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Thread: Am I doing the right thing?

  1. #1 Default Am I doing the right thing? 
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    Not really sure how to spill all this or even if this is the right place, please feel free to move or delete as you feel. I apologise in advance if this ends up being a long winded post. I suppose I'm just looking for any advice from others with similar experiences or suggestions of possible alternative actions I can take.

    Bit of outline history; I have two boys aged 18 and 16, an ex wife who is now in a same sex relationship (get over your giggles ) difficult at first but I get on well with them both, I am now happily remarried myself with an amazing wife who gets on fantastically well with my boys, I've had regular contact with my kids since the split ten years ago. Both boys were doing well in college and on the outside happy kids.

    Things started to go wrong around September last year, the oldest boy changed, he was involved with some 'unsavoury' lads in college and his attitude was changing, becoming verbally aggressive towards his mum and partner, not turning up for college, not getting out of bed, staying out for a couple of days on end. When at home, refusing to help around the house, he developed an extremely destructive attitude. He refused to come and stay with us even for one night, (I've seen him four times since September), he doesn't turn up when arrangements were made. His 18th birthday involved a bedsit, fried chicken, drugs and cheap alcohol. When I tried to discuss things with him the insults he threw at me were so hurtful i actually drove 60 miles home in tears.

    Just before his birthday he left home after a massive argument with his mother, he is now heavily involved in drugs, using and selling (cannabis, MDMA, 'legal' highs and veterinary strength valium). He had savings bonds come of age at 18 and since February he has wasted nearly 2000 on this 'lifestyle' He is sleeping on bedsit floors, hardly eating (he looks like he weighs about 8 stone and he is 6ft) he is supplementing his 'friends' habits. One positive I suppose; He is managing to make minimum attendance at college to enable him to claim certain benefits. He looks homeless which is how he presents himself.

    He is a very intelligent young man who knows how to use manipulation and guilt to his benefit. I met up with him yesterday, to view a flat he had been offered: lets just say it was a hovel and no human should live in such conditions, irrelevant of the flat condition he needs me to be his guarantor., he tried to be manipulative, pouring tears, sobbing, shaking and even being sick after eating a small lunch with me. After much thought and discussion with my wife and his mum I'm refusing as I don't think it is the right thing to do, my heart wants to help him but my head knows at the moment he would let himself and me down, it isn't the money, that isn't the issue, I want our son back, I've pleaded with him to come and live with me and his step mum, get him away from the destructive life he is leading, he flatly refuses. He is on a road to self destruction and I don't know how to put the brakes on for him.

    Basically my heart is breaking, am I doing the right thing refusing to guarantor a property for him, hoping that when he hits rock bottom he will need our help and we can get him sorted. My wife and ex wife think I have made the right decision but its tearing me apart. I am questioning my qualities as a father and even as a person at the moment. We moved down to a beautiful part of South Wales from Lancashire when they were tiny to give them a better lifestyle and cleaner environment to grow up in. The irony of that decision now

    Thanks for getting to the end. Any advice or constructive criticism would be appreciated.

    YNWA
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  2. #2  
    aylesbyred is online now First team regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herbiefella View Post
    Not really sure how to spill all this or even if this is the right place, please feel free to move or delete as you feel. I apologise in advance if this ends up being a long winded post. I suppose I'm just looking for any advice from others with similar experiences or suggestions of possible alternative actions I can take.

    Bit of outline history; I have two boys aged 18 and 16, an ex wife who is now in a same sex relationship (get over your giggles ) difficult at first but I get on well with them both, I am now happily remarried myself with an amazing wife who gets on fantastically well with my boys, I've had regular contact with my kids since the split ten years ago. Both boys were doing well in college and on the outside happy kids.

    Things started to go wrong around September last year, the oldest boy changed, he was involved with some 'unsavoury' lads in college and his attitude was changing, becoming verbally aggressive towards his mum and partner, not turning up for college, not getting out of bed, staying out for a couple of days on end. When at home, refusing to help around the house, he developed an extremely destructive attitude. He refused to come and stay with us even for one night, (I've seen him four times since September), he doesn't turn up when arrangements were made. His 18th birthday involved a bedsit, fried chicken, drugs and cheap alcohol. When I tried to discuss things with him the insults he threw at me were so hurtful i actually drove 60 miles home in tears.

    Just before his birthday he left home after a massive argument with his mother, he is now heavily involved in drugs, using and selling (cannabis, MDMA, 'legal' highs and veterinary strength valium). He had savings bonds come of age at 18 and since February he has wasted nearly 2000 on this 'lifestyle' He is sleeping on bedsit floors, hardly eating (he looks like he weighs about 8 stone and he is 6ft) he is supplementing his 'friends' habits. One positive I suppose; He is managing to make minimum attendance at college to enable him to claim certain benefits. He looks homeless which is how he presents himself.

