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Thread: Let's sign Anthony Martial as our new #9

  1. #61  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alon1 View Post
    I am pretty sure this is illegal.
    What is illegal?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankly-Mr-Shankly View Post
    I am not going to look into those stats to verify them as I do not feel the need to, especially as the difference between Martial and Origi in both ability and potential, is very clear.

    I believe Martial would have scored more than Firmino, never mind Origi, if played up front in our current team this season.
    Why?

    Firstly, that's hypothetical.

    Secondly, the stats are clear as day. When played as a striker for their current club, Martial scores 1 goal every 414 minutes, Origi scores 1 goal every 168 minutes. Yet the latter still gets slaughtered by some of our fans, imagine how quickly they'd turn on Martial.

    Martial is extremely overrated, the "difference between Martial and Origi in both ability and potential" isn't clear at all.
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    TheRiedle is online now First team regular
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    Are we seriously suggesting we should sign a player from our biggest rival? Fergie will come out of retirement and stop it from happening.
    ?
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    Liverdinner is offline Posts With His Faace
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    Quote Originally Posted by DahoudAreYou View Post
    Why?

    Firstly, that's hypothetical.

    Secondly, the stats are clear as day. When played as a striker for their current club, Martial scores 1 goal every 414 minutes, Origi scores 1 goal every 168 minutes. Yet the latter still gets slaughtered by some of our fans, imagine how quickly they'd turn on Martial.

    Martial is extremely overrated, the "difference between Martial and Origi in both ability and potential" isn't clear at all.
    Where are you getting that from?

    The sites I use don't show him as playing as the central striker.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liverdinner View Post
    Where are you getting that from?

    The sites I use don't show him as playing as the central striker.
    Origi

    Martial
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  6. #66  
    WirralRiddler is offline These posts brought to you by Dr Dre & Only Fools & Horses appreciation society
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    Quote Originally Posted by DahoudAreYou View Post
    4 goals in 23 appearances when he's played as a centre forward for United.

    1 goal every 414 minutes.

    When Origi's played as a centre forward for Liverpool, he's scored a goal every 168 minutes.

    Considering how quick some fans have turned on Origi/Firmino, I wonder how soon it'd be before they did the same to Martial.

    I'll pass. Overrated and not even realistic anyway.
    Agree with this, dont really understand why he's rated so highly, apart from the fact he cost so much in the first place. No way will we be signing him anyway.
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    Liverdinner is offline Posts With His Faace
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    Quote Originally Posted by DahoudAreYou View Post
    Right, though I'd question its accuracy since it says Origi played CF against City and he didn't.
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    TheRiedle is online now First team regular
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    Why is this even up for discussion?
    ?
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    We will never sign a player coming in from United, because their fans would not like it, the same as United are very unlikely to sign any Liverpool FC players from us.

    Because we are both in a battle for top dogs of English football, so unlikely to happen.

    But I would be happy with David de Gea and Marcus Rashford coming to Liverpool FC in the summer.

    I like the look of Rashford his got pace and will get better, some Liverpool FC fans would not sign him for Liverpool FC, but David de Gea is a no brainier maybe the best goalkeeper on the planet today and would be a wonderful signing for us.

    But not going to happen.
    Last edited by 10Elfrates; 31-3-17 at 12:40.
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    Childish thread "Let's sign Martial" OMG!

    He's as much a 25/30 goal a season striker as Origi
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    Let's replace Belgian Origi with French Origi. Brilliant.
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    Fowi is online now Hall of Fame Resident and Top Poster Who Shook The Boards
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roshi98 View Post
    Let's replace Belgian Origi with French Origi. Brilliant.
    It depends on whether one thinks Martial would score enough goals if played regularly and preferably up front. Sturridge's situation was not as good as Martial's when we signed him, for example. Football world is full of such scenarios. From Thierry Henry to Eto'o. It simply depends on whether one thinks Martial has what it takes. What he's done previously is not important in this case as there is very little data to go on.

    The alternative is to go out and sign a 30 goals a season striker who has scored those goals at a big club. Good luck with that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fowi View Post
    It depends on whether one thinks Martial would score enough goals if played regularly and preferably up front. Sturridge's situation was not as good as Martial's when we signed him, for example. Football world is full of such scenarios. From Thierry Henry to Eto'o. It simply depends on whether one thinks Martial has what it takes. What he's done previously is not important in this case as there is very little data to go on.

    The alternative is to go out and sign a 30 goals a season striker who has scored those goals at a big club. Good luck with that.
    He doesn't have what it takes. There, I said it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roshi98 View Post
    He doesn't have what it takes. There, I said it.
    It's a matter of opinion and I respect that. I just don't think one can look at his handful of games up front at Man Utd and claim on the basis of that he can't do it.

    I personally think both him and Origi would score plenty of goals if played up front regularly.
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    Liverdinner is offline Posts With His Faace
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roshi98 View Post
    Let's replace Belgian Origi with French Origi. Brilliant.
    I don't think they're particularly similar tbh.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fowi View Post
    It's a matter of opinion and I respect that. I just don't think one can look at his handful of games up front at Man Utd and claim on the basis of that he can't do it.

    I personally think both him and Origi would score plenty of goals if played up front regularly.
    All of this is moot b/c he's a United player and given the antipathy/history between the clubs we'd have to pay a Pogba-level fee to get him, and he's not even worth a sixth of that based on form. Surprised the thread has gone this long, tbh.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liverdinner View Post
    I don't think they're particularly similar tbh.
    You're right. Origi is a harder worker.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DahoudAreYou View Post
    Why?

    Firstly, that's hypothetical.

    Secondly, the stats are clear as day. When played as a striker for their current club, Martial scores 1 goal every 414 minutes, Origi scores 1 goal every 168 minutes. Yet the latter still gets slaughtered by some of our fans, imagine how quickly they'd turn on Martial.

    Martial is extremely overrated, the "difference between Martial and Origi in both ability and potential" isn't clear at all.
    Quite simply, because despite there being occasions when stats can be used effectively, the way you have done so here is not entirely with much validity. It takes more than looking up a stat site and cherry picking specific numbers together to try and prove a point without any consideration for the many other factors involved. It does not make you knowledgeable, it just makes you look immature and indicates you don't watch much football as you don't trust in your opinions on players and have to rely blindly on stats.

    Evaluating a player from what you see on the pitch on a regular basis is more important than stats that have been cherry picked to suit an agenda. I could go through those stats and cherry pick them in a way that shows Martial is outperforming Origi if I had the time. (The glaringly obvious being that Martial has scored more goals than Origi). I just do not see the point, as for me it is already clear how much more talented Martial is compared to Origi from watching them on the field.

    I also do not hold a low opinion of Origi, I like him and believe if he was given a run of games he would produce more. However, Martial clearly has more ability, more potential, more skill and talent and seems to have that arrogance and winning mentality that he knows he is going to be the best one day. Origi simply does not have that mentality or killer instinct yet, he needs to develop it and he may never do so. He must if he is to succeed at the top level. Martial simply has more tools to succeed than Origi at this point.

    I stand by that if Martial was in our team every game so far this season, he would have scored more than both Origi's and Firmino's combined total of 13 in the league. He has a far more established finishing ability than both Origi and Firmino and would likely have put the many chances we have created this season away, he also has more pace and instinct to break the lines than both Origi and Firmino. Our squad is tailor made for him.

    This is also partly what contributes to why Mane is our top scorer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe-El View Post
    Childish thread "Let's sign Martial" OMG!

    He's as much a 25/30 goal a season striker as Origi
    No one has suggested he is a 25/30 goal a season striker right now and I am not sure you have actually read the OP to believe this is childish as you have described.

    This is a serious thread and more of a plea to Liverpool to make such a statement and buy such talent from a bitter rival and breaking traditions in the process to show we mean business.
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  20. #80  
    Liverdinner is offline Posts With His Faace
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roshi98 View Post
    You're right. Origi is a harder worker.
    Yep and stronger, and Martial is smarter, more skilful and tricky with better link up play.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roshi98 View Post
    Let's replace Belgian Origi with French Origi. Brilliant.
    Both different players and no one has suggested replacing one or the other.

    Having both to share the #9 regularly or shaping a system that allows for both to play would be incredibly promising and could develop into something fantastic.

    As for Firmino he has a place in the squad, although not at #9.
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    Quote Originally Posted by frankly-mr-shankly View Post
    both different players and no one has suggested replacing one or the other.

    Having both to share the #9 regularly or shaping a system that allows for both to play would be incredibly promising and could develop into something fantastic.

    As for firmino he has a place in the squad, although not at #9.
    it's not going to happen...:bh:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankly-Mr-Shankly View Post
    No one has suggested he is a 25/30 goal a season striker right now and I am not sure you have actually read the OP to believe this is childish as you have described.

    This is a serious thread and more of a plea to Liverpool to make such a statement and buy such talent from a bitter rival and breaking traditions in the process to show we mean business.
    "We mean business"...as in overpay for a hated rival's marginal player by so much we wouldn't be able to buy anyone else? Stupid business.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roshi98 View Post
    it's not going to happen...:bh:
    Highly likely it wont, of course, although I am not suggesting it will, I am suggesting I would like to see us try, that important distinction has been made clear in the OP.

    I am suggesting it is a perfect opportunity where we should at least be trying and believe I have presented some interesting points that could possibly give us the slightest of chances if we tried. This thread is to discuss those points, Martial as a player, whether he wold suit us, to track his transfer situation over the summer and hopefully putting a plea out there to Liverpool so they know that we should be at least trying.

    Threads are created about players who we never sign on these boards all the time and let them drag on for months sometimes. Dahoud being the latest one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roshi98 View Post
    "We mean business"...as in overpay for a hated rival's marginal player by so much we wouldn't be able to buy anyone else? Stupid business.
    I am not so sure that is a balanced view.

    From my perspective I believe it would be acquiring one of our bitter rivals best young talents since Cristiano Ronaldo (although not suggesting they are remotely the same player) who could go on to be a World Class player, against most of their fans will. Who is being shut out by an arrogant manager, notorious for maligning young players, despite their talents and would be an opportunity to pounce on a player who has high commercial value and possibly would not cost more than 40m based on his situation, further clauses United are liable for and he has only 2 years left on his contract.

    Adding to that Martial and his agent have been sounding out that he may be actively looking for a move, especially if he is on the bench again next year because of Zlatan looking like he is re-signing and with Griezmann looking like he is coming in. Is Martial rubbish because he wont get in the team over those 2 and Mata/Mkhi on the wings, knowing what Mourinho is like with young players?

    As for our current options at #9 do you think he would do better or worse than Origi or Firmino in our current set up? If you believe he would do worse, then who else do you think would come in to our team with more potential and ability than Martial?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankly-Mr-Shankly View Post
    Highly likely it wont, of course, although I am not suggesting it will, I am suggesting I would like to see us try, that important distinction has been made clear in the OP.

    I am suggesting it is a perfect opportunity where we should at least be trying and believe I have presented some interesting points that could possibly give us the slightest of chances if we tried. This thread is to discuss those points, Martial as a player, whether he wold suit us, to track his transfer situation over the summer and hopefully putting a plea out there to Liverpool so they know that we should be at least trying.

    Threads are created about players who we never sign on these boards all the time and let them drag on for months sometimes. Dahoud being the latest one.
    Maybe this wouldn't all be so laughably sad if we were talking about players we're never going to get who are actually good rather than one who we'll never get and isn't showing the goods? At least with Dahoud (who I've been meh about) there was some chance we'd get him and he has demonstrable consistent quality in his favor. With Martial there's no chance AND he's an inconsistent bit player.

    I get that we come here to imagine and banter over "what ifs", but isn't it just a little depressing to spend pages bigging up a player who has shown precious little as if he would be some sort of solution to our problems? I thought our standards were higher. It's why I donated my sunshiner hat to science.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankly-Mr-Shankly View Post
    I am not so sure that is a balanced view.

    From my perspective I believe it would be acquiring one of our bitter rivals best young talents since Cristiano Ronaldo (although not suggesting they are remotely the same player) who could go on to be a World Class player, against most of their fans will. Who is being shut out by an arrogant manager, notorious for maligning young players, despite their talents and would be an opportunity to pounce on a player who has high commercial value and possibly would not cost more than 40m based on his situation, further clauses United are liable for and he has only 2 years left on his contract.

    Adding to that Martial and his agent have been sounding out that he may be actively looking for a move, especially if he is on the bench again next year because of Zlatan looking like he is re-signing and with Griezmann looking like he is coming in. Is Martial rubbish because he wont get in the team over those 2 and Mata/Mkhi on the wings, knowing what Mourinho is like with young players?

    As for our current options at #9 do you think he would do better or worse than Origi or Firmino in our current set up? If you believe he would do worse, then who else do you think would come in to our team with more potential and ability than Martial?
    I don't have to have other players in mind to know that Martial isn't the quality we need to improve.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roshi98 View Post
    Maybe this wouldn't all be so laughably sad if we were talking about players we're never going to get who are actually good rather than one who we'll never get and isn't showing the goods? At least with Dahoud (who I've been meh about) there was some chance we'd get him and he has demonstrable consistent quality in his favor. With Martial there's no chance AND he's an inconsistent bit player.

    I get that we come here to imagine and banter over "what ifs", but isn't it just a little depressing to spend pages bigging up a player who has shown precious little as if he would be some sort of solution to our problems? I thought our standards were higher. It's why I donated my sunshiner hat to science.
    Quote Originally Posted by Roshi98 View Post
    I don't have to have other players in mind to know that Martial isn't the quality we need to improve.
    Ergo, admitting you do not have anything interesting or of substance to add to the discussion and are unable to think of a better option, would have been sufficient.

    Yet, a good effort on attempting to deflect by proceeding with a wobbly rant about completely irrelevant issues and ignoring the questions and arguments I had raised, despite being in vain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankly-Mr-Shankly View Post
    Quite simply, because despite there being occasions when stats can be used effectively, the way you have done so here is not entirely with much validity. It takes more than looking up a stat site and cherry picking specific numbers together to try and prove a point without any consideration for the many other factors involved. It does not make you knowledgeable, it just makes you look immature and indicates you don't watch much football as you don't trust in your opinions on players and have to rely blindly on stats.

    Evaluating a player from what you see on the pitch on a regular basis is more important than stats that have been cherry picked to suit an agenda. I could go through those stats and cherry pick them in a way that shows Martial is outperforming Origi if I had the time. (The glaringly obvious being that Martial has scored more goals than Origi). I just do not see the point, as for me it is already clear how much more talented Martial is compared to Origi from watching them on the field.

    I also do not hold a low opinion of Origi, I like him and believe if he was given a run of games he would produce more. However, Martial clearly has more ability, more potential, more skill and talent and seems to have that arrogance and winning mentality that he knows he is going to be the best one day. Origi simply does not have that mentality or killer instinct yet, he needs to develop it and he may never do so. He must if he is to succeed at the top level. Martial simply has more tools to succeed than Origi at this point.

    I stand by that if Martial was in our team every game so far this season, he would have scored more than both Origi's and Firmino's combined total of 13 in the league. He has a far more established finishing ability than both Origi and Firmino and would likely have put the many chances we have created this season away, he also has more pace and instinct to break the lines than both Origi and Firmino. Our squad is tailor made for him.

    This is also partly what contributes to why Mane is our top scorer.


    I've not cherry picked anything. I've looked at Martial's Man United career when he's played as a #9, and I've looked at Origi's Liverpool career when he's played as a #9. Martial scores every 414 minutes, Origi scores every 168 minutes.

    But anyway, because I've been cherry picking, I'll branch it out a bit more for you.

    In their entire careers, when played as a #9:

    Martial: 1 goal every 306 minutes.

    Origi: 1 goal every 208 minutes.

    "Clearly has more ability, more potential, more skill and talent". Yeah, they're just buzzwords and pretty pointless if you can't explain why.

    Also no he doesn't have a "far more established finishing ability" than Origi, there's nothing to back that up. Both have scored great goals, easy goals, and both have missed sitters.

    "I could go through those stats and cherry pick them in a way that shows Martial is outperforming Origi if I had the time." No you couldn't. Unless you used Martial's performances when he's played on the wing. Which would make your thread title pointless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DahoudAreYou View Post


    I've not cherry picked anything. I've looked at Martial's Man United career when he's played as a #9, and I've looked at Origi's Liverpool career when he's played as a #9. Martial scores every 414 minutes, Origi scores every 168 minutes.

    But anyway, because I've been cherry picking, I'll branch it out a bit more for you.

    In their entire careers, when played as a #9:

    Martial: 1 goal every 306 minutes.

    Origi: 1 goal every 208 minutes.

    "Clearly has more ability, more potential, more skill and talent". Yeah, they're just buzzwords and pretty pointless if you can't explain why.

    Also no he doesn't have a "far more established finishing ability" than Origi, there's nothing to back that up. Both have scored great goals, easy goals, and both have missed sitters.

    "I could go through those stats and cherry pick them in a way that shows Martial is outperforming Origi if I had the time." No you couldn't. Unless you used Martial's performances when he's played on the wing. Which would make your thread title pointless.
    The first sin here is the fact you have contradicted yourself within the first two sentences and clearly undermines your argument.

    However, forgiving the same, most importantly you have continued to provide stats that are based on too small a pool of data and too narrow to make a relevant point. Therefore, failing to recognise the importance of having to rely on other factors that are required to be evaluated upon visually watching the performances they have put in and is able to shed more nuance, more so than basing everything on a simple goals/minutes ratio based on position.

    As you have even stated yourself, if you take into consideration the time Martial has spent on the wing, the goals/minutes ratio stack in Martial's favour. You are then willing to accept the stats then become useless because it does not suit your narrative. The flip side could be if Martial has scored those goals from the wing, then it only indicates his superior finishing qualities that to you are merely stating is a 'buzzword', as he has managed to score those goals from a more disadvantaged position from the wing and not as a #9. Therefore I am very confused as to why you believe 'there is nothing to back up' the fact Martial is superior at finishing his chances than Origi.

    I believe you only need to have witnessed a minority of Origi's games for us to indicate how lacking Origi is with his natural instinct to score goals, he wastes a numerous amount of chances and his hold up play is extremely underdeveloped. For clarity and assurances that this is not sarcasm or hyperbole, there are lower league players who are more proficient at maintaining and holding up the ball than Origi. These are extremely important attributes that are required to play the #9 role and is the main reason why Firmino plays over Origi. Ball retention is crucial to our teams fluidity.
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