Notices
Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 205

Thread: Scottish Independence...2nd Referendum?

  1. #31  
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    57,345
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyZidane View Post
    Large parts of Northern England haven't either.
    If Scotland becomes independent, then what is going to happen as regards borders on the independence day?. Are there going to be border controls checking people?. Who is allowed to cross over and who is classed as Scottish anyway as there is no Scottish passport just a British one?. What happens to the probable millions of Scots living in England, Wales, Ireland or anywhere else if they want to cross back over - how do they prove they are Scottish and why do they not get a vote in the referendum?. For that matter, do non-Scots who just happen to live in Scotland get a vote?.
    I think you would probably know that this has happened in many countries before and they managed to do it, most of them in far more challenging circumstances. So all of that is a moot point really.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  2. #32  
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    4,983
    Quote Originally Posted by DantesShadow View Post
    I agree that I am not sure an independent scottish state would face the same opposition by the EU for entry as if it was a country within the UK. Though there might be a fear that if scotland subsequently is successful, then it presents a symbol for other independence movements that life can be better.
    Let the English vote as well and send the bells off to starve
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  3. #33  
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    5,964
    Quote Originally Posted by hysen View Post
    Let the English vote as well and send the bells off to starve
    that would save a lot of hassle
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  4. #34  
    shody1976 is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    42,519
    Quote Originally Posted by Alon1 View Post
    I think all of that is anecdotic and meaningless in the grand scheme of things. At the end of the day is a matter of whether the Scottish people want to be independent or not, most countries in this world have achieved independence through war, they fought hard for it and the last thing they thought about it was whether they were going to be better financially because wasn't the priority. Nobody can predict if in the long term Scotland will be better off or not, the likelihood is that over a period of time will be and other times will not, so is a completely waste of time to make a decision based on that.
    I've no issues with Scotland wanting independence, nor do I have any issues with a 2nd referendum for them. It's up to them to determine their own destiny, no-one else.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  5. #35  
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    4,164
    Quote Originally Posted by Alon1 View Post
    I think all of that is anecdotic and meaningless in the grand scheme of things. At the end of the day is a matter of whether the Scottish people want to be independent or not, most countries in this world have achieved independence through war, they fought hard for it and the last thing they thought about it was whether they were going to be better financially because wasn't the priority. Nobody can predict if in the long term Scotland will be better off or not, the likelihood is that over a period of time will be and other times will not, so is a completely waste of time to make a decision based on that.
    So who are the Scottish people as there is no Scottish passport?.
    I have Scottish ancestors and a Scottish surname, but was born in England so I dont consider myself to be Scottish, but I'm a damn sight more Scottish than somebody who just goes to live there just before the referendum and gets a vote.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  6. #36  
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    5,964
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyZidane View Post
    So who are the Scottish people as there is no Scottish passport?.
    I have Scottish ancestors and a Scottish surname, but was born in England so I dont consider myself to be Scottish, but I'm a damn sight more Scottish than somebody who just goes to live there just before the referendum and gets a vote.
    your acting like it's so complex to find out who's scottish or not , it'll say on your current british passport where in britain you were born that's a start and if any non-scot is residing in scotland they should be allowed to vote just like any other person living in other countries can do.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  7. #37  
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    57,345
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyZidane View Post
    So who are the Scottish people as there is no Scottish passport?.
    I have Scottish ancestors and a Scottish surname, but was born in England so I dont consider myself to be Scottish, but I'm a damn sight more Scottish than somebody who just goes to live there just before the referendum and gets a vote.
    I don't know how it was determined last time around but I would imagine they would do exactly the same thing.
    Last edited by Alon1; 14-3-17 at 15:02.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  8. #38  
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    41
    believe it or not, people that i know always thought scotland was a country, they would have never thought of scotland as being part of UK or GB.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  9. #39  
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    2,591
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountstmarys View Post
    believe it or not, people that i know always thought scotland was a country, they would have never thought of scotland as being part of UK or GB.
    It is a country
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  10. #40  
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    57,345
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountstmarys View Post
    believe it or not, people that i know always thought scotland was a country, they would have never thought of scotland as being part of UK or GB.
    The definition of a country is quite broad. One thing is for sure is not a sovereign state and is not in the official list of countries of the world:

    http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworl..._the_world.htm
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  11. #41  
    GrottonRed is online now LFC Forums Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    20,183
    (all posts earlier than this were moved from the first thread)
    Last edited by GrottonRed; 14-3-17 at 17:53.
    Life President of TEPS...The Ellipsis Preservation Society.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  12. #42  
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    8,563
    Important questions still stand.