    He is a very intelligent young man who knows how to use manipulation and guilt to his benefit. I met up with him yesterday, to view a flat he had been offered: lets just say it was a hovel and no human should live in such conditions, irrelevant of the flat condition he needs me to be his guarantor., he tried to be manipulative, pouring tears, sobbing, shaking and even being sick after eating a small lunch with me. After much thought and discussion with my wife and his mum I'm refusing as I don't think it is the right thing to do, my heart wants to help him but my head knows at the moment he would let himself and me down, it isn't the money, that isn't the issue, I want our son back, I've pleaded with him to come and live with me and his step mum, get him away from the destructive life he is leading, he flatly refuses. He is on a road to self destruction and I don't know how to put the brakes on for him.

    Basically my heart is breaking, am I doing the right thing refusing to guarantor a property for him, hoping that when he hits rock bottom he will need our help and we can get him sorted. My wife and ex wife think I have made the right decision but its tearing me apart. I am questioning my qualities as a father and even as a person at the moment. We moved down to a beautiful part of South Wales from Lancashire when they were tiny to give them a better lifestyle and cleaner environment to grow up in. The irony of that decision now

    Thanks for getting to the end. Any advice or constructive criticism would be appreciated.

    YNWA
    Hello mate.

    I'll share my experience with you and perhaps that will help you arrive at a decision.

    5 years ago my eldest daughter left home at 16 to live with some tattooed fella 3 years her elder; she'd alwasy been streetwise growing up, hardly at home, drank a bit and the vice she got into was weed which we hated but couldn't stop her doing.

    She hated our rules and was always aguing and fighting sometimes physically yet she was so loving at other times, so she left and my last words were i'd give it 6 months.

    ON the second to last day of the 6th month she wanted to come home, the short story is we acted as guarantor - the day she left she was happy and excited and the day i picked her up she was drug ridden, dirty, effectively ferrel, i kicked out a load of people of this beautiful flat that was now a ****hole with doors off and carpets ruined and so on and so on. her grandmother gave her 2k inheritence 2 months in and she blew the lot on drugs escalating from weed to coke and tabs and ket i think it's called.

    I cried all the way home she could hardly talk let alone get her stuff together like I asked, I feel your pain a million percent in fact it brings it all back.

    So we got no deposit back and we had to travel to tidy the place up and then pay a **** load more for damage, despite all the promises and begging for us to help her get the place she let us down. Never again.

    I learnt something though and it was painful, I can give advice, I can share my experiences, I can try and steer them away from bad decisions, I learned my role in life is to just be there when it all falls apart.

    Heartbreaking mate and feel for you, I can tell you how I think it will go but I can't tell you wether or not yhour decision is right.

    And weird - we moved from Grimsby to the Wirral for the same reason !

    Good luck, Ayles.

    Ps if you ever want to dump **** in here use this thread >>> http://forums.liverpoolfc.com/thread...cussion-thread
    dont look back in anger.
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  3. #3  
    Shriekback is online now Academy prospect
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    I would try and place him into a drug and alcohol rehab centre.
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  4. #4  
    aylesbyred is online now First team regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by +Shriekback+ View Post
    I would try and place him into a drug and alcohol rehab centre.
    An addict only goes when they hit rock bottom, if he surrenders and gives up that would be the best thing to happen as harsh as that sounds.
    dont look back in anger.
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  5. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by +Shriekback+ View Post
    I would try and place him into a drug and alcohol rehab centre.
    This .
    One of my very best friends is a recoverying addict .

    And you don't have to question your capabilities as a father , we all do all we can.
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  6. #6  
    Shriekback is online now Academy prospect
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    Quote Originally Posted by aylesbyred View Post
    An addict only goes when they hit rock bottom, if he surrenders and gives up that would be the best thing to happen as harsh as that sounds.
    Seems like he's already there, and I don't think its sound harsh, its a responsible solution.

    He needs to clean up his act, get all of that poison out of system so he can see sense.
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  7. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by +Shriekback+ View Post
    Seems like he's already there, and I don't think its sound harsh, its a responsible solution.

    He needs to clean up his act, get all of that poison out of system so he can see sense.
    I think the OP would do that without question if that really was an option. Instead it sounds like his son doesn't want to do that and so he can't really force his son to go to rehab at this point.

    His son might already be at rock bottom but his son needs to realise that himself.

    For OP - impossible to know for sure. I personally would try to use the need for a guarantor - maybe a place closer to your home? Take him on holiday/trip? I don't know.
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  8. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herbiefella View Post
    Not really sure how to spill all this or even if this is the right place, please feel free to move or delete as you feel. I apologise in advance if this ends up being a long winded post. I suppose I'm just looking for any advice from others with similar experiences or suggestions of possible alternative actions I can take.

    Bit of outline history; I have two boys aged 18 and 16, an ex wife who is now in a same sex relationship (get over your giggles ) difficult at first but I get on well with them both, I am now happily remarried myself with an amazing wife who gets on fantastically well with my boys, I've had regular contact with my kids since the split ten years ago. Both boys were doing well in college and on the outside happy kids.

    Things started to go wrong around September last year, the oldest boy changed, he was involved with some 'unsavoury' lads in college and his attitude was changing, becoming verbally aggressive towards his mum and partner, not turning up for college, not getting out of bed, staying out for a couple of days on end. When at home, refusing to help around the house, he developed an extremely destructive attitude. He refused to come and stay with us even for one night, (I've seen him four times since September), he doesn't turn up when arrangements were made. His 18th birthday involved a bedsit, fried chicken, drugs and cheap alcohol. When I tried to discuss things with him the insults he threw at me were so hurtful i actually drove 60 miles home in tears.

    Just before his birthday he left home after a massive argument with his mother, he is now heavily involved in drugs, using and selling (cannabis, MDMA, 'legal' highs and veterinary strength valium). He had savings bonds come of age at 18 and since February he has wasted nearly 2000 on this 'lifestyle' He is sleeping on bedsit floors, hardly eating (he looks like he weighs about 8 stone and he is 6ft) he is supplementing his 'friends' habits. One positive I suppose; He is managing to make minimum attendance at college to enable him to claim certain benefits. He looks homeless which is how he presents himself.

    He is a very intelligent young man who knows how to use manipulation and guilt to his benefit. I met up with him yesterday, to view a flat he had been offered: lets just say it was a hovel and no human should live in such conditions, irrelevant of the flat condition he needs me to be his guarantor., he tried to be manipulative, pouring tears, sobbing, shaking and even being sick after eating a small lunch with me. After much thought and discussion with my wife and his mum I'm refusing as I don't think it is the right thing to do, my heart wants to help him but my head knows at the moment he would let himself and me down, it isn't the money, that isn't the issue, I want our son back, I've pleaded with him to come and live with me and his step mum, get him away from the destructive life he is leading, he flatly refuses. He is on a road to self destruction and I don't know how to put the brakes on for him.

    Basically my heart is breaking, am I doing the right thing refusing to guarantor a property for him, hoping that when he hits rock bottom he will need our help and we can get him sorted. My wife and ex wife think I have made the right decision but its tearing me apart. I am questioning my qualities as a father and even as a person at the moment. We moved down to a beautiful part of South Wales from Lancashire when they were tiny to give them a better lifestyle and cleaner environment to grow up in. The irony of that decision now

    Thanks for getting to the end. Any advice or constructive criticism would be appreciated.

    YNWA
    Feel for you and your family Herbiefella - Your sons are on a different path to you and your ex, it is a problem when families break up, the adults forget the old and wanna focus on the new, the support and listening stops, your kids and many others didn't have anyone to support and listen to them, so they found someone or something that does, depression and drugs..... They become resentful, the adults are happy, they are doing want they want..... Yet they have nothing, no love, no talks, no bonds, outsiders looking in, is how they feel......

    you wanna win them back, you have to start from scratch, build the friendship, when you talk listen to what the talk about, watch their body language too....
    Show them a better way without the yelling and the judging.....

    Hope you win mate, its worth it when you do......
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  9. #9  
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    Thanks for the replies lads.

    Ayles, so sorry for bringing all the memories back but it has helped, thank you for sharing. You and your families experiences more or less mirror ours, I can see the outcome being very similar. I hope your daughter is now in good health and enjoying life once again.

    Shriekback, I agree, rehab would be the best option for him but unfortunately getting someone who refuses to admit that he has a problem into a system like that isn't as easy as it should be, he is 18 so classed as a responsible adult, I, nor his mother can overrule his wishes no matter how much we try and convince him he isn't thinking in his own best interests or health. Looking at him, people can see he needs help but that isn't enough, everyday is like waking up to bang your head against a wall.

    Thanks Hoops, I hope your good friend stays on the road to recovery and I wish him the best of health.
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  10. #10  
    aylesbyred is online now First team regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herbiefella View Post
    Thanks for the replies lads.

    Ayles, so sorry for bringing all the memories back but it has helped, thank you for sharing. You and your families experiences more or less mirror ours, I can see the outcome being very similar. I hope your daughter is now in good health and enjoying life once again.

    Shriekback, I agree, rehab would be the best option for him but unfortunately getting someone who refuses to admit that he has a problem into a system like that isn't as easy as it should be, he is 18 so classed as a responsible adult, I, nor his mother can overrule his wishes no matter how much we try and convince him he isn't thinking in his own best interests or health. Looking at him, people can see he needs help but that isn't enough, everyday is like waking up to bang your head against a wall.

