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Thread: Scottish Independence...2nd Referendum?

  1. #61  
    GrottonRed is online now LFC Forums Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alon1 View Post
    But trading in WTO wouldn't be a clean break would. It? Stopping trading and travelling all together would be a clean break.
    I'm talking about Scotland.

    If they want independence it should be full on.

    No pound, no BOE etc.
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  2. #62  
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    Quote Originally Posted by blaze31 View Post
    Il be glad of when Scotland go independent can't handle any more of Nicola Sturgeon.
    When she tweeted there would be an announcement, I thought she was reforming the Krankies...
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  3. #63  
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrottonRed View Post
    I'm talking about Scotland.

    If they want independence it should be full on.

    No pound, no BOE etc.
    Yup

    Bring back to UK as in Nl, Wales and England ship building and everything relating to the defence sector.
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    Quote Originally Posted by blaze31 View Post
    Yup

    Bring back to UK as in Nl, Wales and England ship building and everything relating to the defence sector.
    Ship building?
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    Quote Originally Posted by blaze31 View Post
    Yup

    Bring back to UK as in Nl, Wales and England ship building and everything relating to the defence sector.
    And the nuclear weapons?
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrottonRed View Post
    I'm talking about Scotland.

    If they want independence it should be full on.

    No pound, no BOE etc.
    The pound is as much Scotland's as it is England's.
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Chris- View Post
    And the nuclear weapons?
    Yeah sure why not! bring it all back to the UK and the 10s of thousands jobs that go with it all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by blaze31 View Post
    Yeah sure why not! bring it all back to the UK and the 10s of thousands jobs that go with it all.
    There really aren't that many jobs tied to them. Can't remember the exact figures but it's surprising how few there are.
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  9. #69  
    GrottonRed is online now LFC Forums Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Chris- View Post
    The pound is as much Scotland's as it is England's.
    It is.

    But it's the UK's more.

    Independence means exactly that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by blaze31 View Post
    Yeah sure why not! bring it all back to the UK and the 10s of thousands jobs that go with it all.
    Perfect. They can store them on the Thames then.

    The amount of jobs that go compared to the actual cost of the things will be a tiny percentage.
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    no thanks ,, weill have every immigrant. tom **** and harry coming up here , baws to that
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrottonRed View Post
    It is.

    But it's the UK's more.

    Independence means exactly that.
    I don't see why we can't share a currency? England would expect us to take our share of the debt but you can't have it both ways. It can't be the UK's pound but not the UK's debt.
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  13. #73  
    GrottonRed is online now LFC Forums Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Chris- View Post
    I don't see why we can't share a currency? England would expect us to take our share of the debt but you can't have it both ways. It can't be the UK's pound but not the UK's debt.
    Of course it can.

    Those are the terms of leaving the Union.

    You can't expect the rest of the UK to suffer if Independence tanks and takes the currency with it.

    Don't get me wrong, I think it is quite right for Scotland to go it alone if they so wish.

    But they have to be prepared for what that entails.
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Chris- View Post
    Perfect. They can store them on the Thames then.

    The amount of jobs that go compared to the actual cost of the things will be a tiny percentage.
    Il take them here in Wales, along with building the new naval ships.
    Be a good boost to the Welsh economy with thousands of jobs moved from Scotland down here.

    Perfect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by blaze31 View Post
    Il take them here in Wales, along with building the new naval ships.
    Be a good boost to the Welsh economy with thousands of jobs moved from Scotland down here.

    Perfect.
    I have no idea why anyone would want nuclear weapons on their front door but each to their own I guess.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrottonRed View Post
    I'm talking about Scotland.

    If they want independence it should be full on.

    No pound, no BOE etc.
    You like this WTO thing, don't you?


    You know that the UK is already trading on WTO trading terms with a number of countries?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alon1 View Post
    Yes , they just made it up to be honest. The Spanish government has never said they would block Scotland application.
    Search 'Barroso doctrine' - it's real and will apply..

    As Shiny says, Independence is indeed the talk of the town at the moment, most people are discussing it today but not many in a positive manner - mostly people's anger that Sturgeon, the one trick pony, has once again put personal politics before the well being of her country.. She deliberately chose the timing to take the headlines from the Lords vote and plaster her face on to TV screens and newspapers across the country.. The woman has an ego the the size of Ben Nevis, in common with her predecessor..

    Shiny is also correct that the last referendum (2014) politicised many Scots - however, politicising is only beneficial if it is based in fact and reality, not pride and passion.. during the last campaign many people (Yes voters) were swept away on a nationalist wave of unwarranted optimism by lying Nationalist politicians and cyber-activists.. They promised prosperity based largely on an oil boom and renewable energy while conveniently ignoring the currency issue, the UK trade issue, the NATO issue, the Debt issue, the structural deficit issue (highest in Europe if I am not mistaken) - I remember Salmond's response when questioned about the pitfalls of using Sterling post-Independence, "Tosh, we'll use our pound if we want to!" - In one glib sentence he somehow changed what in reality is a glaring case against Independence, into a case for it - and astonishingly, many believed him and voted Yes!.. that is politicising alright, making people believe in a falsehood, or worse, that the falsehood is somehow beneficial.. It was the SNP 'driving the bus towards the cliff' in 2014 and if they had gotten their way we would have been staring at a 15bn black-hole in our finances.. not fear-mongering, not fake news, not Westmonster lies - Fifteen Billion Pounds! - Go check the accounts, they are there and they are very real..

    Now I know it's unpalatable for Scots to hear that we need our rUK neighbours, (especially England) - it's a dagger to the heart, as it implies that we are dependent, weak somehow - but that is not the case, we need each other, equally, the strength is in our unity and we will not see it until it's gone.. It is simple - the case for Independence cannot be made on economic grounds - it just doesn't exist, whether inside or outside the EU - and for anyone who has a job, mortgage or family, this is the only rational conclusion..

    Which brings me to my final point - there is an important fact that people should understand about the SNP because it seems to me that their cute and cuddly front fools people - they do not want Independence because they think it will be better for Scotland - they want Independence regardless of whether it is better or not - they would watch the country burn for the chance to rule over the ashes.. Their actions this week prove it - they want to damage the UK, the negotiations, and the final agreement - for their own self-interest - not yours, or mine..

    I will be voting NO and I just hope Scots live up to their reputation of canniness, because the future looks bleak otherwise..
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiny65 View Post
    Bring it on, I say.
    I voted Yes last time and will do so again.
    The whole Brexit thing totally legitimizes having a second referendum, though it's not certain that the majority of people living in Scotland particularly desire one.
    However, last time round people got really politicised, it was quite inspiring, so I could see that happening again.
    It already dominated our lunch time discussions at work today
    i'm unsure about what will happen, but you know in scotland certain people will just not budge on their stance, i.e people so determined to say they are british that it totally clouds their views.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerrard-2005 View Post
    Search 'Barroso doctrine' - it's real and will apply..

    As Shiny says, Independence is indeed the talk of the town at the moment, most people are discussing it today but not many in a positive manner - mostly people's anger that Sturgeon, the one trick pony, has once again put personal politics before the well being of her country.. She deliberately chose the timing to take the headlines from the Lords vote and plaster her face on to TV screens and newspapers across the country.. The woman has an ego the the size of Ben Nevis, in common with her predecessor..

    Shiny is also correct that the last referendum (2014) politicised many Scots - however, politicising is only beneficial if it is based in fact and reality, not pride and passion.. during the last campaign many people (Yes voters) were swept away on a nationalist wave of unwarranted optimism by lying Nationalist politicians and cyber-activists.. They promised prosperity based largely on an oil boom and renewable energy while conveniently ignoring the currency issue, the UK trade issue, the NATO issue, the Debt issue, the structural deficit issue (highest in Europe if I am not mistaken) - I remember Salmond's response when questioned about the pitfalls of using Sterling post-Independence, "Tosh, we'll use our pound if we want to!" - In one glib sentence he somehow changed what in reality is a glaring case against Independence, into a case for it - and astonishingly, many believed him and voted Yes!.. that is politicising alright, making people believe in a falsehood, or worse, that the falsehood is somehow beneficial.. It was the SNP 'driving the bus towards the cliff' in 2014 and if they had gotten their way we would have been staring at a 15bn black-hole in our finances.. not fear-mongering, not fake news, not Westmonster lies - Fifteen Billion Pounds! - Go check the accounts, they are there and they are very real..

