, aren’t more studies conducted?

    The Purdue blueprint would be a good place to start. Their scientists recruited 26 female high school athletes – 14 of whom played soccer and 12 who did other non-collision sports such as track and field, swimming and basketball – and gave them several MRI scans over the course of a year. The soccer players were scanned before the season started, twice during the season and then two or three times after the season had ended. Each training session and match was also filmed, with players wearing an xPatch sensor behind their right ears, allowing the academics to record the impact of every header and collision greater than 20Gs of force .

    The results were startling. While the soccer players didn’t suffer concussions, some of them developed what researchers called “marked cerebrovascular reactivity changes in the frontotemporal aspects of the brain”, which persisted for several months. “It is a big deal,” Eric Nauman, the director of the human injury research and regenerative technologies laboratory at Purdue, told me. “Some players saw pretty dramatic changes in their cerebral blood flow because of accumulating head impacts. Those levels changed significantly and stayed elevated. That was kind of a shock to us. We knew we would see those changes when we studied American football players but we didn’t in soccer.”

    Nauman’s colleague Tom Talavage says they have as-yet unpublished data that strongly suggest a long-term physiological response to asymptomatic injury taking place – a form of inflammation coupled with elevated blood flow levels – which can be associated with tiredness, lower concentration levels and impaired cognitive function. “This response is arguably a ‘healing’ process but one has to consider the idea that if an adolescent’s brain is expending energy repairing itself, it is unlikely that its development is progressing optimally,” he adds.

    In women’s sports it has long been known soccer has the largest number of traumatic brain injuries annually and has among the highest concussion rates, with rates slightly exceeding men’s football at the collegiate level. But this research shows sub-concussive injuries, from heading footballs, are also a potential issue.

    What exacerbates the problem is that players usually don’t realise their brains have minor damage and so keep on playing, increasing the likelihood of more serious problems. “You can bruise any other part of your body and it feels sore so you lay off that spot,” says Nauman. “But your brain doesn’t have that kind of response.”

    So what should be done? On Friday Uefa promised to undertake a research project which would count the number of times children aged eight to 12, and 14 to 16, head the ball in games and training sessions. But the Purdue scientists consider that insufficient. As they point out, every time kids dive or collide with each other there is a risk of whiplash or other rapid head movement that may well contribute to low-level damage that leads to injury.

    Instead they suggest a number of measures: banning players under 12 from heading the ball – something that already happens in the US – and reducing the severity of such impacts among teenagers by making sure they are not playing and practising headers every day. “People argue that if youngsters can’t head the ball then they don’t learn proper technique but the big point is when you are 12 and under, your neck and shoulders and back aren’t strong enough for you to have proper technique,” says Nauman. But he wants to preserve the game not radically alter it. “It isn’t hard to reduce the head impacts in practice and save them for games. Really it is about giving the brain a chance to rest and recover.”

    Fair enough doing it with kids under 12, they still have plenty of time to learn heading technique
    Klopps beard twin
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