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Thread: Scottish Independence...2nd Referendum?

  1. #1 Default Scottish Independence...2nd Referendum? 
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    So about 2.5 years after a once in a generation vote Sturgeon has confirmed that she will be asking if Scotland want independence.

    Whilst there are a couple of issues that need to be confirmed (a vote in Holyrood and permission from Westminster) the vote is planned for autumn 18 to spring 19.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-39255181

    Sturgeon argues that brexit is a material change so Scotland should have the opportunity with the Westminster government not listening to their suggestions of a post brexit UK. However the economic case has worsened, May has to act in the interest of the whole UK not a corner of it and Sturgeon will have to walk a fine line to convince those who voted yes/leave as they would need to weigh up whether they vote for independence and see Scotland leave one union in favour of another or vote to stay in the UK and bide their time for an independence vote which means Scotland will be fully independent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul143 View Post
    So about 2.5 years after a once in a generation vote Sturgeon has confirmed that she will be asking if Scotland want independence.

    Whilst there are a couple of issues that need to be confirmed (a vote in Holyrood and permission from Westminster) the vote is planned for autumn 18 to spring 19.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-39255181

    Sturgeon argues that brexit is a material change so Scotland should have the opportunity with the Westminster government not listening to their suggestions of a post brexit UK. However the economic case has worsened, May has to act in the interest of the whole UK not a corner of it and Sturgeon will have to walk a fine line to convince those who voted yes/leave as they would need to weigh up whether they vote for independence and see Scotland leave one union in favour of another or vote to stay in the UK and bide their time for an independence vote which means Scotland will be fully independent.
    In that case, then the Brexit referendum should also be put to a second vote. Scotland not being part of the UK as it leaves the EU is also a material change to the decision.

    People can't choose which votes to listen and not listen to the majority voters.
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    GrottonRed is online now LFC Forums Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by scousechrisj View Post
    In that case, then the Brexit referendum should also be put to a second vote. Scotland not being part of the UK as it leaves the EU is also a material change to the decision.

    People can't choose which votes to listen and not listen to the majority voters.
    The Scottish right to a vote for independence is enshrined in law.

    And once it becomes clear that the likes of Spain are going to veto Scotland joining the EU separately, you'd expect the Scots to vote for the union of the UK anyway.
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  4. #4  
    shody1976 is online now First team regular
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    Give Sturgeon the referendum she wants and if the Scots want to leave, then let them. No-one should stand in their way.
    Last edited by shody1976; 14-3-17 at 08:24.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrottonRed View Post
    The Scottish right to a vote for independence is enshrined in law.

    And once it becomes clear that the likes of Spain are going to veto Scotland joining the EU separately, you'd expect the Scots to vote for the union of the UK anyway.
    Yes, they had their vote as enshrined in law... and in the words of most Brexit voters, the "people have spoken" and voted to stay in the UK union. The situation has now changed since that vote according to Sturgeon however, with a potential departure from the EU. If that mindset stands for the Scottish referendum, why not for the EU one, given if Scotland leave the union, that is a very different proposition to our departure from the EU. Both decisions are linked (as I have said in another thread):

    - Both are decisions are about the separation of two bodies, binded by geography, economic and political inter-dependencies, through the drive for nationalistic independence.
    - Both decisions are inter-related, given the make up of the UK (both geographically economically) will have been a contributing factor to the other (would UK voters have wanted a Scotland-less UK to leave the EU; would Scottish voters have wanted a EU-less UK union).

    So it is very much a similar situation. Either both decisions should be revisited or neither.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shody1976 View Post
    Give Sturgeon the referendum she wants and if the Scots want to leave, then let them. No-one should stand in their way.
    Given this is a vote that will affect the union of the whole UK, why should it just be Scots that get to vote?
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  7. #7  
    GrottonRed is online now LFC Forums Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by scousechrisj View Post
    Given this is a vote that will affect the union of the whole UK, why should it just be Scots that get to vote?
    Because it's Scotland's right under UK law.

    I suppose you think the other 27 members voters should have been given a say in the EU referendum too?
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrottonRed View Post
    Because it's Scotland's right under UK law.

    I suppose you think the other 27 members voters should have been given a say in the EU referendum too?
    Using your example in the other thread, the EU is apparently just a trade agreement, not a union between England, Scotland, NI and Wales. So no, I don't think the other EU members should get a vote.
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  9. #9  
    GrottonRed is online now LFC Forums Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by scousechrisj View Post
    Using your example in the other thread, the EU is apparently just a trade agreement, not a union between England, Scotland, NI and Wales. So no, I don't think the other EU members should get a vote.
    Good.

    Scotland's future is a matter for them...as long as they stick to the rules which were agreed as part of devolution.

    Once it becomes clear that their claims they'll stay or join the EU independently of the UK are rubbished, the yes campaign will be in tatters.
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  10. #10  
    shody1976 is online now First team regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by scousechrisj View Post
    Yes, they had their vote as enshrined in law... and in the words of most Brexit voters, the "people have spoken" and voted to stay in the UK union. The situation has now changed since that vote according to Sturgeon however, with a potential departure from the EU. If that mindset stands for the Scottish referendum, why not for the EU one, given if Scotland leave the union, that is a very different proposition to our departure from the EU. Both decisions are linked (as I have said in another thread):

    - Both are decisions are about the separation of two bodies, binded by geography, economic and political inter-dependencies, through the drive for nationalistic independence.
    - Both decisions are inter-related, given the make up of the UK (both geographically economically) will have been a contributing factor to the other (would UK voters have wanted a Scotland-less UK to leave the EU; would Scottish voters have wanted a EU-less UK union).

    So it is very much a similar situation. Either both decisions should be revisited or neither.
    Leaving the EU is nothing like Scotland dissolving the Union. Either way as I said, there won't be a 2nd referendum on Brexit nor should there be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shody1976 View Post
    Leaving the EU is nothing like Scotland dissolving the Union. Either way as I said, there won't be a 2nd referendum on Brexit nor should there be.
    Why should one referendum be replayed and another not, just because the playing field has changed?
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  12. #12  
    GrottonRed is online now LFC Forums Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by scousechrisj View Post
    Why should one referendum be replayed and another not, just because the playing field has changed?
    Because one has the option to be replayed by law...and the other hasn't.
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    i hope we get it right this time.
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    I am all for scottish independence but the timing of this and the reasons given shows a complete disregard for the rest of the UK. It will also damage the rest of the UKs hand in negotiations and undermine them, as well as divert attention when full focus is required.

    It will be played out on lies that leaving the UK will mean remaining in the EU and the impression that the EU is scotland's biggest partner. The arguments for leaving the UK (and reasons for the UK leaving the EU) will hypocritically not apply in arguments for joining the EU.

    I think scotland can do great as an independent state but this is not the way.
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    shody1976 is online now First team regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by DantesShadow View Post
    I am all for scottish independence but the timing of this and the reasons given shows a complete disregard for the rest of the UK. It will also damage the rest of the UKs hand in negotiations and undermine them, as well as divert attention when full focus is required.

    It will be played out on lies that leaving the UK will mean remaining in the EU and the impression that the EU is scotland's biggest partner. The arguments for leaving the UK (and reasons for the UK leaving the EU) will hypocritically not apply in arguments for joining the EU.

    I think scotland can do great as an independent state but this is not the way.
    Sturgeon is having her hat on a quick re-entry into the EU for an independent Scotland. The big problem she's going to face from countries like Spain who have ongoing issues with internal secessionist factions in their own states. I doubt that they're going to look favourably on independent Scottish membership of the EU.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shody1976 View Post
    Sturgeon is having her hat on a quick re-entry into the EU for an independent Scotland. The big problem she's going to face from countries like Spain who have ongoing issues with internal secessionist factions in their own states. I doubt that they're going to look favourably on independent Scottish membership of the EU.
    Belgium is another one that would block Scotland becoming a member of the EU so they would never get in.
    In any case, splitting from the UK but then rushing under the wing of the Brussels mother-hen doesnt sound like independence to me anyway so I dont understand exactly what the SNP are after, other than maybe they just hate the English.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyZidane View Post
    Belgium is another one that would block Scotland becoming a member of the EU so they would never get in.
    In any case, splitting from the UK but then rushing under the wing of the Brussels mother-hen doesnt sound like independence to me anyway so I dont understand exactly what the SNP are after, other than maybe they just hate the English.
    or maybe it's the fact that a country should govern itself not the big country next to it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyMc9 View Post
    or maybe it's the fact that a country should govern itself not the big country next to it.
    The EU is going down the road to ever closer political union.
    So why is Sturgeon banging on about becoming a member of the EU if she wants Scotland to govern itself?.
    That isnt independence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyZidane View Post
    The EU is going down the road to ever closer political union.
    So why is Sturgeon banging on about becoming a member of the EU if she wants Scotland to govern itself?.
    That isnt independence.
    there is quite a difference, EU decisions don't dominate almost every decision made at national and local levels unlike the UK. Scotland has never voted for a tory govt yet we are landed with them time and time again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyMc9 View Post
    or maybe it's the fact that a country should govern itself not the big country next to it.
    England does not govern scotland, the UK governs both, and even then only partially for scotland. Maybe the SNP should focus on its failures in scotland first but then it might take away their vote if it did that.

    The timing is what stinks most.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyMc9 View Post
    there is quite a difference, EU decisions don't dominate almost every decision made at national and local levels unlike the UK. Scotland has never voted for a tory govt yet we are landed with them time and time again.
    We had 13 years of labour government - a majority due to scottish MPs - and that was accepted by the rest of the UK because we saw us as 1 state. But as with politics sometimes the opposition wins. Scotland is becoming a 1 party country and that will be more harmful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shody1976 View Post
    Sturgeon is having her hat on a quick re-entry into the EU for an independent Scotland. The big problem she's going to face from countries like Spain who have ongoing issues with internal secessionist factions in their own states. I doubt that they're going to look favourably on independent Scottish membership of the EU.
    The EU is not going to allow Scotland to stay there as an independent country. This is nothing to do with any individual country opposing to this but with the EU law, so yes, they will need to reapply but I am pretty sure Scotland can join the EAA or EFTA relatively quickly.
    Spain won't object to Scotland joining the EU once they are out and have applied like any other country. I think people are misunderstanding Spain instance in this situation.
    Last edited by Alon1; 14-3-17 at 13:21.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyZidane View Post
    The EU is going down the road to ever closer political union.
    So why is Sturgeon banging on about becoming a member of the EU if she wants Scotland to govern itself?.
    That isnt independence.
    Because is not quite the same thing, the UK is a country, the EU is not. Ever closer political union is as far as has ever been, it won't happen, no in our time anyway. Either way Scotland has the choice to apply to join to the EU, stay in the sidelines like Iceland, Norway, etc or nowhere near like Moldova, Belarus or soon the rest of the UK. It would be their choice anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shody1976 View Post
    Sturgeon is having her hat on a quick re-entry into the EU for an independent Scotland. The big problem she's going to face from countries like Spain who have ongoing issues with internal secessionist factions in their own states. I doubt that they're going to look favourably on independent Scottish membership of the EU.

    That's before they take into account compulsory adoption of the Euro, Schengen area, no rebate, share of EU AND UK debt, and less structural funds as there will be no UK contributor. Oh and setup all the institutions required to run a state completely
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    shody1976 is online now First team regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyZidane View Post
    The EU is going down the road to ever closer political union.
    So why is Sturgeon banging on about becoming a member of the EU if she wants Scotland to govern itself?.
    That isnt independence.
    Scotland is heavily subsidised by the EU, subsidies that they now stand to lose. It's understandable that she's trying to force the governments hand here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shody1976 View Post
    Scotland is heavily subsidised by the EU, subsidies that they now stand to lose. It's understandable that she's trying to force the governments hand here.
    But the tactics can lead to a worse deal between the UK and EU and that in turn will generally be bad for scotland.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyMc9 View Post
    there is quite a difference, EU decisions don't dominate almost every decision made at national and local levels unlike the UK. Scotland has never voted for a tory govt yet we are landed with them time and time again.
    Large parts of Northern England haven't either.
    If Scotland becomes independent, then what is going to happen as regards borders on the independence day?. Are there going to be border controls checking people?. Who is allowed to cross over and who is classed as Scottish anyway as there is no Scottish passport just a British one?. What happens to the probable millions of Scots living in England, Wales, Ireland or anywhere else if they want to cross back over - how do they prove they are Scottish and why do they not get a vote in the referendum?. For that matter, do non-Scots who just happen to live in Scotland get a vote?.
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    I agree that I am not sure an independent scottish state would face the same opposition by the EU for entry as if it was a country within the UK. Though there might be a fear that if scotland subsequently is successful, then it presents a symbol for other independence movements that life can be better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shody1976 View Post
    Scotland is heavily subsidised by the EU, subsidies that they now stand to lose. It's understandable that she's trying to force the governments hand here.
    I think all of that is anecdotic and meaningless in the grand scheme of things. At the end of the day is a matter of whether the Scottish people want to be independent or not, most countries in this world have achieved independence through war, they fought hard for it and the last thing they thought about it was whether they were going to be better financially because wasn't the priority. Nobody can predict if in the long term Scotland will be better off or not, the likelihood is that over a period of time will be and other times will not, so is a completely waste of time to make a decision based on that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyZidane View Post
    Large parts of Northern England haven't either.
    If Scotland becomes independent, then what is going to happen as regards borders on the independence day?. Are there going to be border controls checking people?. Who is allowed to cross over and who is classed as Scottish anyway as there is no Scottish passport just a British one?. What happens to the probable millions of Scots living in England, Wales, Ireland or anywhere else if they want to cross back over - how do they prove they are Scottish and why do they not get a vote in the referendum?. For that matter, do non-Scots who just happen to live in Scotland get a vote?.
    This is always telling. I don't mind if non-scot residents can vote and scot non-residents cannot or vice versa. But non-scot residents not having a vote and non resident scots also not having a vote would be double standards.
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