    Now I know it's unpalatable for Scots to hear that we need our rUK neighbours, (especially England) - it's a dagger to the heart, as it implies that we are dependent, weak somehow - but that is not the case, we need each other, equally, the strength is in our unity and we will not see it until it's gone.. It is simple - the case for Independence cannot be made on economic grounds - it just doesn't exist, whether inside or outside the EU - and for anyone who has a job, mortgage or family, this is the only rational conclusion..

    Which brings me to my final point - there is an important fact that people should understand about the SNP because it seems to me that their cute and cuddly front fools people - they do not want Independence because they think it will be better for Scotland - they want Independence regardless of whether it is better or not - they would watch the country burn for the chance to rule over the ashes.. Their actions this week prove it - they want to damage the UK, the negotiations, and the final agreement - for their own self-interest - not yours, or mine..

    I will be voting NO and I just hope Scots live up to their reputation of canniness, because the future looks bleak otherwise..
    I think I have explained this already here but I will do it once again. If a region of any EU country becomes independent then they will need to reapply to join the EU. Yes, this is called doctrine Barroso but he is not Spanish by the way. So this is not Spain blocking Scotland stayingt in he EU, it is part of the EU law.

    What I said is that Spain wouldn't block Scotland joining the EU (please note that I said joining and not staying which is a different thing). How long that would take? The average is about 10 years.

    I have read some suggestions that Scotland could stay part of the EEA, well this is a possibility I guess but EEA members don't get any subsidies from the EU, in fact they need to contribute to the EU budget to keep access to the single market.

    I have already said that the economic argument is a flawed one. There will be years where Scotland will be growing more than the UK and others that will be the other way around, this is impossible to predict in the long term as there are too many variables, so it is pointless to discuss it. At the end of the day is about each individual to decide whether they want to be part of the United Kingdom or become an independent country. You either feel British or you don't.
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    scotland should give us another chance. if in 10 years they are still being shunned by westminster then break off from a united kingdom
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLiddellGreates View Post
    scotland should give us another chance. if in 10 years they are still being shunned by westminster then break off from a united kingdom
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Chris- View Post
    The pound is as much Scotland's as it is England's.
    I thought the history of Scotland started in Britannia ak England

    When the Romans invaded many Battalion left England go north of the border where the Romans built Hadrian's Wall

    here they met up with the Irish druids.

    And then wasn't it the king Longshanks flooded Scotland with all the English Lords try destroy Scotland within
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    When did I say that Slovakia started to grow thanks to the independance? I did say that they started to trade more with other countries.
    Without wider context. It wasn't just independence, but a complete change in their entire economic ideology.

    No idea what the crisis in Ireland in 2008 has to do with them becoming independent 90 years earlier. do you mean they shouldn't have become independent in the first place? Bizarre reasoning.
    When they independent, they had their own currency, then joined the euro. If that's the SNP plan, they should be clear about it.

    At current oil prices these oilfields are worth very little plus i wouldnt call that massive, in fact compared to the major producers they are diminute.
    Well then, Scotland won't miss them then if they themselves seek and achieve independence. Sturgeon should mention that too.

    Il take them here in Wales, along with building the new naval ships.
    Be a good boost to the Welsh economy with thousands of jobs moved from Scotland down here.

    Perfect.
    Milford Haven has been suggested, but I'd say Plymouth is more likely.
    Last edited by White Star Line; 15-3-17 at 16:42.
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    Quote Originally Posted by blaze31 View Post
    Yup

    Bring back to UK as in Nl, Wales and England ship building and everything relating to the defence sector.
    Well considering before Scotland asking for another referendum Portsmouth closed it's Harbour and hundreds of thousands of jobs were lost
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerrard-2005 View Post
    Search 'Barroso doctrine' - it's real and will apply..

    As Shiny says, Independence is indeed the talk of the town at the moment, most people are discussing it today but not many in a positive manner - mostly people's anger that Sturgeon, the one trick pony, has once again put personal politics before the well being of her country.. She deliberately chose the timing to take the headlines from the Lords vote and plaster her face on to TV screens and newspapers across the country.. The woman has an ego the the size of Ben Nevis, in common with her predecessor..

    Shiny is also correct that the last referendum (2014) politicised many Scots - however, politicising is only beneficial if it is based in fact and reality, not pride and passion.. during the last campaign many people (Yes voters) were swept away on a nationalist wave of unwarranted optimism by lying Nationalist politicians and cyber-activists.. They promised prosperity based largely on an oil boom and renewable energy while conveniently ignoring the currency issue, the UK trade issue, the NATO issue, the Debt issue, the structural deficit issue (highest in Europe if I am not mistaken) - I remember Salmond's response when questioned about the pitfalls of using Sterling post-Independence, "Tosh, we'll use our pound if we want to!" - In one glib sentence he somehow changed what in reality is a glaring case against Independence, into a case for it - and astonishingly, many believed him and voted Yes!.. that is politicising alright, making people believe in a falsehood, or worse, that the falsehood is somehow beneficial.. It was the SNP 'driving the bus towards the cliff' in 2014 and if they had gotten their way we would have been staring at a 15bn black-hole in our finances.. not fear-mongering, not fake news, not Westmonster lies - Fifteen Billion Pounds! - Go check the accounts, they are there and they are very real..

    Now I know it's unpalatable for Scots to hear that we need our rUK neighbours, (especially England) - it's a dagger to the heart, as it implies that we are dependent, weak somehow - but that is not the case, we need each other, equally, the strength is in our unity and we will not see it until it's gone.. It is simple - the case for Independence cannot be made on economic grounds - it just doesn't exist, whether inside or outside the EU - and for anyone who has a job, mortgage or family, this is the only rational conclusion..

    Which brings me to my final point - there is an important fact that people should understand about the SNP because it seems to me that their cute and cuddly front fools people - they do not want Independence because they think it will be better for Scotland - they want Independence regardless of whether it is better or not - they would watch the country burn for the chance to rule over the ashes.. Their actions this week prove it - they want to damage the UK, the negotiations, and the final agreement - for their own self-interest - not yours, or mine..

    I will be voting NO and I just hope Scots live up to their reputation of canniness, because the future looks bleak otherwise..
    You say all this like we would be leaving a shining example of economic success and stability when we become independent. The UK has one of the worst performing economies in the world and is trillions in debt, not billions, trillions, and the likeliehood is it will get even worse after brexit. I think I'd rather take my chances on Scotland's economy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sundaypost View Post
    You say all this like we would be leaving a shining example of economic success and stability when we become independent. The UK has one of the worst performing economies in the world and is trillions in debt, not billions, trillions, and the likeliehood is it will get even worse after brexit. I think I'd rather take my chances on Scotland's economy.
    I agree. A smaller economy, outside its main trading bloc, with no currency, no central bank, and volatile oil prices, is a far lesser risk.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyMc9 View Post
    i'm unsure about what will happen, but you know in scotland certain people will just not budge on their stance, i.e people so determined to say they are british that it totally clouds their views.
    This is genuinely the first time I have heard this argument!? - do you honestly believe that there are Scots who are more proud to be British?

    Or are you saying that a Scot cannot be a proud Scot if he/she also considers themselves to be British?.. are the two things mutually exclusive?..
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    Quote Originally Posted by White Star Line View Post
    I agree. A smaller economy, outside its main trading bloc, with no currency, no central bank, and volatile oil prices, is a far lesser risk.
    I think the question has to be, if all Scotland has is oil which as you say is volatile then why is Westminster so desperate to keep us?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sundaypost View Post
    You say all this like we would be leaving a shining example of economic success and stability when we become independent. The UK has one of the worst performing economies in the world and is trillions in debt, not billions, trillions, and the likeliehood is it will get even worse after brexit. I think I'd rather take my chances on Scotland's economy.
    Well the UK is the fastest growing of the G7 economies..

    The debt is 1.7 Trillion of which roughly 10% belongs to the Scottish taxpayer..

    The UK fiscal deficit is circa 3.3% - Scotland's circa 9.7%..

    Public spending in Scotland is 1000 per head higher than in England - imagine it were the other way round!

    I could go on but why bother - people already have their minds made up and if there is one thing 2014 taught me, is that the facts don't matter to the converted..
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    Good on them.

    Wish I could get out too.
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