Notices
Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 38 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 1120

Thread: Our manager - Jurgen Klopp - Part deux...

  1. #31  
    Coach791 is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    34,522
    Quote Originally Posted by *Shriekback* View Post
    Its strange why he didn't replicate what worked before, he gone from being successful with a big, strong commanding side right through the spine of the the team to little, weak technical players.
    I think managers have more knowledge and more information than fans do and personally I think Wenger thought they'd struggle financially to compete so built a style of football smaller, technical players could develop in. Create a system of sustainability.

    For example take Klopp at Dortmund and the players they have seen successfully graduate in Gotze, Pulisic, these aren't big powerful players. Vast majority of Barcelona's players are not big powerful players though Pique and Busquets stand out as tall players they're exceptions.

    The clubs with the most productive styles for younger players tend to be more technical. It's very hard to being players through in a more powerful, physical, dominant side. Even big young players are rarely ready to mix it in say a Mourinho or Benitez side if they're not defenders.

    Even players like Matic and Pogba had to move away and then come back. I think each manager from Klopp, Wenger, Guardiola have certain ideas about right now and ideas about the future. Criticisms of wenger is that he's too much long term sustainability but that's seen him be a manager across two decades.

    Some would say Mourinho is too focused on the now which brings great success but gets him sacked from big clubs when can't sustain it. The difficult is Arsenal fans now want titles and they understand that the system Arsene created has sustained them through being unable to financially compete.

    Now they want change and they want short term success and you can understand that.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  2. #32  
    fredthecamel is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    37,318
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach791 View Post
    I think managers have more knowledge and more information than fans do and personally I think Wenger thought they'd struggle financially to compete so built a style of football smaller, technical players could develop in. Create a system of sustainability.

    For example take Klopp at Dortmund and the players they have seen successfully graduate in Gotze, Pulisic, these aren't big powerful players. Vast majority of Barcelona's players are not big powerful players though Pique and Busquets stand out as tall players they're exceptions.

    The clubs with the most productive styles for younger players tend to be more technical. It's very hard to being players through in a more powerful, physical, dominant side. Even big young players are rarely ready to mix it in say a Mourinho or Benitez side if they're not defenders.

    Even players like Matic and Pogba had to move away and then come back. I think each manager from Klopp, Wenger, Guardiola have certain ideas about right now and ideas about the future. Criticisms of wenger is that he's too much long term sustainability but that's seen him be a manager across two decades.

    Some would say Mourinho is too focused on the now which brings great success but gets him sacked from big clubs when can't sustain it. The difficult is Arsenal fans now want titles and they understand that the system Arsene created has sustained them through being unable to financially compete.

    Now they want change and they want short term success and you can understand that.
    wenger got gooey eyed over barcelonas football nd tried to replicate it in the epl
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  3. #33  
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    17,116
    Quote Originally Posted by fredthecamel View Post
    which weak technical players had he signed?
    Ozil
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  4. #34  
    fredthecamel is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    37,318
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach791 View Post
    I think managers have more knowledge and more information than fans do and personally I think Wenger thought they'd struggle financially to compete so built a style of football smaller, technical players could develop in. Create a system of sustainability.

    For example take Klopp at Dortmund and the players they have seen successfully graduate in Gotze, Pulisic, these aren't big powerful players. Vast majority of Barcelona's players are not big powerful players though Pique and Busquets stand out as tall players they're exceptions.

    The clubs with the most productive styles for younger players tend to be more technical. It's very hard to being players through in a more powerful, physical, dominant side. Even big young players are rarely ready to mix it in say a Mourinho or Benitez side if they're not defenders.

    Even players like Matic and Pogba had to move away and then come back. I think each manager from Klopp, Wenger, Guardiola have certain ideas about right now and ideas about the future. Criticisms of wenger is that he's too much long term sustainability but that's seen him be a manager across two decades.

    Some would say Mourinho is too focused on the now which brings great success but gets him sacked from big clubs when can't sustain it. The difficult is Arsenal fans now want titles and they understand that the system Arsene created has sustained them through being unable to financially compete.

