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Thread: Our manager - Jurgen Klopp - Part deux...

  1. #61  
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    Imagine this Fred, another potential or hypothetical outcome...............................

    Klopp in addition to signings last summer decided not to utilise Milner left back, Henderson at 6, Lallana in a midfield 3 and Firmino up front and instead signed 4 new players at a cost of 120m.

    With so many new faces we were brushed aside at Arsenal. No cohesion, team doesn't get Klopp's tactics yet and fans see us mid table in Jan after spending 100m in summer. How many would be calling for Klopp's head?

    So you see signing lots of players, for lots of money isn't always the solution especially when Klopp's success is based on mentality and tactical approach and new players don't get it for some months.

    This fantasy football world where signing more and more players has to be better is just that...........fantasy.

    If we get 3rd, if we qualify for Champions League here's what you say. Well done lads. Given we finished 8th last season that's a big improvement.
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    I think there's a lot of supporters, myself included who cant understand why we went into the season so weak in several key positions such as at leftback and the wings. Milner (as great a pro as he is) is not a leftback and has had mixed performances all year. Our 433 formation relies a lot on wingers, mane has been a revolution out wide with his pace and will to drive, yet he was our only out and out winger going into the season. Since then we have the likes of coutinho, firmino and origi shifted out wide to varying effectiveness.

    So I don't know what explanation is more worrying

    1. Klopp genuinely thought it was fine in the summer and then again decided all was grand in the winter window
    2. Klopp wanted to buy but his first choice targets were unavailable and there were seemingly no alternatives
    3. Transfer funds were withheld

    Maybe combinations of those
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canners View Post
    I think there's a lot of supporters, myself included who cant understand why we went into the season so weak in several key positions such as at leftback and the wings. Milner (as great a pro as he is) is not a leftback and has had mixed performances all year. Our 433 formation relies a lot on wingers, mane has been a revolution out wide with his pace and will to drive, yet he was our only out and out winger going into the season. Since then we have the likes of coutinho, firmino and origi shifted out wide to varying effectiveness.

    So I don't know what explanation is more worrying

    1. Klopp genuinely thought it was fine in the summer and then again decided all was grand in the winter window
    2. Klopp wanted to buy but his first choice targets were unavailable and there were seemingly no alternatives
    3. Transfer funds were withheld

    Maybe combinations of those
    Why are you limiting yourself to 3 explanations all of which worry and you deciding only from them? I've given an alternative explanation that isn't at all worrying.
    Last edited by Coach791; 11-4-17 at 13:59.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mysteron View Post
    If I was in the crowd at the match - I would agree and indeed that is what i used to do......

    But we ain't at the ground, or at a match.....

    So the analysis is....
    can wait?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach791 View Post
    I think managers have more knowledge and more information than fans do and personally I think Wenger thought they'd struggle financially to compete so built a style of football smaller, technical players could develop in. Create a system of sustainability.

    For example take Klopp at Dortmund and the players they have seen successfully graduate in Gotze, Pulisic, these aren't big powerful players. Vast majority of Barcelona's players are not big powerful players though Pique and Busquets stand out as tall players they're exceptions.

    The clubs with the most productive styles for younger players tend to be more technical. It's very hard to being players through in a more powerful, physical, dominant side. Even big young players are rarely ready to mix it in say a Mourinho or Benitez side if they're not defenders.

    Even players like Matic and Pogba had to move away and then come back. I think each manager from Klopp, Wenger, Guardiola have certain ideas about right now and ideas about the future. Criticisms of wenger is that he's too much long term sustainability but that's seen him be a manager across two decades.

    Some would say Mourinho is too focused on the now which brings great success but gets him sacked from big clubs when can't sustain it. The difficult is Arsenal fans now want titles and they understand that the system Arsene created has sustained them through being unable to financially compete.

    Now they want change and they want short term success and you can understand that.
    It's not unable though is it? It's unwilling. Kroenke has a fortune the size of Abramovich and Usmanov has a fortune which dwarfs Abramovich - something like threefold. Arsenal have been able to financially compete for some years now, but choose not to. You can understand the fans' frustrations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach791 View Post
    Why are you limiting yourself to 3 explanations all of which worry and you deciding only from them? I've given an alternative explanation that isn't all worrying.
    This one Coach?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coach791 View Post
    Imagine this Fred, another potential or hypothetical outcome...............................