    Thanks Hoops, I hope your good friend stays on the road to recovery and I wish him the best of health.
    no worries at all mate, yeah she came through that phase eventually and i'm sure you will be there to catch you son at his eventual fall.
    dont look back in anger.
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  11. #11  
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    Good luck HerbieFella
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  12. #12  
    Red-And-Proud is online now First team regular
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    My heart goes out to you sir. As a parent myself I dread to think what you must be going through-
    An old saying comes to mind "That you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink" You can only try to guide your children and let them know you will always be there for them, that's all you can do at the end of the day.
    It sounds like the only person who can help is himself, take a step back and try to get your own life on track- I know this might make you feel guilty, but I don't think there is much else you can do, as long as he knows you are there for him when HE decides he needs you, fighting against him might only oush him further away.
    Let him makes his own mistake and more importantly solve them too... He will eventually realise when he is ready for help.

    Best of luck mate and I am sure you won't but make sure you don't focus all your attention on 1 child who is making all the noise, the other will need it just as much.

    I am questioning my qualities as a father and even as a person at the moment.
    You shouldn't be, you are making the hard choice not the easy one- that is part of being a good parent- Its just like when your child is a toddler and you tell them in the shop they can't have any sweets, no matter if they cry or not stand by your decision, but of course explain to them why, if that is not good enough they will cry and tire themselves out and remember that won't work next time- It would be much 'easier' to just give them the sweets...but in the long run it is not good for your relationship, or how they percieve life
    Last edited by Red-And-Proud; 30-3-17 at 15:51.
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  13. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by aylesbyred View Post
    Hello mate.

    I'll share my experience with you and perhaps that will help you arrive at a decision.

    5 years ago my eldest daughter left home at 16 to live with some tattooed fella 3 years her elder; she'd alwasy been streetwise growing up, hardly at home, drank a bit and the vice she got into was weed which we hated but couldn't stop her doing.

    She hated our rules and was always aguing and fighting sometimes physically yet she was so loving at other times, so she left and my last words were i'd give it 6 months.

    ON the second to last day of the 6th month she wanted to come home, the short story is we acted as guarantor - the day she left she was happy and excited and the day i picked her up she was drug ridden, dirty, effectively ferrel, i kicked out a load of people of this beautiful flat that was now a ****hole with doors off and carpets ruined and so on and so on. her grandmother gave her 2k inheritence 2 months in and she blew the lot on drugs escalating from weed to coke and tabs and ket i think it's called.

    I cried all the way home she could hardly talk let alone get her stuff together like I asked, I feel your pain a million percent in fact it brings it all back.

    So we got no deposit back and we had to travel to tidy the place up and then pay a **** load more for damage, despite all the promises and begging for us to help her get the place she let us down. Never again.

    I learnt something though and it was painful, I can give advice, I can share my experiences, I can try and steer them away from bad decisions, I learned my role in life is to just be there when it all falls apart.

    Heartbreaking mate and feel for you, I can tell you how I think it will go but I can't tell you wether or not yhour decision is right.

    And weird - we moved from Grimsby to the Wirral for the same reason !

    Good luck, Ayles.

    Ps if you ever want to dump **** in here use this thread >>> http://forums.liverpoolfc.com/thread...cussion-thread
    Always have known you are a top man, Ayles .. this post of yours only serves to entrench that feeling.

    Herbiefella - I wish I could give you sound advice, man, I really do .. it is obvious you are in great pain .. who wouldn't be, with what you are going through. Children are our greatest pride and joy, the source of so much happiness .. but it is a double edged sword when things go haywire with them. All we can do as parents is what our hearts and heads guide us to do .. at the time, it is virtually impossible to know whether the actions we take are right or wrong, especially when our thinking is clouded by emotion. There is no guidebook to parenting unfortunately, as each situation is unique, even if that is only with a few nuances. Ultimately, I believe that one of the things Aylesbyred said rings true (especially the bolded bit):

    "I learnt something though and it was painful, I can give advice, I can share my experiences, I can try and steer them away from bad decisions, I learned my role in life is to just be there when it all falls apart."

    Am so, so sorry for what you are going through .. I hope the situation resolves itself as soon as possible, and in the best way possible. All I can add to that is that you cannot blame yourself for the situation your son finds himself in .. often, it is not about the manner in which we raise our kids, as sadly outside influences and peer pressure take precedent over what parents say, and it is actually oftentimes unavoidable. Don't take it all on yourself. You should never have to rip yourself into pieces to keep others whole.

    Thoughts are with you .. be strong, fellow Red.
    Last edited by grenny158; 30-3-17 at 16:23.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red-And-Proud View Post
    My heart goes out to you sir. As a parent myself I dread to think what you must be going through-
    An old saying comes to mind "That you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink" You can only try to guide your children and let them know you will always be there for them, that's all you can do at the end of the day.
    It sounds like the only person who can help is himself, take a step back and try to get your own life on track- I know this might make you feel guilty, but I don't think there is much else you can do, as long as he knows you are there for him when HE decides he needs you, fighting against him might only oush him further away.
    Let him makes his own mistake and more importantly solve them too... He will eventually realise when he is ready for help.

    Best of luck mate and I am sure you won't but make sure you don't focus all your attention on 1 child who is making all the noise, the other will need it just as much.



    You shouldn't be, you are making the hard choice not the easy one- that is part of being a good parent- Its just like when your child is a toddler and you tell them in the shop they can't have any sweets, no matter if they cry or not stand by your decision, but of course explain to them why, if that is not good enough they will cry and tire themselves out and remember that won't work next time- It would be much 'easier' to just give them the sweets...but in the long run it is not good for your relationship, or how they percieve life

    Another great post this.

    Kudos to all of you who have replied to Herbiefella's post .. whether a long reply or a short one - you are all good, caring people.
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  15. #15  
    aylesbyred is online now First team regular
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    I am questioning my qualities as a father and even as a person at the moment.
    You shouldn't be, you are making the hard choice not the easy one- that is part of being a good parent- Its just like when your child is a toddler and you tell them in the shop they can't have any sweets, no matter if they cry or not stand by your decision, but of course explain to them why, if that is not good enough they will cry and tire themselves out and remember that won't work next time- It would be much 'easier' to just give them the sweets...but in the long run it is not good for your relationship, or how they percieve life
    Super that RedAndProud
    dont look back in anger.
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  16. #16  
    aylesbyred is online now First team regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by grenny158 View Post
    Always have known you are a top man, Ayles .. this post of yours only serves to entrench that feeling.

    Herbiefella - I wish I could give you sound advice, man, I really do .. it is obvious you are in great pain .. who wouldn't be, with what you are going through. Children are our greatest pride and joy, the source of so much happiness .. but it is a double edged sword when things go haywire with them. All we can do as parents is what our hearts and heads guide us to do .. at the time, it is virtually impossible to know whether the actions we take are right or wrong, especially when our thinking is clouded by emotion. There is no guidebook to parenting unfortunately, as each situation is unique, even if that is only with a few nuances. Ultimately, I believe that one of the things Aylesbyred said rings true (especially the bolded bit):

    "I learnt something though and it was painful, I can give advice, I can share my experiences, I can try and steer them away from bad decisions, I learned my role in life is to just be there when it all falls apart."

    Am so, so sorry for what you are going through .. I hope the situation resolves itself as soon as possible, and in the best way possible. All I can add to that is that you cannot blame yourself for the situation your son finds himself in .. often, it is not about the manner in which we raise our kids, as sadly outside influences and peer pressure take precedent over what parents say, and it is actually oftentimes unavoidable. Don't take it all on yourself. You should never have to rip yourself into pieces to keep others whole.

    Thoughts are with you .. be strong, fellow Red.
    ah cheers Grenny, terrific input from you as always, always make me proud to be among you guys in these threads.

    Keep your chin up Herbiefella, it's clear to see for all reading your posts you're a good man and father.
    dont look back in anger.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grenny158 View Post
    Always have known you are a top man, Ayles .. this post of yours only serves to entrench that feeling.

    Herbiefella - I wish I could give you sound advice, man, I really do .. it is obvious you are in great pain .. who wouldn't be, with what you are going through. Children are our greatest pride and joy, the source of so much happiness .. but it is a double edged sword when things go haywire with them. All we can do as parents is what our hearts and heads guide us to do .. at the time, it is virtually impossible to know whether the actions we take are right or wrong, especially when our thinking is clouded by emotion. There is no guidebook to parenting unfortunately, as each situation is unique, even if that is only with a few nuances. Ultimately, I believe that one of the things Aylesbyred said rings true (especially the bolded bit):

    "I learnt something though and it was painful, I can give advice, I can share my experiences, I can try and steer them away from bad decisions, I learned my role in life is to just be there when it all falls apart."

    Am so, so sorry for what you are going through .. I hope the situation resolves itself as soon as possible, and in the best way possible. All I can add to that is that you cannot blame yourself for the situation your son finds himself in .. often, it is not about the manner in which we raise our kids, as sadly outside influences and peer pressure take precedent over what parents say, and it is actually oftentimes unavoidable. Don't take it all on yourself. You should never have to rip yourself into pieces to keep others whole.

    Thoughts are with you .. be strong, fellow Red.
    Ayles just longs for attention on here .
    He's like a puppy bouncing about wearing a guide dog training high vis vest whilst selling the big issue for 50% off.
    Bit pathetic really ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by aylesbyred View Post
    ah cheers Grenny, terrific input from you as always, always make me proud to be among you guys in these threads.

    Keep your chin up Herbiefella, it's clear to see for all reading your posts you're a good man and father.
    Stop being so fricking nice
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  19. #19  
    aylesbyred is online now First team regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by redhoops View Post
    Ayles just longs for attention on here .
    He's like a puppy bouncing about wearing a guide dog training high vis vest whilst selling the big issue for 50% off.
    Bit pathetic really ...
    Lol
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  20. #20  
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    There is only one person that can make the changes, its all down to him, if he is intelligent as you say he is, he will realise eventually.
    All you can do is be there for him.
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  21. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by aylesbyred View Post
    Lol
    How's your day going mate ?

    I'm currently on cloud 10 looking down on the poor souls stuck on 9.

    2017 is going well
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  22. #22  
    aylesbyred is online now First team regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by redhoops View Post
    How's your day going mate ?

    I'm currently on cloud 10 looking down on the poor souls stuck on 9.

    2017 is going well
    Good mate thanks, in a good place

    What's the score with you mate ?
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  23. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by aylesbyred View Post
    Good mate thanks, in a good place

    What's the score with you mate ?
    Life needs snookers to beat me right now and I've hidden the chalk.

    Do enjoy reading your words in threads like this .
    Rather insightful aren't you
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  24. #24  
    aylesbyred is online now First team regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by redhoops View Post
    Life needs snookers to beat me right now and I've hidden the chalk.

    Do enjoy reading your words in threads like this .
    Rather insightful aren't you
    Good to hear mate that's gotta be a woman ?

    Ah thanks man
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  25. #25  
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    Sounds a really tough situation and my best wishes to you through what is clearly a painful trialing time.

    I don't think anybody can be black and white in terms of doing the right thing, who even knows what the right thing is in these situations but you can only do what you feel and think is best.

    If it helps at all, I have had tough experiences with my brother who is a few years older than me, a similar sort of issue in terms of personal responsibility and the limits/boundaries of what you can do to help versus what they'd do or not do for themselves.

    With my brother, he had a breakdown around 2003. We were so close due to both leaving home at early ages, I moved in with him as a teenager in the mid 90's and he and I were inseparable. My folks, bless them, and I can say that in hindsight, were extremely religious and their whole lives were dedicated to the cause, I knew young that I wanted out so waited till I was old enough to make a stand against them and their congregation, hence I moved in with my brother who had left a few years previous. It was a hard religion to leave so we did well and my parents I now feel a little sorry for as I see them more as victims of a controlling religion, but back then I was full of anger.

    So that was the context, my brother and I stayed together for a few years before I moved out and found my own way in the world, all was good and my brother married and took on two kids who were great, loved them dearly.

    In 2003 he had a nervous breakdown and the for 6 years following that I of course supported him & his family in anyway I could.

    However as time went on, he became more and more manipulative in his behaviour with more and more dramas/events taking place with details that never quite stood up to scrutiny the more I dug. He and his wife seemed to compete over who was worse off or ill while their kids entering their teen years were often overlooked.

    I met my wife to be, but she started to find my brothers constant visits and demands for help difficult to bear and I started to see another perspective.

    As time went on, he and his wife became a nightmare, getting into debt, blowing money and falling out of work and removed all responsibility from themselves, so I had to bail them out when it was the girls 18th Birthday, same again for Christmas and then when he and his wife split, I paid his bond and first 3 months rent but still he would demand more and more and lecture me on what I hadn't done as opposed to any appreciation for what was done.

    In the background when I refused to help and provide more money, I believe they turned the girls against me and his wife cut all contact off between the girls and I despite caring for them

    Eventually, after several fall outs I had to cut contact with him as it became clear he would not take any responsibility for himself or for his actions and he was particularly manipulative in terms of hiding behind mental health. Again the more I dug the more I found out in regards to his mental health, he had been arrested and imprisoned for a week for breaking an injuction placed against him by 'Mind' of all places. I also discovered that the several occasions he'd been sectioned never actually happened, he was forever trying to be sectioned but they'd never take him in and the diagnosis of a serious bi-polar disorder was also untrue.

    So I moved about three years back with my wife and have never told him the address to limit contact, but year before last he manipulated my folks into taking him in for the odd weekend, my father has had several heart attacks (one had happened during one of my brothers little visits previously) and at their age are in no state to look after him. One weekend he refused to leave their house, they rang me very distressed and I had to go to basically remove him from the house somehow. That ultimately didn't go well, my wife took my parents out of the house and I tried to reason with him before exploding through sheer pent up rage I guess, he went for me and attacked me and I defended myself. My wife and I ended up taking him to A&E and while I was still furious and upset, gutted at events and the distress for my folks, he seemed to see it as an opportunity to manipulate again and make hay, asking us for money and to take him in, "after all you owe me for the damage you've done to me," is the line that always sticks with me. He actually smirked when he said that.

    He left my parents alone after that and I've not spoken to him since.

    What I reflected on was his learned behaviour over the years. He sadly traded in the end on his breakdown and mental health issues, absolved himself of all responsibility and I perhaps inadvertently empowered him to do that along with his friends who tried to help (they all eventually stopped seeing him one by one). The more we did, the more demanding and manipulative he became, never caring about the lives of others or the sheer anguish he'd put us through and often anguish based on a lie or an event of his own doing.

    I guess for you the trick could be doing what you are doing, supporting, advising, but also ensuring your son maintains his own responsibility or nourishes it, sees that there are boundaries to what anyone can do to help no matter who they are but at the same time know you'll always be there whenever you can.

    For my own situation, I don't know if my brother and I will ever have a relationship again, but that could have perhaps been different had I been wiser in my support of him and put boundaries in place earlier in the piece. I guess as I looked up to him I hoped it was a blip and that he'd 'get better.' Sadly it only got worse and I couldn't strike the balance needed, to the point I became quite ill myself with the stress/pressure of it all, I only recovered thanks to my wife but also learning how to place the ultimate responsibility back with him for what he did in life, setting boundaries and limitations in what I could do.

    He was not used to this and tried every method to break boundaries, manipulate me, make up wild events, anything to get his way and that is when I realised we could not have a relationship because it was all on his terms or not at all. For your son with his young age though, he can learn hopefully about taking responsibility with guidance along the way and turn life around.

    It sounds to me like you are doing the right type of things generally, you were there for him to see the flat etc and played an advisory role which you can continue to do, you can help and prompt and push but it has to be a two way thing, and if you see more coming back from him that allows you to help more when appropriate to.

    Hope that all makes sense and sorry for the rambling!

    It sounds heartbreaking and I know with my brother how I felt, its so hard to be logical and take a step back and look at the whole piece when so much emotion is at stake along with your futures, but you can only do what you feel is best and do things like this, talk to others, gain perspective and your own emotional intelligence and instinct will I'm sure serve you well.

    Best wishes mate

    P.S. So many good responses in here, gives you hope in the human race!
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  26. #26  
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    Man love and respect to Mr Welshypool.
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  27. #27  
    kas74 is online now First team regular
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    It's incredibly hard to have to stand by and watch someone mess up their life,especially if that someone's your child.As you say though he's eighteen and considered an adult so legally your hands are tied.
    I do think you're doing the right thing though in refusing to act as a guarantor;it's probably what I'd do and what several people I know have done in similar situations.The problem in those cases wasn't always drugs;sometimes it was alcohol or gambling,sometimes an unsuitable partner or the wrong crowd.
    Just keep doing what you're doing,let him know you're there for him and will do whatever it takes when he decides he wants some proper help.
    All the best.
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  28. #28  
    Liverdinner is online now Posts With His Faace
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    I'm not a parent, but I have a father who has been there for me and I can say you don't need to question yourself. You're not giving up on him, and it's actually very admirable, scant consolation as that may be.

    It may be a stupid question, but can you ever get him down to have a discussion about how you feel about it? I don't mean pleading and begging, I mean a real heart to heart where you try and crack a hard exterior i presume he has about. Maybe even to let him explain how he feels about it all and to get things off his chest. It may seem strange, but I think developing openness and spelling out to him how it affects you as well might help. You want to get the person within back, if you know what I mean. Maybe start small. Be careful that you explain that you're refusing out of love, no matter how agro he gets about it. Don't get angry because that kind of tone can sever the long term relationship and delay him coming back to you, from my experience with a nutty ex and her family.

    Ultimately all I can say is never give up but try to not ever take it out on yourself. It's not your fault. I wish you the best of luck.


    Also, post in here about it every time you need to. It helps doesn't it.
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  29. #29  
    Liverdinner is online now Posts With His Faace
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    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    Sounds a really tough situation and my best wishes to you through what is clearly a painful trialing time.

    I don't think anybody can be black and white in terms of doing the right thing, who even knows what the right thing is in these situations but you can only do what you feel and think is best.

    If it helps at all, I have had tough experiences with my brother who is a few years older than me, a similar sort of issue in terms of personal responsibility and the limits/boundaries of what you can do to help versus what they'd do or not do for themselves.

    With my brother, he had a breakdown around 2003. We were so close due to both leaving home at early ages, I moved in with him as a teenager in the mid 90's and he and I were inseparable. My folks, bless them, and I can say that in hindsight, were extremely religious and their whole lives were dedicated to the cause, I knew young that I wanted out so waited till I was old enough to make a stand against them and their congregation, hence I moved in with my brother who had left a few years previous. It was a hard religion to leave so we did well and my parents I now feel a little sorry for as I see them more as victims of a controlling religion, but back then I was full of anger.

    So that was the context, my brother and I stayed together for a few years before I moved out and found my own way in the world, all was good and my brother married and took on two kids who were great, loved them dearly.

    In 2003 he had a nervous breakdown and the for 6 years following that I of course supported him & his family in anyway I could.

    However as time went on, he became more and more manipulative in his behaviour with more and more dramas/events taking place with details that never quite stood up to scrutiny the more I dug. He and his wife seemed to compete over who was worse off or ill while their kids entering their teen years were often overlooked.

    I met my wife to be, but she started to find my brothers constant visits and demands for help difficult to bear and I started to see another perspective.