    Now they want change and they want short term success and you can understand that.
    but you dont understand it from liverpool fans?
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  5. #35  
    fredthecamel is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    37,318
    Quote Originally Posted by LW94 View Post
    Ozil
    oh i thought we were talaking about klopp

    yeah i get the point about wenger
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  6. #36  
    Coach791 is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    34,522
    Quote Originally Posted by Canners View Post
    Would be praised even more had he further improved the squad in the past two windows, particularly January's. We will see what happens this summer to answer critics.
    That's assuming we would have improved signing somebody. I can also imagine if Klopp had signed a player through situation or knee jerk reaction each of the last two January's and they'd have flopped fans would be having a go at his flawed transfer policy.

    So by the same token had we signed two players in Jan and neither worked he'd have been heavily criticised. I don't know where fans get this idea Klopop had options he believed could have strengthened us but said 'nah, I prefer quiet January's'
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  7. #37  
    fredthecamel is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    37,318
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach791 View Post
    That's assuming we would have improved signing somebody. I can also imagine if Klopp had signed a player through situation or knee jerk reaction each of the last two January's and they'd have flopped fans would be having a go at his flawed transfer policy.

    So by the same token had we signed two players in Jan and neither worked he'd have been heavily criticised. I don't know where fans get this idea Klopop had options he believed could have strengthened us but said 'nah, I prefer quiet January's'
    thats a good excuse for not signing players

    what if they had flopped

    maybe he should never sign nyone in case they flop
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  8. #38  
    Coach791 is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    34,522
    Quote Originally Posted by fredthecamel View Post
    but you dont understand it from liverpool fans?
    I understand fans wanting short term success. When you haven't won a title in 27 years, qualified once for Champions League in the last 6 years and finished 8th last season i think expecting instant short term success is beyond ridiculous.

    There are so many things we need to do to achieve success. Success isn't handed, you can't just ask for it. You build it and fans want success before the foundations for success are even built. So whilst i understand fans wanting success as Klopp himself said just wanting it is useless.

    You must create it and build it and improve and keep improving. That's different from Arsenal qualifying for every Champions League but never making a step up. our fans want us to jump from 8th to 1st not spending a penny. Surely you can see that's unrealistic. Possible, I gave us a shot at title this season but going from 8th to 3rd is a good step wouldn't you say?
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  9. #39  
    fredthecamel is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    37,318
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach791 View Post
    That's assuming we would have improved signing somebody. I can also imagine if Klopp had signed a player through situation or knee jerk reaction each of the last two January's and they'd have flopped fans would be having a go at his flawed transfer policy.

    So by the same token had we signed two players in Jan and neither worked he'd have been heavily criticised. I don't know where fans get this idea Klopop had options he believed could have strengthened us but said 'nah, I prefer quiet January's'
    well he s been a manager long enough to know his ideal targets wont be available in january

    this summer he needs to sign enough for the entire season because he s 99 percent certain his targets wont be available in january unless he does a man citty and signs one and leaves them with their club until january
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  10. #40  
    liverpool19734 is offline Academy prospect
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    10,684
    Quote Originally Posted by fredthecamel View Post
    thats a good excuse for not signing players

    what if they had flopped

    maybe he should never sign nyone in case they flop
    Or just wait till the summer where he can get who he wants and can give them a preseason to adapt. It is funny none of the other top 6 signed anyone either, if only there was a logical reason for this.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  11. #41  
    fredthecamel is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    37,318
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach791 View Post
    I understand fans wanting short term success. When you haven't won a title in 27 years, qualified once for Champions League in the last 6 years and finished 8th last season i think expecting instant short term success is beyond ridiculous.

    There are so many things we need to do to achieve success. Success isn't handed, you can't just ask for it. You build it and fans want success before the foundations for success are even built. So whilst i understand fans wanting success as Klopp himself said just wanting it is useless.

    You must create it and build it and improve and keep improving. That's different from Arsenal qualifying for every Champions League but never making a step up. our fans want us to jump from 8th to 1st not spending a penny. Surely you can see that's unrealistic. Possible, I gave us a shot at title this season but going from 8th to 3rd is a good step wouldn't you say?
    show me how many of our faans on here want us to do it without spending a penny...

    most of us want the club to spend nd spend resonably big on quality for the squad
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  12. #42  
    Coach791 is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    34,522
    Quote Originally Posted by fredthecamel View Post
    thats a good excuse for not signing players

    what if they had flopped

    maybe he should never sign nyone in case they flop
    ...... I said Klopp prefers to sign players he's sure of. How have you translated that to he doesn't like signing players and that's an excuse.

    Look at the two players Klopp signed without knowing them. Grujic and Caulker and neither worked out so far. He signed Klavan because Sakho's antics and didn't have time to plan and he hasn't worked out.

    He identified and planned 4 signings in summer Matip, Wijnaldum, Mane and Karius and 3 out of the 4 have been superb. So why not let him plan more signings? Why do you have to tell Klopp what he should or shouldn't do?
    Last edited by Jannno; 11-4-17 at 13:38. Reason: don't get personal please
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  13. #43  
    fredthecamel is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    37,318
    Quote Originally Posted by liverpool19734 View Post
    Or just wait till the summer where he can get who he wants and can give them a preseason to adapt. It is funny none of the other top 6 signed anyone either, if only there was a logical reason for this.
    yeaah but then in summer sign enough for the whole year.....so that we arent in the depths of such a constant injury crisis next season
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  14. #44  
    Coach791 is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    34,522
    Quote Originally Posted by fredthecamel View Post
    show me how many of our faans on here want us to do it without spending a penny...

    most of us want the club to spend nd spend resonably big on quality for the squad
    I didn't say that. I said fans some expect us to go from 8th to 1st having NOT SPENT A PENNY. We didn't spend money in summer that's a fact, we broke even. I didn't say fans never want us to spend a penny.

    I saying having not won a title in 27 years, qualifying once for Champions League in 6 years and being shocking in it, finishing 8th last season some fans expect us to finish 1st or 2nd this season. If we do great but how about accepting it will take hard work to get to the top rather than just 'your wishes' what you want.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  15. #45  
    fredthecamel is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    37,318
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach791 View Post
    I struggle with you sometimes Fred. I said Klopp prefers to sign players he's sure of. How have you translated that to he doesn't like signing players and that's an excuse.

    Look at the two players Klopp signed without knowing them. Grujic and Caulker and neither worked out so far. He signed Klavan because Sakho's antics and didn't have time to plan and he hasn't worked out.

    He identified and planned 4 signings in summer Matip, Wijnaldum, Mane and Karius and 3 out of the 4 have been superb. So why not let him plan more signings? Why do you have to tell Klopp what he should or shouldn't do?
    because it didnt need to be such a tense end to the season.... he could have made things esier.. i dont know if he s trying to prove himself to be the best boss by attaining top without spending or whether the owners are the ones denying the cash.....

    spending a little more would have given him a little more quality in the squad enhancing our chances and making things just a little bit easier
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  16. #46  
    fredthecamel is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    37,318
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach791 View Post
    I didn't say that. I said fans some expect us to go from 8th to 1st having NOT SPENT A PENNY. We didn't spend money in summer that's a fact, we broke even. I didn't say fans never want us to spend a penny.

    I saying having not won a title in 27 years, qualifying once for Champions League in 6 years and being shocking in it, finishing 8th last season some fans expect us to finish 1st or 2nd this season. If we do great but how about accepting it will take hard work to get to the top rather than just 'your wishes' what you want.
    aapologies i misread then

    he didnt spend a penny last summer.. why is that? is he trying to proove himself the best by doing it without spending a penny or because he would then have an excuse for failure.. is he afriad to spend big?? or is it down to the owners

    he knows full well that none of his preffered targets will be avilable in any janury window now
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  17. #47  
    liverpool19734 is offline Academy prospect
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    10,684
    Quote Originally Posted by fredthecamel View Post
    yeaah but then in summer sign enough for the whole year.....so that we arent in the depths of such a constant injury crisis next season
    I am sure Klopp intends too, we weren't in europe this season that is why we are a bit thin.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  18. #48  
    fredthecamel is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    37,318
    Quote Originally Posted by liverpool19734 View Post
    I am sure Klopp intends too, we weren't in europe this season that is why we are a bit thin.
    bit thin is right..... he s earning his managerial crust now in managing to get results with what he has got
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  19. #49  
    Coach791 is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    34,522
    Quote Originally Posted by fredthecamel View Post
    because it didnt need to be such a tense end to the season.... he could have made things esier.. i dont know if he s trying to prove himself to be the best boss by attaining top without spending or whether the owners are the ones denying the cash.....

    spending a little more would have given him a little more quality in the squad enhancing our chances and making things just a little bit easier
    ..... Instead of focusing on nitpicking Klopp how about we take this in another direction. We haven't won the title in 27 years, we've qualified for Champions League once in 6 years (where we were awful) and we finished 8th last season.

    Given all that information and given in summer we were massively outspent by all our rivals. What do you think is a reasonable finish? 1st is that what you're saying? 2nd? Or do you consider finishing 8th and then being outspent and actually climbing to 3rd and qualifying for the CL again in Klopp's first full season is actually a decent season if it finishes that way?

    So why not put your petty complaints aside and just think that's pretty fair performance given where we have been the last 7 years. Then look forward to next season. If your complaint against Klopp is he didn't get to 3rd how you wanted him to, or you'd have preferred him to get 3rd but in a way that wasn't tense for you then you're probably not suited to being a football supporter in the Premier League.

    It's always tense and close and it will be next season and season after and season after that. Now you have a choice. You can learn to handle the fact its tense or expect the whole club to make it easier for you which isn't possible.
    Last edited by Jannno; 11-4-17 at 13:45. Reason: personal put down again. Next one will make your points add up to an auto ban
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  20. #50  
    liverpool19734 is offline Academy prospect
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    10,684
    Quote Originally Posted by fredthecamel View Post
    bit thin is right..... he s earning his managerial crust now in managing to get results with what he has got
    It is also allowing him too see how good the youngsters are, we'll be better off next season because of this as well.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  21. #51  
    Coach791 is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    34,522
    Quote Originally Posted by fredthecamel View Post
    aapologies i misread then

    he didnt spend a penny last summer.. why is that? is he trying to proove himself the best by doing it without spending a penny or because he would then have an excuse for failure.. is he afriad to spend big?? or is it down to the owners

    he knows full well that none of his preffered targets will be avilable in any janury window now
    No the same reason he didn't buy in Jan. He's told you this several times. He said there was no plan to break even his plan is he prefers to sign players he can trust. there's evidence to support we should do that.

    He signed Grujic without watching him live, he'd seen Caulker live once and Klavan was a reaction signing and they haven't worked. The ones he has planned most have been great.

    It's like you ask the same question different ways. Why didn't he sign in Jan, why didn't he spend more and the answer is the same to both you just don't like the answer.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  22. #52  
    fredthecamel is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    37,318
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach791 View Post
    Oh poor Fred it's a bit tense for you is it? Instead of focusing on nitpicking Klopp how about we take this in another direction. We haven't won the title in 27 years, we've qualified for Champions League once in 6 years (where we were awful) and we finished 8th last season.

    Given all that information and given in summer we were massively outspent by all our rivals. What do you think is a reasonable finish? 1st is that what you're saying? 2nd? Or do you consider finishing 8th and then being outspent and actually climbing to 3rd and qualifying for the CL again in Klopp's first full season is actually a decent season if it finishes that way?

    So why not put your petty complaints aside and just think that's pretty fair performance given where we have been the last 7 years. Then look forward to next season. If your complaint against Klopp is he didn't get to 3rd how you wanted him to, or you'd have preferred him to get 3rd but in a way that wasn't tense for you then you're probably not suited to being a football supporter in the Premier League.

    It's always tense and close and it will be next season and season after and season after that. Now you have a choice. You can learn to handle the fact its tense or expect the whole club to make it easier for you which isn't possible.

    it will be a great finish if he comes 3rd.....but on dec 20th first loooked a distinct possibilty with a couple of january signings...

    i remember last time we finished second and didnt sign anyone in january that season also... could have made the difference, all conjecture now.......

    my point is it could have been made easier. he knew last season we needed wingers plural ,,, and signed one and shipped 2 out
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  23. #53  
    Coach791 is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    34,522
    Quote Originally Posted by liverpool19734 View Post
    It is also allowing him too see how good the youngsters are, we'll be better off next season because of this as well.
    In all honesty just my personal opinion as a manager if you had time you'd probably prefer to spend most your first 12 months assessing your squad and developing your tactics bringing in a few players you know.

    I mean look at what Klopp has done with changing Milner, Frmino's, Lallana's and Henderson's position this season. That's through assessing what he has.

    Youngsters need chances. Fans seem to think the ONLY way to solve a problem is sign somebody, sign them now sign them regardless if you know enough about them and just risk, risk, risk, more, more, more.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  24. #54  
    fredthecamel is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    37,318
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach791 View Post
    No the same reason he didn't buy in Jan. He's told you this several times. He said there was no plan to break even his plan is he prefers to sign players he can trust. there's evidence to support we should do that.