    Klopp in addition to signings last summer decided not to utilise Milner left back, Henderson at 6, Lallana in a midfield 3 and Firmino up front and instead signed 4 new players at a cost of 120m.

    With so many new faces we were brushed aside at Arsenal. No cohesion, team doesn't get Klopp's tactics yet and fans see us mid table in Jan after spending 100m in summer. How many would be calling for Klopp's head?

    So you see signing lots of players, for lots of money isn't always the solution especially when Klopp's success is based on mentality and tactical approach and new players don't get it for some months.

    This fantasy football world where signing more and more players has to be better is just that...........fantasy.

    If we get 3rd, if we qualify for Champions League here's what you say. Well done lads. Given we finished 8th last season that's a big improvement.
    That's a different hypothetical situation opposite to mine. I am approaching from point of view that the first XI is not fantastic and the squad depth overall was/is poor. I am suggesting it would have been beneficial to sign some players who for example;

    a) Could play leftback better than Moreno, giving us more options with milner. either to keep him at leftback with an option to rotate or move him into midfield and start this new leftback
    b) Could play on the wing to cover mane's AFCON period and also give us options other than sticking firmino out wide.

    You are saying that Klopp would be a failure had he signed 4 new supposed players at 120 million who would all have been worse than what we have. Which I think is far fetched.

    I have yet to see an argument that explains how in January we signed nobody. Sure it would have been a risk for us to go and spend 40 million on a proven big name and hope he hits the ground running, but what we needed was depth and cover, not superstars. Klopp has done fantastic with the first XI, we can beat anyone but our problem lies with lack of depth, which was not addressed in either window when it was glaringly obvious.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach791 View Post
    Imagine this Fred, another potential or hypothetical outcome...............................

    Klopp in addition to signings last summer decided not to utilise Milner left back, Henderson at 6, Lallana in a midfield 3 and Firmino up front and instead signed 4 new players at a cost of 120m.

    With so many new faces we were brushed aside at Arsenal. No cohesion, team doesn't get Klopp's tactics yet and fans see us mid table in Jan after spending 100m in summer. How many would be calling for Klopp's head?

    So you see signing lots of players, for lots of money isn't always the solution especially when Klopp's success is based on mentality and tactical approach and new players don't get it for some months.

    This fantasy football world where signing more and more players has to be better is just that...........fantasy.

    If we get 3rd, if we qualify for Champions League here's what you say. Well done lads. Given we finished 8th last season that's a big improvement.
    What a load of twaddle - there is no another potential or hypothetical outcome.. What we have is what it is.... no what if.....

    And the facts are 28 players have represented LFC this season, 14 have gone out on loan
    So out of 42 players we managed to lose to Wolves in the FA Cup, lose both legs of the League Cup Semi Final with Southampton 1-0....
    We only signed one wide man in Mane, when we knew we needed more width and pace in the side

    We did manage to go the season undefeated at the top 7 sides, yet the kudos and credit gained through, this was lost with our defeats to Hull, Burnley, Leicester, Swansea and Bournemouth

    So you come out with too many new faces is not the right call especially for lots of money - hahaha

    There is the free market - the loan market - Coach - Klopp's job is to evaluate that he has all bases covered - he didn't
    His misguidance in what was here is a clear oversight
    There is no fantasy in signing players, it just helps if you sign the right ones.... ones that can deliver, ones that will put in a shift for the cause
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canners View Post
    This one Coach?



    That's a different hypothetical situation opposite to mine. I am approaching from point of view that the first XI is not fantastic and the squad depth overall was/is poor. I am suggesting it would have been beneficial to sign some players who for example;

    a) Could play leftback better than Moreno, giving us more options with milner. either to keep him at leftback with an option to rotate or move him into midfield and start this new leftback
    b) Could play on the wing to cover mane's AFCON period and also give us options other than sticking firmino out wide.

    You are saying that Klopp would be a failure had he signed 4 new supposed players at 120 million who would all have been worse than what we have. Which I think is far fetched.

    I have yet to see an argument that explains how in January we signed nobody. Sure it would have been a risk for us to go and spend 40 million on a proven big name and hope he hits the ground running, but what we needed was depth and cover, not superstars. Klopp has done fantastic with the first XI, we can beat anyone but our problem lies with lack of depth, which was not addressed in either window when it was glaringly obvious.
    When looking at the last 10 odd months, yes the squad depth wasn't addressed but if like Klopp, I suspect, you're looking at an overall 3 year picture then he still has time to add to the squad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canners View Post
    This one Coach?



    That's a different hypothetical situation opposite to mine. I am approaching from point of view that the first XI is not fantastic and the squad depth overall was/is poor. I am suggesting it would have been beneficial to sign some players who for example;

    a) Could play leftback better than Moreno, giving us more options with milner. either to keep him at leftback with an option to rotate or move him into midfield and start this new leftback
    b) Could play on the wing to cover mane's AFCON period and also give us options other than sticking firmino out wide.

    You are saying that Klopp would be a failure had he signed 4 new supposed players at 120 million who would all have been worse than what we have. Which I think is far fetched.

    I have yet to see an argument that explains how in January we signed nobody. Sure it would have been a risk for us to go and spend 40 million on a proven big name and hope he hits the ground running, but what we needed was depth and cover, not superstars. Klopp has done fantastic with the first XI, we can beat anyone but our problem lies with lack of depth, which was not addressed in either window when it was glaringly obvious.
    Like that
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canners View Post
    This one Coach?



    That's a different hypothetical situation opposite to mine. I am approaching from point of view that the first XI is not fantastic and the squad depth overall was/is poor. I am suggesting it would have been beneficial to sign some players who for example;

    a) Could play leftback better than Moreno, giving us more options with milner. either to keep him at leftback with an option to rotate or move him into midfield and start this new leftback
    b) Could play on the wing to cover mane's AFCON period and also give us options other than sticking firmino out wide.

    You are saying that Klopp would be a failure had he signed 4 new supposed players at 120 million who would all have been worse than what we have. Which I think is far fetched.

    I have yet to see an argument that explains how in January we signed nobody. Sure it would have been a risk for us to go and spend 40 million on a proven big name and hope he hits the ground running, but what we needed was depth and cover, not superstars. Klopp has done fantastic with the first XI, we can beat anyone but our problem lies with lack of depth, which was not addressed in either window when it was glaringly obvious.
    My hypothetical alternative possibility was to show that scenario's where signing more players doesn't work out better. Now lets assess what you said.

    1. You said there are a lot of supporters that don't understand why we are so weak in many positions. You're absolutely right. There are a lot of supporters that don't understand. You cannot blame Klopp for this.
    2. Milner has had mixed performances all year. Every player has mixed performances. Milner has improved upon Moreno. If Klopp could not sign a left back he was sure would be better than Milner that's fine.
    3. Our 433 formation relies a lot on wingers. Partially true but Klopp hasn't created a typical 4-3-3 system something that has escaped your analysis. For this part I can show you the thinking of Milner left back and walk you through the complex planning Klopp has put in.

    Klopp was without a defined holding player, a striker he could rely in, Lallana wasn't effective so he created a different system to that off last season. Firstly Firmino playing a key role. Pressing from the front and pushing the opposition down there left and our right which allows Mane and Lallana to stay as part of that press. That's massively contributed to their great seasons. Behind that they need cover so Clyne and Henderson both solid and Henderson with bags of energy instead of having Henderson sit as a 6 he gives licence to cover and use his athletic ability. This has contributed to Henderson having a great season.

    That opens up space down the left and this is where you get those midfielders on the ball that can play. Milner plays much like a midfielder in the build up and joins Coutinho and Wijnaldum and we play between the lines. Now in this system it is difficult to find a left back with the intelligence and footballing ability of Milner because it's not all about running up and down. There is onus on the build up like Chelsea use Alonso.

    So we don't play with two wingers is your first answer. It's not that type of 4-3-3. Finding a left back that can build up like Milner, pass like Milner but offer width and pace alternatively is not easy hence Klopp didn't jsut buy anybody. He's not a PC football manager where he uses his mouse to create a formation and sign 12 players at once he has to utilise what he has also.

    Now to the second part

    So I don't know what explanation is more worrying

    1. Klopp genuinely thought it was fine in the summer and then again decided all was grand in the winter window
    2. Klopp wanted to buy but his first choice targets were unavailable and there were seemingly no alternatives
    3. Transfer funds were withheld


    Only fans think we go from 8th to having every position perfectly filled with great players everywhere in one summer. Klopp doesn't think everything is grand you invented this cause yourself to worry. Instead Klopp will know teams got through stages of building tactical foundations, mentality, trust and to continue that wholesale changes to the squad at once can completely undermine that progress.

    So he will be looking at a balance. What is available in the market, are there any players he really believes will fit? What has he got already at his disposal? How can he utilise Henderson, Lallana, Milner and Firmino better? What effect will too many changes have? He's not even dreaming everything is grand.

    It's a process of improvement to him. To fans they think you can solve everything in a summer. To a manager that's worrying that people can think this way but that's the problem.

    Signings are only one solution. A good one if you get them right, get them wrong you're sacked so if a manager wants to be sure rather than have a supporter scattergun approach it makes sense
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mysteron View Post
    What a load of twaddle - there is no another potential or hypothetical outcome.. What we have is what it is.... no what if.....

    And the facts are 28 players have represented LFC this season, 14 have gone out on loan
    So out of 42 players we managed to lose to Wolves in the FA Cup, lose both legs of the League Cup Semi Final with Southampton 1-0....
    We only signed one wide man in Mane, when we knew we needed more width and pace in the side

    We did manage to go the season undefeated at the top 7 sides, yet the kudos and credit gained through, this was lost with our defeats to Hull, Burnley, Leicester, Swansea and Bournemouth

    So you come out with too many new faces is not the right call especially for lots of money - hahaha

    There is the free market - the loan market - Coach - Klopp's job is to evaluate that he has all bases covered - he didn't
    His misguidance in what was here is a clear oversight
    There is no fantasy in signing players, it just helps if you sign the right ones.... ones that can deliver, ones that will put in a shift for the cause
    For once I agree. What we have is what we have. What we have this season has been a significant improvement on last season as i predicted and you wrongly didn't predict saying worst in history.

    Unfortunately you didn't understand my point, maybe read it again? My point was my hypothetical situation was as likely as Fred's hypothetical situation had we signed players, just like your hypothetical loan stuff.

    What we have is what we have and it's been a big improvement. You can continue to accuse Klopp of misguidance and you can believe that. My opinion is you don't know enough about football to make that call from what I read. You can call my posts twaddle that's fine I can see the main issue is with you not knowing enough.

    That's true of most supporters.
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  12. #72  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach791 View Post
    I think managers have more knowledge and more information than fans do and personally I think Wenger thought they'd struggle financially to compete so built a style of football smaller, technical players could develop in. Create a system of sustainability.

    For example take Klopp at Dortmund and the players they have seen successfully graduate in Gotze, Pulisic, these aren't big powerful players. Vast majority of Barcelona's players are not big powerful players though Pique and Busquets stand out as tall players they're exceptions.

    The clubs with the most productive styles for younger players tend to be more technical. It's very hard to being players through in a more powerful, physical, dominant side. Even big young players are rarely ready to mix it in say a Mourinho or Benitez side if they're not defenders.

    Even players like Matic and Pogba had to move away and then come back. I think each manager from Klopp, Wenger, Guardiola have certain ideas about right now and ideas about the future. Criticisms of wenger is that he's too much long term sustainability but that's seen him be a manager across two decades.

    Some would say Mourinho is too focused on the now which brings great success but gets him sacked from big clubs when can't sustain it. The difficult is Arsenal fans now want titles and they understand that the system Arsene created has sustained them through being unable to financially compete.

    Now they want change and they want short term success and you can understand that.
    His eye for quality players in my opinion is the main problem, he simply isn't as sharp as he used to be, spends 35 million on an average player like Mustafi, a few years back he was getting Kolo for 150k and Campbell for nothing, spotting Clichy at a young age, wasted I don't know how much a defenders now.

    The mentality of the side is weak as well, we are far from perfect ourselves but look at how Klopp get the players motivated in big matches, I have lost count how many times he as beaten the top 4 teams.
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    Quote Originally Posted by *Shriekback* View Post
    His eye for quality players in my opinion is the main problem, he simply isn't as sharp as he used to be, spends 35 million on an average player like Mustafi, a few years back he was getting Kolo for 150k and Campbell for nothing, spotting Clichy at a young age, wasted I don't know how much a defenders now.

    The mentality of the side is weak as well.
    He benefited from an advanced scouting system ahead of its time for sure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach791 View Post
    He benefited from an advanced scouting system ahead of its time for sure.
    I hope he signs that 2 year deal, it would be good news for us
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach791 View Post
    For once I agree. What we have is what we have. What we have this season has been a significant improvement on last season as i predicted and you wrongly didn't predict saying worst in history.

    Unfortunately you didn't understand my point, maybe read it again? My point was my hypothetical situation was as likely as Fred's hypothetical situation had we signed players, just like your hypothetical loan stuff.

    What we have is what we have and it's been a big improvement. You can continue to accuse Klopp of misguidance and you can believe that. My opinion is you don't know enough about football to make that call from what I read. You can call my posts twaddle that's fine I can see the main issue is with you not knowing enough.

    That's true of most supporters.
    I understand more than enough - thankfully yours and my paths only cross on here....

    I understand how wrong you are by saying
    this season has been a significant improvement on last season as i predicted and you wrongly didn't predict
    This season - No Europe - out of the FA Cup in the 4th Round to Wolves - out of the League Cup in the semi finals to Southampton - At the moment 3rd in the league
    Last season - The Final of the Europa vs Sevilla - the League Cup final vs Man City - out of the FA Cup to West Ham - finished 8th in the league

    So you are wrong this season is worse - no europe - no finals - the only bright spot is we may finish top 4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mysteron View Post
    I understand more than enough - thankfully yours and my paths only cross on here....

    I understand how wrong you are by saying
    This season - No Europe - out of the FA Cup in the 4th Round to Wolves - out of the League Cup in the semi finals to Southampton - At the moment 3rd in the league
    Last season - The Final of the Europa vs Sevilla - the League Cup final vs Man City - out of the FA Cup to West Ham - finished 8th in the league

    So you are wrong this season is worse - no europe - no finals - the only bright spot is we may finish top 4
    Unless you're from Mars you will be able to understand no Europe this season is because we didn't qualify LAST SEASON. Are you suggesting better form this season would have been rewarded with some kind of invitation?

    The measure of your development is league position. Cup runs can come and go especially for managers arriving. For example Kenny's first full season made two finals, Rafa's first two seasons two finals, Klopp's first season two finals.

    That's not a measure of progression but certainly great signs.

    Now anybody can see we are better this season than last. If you wish to debate that and say we're better last season that's your choice. However that position and the fact you consider this seasons failure to play in Europe is a a result of Klopp's performance this season when qualification is actually achieved the season before is just plain bizarre.

    Think about what you're saying. We were so bad last season we finished 8th and didn't qualify for Europe. That means we are crap this season because we didn't play in Europe.

    Champions League was the goal this season. You said that was beyond us. You said worst squad in history so i understand why you're saying because we haven't played in Europe this season we're worse even though you qualify the season prior and we didn't.

    It's just the Ron merry go round of statements that don't make sense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach791 View Post
    Unless you're from Mars you will be able to understand no Europe this season is because we didn't qualify LAST SEASON. Are you suggesting better form this season would have been rewarded with some kind of invitation?

    The measure of your development is league position. Cup runs can come and go especially for managers arriving. For example Kenny's first full season made two finals, Rafa's first two seasons two finals, Klopp's first season two finals.

    That's not a measure of progression but certainly great signs.

    Now anybody can see we are better this season than last. If you wish to debate that and say we're better last season that's your choice. However that position and the fact you consider this seasons failure to play in Europe is a a result of Klopp's performance this season when qualification is actually achieved the season before is just plain bizarre.

    Think about what you're saying. We were so bad last season we finished 8th and didn't qualify for Europe. That means we are crap this season because we didn't play in Europe.

    Champions League was the goal this season. You said that was beyond us. You said worst squad in history so i understand why you're saying because we haven't played in Europe this season we're worse even though you qualify the season prior and we didn't.

    It's just the Ron merry go round of statements that don't make sense.
    The league is not the only measure -
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mysteron View Post
    The league is not the only measure -
    It's the best measure. You said it was the only real measure. You don't accept anything less than 1st place. Remember?

    We're closer to 1st place this season than last. You understand 3rd is closer to 1st than 8th right? We did better in the cups last season and part of that would have been the momentum from Klopp arriving.

    Now things are settling you have a clearer indication of where we are and that's better than last season.

    You criticise us for not playing in Europe this season but ignore the fact that's because of last season. I don't even know what your point is but we're better than last season end of story.

    The only reason I can think of for a potential loss of eyesight is that in fact as you predicted this was the worst squad in our history and the fact we're in 3rd position with 6 games to go you're looking to put down that improvement any chance you can.

    I on the other predicted a potential title push and good chance of finishing Top 4. So now even though it's insane not to accept we're better this season you're talking about finishing 8th as us being better. Last season you were lambasting 8th.

    Flip flop, flip flop.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach791 View Post
    It's the best measure. You said it was the only real measure. You don't accept anything less than 1st place. Remember?

    We're closer to 1st place this season than last. You understand 3rd is closer to 1st than 8th right? We did better in the cups last season and part of that would have been the momentum from Klopp arriving.

    Now things are settling you have a clearer indication of where we are and that's better than last season.

    You criticise us for not playing in Europe this season but ignore the fact that's because of last season. I don't even know what your point is but we're better than last season end of story.

    The only reason I can think of for a potential loss of eyesight is that in fact as you predicted this was the worst squad in our history and the fact we're in 3rd position with 6 games to go you're looking to put down that improvement any chance you can.

    I on the other predicted a potential title push and good chance of finishing Top 4. So now even though it's insane not to accept we're better this season you're talking about finishing 8th as us being better. Last season you were lambasting 8th.

    Flip flop, flip flop.
    Despite your condescending crap and flip flops

    The league is the ultimate goal - but a good season is not just defined by the league - Now I don't know which part of that you don't get.....
    I want perfection - 1st in everything - thats a lot to work towards - it means that crap is crap and you don't have to make do with it....

    And it means I am entirely disappointed at our failure.....

    But you are alright, coz you keep watering your standards, so that failure can be deemed a success
    Last edited by Mysteron; 11-4-17 at 15:26.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WinterPool Stark View Post
    When looking at the last 10 odd months, yes the squad depth wasn't addressed but if like Klopp, I suspect, you're looking at an overall 3 year picture then he still has time to add to the squad.
    This.

    Klopp wasn't in a hurry to try and do it all last summer or in January. He's building for the medium-long term, not a 1-2 yr smash, grab, and get out a la Mourinho...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach791 View Post
    My hypothetical alternative possibility was to show that scenario's where signing more players doesn't work out better. Now lets assess what you said.

    1. You said there are a lot of supporters that don't understand why we are so weak in many positions. You're absolutely right. There are a lot of supporters that don't understand. You cannot blame Klopp for this.
    2. Milner has had mixed performances all year. Every player has mixed performances. Milner has improved upon Moreno. If Klopp could not sign a left back he was sure would be better than Milner that's fine.
    3. Our 433 formation relies a lot on wingers. Partially true but Klopp hasn't created a typical 4-3-3 system something that has escaped your analysis. For this part I can show you the thinking of Milner left back and walk you through the complex planning Klopp has put in.

    Klopp was without a defined holding player, a striker he could rely in, Lallana wasn't effective so he created a different system to that off last season. Firstly Firmino playing a key role. Pressing from the front and pushing the opposition down there left and our right which allows Mane and Lallana to stay as part of that press. That's massively contributed to their great seasons. Behind that they need cover so Clyne and Henderson both solid and Henderson with bags of energy instead of having Henderson sit as a 6 he gives licence to cover and use his athletic ability. This has contributed to Henderson having a great season.

    That opens up space down the left and this is where you get those midfielders on the ball that can play. Milner plays much like a midfielder in the build up and joins Coutinho and Wijnaldum and we play between the lines. Now in this system it is difficult to find a left back with the intelligence and footballing ability of Milner because it's not all about running up and down. There is onus on the build up like Chelsea use Alonso.

    So we don't play with two wingers is your first answer. It's not that type of 4-3-3. Finding a left back that can build up like Milner, pass like Milner but offer width and pace alternatively is not easy hence Klopp didn't jsut buy anybody. He's not a PC football manager where he uses his mouse to create a formation and sign 12 players at once he has to utilise what he has also.

    Now to the second part

    So I don't know what explanation is more worrying

    1. Klopp genuinely thought it was fine in the summer and then again decided all was grand in the winter window
    2. Klopp wanted to buy but his first choice targets were unavailable and there were seemingly no alternatives
    3. Transfer funds were withheld


    Only fans think we go from 8th to having every position perfectly filled with great players everywhere in one summer. Klopp doesn't think everything is grand you invented this cause yourself to worry. Instead Klopp will know teams got through stages of building tactical foundations, mentality, trust and to continue that wholesale changes to the squad at once can completely undermine that progress.

    So he will be looking at a balance. What is available in the market, are there any players he really believes will fit? What has he got already at his disposal? How can he utilise Henderson, Lallana, Milner and Firmino better? What effect will too many changes have? He's not even dreaming everything is grand.

    It's a process of improvement to him. To fans they think you can solve everything in a summer. To a manager that's worrying that people can think this way but that's the problem.

    Signings are only one solution. A good one if you get them right, get them wrong you're sacked so if a manager wants to be sure rather than have a supporter scattergun approach it makes sense
    Theres a lot of good points in there but id like to pick out a few I disagree with or find worthy

    1. I would agree with milner being being better than Moreno but he is still defensively suspect, despite all the great attacking width he offers (altho his final delivery is often suspect). Milners lack of pace combined with Klopps tactics of having him support offensively is in my opinion outweighed by the defensive fragility down that side. You say milner plays like a midfielder. That is because he IS a midfielder who has been forced into playing left back. Many of good things james provides could perhaps be offered by playing him in a midfield role.

    2. As for leftback I agree it would be difficult for a manager to identify one who could offer everything milner has going forward but who also has the athletic and defensive qualities aswell. Difficult but not impossible. Klopp/the club had the whole summer and then the first half of the season to identify such a leftback and bring him in. They have failed in this regard.

    3. This notion of "using what he has" and your bit about not having a defined holding player so having to use Henderson etc. Whilst that's all well and good, hendos been great under Klopp) it is a concern that he did not go out and buy this defined holding player when he has had 3 windows in which to do so. Yet again hes had to come up with a patchwork scheme which whilst it has worked more often and not is worrying. For too many years we have seen square pegs in round holes, especially in our midfield. It is almost impossible I believe to win the league without having recognised holding midfielders.

    4. Again you have painted me as wanting tons of new signings. I am not one of those supporters. I respect his approach to transfers, he made smart signings in matip and mane, wig has done well and been an important part of the midfield, karius has badly underperforming but has huge potential. He has helped coach and improve existing players. But the bottom line is many of this squad are not good enough to be challenging for the title and the depth is not good enough to compete on multiple fronts. This point was clear in January. Using the examples of leftback and wingers I find it surprising he could not identify and/or buy for those positions, be it for the first XI or just for depth. We are still stumbling our way into 4th when one or two even average signings could have had us going for 2nd and improving cup runs. Klopp must do something similar this summer and add those 3 or 4 top players into the first XI if we want to win trophies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canners View Post
    Theres a lot of good points in there but id like to pick out a few I disagree with or find worthy

    1. I would agree with milner being being better than Moreno but he is still defensively suspect, despite all the great attacking width he offers (altho his final delivery is often suspect). Milners lack of pace combined with Klopps tactics of having him support offensively is in my opinion outweighed by the defensive fragility down that side. You say milner plays like a midfielder. That is because he IS a midfielder who has been forced into playing left back. Many of good things james provides could perhaps be offered by playing him in a midfield role.

    2. As for leftback I agree it would be difficult for a manager to identify one who could offer everything milner has going forward but who also has the athletic and defensive qualities aswell. Difficult but not impossible. Klopp/the club had the whole summer and then the first half of the season to identify such a leftback and bring him in. They have failed in this regard.

    3. This notion of "using what he has" and your bit about not having a defined holding player so having to use Henderson etc. Whilst that's all well and good, hendos been great under Klopp) it is a concern that he did not go out and buy this defined holding player when he has had 3 windows in which to do so. Yet again hes had to come up with a patchwork scheme which whilst it has worked more often and not is worrying. For too many years we have seen square pegs in round holes, especially in our midfield. It is almost impossible I believe to win the league without having recognised holding midfielders.

    4. Again you have painted me as wanting tons of new signings. I am not one of those supporters. I respect his approach to transfers, he made smart signings in matip and mane, wig has done well and been an important part of the midfield, karius has badly underperforming but has huge potential. He has helped coach and improve existing players. But the bottom line is many of this squad are not good enough to be challenging for the title and the depth is not good enough to compete on multiple fronts. This point was clear in January. Using the examples of leftback and wingers I find it surprising he could not identify and/or buy for those positions, be it for the first XI or just for depth. We are still stumbling our way into 4th when one or two even average signings could have had us going for 2nd and improving cup runs. Klopp must do something similar this summer and add those 3 or 4 top players into the first XI if we want to win trophies.
    Let's just discuss one at a time. Milner.

    Is he a great defender? No but he's been decent. However our left back isn't as defensive as our right back in this system. I actually highlighted several instances where Clyne made mistakes worse than Milner's but Henderson, Lallana, Mane in front Matip behind they were snuffed out.

    We deliberately create space down our left by blocking our right and Milner, Wijnaldum and Coutinho have been excellent particularly in big games exploiting those spaces. Now it's not perfect but Milner is also a big game player, his mentality means the bigger the game he usually performs.

    So Klopp saw Milner's qualities and thought he'd be good in the role. He has been. If there was a better option to sign Klopp could be sure of he'd have taken him. Clyne isn't perfect either. Garbage at passing, virtually ineffective in attack most games he's not perfect either.

    So let's forget perfection and look at reality. Milner has been an improvement left back. We've improved as a side. There's space to improve still and we will bring a natural left back in the next season or two.

    However let me assure you given the way we play with our left being so open any left back coming in will be exposed and will make mistakes.
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  23. #83  
    MacFoley'1975 is online now First team regular
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    No offence but can we have a Mysteron vs Coach thread, so they can discuss things in there?
    The Normal One (Emlyn is in the house) - Est 1975
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach791 View Post
    Let's just discuss one at a time. Milner.

    Is he a great defender? No but he's been decent. However our left back isn't as defensive as our right back in this system. I actually highlighted several instances where Clyne made mistakes worse than Milner's but Henderson, Lallana, Mane in front Matip behind they were snuffed out.

    We deliberately create space down our left by blocking our right and Milner, Wijnaldum and Coutinho have been excellent particularly in big games exploiting those spaces. Now it's not perfect but Milner is also a big game player, his mentality means the bigger the game he usually performs.

    So Klopp saw Milner's qualities and thought he'd be good in the role. He has been. If there was a better option to sign Klopp could be sure of he'd have taken him. Clyne isn't perfect either. Garbage at passing, virtually ineffective in attack most games he's not perfect either.

    So let's forget perfection and look at reality. Milner has been an improvement left back. We've improved as a side. There's space to improve still and we will bring a natural left back in the next season or two.

    However let me assure you given the way we play with our left being so open any left back coming in will be exposed and will make mistakes.
    Oh well then I guess we will just have to accept that. lets play coutinho at left back if he is going to exposed anyway. The bottom line for me is that LB is a priority area to be improved this summer. I will be very disappointed if we go into it with James Milner as first choice in that position.

    Your argument seems caught between
    a) saying that Klopp wants to play this way with the left wing focus and that milner is the best choice for the left back position in this role
    b) he wanted milner as first choice left back OR couldn't get a better first choice so he has created this system to get the best out of him
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacFoley'1975 View Post
    No offence but can we have a Mysteron vs Coach thread, so they can discuss things in there?
    No offence - but there is no point - the problem is that coz the team is not doing very well - supporters are on different pages
    If the players were doing what was required and trophies were stacking up, then supporters would all be united behind the club.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canners View Post
    Oh well then I guess we will just have to accept that. lets play coutinho at left back if he is going to exposed anyway. The bottom line for me is that LB is a priority area to be improved this summer. I will be very disappointed if we go into it with James Milner as first choice in that position.

    Your argument seems caught between
    a) saying that Klopp wants to play this way with the left wing focus and that milner is the best choice for the left back position in this role
    b) he wanted milner as first choice left back OR couldn't get a better first choice so he has created this system to get the best out of him
    68% of the chances we concede are from the left hand side.
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  27. #87  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mysteron View Post
    No offence - but there is no point - the problem is that coz the team is not doing very well - supporters are on different pages
    If the players were doing what was required and trophies were stacking up, then supporters would all be united behind the club.....
    going from 8th to potentially 3rd isn't doing well?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LW94 View Post
    going from 8th to potentially 3rd isn't doing well?
    Actually 2nd isn't completely out of the question at this point. Spurs have quite a few tricky fixtures left. Only their home vs Bournemouth is one that'd classify as easy IMO. They'd probably still be favored if for no other reason than ManUre rolling over and playing dead just to $%^& us if it came to it but it's not a foregone conclusion at this point.
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  29. #89  
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    Quote Originally Posted by LW94 View Post
    68% of the chances we concede are from the left hand side.
    Does the site you use - show the % for how many goals the front 6 being out of position and not protecting the defence was.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mysteron View Post
    Does the site you use - show the % for how many goals the front 6 being out of position and not protecting the defence was.....
    bit hard to work that one out mate. Maybe you're onto something though if you fancy it.
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