    1- The SNP have claimed that an independent Scotland will still use the British pound, so what makes them think the British people would even want such a union? Would they be asked for permission in a referendum on currency union? What if they say no? What currency will Scotland use then?

    2- The SNP have claimed that the monetary policy of an independent Scotland would remain the responsibility of the Bank of England. What sense does it make for Scotland's monetary policy to be determined by the central bank of a foreign nation?

    3- Scotland's economy is overwhelmingly based on trade with the rest of the United Kingdom. How is it not contradictory to argue in favour of the European single market, but be ardently opposed to a British single market that Scotland's economy is dependent upon?

    4- If Scotland becomes independent, and Shetland and Orkney want referendums of their own regarding independence or re-union with the United Kingdom, would the Scottish government allow it?

    5- If Scotland votes yes for independence, then a few years down the line, public opinion turns and the majority of Scots want to rejoin the United Kingdom, would the SNP support another referendum? If not, then why is a "no" result temporary, but a "yes" result permanent?

    6- If Scotland votes no again, will the SNP finally accept that this is the will of the Scottish people, or will it again be just a temporary condition until they agitate for one referendum after another until they get the result they want?
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  13. #43  
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    18,671
    I voted no last time but I will be voting yes this time. A hard Tory brexit isn't something I want any part of.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  14. #44  
    shody1976 is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    42,519
    Quote Originally Posted by -Chris- View Post
    I voted no last time but I will be voting yes this time. A hard Tory brexit isn't something I want any part of.
    What do you think your chances will be of re-entry to the EU as an independent nation?
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  15. #45  
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    18,671
    Quote Originally Posted by shody1976 View Post
    What do you think your chances will be of re-entry to the EU as an independent nation?
    I think they will be fairly high to be honest but there's always a risk. If we stay in the union we won't be in the EU. If we go independent we may be in the union. There's other factors as well though. For example I trust the SNP more to run Scotland than I do the conservatives to run the UK. And I'm not an SNP voter either.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  16. #46  
    shody1976 is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    42,519
    Quote Originally Posted by -Chris- View Post
    I think they will be fairly high to be honest but there's always a risk. If we stay in the union we won't be in the EU. If we go independent we may be in the union. There's other factors as well though. For example I trust the SNP more to run Scotland than I do the conservatives to run the UK. And I'm not an SNP voter either.
    Fair enough.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  17. #47  
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    57,345
    Quote Originally Posted by White Star Line View Post
    Important questions still stand.

    1- The SNP have claimed that an independent Scotland will still use the British pound, so what makes them think the British people would even want such a union? Would they be asked for permission in a referendum on currency union? What if they say no? What currency will Scotland use then?

    2- The SNP have claimed that the monetary policy of an independent Scotland would remain the responsibility of the Bank of England. What sense does it make for Scotland's monetary policy to be determined by the central bank of a foreign nation?

    3- Scotland's economy is overwhelmingly based on trade with the rest of the United Kingdom. How is it not contradictory to argue in favour of the European single market, but be ardently opposed to a British single market that Scotland's economy is dependent upon?

    4- If Scotland becomes independent, and Shetland and Orkney want referendums of their own regarding independence or re-union with the United Kingdom, would the Scottish government allow it?

    5- If Scotland votes yes for independence, then a few years down the line, public opinion turns and the majority of Scots want to rejoin the United Kingdom, would the SNP support another referendum? If not, then why is a "no" result temporary, but a "yes" result permanent?

    6- If Scotland votes no again, will the SNP finally accept that this is the will of the Scottish people, or will it again be just a temporary condition until they agitate for one referendum after another until they get the result they want?
    Man, all of this stuff is a stroll in the park compared to how most countries gained independence. I am not talking about stuff that happened 100 years ago, just look at it how the last country to become independent did it.

    If Scotland wants to join the EU then most likely will have to take the Euro anyway, so it makes sense they take it from the start. That way they may even accept their notes outside their country, for once.

    You may say "but they are not there and won't be for almost a decade at least" well it doesn't matter just look at what countries like Andorra or Montenegro have done and they have not even applied to join the EU. I think that probably answers your second question too.

    Yes, Scotland mainly trades with the rest of the UK, Slovakia used to trade just with Czech Republic and they still trade a lot together but nowhere near as much. Same applies to Ireland and the UK. In time trade flows would shrink as Scotland will start trading more with other countries, that's not rocket science. I reckon most the stuff that is traded is not made/produced in the UK in the first place, just transported internally.

    Scotland will only have a land border with England, that's not going to change in the next few mileniums at least so heavy trade would continue, although yes if Scotland wants to join the EU then it will have to adhere to whatever trade agreement with the UK is in place at the time.

    Point number 4, is this hypothetical or is a real scenario? That would be their problem and who cares what happens to 7 farmers and 25 cows anyway.

    Point number 5 and 6, I can't remember of any case of any country doing that in the past, so when is done is done. That's the problem with the new generation, they think they can do and undo things with referendums. If we like it great, if not let's just do another referendum. It is becoming a bit of a joke to be honest.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  18. #48  
    GrottonRed is online now LFC Forums Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    20,183
    Maybe have a referendum about whether to hold referendums...

    They don't seem to go that well for those that call them...so why bother.

    Those that suggest them should just resign from public office and never work in politics again...which is normally the outcome anyway.
    Life President of TEPS...The Ellipsis Preservation Society.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  19. #49  
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,419
    Quote Originally Posted by shody1976 View Post
    Give Sturgeon the referendum she wants and if the Scots want to leave, then let them. No-one should stand in their way.
    Except someone is standing in their way..an unelected PM who thinks the SNP have tunnel vision. A better example of pot, kettle, black ive yet to see.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  20. #50  
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    936
    Quote Originally Posted by GrottonRed View Post
    The Scottish right to a vote for independence is enshrined in law.

    And once it becomes clear that the likes of Spain are going to veto Scotland joining the EU separately, you'd expect the Scots to vote for the union of the UK anyway.
    This Spanish veto thing is a myth. An MEP from Spain's ruling party said so just the other day. They have no reason to want to block an independent Scotland's membership of the EU.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  21. #51  
    GrottonRed is online now LFC Forums Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    20,183
    Quote Originally Posted by sundaypost View Post
    This Spanish veto thing is a myth. An MEP from Spain's ruling party said so just the other day. They have no reason to want to block an independent Scotland's membership of the EU.
    Maybe,

    But default membership after Brexit, certainly isn't something that can be promised in a referendum campaign.

    So there's no need to rush into it.

    If it becomes inevitable we'll end up with no deal and WTO, then go for it.

    A clean break and total economic and monetary independence is the way I'd want it.

    There's no point having an half arsed version...
    Life President of TEPS...The Ellipsis Preservation Society.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  22. #52  
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    2,591
    Quote Originally Posted by sundaypost View Post
    This Spanish veto thing is a myth. An MEP from Spain's ruling party said so just the other day. They have no reason to want to block an independent Scotland's membership of the EU.
    The EU should be careful meddling with the UKs internal affairs. That will be seen as a big no-no by all. If they rile scotland for they negotiation hand, we will just be pushed more towards the US (and then can the EU really complain if trump, Putin or others want to meddle in the EU?)
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  23. #53  
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    2,591
    Quote Originally Posted by Alon1 View Post
    Man, all of this stuff is a stroll in the park compared to how most countries gained independence. I am not talking about stuff that happened 100 years ago, just look at it how the last country to become independent did it.

    If Scotland wants to join the EU then most likely will have to take the Euro anyway, so it makes sense they take it from the start. That way they may even accept their notes outside their country, for once.

    You may say "but they are not there and won't be for almost a decade at least" well it doesn't matter just look at what countries like Andorra or Montenegro have done and they have not even applied to join the EU. I think that probably answers your second question too.

    Yes, Scotland mainly trades with the rest of the UK, Slovakia used to trade just with Czech Republic and they still trade a lot together but nowhere near as much. Same applies to Ireland and the UK. In time trade flows would shrink as Scotland will start trading more with other countries, that's not rocket science. I reckon most the stuff that is traded is not made/produced in the UK in the first place, just transported internally.

    Scotland will only have a land border with England, that's not going to change in the next few mileniums at least so heavy trade would continue, although yes if Scotland wants to join the EU then it will have to adhere to whatever trade agreement with the UK is in place at the time.

    Point number 4, is this hypothetical or is a real scenario? That would be their problem and who cares what happens to 7 farmers and 25 cows anyway.

    Point number 5 and 6, I can't remember of any case of any country doing that in the past, so when is done is done. That's the problem with the new generation, they think they can do and undo things with referendums. If we like it great, if not let's just do another referendum. It is becoming a bit of a joke to be honest.
    They will have a lot of the oil so i presume scotland cares. And their populations size is irrelevant - how would scotland like it if independence was not offered due to its size? It (shetland/orkney) could be a UK overseas terroitory or dependency
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  24. #54  
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    8,563
    Man, all of this stuff is a stroll in the park compared to how most countries gained independence. I am not talking about stuff that happened 100 years ago, just look at it how the last country to become independent did it.
    SNP slogan - "It won't be as bad as South Sudan!"

    That should inspire confidence.

    If Scotland wants to join the EU then most likely will have to take the Euro anyway, so it makes sense they take it from the start. That way they may even accept their notes outside their country, for once.
    Then the SNP should make "Independence = Euro" part of their campaign to be as transparent as possible.

    You may say "but they are not there and won't be for almost a decade at least" well it doesn't matter just look at what countries like Andorra or Montenegro have done and they have not even applied to join the EU.
    Montenegro applied for EU membership in 2008, and Andorra is part of the eurozone.

    Yes, Scotland mainly trades with the rest of the UK, Slovakia used to trade just with Czech Republic and they still trade a lot together but nowhere near as much. Same applies to Ireland and the UK. In time trade flows would shrink as Scotland will start trading more with other countries, that's not rocket science. I reckon most the stuff that is traded is not made/produced in the UK in the first place, just transported internally.
    Slovakia's growth had more to do with moving from communism to capitalism, rather than independence. ROI's economy went through a crisis not less than a decade ago and needed IMF, EU and British assistance to recover from it.

    Point number 4, is this hypothetical or is a real scenario? That would be their problem and who cares what happens to 7 farmers and 25 cows anyway.
    Yep. 7 farmers, 25 cows and massive oilfields.

    No big deal.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  25. #55  
    shody1976 is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    42,519
    Quote Originally Posted by sundaypost View Post
    This Spanish veto thing is a myth. An MEP from Spain's ruling party said so just the other day. They have no reason to want to block an independent Scotland's membership of the EU.
    They have both the Catalans and Basques vying for independence. Scotland gaining entry to the EU as an independent nation will make things very difficult for the government in Madrid. Don't be deluded.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  26. #56  
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    2,401
    Bring it on, I say.
    I voted Yes last time and will do so again.
    The whole Brexit thing totally legitimizes having a second referendum, though it's not certain that the majority of people living in Scotland particularly desire one.
    However, last time round people got really politicised, it was quite inspiring, so I could see that happening again.
    It already dominated our lunch time discussions at work today
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  27. #57  
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    57,345
    Quote Originally Posted by sundaypost View Post
    This Spanish veto thing is a myth. An MEP from Spain's ruling party said so just the other day. They have no reason to want to block an independent Scotland's membership of the EU.
    Yes , they just made it up to be honest. The Spanish government has never said they would block Scotland application.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  28. #58  
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    10,658
    Il be glad of when Scotland go independent can't handle any more of Nicola Sturgeon.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  29. #59  
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    57,345
    Quote Originally Posted by GrottonRed View Post
    Maybe,

    But default membership after Brexit, certainly isn't something that can be promised in a referendum campaign.

    So there's no need to rush into it.

    If it becomes inevitable we'll end up with no deal and WTO, then go for it.

    A clean break and total economic and monetary independence is the way I'd want it.

    There's no point having an half arsed version...
    But trading in WTO wouldn't be a clean break would. It? Stopping trading and travelling all together would be a clean break.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  30. #60  
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    57,345
    Quote Originally Posted by White Star Line View Post
    SNP slogan - "It won't be as bad as South Sudan!"

    That should inspire confidence.



    Then the SNP should make "Independence = Euro" part of their campaign to be as transparent as possible.



    Montenegro applied for EU membership in 2008, and Andorra is part of the eurozone.



    Slovakia's growth had more to do with moving from communism to capitalism, rather than independence. ROI's economy went through a crisis not less than a decade ago and needed IMF, EU and British assistance to recover from it.



    Yep. 7 farmers, 25 cows and massive oilfields.

    No big deal.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurozone

    When did I say that Slovakia started to grow thanks to the independance? I did say that they started to trade more with other countries.

    No idea what the crisis in Ireland in 2008 has to do with them becoming independent 90 years earlier. do you mean they shouldn't have become independent in the first place? Bizarre reasoning.

    At current oil prices these oilfields are worth very little plus i wouldnt call that massive, in fact compared to the major producers they are diminute.
    Last edited by Alon1; 14-3-17 at 21:07.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   



Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •