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Thread: One trophy in 8 years and one CL finish, Is that good enough?

  1. #391  
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    Last edited by GrottonRed; 18-5-17 at 15:47. Reason: pack it in
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    Last edited by GrottonRed; 18-5-17 at 15:47. Reason: quotes deleted post
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    Last edited by GrottonRed; 18-5-17 at 15:49. Reason: more of the same
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    The goal for the summer is to spend huge on 5-6 players so we have the foundations of the team in place for the next 4-5 seasons.

    So the following summers should just be about adding one or two players.

    This summer is the key one. The base of the squad.

    I think it should have been done last summer but it wasn't. This summer it needs to be done.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bauer-LFC View Post
    The goal for the summer is to spend huge on 5-6 players so we have the foundations of the team in place for the next 4-5 seasons.

    So the following summers should just be about adding one or two players.

    This summer is the key one. The base of the squad.

    I think it should have been done last summer but it wasn't. This summer it needs to be done.
    can see at least 4 being brought in
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    I think the weakness in this thread is somehow equating Klopp's 18 months as representative of what has happend in the last 8 years. The mark that should be stated is what has happend over the last 27 years and our gradual fall from grace as a premiership winning club. Many reasons can be put forward for this: we became complacent, we walked away from our proven methods, we bought crap players and so on. I have heard so many excuses and frankly sick of all of them. So many factors change every year and we need to adapt to them. I hear the complaint that things haven't been the same since Rafa but we have not failed to reach the top 4 consistently because of him going but because of the rise in spending power of Manchester City. As a club we have simply failed to keep up financially with the new big 4. And that's the issue - with advent of Spurs as a top club after they wisely spent their Bale money, we now belong to the top 6 not the top 4. That Klopp has been able to bring us to the brink of the top 4 with one game to go with the 6th best squad in the league is such a credit to him. And that is what angers me when I see people dirk him since January. He has done absolute wonders with a small squad beset by injuries. People who moan about our results when they don't go our way live in this dream world that we have a God given right to win every game and every trophy. We get linked with players that are never going to come to us but we are aggrieved with everyone because they don't. Sorry but we need to wake up and be realistic. We should have won in 13-14 as we had the third best player in the world dominating the competition. That was our chance but we didn't. The next chance to win a title with our 6th best budget will take time and patience. There are no overnight solutions but hard work and good recruitment. I have faith that Klopp is the man to do this. If Houllier and Rafa were given five or so years, so should he. And I am convinced that he will lead us to our next title.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klopphopper View Post
    I think the weakness in this thread is somehow equating Klopp's 18 months as representative of what has happend in the last 8 years. The mark that should be stated is what has happend over the last 27 years and our gradual fall from grace as a premiership winning club. Many reasons can be put forward for this: we became complacent, we walked away from our proven methods, we bought crap players and so on. I have heard so many excuses and frankly sick of all of them. So many factors change every year and we need to adapt to them. I hear the complaint that things haven't been the same since Rafa but we have not failed to reach the top 4 consistently because of him going but because of the rise in spending power of Manchester City. As a club we have simply failed to keep up financially with the new big 4. And that's the issue - with advent of Spurs as a top club after they wisely spent their Bale money, we now belong to the top 6 not the top 4. That Klopp has been able to bring us to the brink of the top 4 with one game to go with the 6th best squad in the league is such a credit to him. And that is what angers me when I see people dirk him since January. He has done absolute wonders with a small squad beset by injuries. People who moan about our results when they don't go our way live in this dream world that we have a God given right to win every game and every trophy. We get linked with players that are never going to come to us but we are aggrieved with everyone because they don't. Sorry but we need to wake up and be realistic. We should have won in 13-14 as we had the third best player in the world dominating the competition. That was our chance but we didn't. The next chance to win a title with our 6th best budget will take time and patience. There are no overnight solutions but hard work and good recruitment. I have faith that Klopp is the man to do this. If Houllier and Rafa were given five or so years, so should he. And I am convinced that he will lead us to our next title.
    you are right there mate
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyMc9 View Post
    you are right there mate
    I sometimes wonder when I see some of the criticism levelled at Klopp recently whether it is reflective of the age we live in. Everything has to be done now and right away. We want information at our fingertips and we don't have the patience to take a long term approach to anything. It has impacted the political scene in so many western countries and encroaches into sport. I suggest many of our younger fans read Red or Dead. It took Shankly a fair while to build an empire. I shudder to imagine what he would think if he was alive today and seeing a Liverpool manager being criticised so harshly by some after 18 months. I reckon he'd be telling many of us to harden the f--k up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klopphopper View Post
    I sometimes wonder when I see some of the criticism levelled at Klopp recently whether it is reflective of the age we live in. Everything has to be done now and right away. We want information at our fingertips and we don't have the patience to take a long term approach to anything. It has impacted the political scene in some many countries and encroaches into sport. I suggest many of our younger fans read Red or Dead. It took Sbankly a fair while to build an empire. I shudder to imagine what he would think if he was alive today and seeing a Liverpool manager being criticised so harshly by some after 18 months. I reckon he'd be telling many of us to harden the f--k up.
    i actually posted a while back about society these days, i agree people want things instantly and if it doesn't work out then there is complete dissatisfaction, i always believe we live in age in footballing terms where everything is way over analysed , we all want to be carraghers and nevilles which complicates matters further
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyMc9 View Post
    you are right there mate
    Quote Originally Posted by DannyMc9 View Post
    i actually posted a while back about society these days, i agree people want things instantly and if it doesn't work out then there is complete dissatisfaction, i always believe we live in age in footballing terms where everything is way over analysed , we all want to be carraghers and nevilles which complicates matters further
    Yep and especially when we don't have all the information. So many people jumped on Klopp over recent team selections without knowing the full story behind player niggles and injuries. But because it doesn't equate with their thinking they just assume the worst.
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    No way should we unequivocally give klopp a blanket five years. If he's not good enough he should be gone as soon as we believe that

    That's not to say I think he's not good enough. For those who struggle to comprehend, it's more of a theoretical comment on keeping dead weight managers because five year plans sound good
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liverdinner View Post
    No way should we unequivocally give klopp a blanket five years. If he's not good enough he should be gone as soon as we believe that

    That's not to say I think he's not good enough. For those who struggle to comprehend, it's more of a theoretical comment on keeping dead weight managers because five year plans sound good
    Exactly.

    No manager gets 3-5 years unconditionally.

    Progress and results need to be reflected on the pitch for the manager to be given more time. It's how football is.
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    Five years, my brain hurts a lot
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liverdinner View Post
    No way should we unequivocally give klopp a blanket five years. If he's not good enough he should be gone as soon as we believe that

    That's not to say I think he's not good enough. For those who struggle to comprehend, it's more of a theoretical comment on keeping dead weight managers because five year plans sound good
    Can't think of any top clubs nowadays who guarantee any manager a 5 year plan. In fact in global business terms 5 year plans are passe. It was all the rave in the 90s and early noughties, but now...business cultures, including footy, is depressingly so cut-throat
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfield Iron 58 View Post
    Can't think of any top clubs nowadays who guarantee any manager a 5 year plan. In fact in global business terms 5 year plans are passe. It was all the rave in the 90s and early noughties, but now...business cultures, including footy, is depressingly so cut-throat
    Liverpool is the best club for any manager or player. No pressure or anything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liverdinner View Post
    No way should we unequivocally give klopp a blanket five years. If he's not good enough he should be gone as soon as we believe that

    That's not to say I think he's not good enough. For those who struggle to comprehend, it's more of a theoretical comment on keeping dead weight managers because five year plans sound good
    so what constitutes failure after 2 years here?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liverdinner View Post
    No way should we unequivocally give klopp a blanket five years. If he's not good enough he should be gone as soon as we believe that

    That's not to say I think he's not good enough. For those who struggle to comprehend, it's more of a theoretical comment on keeping dead weight managers because five year plans sound good
    And no I wasn't saying that we had to give Klopp five years for those reasons. Obviously I believe what we did with Hodgson was correct. What I am saying though is when you get a class manager like Klopp come in and take over in a substandard situation like he did you need to commit a long term buy in to his strategy. To punt him after 2/3 years would be nonsensical.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klopphopper View Post
    And no I wasn't saying that we had to give Klopp five years for those reasons. Obviously I believe what we did with Hodgson was correct. What I am saying though is when you get a class manager like Klopp come in and take over in a substandard situation like he did you need to commit a long term buy in to his strategy. To punt him after 2/3 years would be nonsensical.
    9 time sout of 10 at a club like ours it'll take a at least 2 seasons to get things the way you want it, if it doesnt start imrpving after that then the real questions are asked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bauer-LFC View Post
    Exactly.

    No manager gets 3-5 years unconditionally.

    Progress and results need to be reflected on the pitch for the manager to be given more time. It's how football is.
    Yeah and not just football. You'd have to be a bit stupid to guarantee a manager five years without any evidence that he deserves it. In any walk of life just about.

    Again, speaking generally here
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyMc9 View Post
    so what constitutes failure after 2 years here?
    I didn't mention failure.

    I said if he's not good enough. I suppose not getting top four is a failure in theory
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klopphopper View Post
    And no I wasn't saying that we had to give Klopp five years for those reasons. Obviously I believe what we did with Hodgson was correct. What I am saying though is when you get a class manager like Klopp come in and take over in a substandard situation like he did you need to commit a long term buy in to his strategy. To punt him after 2/3 years would be nonsensical.
    Sure, if he's up to it. Though five years is a long time in football still. Remember five years ago Mourinho was a god still.

    I also think you can't just say ' class manager ' and excuse anything he does badly. You have to examine critically what he had actually done as manager.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liverdinner View Post
    I didn't mention failure.

    I said if he's not good enough. I suppose not getting top four is a failure in theory
    no i'm meaning in general now for any liverpool manager, because of the way we have been for the past 20 years , after 2 years i think it would be pretty hard to give a good summary of how a manager is doing after 2 years especially considering how far behind we are financially.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyMc9 View Post
    no i'm meaning in general now for any liverpool manager, because of the way we have been for the past 20 years , after 2 years i think it would be pretty hard to give a good summary of how a manager is doing after 2 years especially considering how far behind we are financially.
    That's because Klopp isn't failing. If he had us in 14th place it would be very easy to give a good summary of how he was doing after two years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fowi View Post
    That's because Klopp isn't failing. If he had us in 14th place it would be very easy to give a good summary of how he was doing after two years.
    i know , i'm just asking the quaestion in general for any manager here, unless it's one extreme or another i think it's pretty hard to give an extensive summary on things
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    Is it good enough? No it is not. Simple as.

    Am I happy or even satisfied with where we are now? Yes and no.

    Yes because we've improved on last season both in table position and performances. We demonstrated we had enough quality in a large number of games, to win this title. We would have been closer challengers if Mane had been available more often imo.

    No because not enough of those performances resulted in wins. We lost this title because of that. In those games (and may be one more to come) we demonstrated a lack of something. Nerve? Determination? Focus? No idea.

    Conclusion: We've got a way to go yet.

    I've no real idea what needs to be done to cover the short comings. But here are my guesses.

    1 Increased depth of squad with players of the quality of Mane and perhaps Matip is the nearest I can get.

    2 May be better transfer player fitness selection and care of player fitness from a team stability point of view. Henderson being out threw us for a while. Sturridge's problems mean we can't build around what he has to offer. Mane being out also left us struggling to find the movement of all the players up front, that is naturally there when he plays. Last weeks formation may have resolved that a bit.

    For us, playing a pressing game, if we don't get the movement up front we can't release the recovered ball in any meaningful way. So we need a Mane or two more, to help us deal with injury issues and the parked bus. The usual approach for the parked bus is to keep switching play. To pull the back lines from left to right until a gap appears in the ranks and then use close ball control to get in and exploit it. Often at the far post behind the back line. The faster you can pull them from side to side, (to often we do it but way to slowly) the more likely a gap will appear.

    Our players for that are Mane, Firm and Lala (tinky-winky to be signed in close season). Studge when fit and Cou but only after half a dozen games to find his mojo and then for a half dozen more before he gets injured.
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    7 of the last 8 years have been poor - that's why we've sacked 3 managers. It's harder now than it was to win trophies and finish top 4 due to the emergence of Chelsea, Spurs and City - but Spurs have done/are doing a lot better than us on a smaller budget, so that's the benchmark (though even they haven't won a trophy for 10 years or so).

    On the plus side, we have got close to a few more trophies in that period - it could easily have been 3 or 4 with a bit more luck or bottle, so we're not that far away. But the league form simply hasn't been up to scratch bar one amazing Suarez-inspired campaign.

    Also, we've got a really good manager who fits the club, and the last few transfer windows have shown a massive improvement on the hideous mess that largely preceded them. Feels like we're finally headed in the right direction, but of course we've been there before...
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