    As time went on, he and his wife became a nightmare, getting into debt, blowing money and falling out of work and removed all responsibility from themselves, so I had to bail them out when it was the girls 18th Birthday, same again for Christmas and then when he and his wife split, I paid his bond and first 3 months rent but still he would demand more and more and lecture me on what I hadn't done as opposed to any appreciation for what was done.

    In the background when I refused to help and provide more money, I believe they turned the girls against me and his wife cut all contact off between the girls and I despite caring for them

    Eventually, after several fall outs I had to cut contact with him as it became clear he would not take any responsibility for himself or for his actions and he was particularly manipulative in terms of hiding behind mental health. Again the more I dug the more I found out in regards to his mental health, he had been arrested and imprisoned for a week for breaking an injuction placed against him by 'Mind' of all places. I also discovered that the several occasions he'd been sectioned never actually happened, he was forever trying to be sectioned but they'd never take him in and the diagnosis of a serious bi-polar disorder was also untrue.

    So I moved about three years back with my wife and have never told him the address to limit contact, but year before last he manipulated my folks into taking him in for the odd weekend, my father has had several heart attacks (one had happened during one of my brothers little visits previously) and at their age are in no state to look after him. One weekend he refused to leave their house, they rang me very distressed and I had to go to basically remove him from the house somehow. That ultimately didn't go well, my wife took my parents out of the house and I tried to reason with him before exploding through sheer pent up rage I guess, he went for me and attacked me and I defended myself. My wife and I ended up taking him to A&E and while I was still furious and upset, gutted at events and the distress for my folks, he seemed to see it as an opportunity to manipulate again and make hay, asking us for money and to take him in, "after all you owe me for the damage you've done to me," is the line that always sticks with me. He actually smirked when he said that.

    He left my parents alone after that and I've not spoken to him since.

    What I reflected on was his learned behaviour over the years. He sadly traded in the end on his breakdown and mental health issues, absolved himself of all responsibility and I perhaps inadvertently empowered him to do that along with his friends who tried to help (they all eventually stopped seeing him one by one). The more we did, the more demanding and manipulative he became, never caring about the lives of others or the sheer anguish he'd put us through and often anguish based on a lie or an event of his own doing.

    I guess for you the trick could be doing what you are doing, supporting, advising, but also ensuring your son maintains his own responsibility or nourishes it, sees that there are boundaries to what anyone can do to help no matter who they are but at the same time know you'll always be there whenever you can.

    For my own situation, I don't know if my brother and I will ever have a relationship again, but that could have perhaps been different had I been wiser in my support of him and put boundaries in place earlier in the piece. I guess as I looked up to him I hoped it was a blip and that he'd 'get better.' Sadly it only got worse and I couldn't strike the balance needed, to the point I became quite ill myself with the stress/pressure of it all, I only recovered thanks to my wife but also learning how to place the ultimate responsibility back with him for what he did in life, setting boundaries and limitations in what I could do.

    He was not used to this and tried every method to break boundaries, manipulate me, make up wild events, anything to get his way and that is when I realised we could not have a relationship because it was all on his terms or not at all. For your son with his young age though, he can learn hopefully about taking responsibility with guidance along the way and turn life around.

    It sounds to me like you are doing the right type of things generally, you were there for him to see the flat etc and played an advisory role which you can continue to do, you can help and prompt and push but it has to be a two way thing, and if you see more coming back from him that allows you to help more when appropriate to.

    Hope that all makes sense and sorry for the rambling!

    It sounds heartbreaking and I know with my brother how I felt, its so hard to be logical and take a step back and look at the whole piece when so much emotion is at stake along with your futures, but you can only do what you feel is best and do things like this, talk to others, gain perspective and your own emotional intelligence and instinct will I'm sure serve you well.

    Best wishes mate

    P.S. So many good responses in here, gives you hope in the human race!
    I haven't had anywhere near the ride you have, but my ex girlfriend was similar in some ways; she would lie and manipulate. It was mostly silly and pointless things, and she got very little benefit out of it.

    In the end I figured she couldn't even help it. She has something wrong with her and I realised that it wasn't my fault and I could not have stopped it. I too tried to help her so many times and lost so many nights sleep over it. In the end I had to cut her loose, but it wasn't a clean break at all. I know exactly what you mean about it being hard to be logical. When you care, you get so invested and you keep hoping and hoping they will change or the breakthrough will come. It still hurts a bit but I am getting to understand that all rests on her and always did.

    Not so say his son is beyond redemption or anything; it's a very different issue in terms of mental state.
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  30. #30  
    TheRiedle is online now First team regular
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    I'm sorry to hear what your going through Herbie mate, I can't imagine how difficult or stressful all this is for you. I have a 20 month old daughter myself and everyday all I think about is how good of a father I can be to her. As for your son you need to get him all the help he needs and get him out of the dark place he got himself to before something serious happens. You need to remain firm and strong through all this.

    Good luck fella and keep us updated.
    ?
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