    He signed Grujic without watching him live, he'd seen Caulker live once and Klavan was a reaction signing and they haven't worked. The ones he has planned most have been great.

    It's like you ask the same question different ways. Why didn't he sign in Jan, why didn't he spend more and the answer is the same to both you just don't like the answer.
    i dont know the answer to why he didnt sign more in summer or january.. i know the words coming out of his mouth but i m a bit long in the tooth to take things at face value and trust a global business to be fortright and frank and honest

    i d love to know whether funds hve been available even in january.. we re always told there are but i dont trust a word that comes out of tom werners mouth
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  25. #55  
    fredthecamel is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    37,318
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach791 View Post
    No the same reason he didn't buy in Jan. He's told you this several times. He said there was no plan to break even his plan is he prefers to sign players he can trust. there's evidence to support we should do that.

    He signed Grujic without watching him live, he'd seen Caulker live once and Klavan was a reaction signing and they haven't worked. The ones he has planned most have been great.

    It's like you ask the same question different ways. Why didn't he sign in Jan, why didn't he spend more and the answer is the same to both you just don't like the answer.
    he signed grujic without ever watching him live? really? i learn somethign new today.. why the hell would he do that?
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  26. #56  
    Coach791 is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    34,522
    Quote Originally Posted by fredthecamel View Post
    it will be a great finish if he comes 3rd.....but on dec 20th first loooked a distinct possibilty with a couple of january signings...

    i remember last time we finished second and didnt sign anyone in january that season also... could have made the difference, all conjecture now.......

    my point is it could have been made easier. he knew last season we needed wingers plural ,,, and signed one and shipped 2 out
    No you don't. You don't remember a thing. Our form after January was the best Premier League form in our history after not signing anybody. We pulled out of Konoplyanka deal and sterling was better that season that Kono could have ever been.

    So you don't remember a thing. You only have one thought 'it could have been better had we signed somebody' and yet you ignore all the transfer flops. Now we didn't sign somebody in Jan when we finished 2nd and yet had our best run of results ever in the Premier League with Sterling being sensational.

    You're blaming our best finish and best run on not signing somebody. Unbelievable. Every single answer you have for anything ever is new signings.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  27. #57  
    fredthecamel is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    37,318
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach791 View Post
    In all honesty just my personal opinion as a manager if you had time you'd probably prefer to spend most your first 12 months assessing your squad and developing your tactics bringing in a few players you know.

    I mean look at what Klopp has done with changing Milner, Frmino's, Lallana's and Henderson's position this season. That's through assessing what he has.

    Youngsters need chances. Fans seem to think the ONLY way to solve a problem is sign somebody, sign them now sign them regardless if you know enough about them and just risk, risk, risk, more, more, more.
    youngsters do need chances in cup games not vital end of season crucial matches where the weight of the whole fan base is on their fledgling shoulders... they need to be introduced alongside our top stars not in lieu of them..

    sink or swim tactics that
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  28. #58  
    Coach791 is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    34,522
    Quote Originally Posted by fredthecamel View Post
    he signed grujic without ever watching him live? really? i learn somethign new today.. why the hell would he do that?
    Under recommendation. You don't remember Klopp saying after watching him live pre season it was his first time? You trust your scouts and those you're close to.

    Most youngsters are signed not from managers live scouting.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  29. #59  
    fredthecamel is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    37,318
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach791 View Post
    No you don't. You don't remember a thing. Our form after January was the best Premier League form in our history after not signing anybody. We pulled out of Konoplyanka deal and sterling was better that season that Kono could have ever been.

    So you don't remember a thing. You only have one thought 'it could have been better had we signed somebody' and yet you ignore all the transfer flops. Now we didn't sign somebody in Jan when we finished 2nd and yet had our best run of results ever in the Premier League with Sterling being sensational.

    You're blaming our best finish and best run on not signing somebody. Unbelievable. Every single answer you have for anything ever is new signings.
    no i m saying if we had signed someone maybe it would have been a title and not a second placed finish
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  30. #60  
    fredthecamel is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    37,318
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach791 View Post
    Under recommendation. You don't remember Klopp saying after watching him live pre season it was his first time? You trust your scouts and those you're close to.

    Most youngsters are signed not from managers live scouting.
    no must have missed that.. i dont watch too many preseason games any year
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   



Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •