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Thread: Bridging the gap - we have a long way to go

  1. #1 Default Bridging the gap - we have a long way to go 
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    Sunday is a big day for the club. Win at all costs is an understatement. Its interesting to read as a relative newcomer to the boards how some think it is a simple fix to take us to the next level by signing 4/5 players. I think we need to understand and accept that at the present time we are a long way from being title winners. Why? You only have to look at the Spurs side. In a combined Liverpool/Spurs 11 we would have 2 players in it no more (Coutinho & Mane).

    Look at what Spurs has been built on. A superb back 5 of Lloris, Alderweild, Vertongen, Walker & Rose that is superb defensively and both full backs can get forward. This is a huge worry when you compare this back 5 with ours. The chasm is absolutely massive. Its arguable we need to replace the whole of our back 5 to get anywhere close to what Spurs have (Matip maybe apart). Clyne & Milner are nowhere near good enough going forward and in Milners case defensively as well. We could maybe get away with Clyne if we had a sensational left back. It is damming how little width we have in our play - mainly due to poor quality of our full backs.

    In midfield Spurs (In Carra's) own words have the best midfield 2 in Wanyama & Dembele. What do we have? We have Can who is a talent no doubt, Hendo who has a worrying debilitating injury and Gini who frankly I haven't known he has been playing in lots of our games.

    We have quality though in Lallana, Mane, Coutinho & Sturridge. Big quality. These 4 in my view really are top drawer. Llalana would miss out in any Spurs/Liv side due to the sensational Ali who has 20 goals!!

    If you look at it in the cold light of day we could need pretty much a new back 5 and 2 new midfielders if we really want to challenge. Klopp has done a sensational job getting us to within the echelons of top 4 absolutely amazing job. He deserves immense credit for that. Lets not forget we have also played the season without a quality centre forward. Studge our main man has been injured, Origi is a work in progress and frustrating & Firmino has stepped in to play the role with varying degrees of success. In some games top drawer but in at least half of the games devoid of quality even though he runs a lot hence many comparing him to Dirk Kuyt. Having no centre forward and a pretty dodgy back 5 and being on verge of top 4 is unreal.

    I think we need to accept that we need at least 2 more windows to become challengers. Even if we sign 5/6 top players its sensible to accept 3/4 of them will not work out.

    We can get there but what is a realistic timescale to bridge this enormous gap?
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  2. #2  
    Larissa Karius is online now First team regular
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    I don't think we are that far off from mounting a genuine challenge.

    We waivered this season when we were missing Coutinho and Mane at the same time and then we had numerous injuries to contend with at the back which meant we couldn't get the same defence out from one game to the next. Plus there was the obvious need to have a bigger squad.

    If we can bring in 4-5 players in this summer for the 16-man matchday squad then we are more than capable of mounting a challenge for the Premier League crown.
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    Points taken. However, do you really believe that with our back 5 leaking so many goals and a midfield that is a little patchy. We could make 4/5 signings just in our back 5 to bring it up to scratch. We have conceded 25 too many goals in each of the last 3/4 seasons that's a huge worry. Cant win the league conceding the amount of goals we do
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larissa Karius View Post
    I don't think we are that far off from mounting a genuine challenge.

    We waivered this season when we were missing Coutinho and Mane at the same time and then we had numerous injuries to contend with at the back which meant we couldn't get the same defence out from one game to the next. Plus there was the obvious need to have a bigger squad.

    If we can bring in 4-5 players in this summer for the 16-man matchday squad then we are more than capable of mounting a challenge for the Premier League crown.
    Points taken. However, do you really believe that with our back 5 leaking so many goals and a midfield that is a little patchy. We could make 4/5 signings just in our back 5 to bring it up to scratch. We have conceded 25 too many goals in each of the last 3/4 seasons that's a huge worry. Cant win the league conceding the amount of goals we do
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggster View Post
    Sunday is a big day for the club. Win at all costs is an understatement. Its interesting to read as a relative newcomer to the boards how some think it is a simple fix to take us to the next level by signing 4/5 players. I think we need to understand and accept that at the present time we are a long way from being title winners. Why? You only have to look at the Spurs side. In a combined Liverpool/Spurs 11 we would have 2 players in it no more (Coutinho & Mane).

    Look at what Spurs has been built on. A superb back 5 of Lloris, Alderweild, Vertongen, Walker & Rose that is superb defensively and both full backs can get forward. This is a huge worry when you compare this back 5 with ours. The chasm is absolutely massive. Its arguable we need to replace the whole of our back 5 to get anywhere close to what Spurs have (Matip maybe apart). Clyne & Milner are nowhere near good enough going forward and in Milners case defensively as well. We could maybe get away with Clyne if we had a sensational left back. It is damming how little width we have in our play - mainly due to poor quality of our full backs.

    In midfield Spurs (In Carra's) own words have the best midfield 2 in Wanyama & Dembele. What do we have? We have Can who is a talent no doubt, Hendo who has a worrying debilitating injury and Gini who frankly I haven't known he has been playing in lots of our games.

    We have quality though in Lallana, Mane, Coutinho & Sturridge. Big quality. These 4 in my view really are top drawer. Llalana would miss out in any Spurs/Liv side due to the sensational Ali who has 20 goals!!

    If you look at it in the cold light of day we could need pretty much a new back 5 and 2 new midfielders if we really want to challenge. Klopp has done a sensational job getting us to within the echelons of top 4 absolutely amazing job. He deserves immense credit for that. Lets not forget we have also played the season without a quality centre forward. Studge our main man has been injured, Origi is a work in progress and frustrating & Firmino has stepped in to play the role with varying degrees of success. In some games top drawer but in at least half of the games devoid of quality even though he runs a lot hence many comparing him to Dirk Kuyt. Having no centre forward and a pretty dodgy back 5 and being on verge of top 4 is unreal.

    I think we need to accept that we need at least 2 more windows to become challengers. Even if we sign 5/6 top players its sensible to accept 3/4 of them will not work out.

    We can get there but what is a realistic timescale to bridge this enormous gap?
    Not mentioning Firmino being top quality is something i need to pull you up on. I'd rather our front 3 over spurs front 3 any day of the week.
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    Larissa Karius is online now First team regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggster View Post
    Points taken. However, do you really believe that with our back 5 leaking so many goals and a midfield that is a little patchy. We could make 4/5 signings just in our back 5 to bring it up to scratch. We have conceded 25 too many goals in each of the last 3/4 seasons that's a huge worry. Cant win the league conceding the amount of goals we do
    If we can bring in the players we are being strongly linked to, then why not. I mean if you look at the team and bench below, then that shows how strong we can be going forward (and then the 16-day matchday squad is still missing players like Ward, Gomez, Milner, Wijnaldum, Grujic and Origi who also can come in).


    Mignolet

    Clyne - Matip - VVD - Robertson

    Keita - Emre - Coutinho

    Mane - Werner - Firmino


    Subs: Karius, Arnold, Sessegnon, Lovren, Henderson, Lallana, Sturridge
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    We've already got more points than Spurs did last season. They made a step up to a genuine title challenge this season by adding one first team player in the summer.

    I still get the feeling one really good defensive signing could save us 10 goals a season from stupid set piece blunders. That could be a huge difference.

    Of course we need to strengthen in other areas too, and deal with playing in Europe, but so do all our rivals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamingOfKlopp View Post
    Not mentioning Firmino being top quality is something i need to pull you up on. I'd rather our front 3 over spurs front 3 any day of the week.
    Wowsers You do realise Son, Kane & Ali have nearly 70 goals between them this season!!??

    As for Firmino, he splits fans for sure which to me shows he isn't top quality. No top player ever split fans. He has no pace either which is a worry. Absolutely key though in a squad going forward. Not good enough though in a title winning team. Not a centre forward and we have a better player in Coutinho in his favoured position.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larissa Karius View Post
    If we can bring in the players we are being strongly linked to, then why not. I mean if you look at the team and bench below, then that shows how strong we can be going forward (and then the 16-day matchday squad is still missing players like Gomez, Wijnaldum, Grujic and Origi who also can come in).


    Mignolet

    Clyne - Matip - VVD - Robertson

    Keita - Emre - Coutinho

    Mane - Werner - Firmino


    Subs: Karius, Arnold, Sessegnon, Lovren, Henderson, Lallana, Sturridge
    Id swap Werner and Firmino around. Otherwise id just buy Brandt over Werner and play him left. Also left back hopefully Mendy rumours are true.
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    We will be at least 13 points better off this season, hopefully 16 points. Massive improvement make no mistake about that.

    A few more players and I think we will challenge next season, maybe even go to the wire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larissa Karius View Post
    If we can bring in the players we are being strongly linked to, then why not. I mean if you look at the team and bench below, then that shows how strong we can be going forward (and then the 16-day matchday squad is still missing players like Ward, Gomez, Milner, Wijnaldum, Grujic and Origi who also can come in).


    Mignolet

    Clyne - Matip - VVD - Robertson

    Keita - Emre - Coutinho

    Mane - Werner - Firmino


    Subs: Karius, Arnold, Sessegnon, Lovren, Henderson, Lallana, Sturridge
    Cant play Firmino wide in that formation he has no pace. Coutinho in a 3 man midfield?? Maybe in a diamond yes but too lightweight in a 3 man mid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamingOfKlopp View Post
    Id swap Werner and Firmino around. Otherwise id just buy Brandt over Werner and play him left. Also left back hopefully Mendy rumours are true.
    You cant have Firmino at centre forward lol. We need a top class striker in that position to even contemplate the league. If Studge is fit he plays over Firmino every day of the week
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggster View Post
    Wowsers You do realise Son, Kane & Ali have nearly 70 goals between them this season!!??

    As for Firmino, he splits fans for sure which to me shows he isn't top quality. No top player ever split fans. He has no pace either which is a worry. Absolutely key though in a squad going forward. Not good enough though in a title winning team. Not a centre forward and we have a better player in Coutinho in his favoured position.
    But you are ignoring the fact when our front 3 play together we are the best scoring side in the league. The issue is they have hardly played together since earlier in the season. Our record with that 3 and Lallana all playing is amazing. Not to mention we would get even more goals from our front 3/4 if we had spurs fullbacks. We pretty much play with no width which limits our attack.

    I've said all along i believe Firmino is better than Kane, and he will prove so when he isn't moved around like this season.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggster View Post
    You cant have Firmino at centre forward lol. We need a top class striker in that position to even contemplate the league. If Studge is fit he plays over Firmino every day of the week
    if i'm honest firmino is a top class player , to play out of position and still get the numbers he's had is pretty impressive, we've had actual strikers here he couldnt hit half of that
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggster View Post
    You cant have Firmino at centre forward lol. We need a top class striker in that position to even contemplate the league. If Studge is fit he plays over Firmino every day of the week
    Firmino has all the ability to be one of the best in the league. We just don't have the team to provide him with proper service. Despite that his record as a 9 is still good. Not having proper width from your fullbacks takes away a major zervice for a striker. Kane would score far less goals if Milner and Clyne were his fullbacks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyMc9 View Post
    if i'm honest firmino is a top class player , to play out of position and still get the numbers he's had is pretty impressive, we've had actual strikers here he couldnt hit half of that
    Imagine if we move coutinho to cm and add another Mane type to the left attack and a proper left back to the side. Firmino would score 20 a season easily imo. His finishing is very underrated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamingOfKlopp View Post
    But you are ignoring the fact when our front 3 play together we are the best scoring side in the league. The issue is they have hardly played together since earlier in the season. Our record with that 3 and Lallana all playing is amazing. Not to mention we would get even more goals from our front 3/4 if we had spurs fullbacks. We pretty much play with no width which limits our attack.

    I've said all along i believe Firmino is better than Kane, and he will prove so when he isn't moved around like this season.
    Hey, at the end of the day forums like this are all about people airing opinions and I respect all opinions.

    Comparing Firmino to Kane in my opinion is crazy. Kane has been there bought the T Shirt scoring 20 goals 3 seasons in a row. Firmino is a long long way away from that. He hasn't showed anything like the quality Kane has got. Kane is a physical specimen who can finish for fun. Firmino is a worker who couldn't hold a torch to Kane's finishing ability. Not sure what you have seen from Firmino to make that wild claim. He has scored a few goals but so did Kuyt. #Confused.Com
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyMc9 View Post
    if i'm honest firmino is a top class player , to play out of position and still get the numbers he's had is pretty impressive, we've had actual strikers here he couldnt hit half of that
    Yes I agree he has done well out of position but he isn't a centre forward. We need a proper top class one there if we want to progress
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamingOfKlopp View Post
    Imagine if we move coutinho to cm and add another Mane type to the left attack and a proper left back to the side. Firmino would score 20 a season easily imo. His finishing is very underrated.
    I would get 10 in that set up. Imagine if we get a proper top class striker? Would get 30/35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggster View Post
    I would get 10 in that set up. Imagine if we get a proper top class striker? Would get 30/35
    i doubt you would
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggster View Post
    Yes I agree he has done well out of position but he isn't a centre forward. We need a proper top class one there if we want to progress
    i agree he should not be first choice at CF but he's a very good player
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyMc9 View Post
    i doubt you would
    I am sharp mind
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggster View Post
    Sunday is a big day for the club. Win at all costs is an understatement. Its interesting to read as a relative newcomer to the boards how some think it is a simple fix to take us to the next level by signing 4/5 players. I think we need to understand and accept that at the present time we are a long way from being title winners. Why? You only have to look at the Spurs side. In a combined Liverpool/Spurs 11 we would have 2 players in it no more (Coutinho & Mane).

    Look at what Spurs has been built on. A superb back 5 of Lloris, Alderweild, Vertongen, Walker & Rose that is superb defensively and both full backs can get forward. This is a huge worry when you compare this back 5 with ours. The chasm is absolutely massive. Its arguable we need to replace the whole of our back 5 to get anywhere close to what Spurs have (Matip maybe apart). Clyne & Milner are nowhere near good enough going forward and in Milners case defensively as well. We could maybe get away with Clyne if we had a sensational left back. It is damming how little width we have in our play - mainly due to poor quality of our full backs.

    In midfield Spurs (In Carra's) own words have the best midfield 2 in Wanyama & Dembele. What do we have? We have Can who is a talent no doubt, Hendo who has a worrying debilitating injury and Gini who frankly I haven't known he has been playing in lots of our games.

    We have quality though in Lallana, Mane, Coutinho & Sturridge. Big quality. These 4 in my view really are top drawer. Llalana would miss out in any Spurs/Liv side due to the sensational Ali who has 20 goals!!

    If you look at it in the cold light of day we could need pretty much a new back 5 and 2 new midfielders if we really want to challenge. Klopp has done a sensational job getting us to within the echelons of top 4 absolutely amazing job. He deserves immense credit for that. Lets not forget we have also played the season without a quality centre forward. Studge our main man has been injured, Origi is a work in progress and frustrating & Firmino has stepped in to play the role with varying degrees of success. In some games top drawer but in at least half of the games devoid of quality even though he runs a lot hence many comparing him to Dirk Kuyt. Having no centre forward and a pretty dodgy back 5 and being on verge of top 4 is unreal.

    I think we need to accept that we need at least 2 more windows to become challengers. Even if we sign 5/6 top players its sensible to accept 3/4 of them will not work out.

    We can get there but what is a realistic timescale to bridge this enormous gap?
    Good post and interesting comparison with Spurs. Despite not having lost to them for at least 4 years they are our benchmark as they dispatch other teams we cant.

    In terms of what we need Ive said for a long time we need at least 3 MFs (one a Alonso, one a Mascherano and one a fast left sided MF). On top of that we require a GK, a LB, a CB and a striker (maybe 2). It will be next summer before we are title challengers. We need a cup win and a good run in the CL this next season.
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  24. #24  
    lonewolf kal is online now Boot Room insider
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larissa Karius View Post
    I don't think we are that far off from mounting a genuine challenge.

    We waivered this season when we were missing Coutinho and Mane at the same time and then we had numerous injuries to contend with at the back which meant we couldn't get the same defence out from one game to the next. Plus there was the obvious need to have a bigger squad.

    If we can bring in 4-5 players in this summer for the 16-man matchday squad then we are more than capable of mounting a challenge for the Premier League crown.
    pretty much ^^^^ currently we have a thin squad, which we already knew and ofc that will be somewhat rectified this summer.

    way too many get blinded by what spuds have done (being a bridesmaid) and always seem to see them as sort of supreme team to the detriment of ourselves. ponchetino the potato messiah has had a good few years forming that team so not surprising they are a tad ahead of us currently, but not far enough for us to give in. we are a far better team (when all players are fit) then we would like to admit and are only going to get better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wavdeep View Post
    We've already got more points than Spurs did last season. They made a step up to a genuine title challenge this season by adding one first team player in the summer.

    I still get the feeling one really good defensive signing could save us 10 goals a season from stupid set piece blunders. That could be a huge difference.

    Of course we need to strengthen in other areas too, and deal with playing in Europe, but so do all our rivals.
    And thats the mistake everyone is making. We thought Lovren was the answer, before him Sakho. Now its Matip. Your defence is only good as those in front of it. Its no surprise to me that the best defences are those with good DMFs in front of them -Chelsea/Spurs/Utd -we have nothing like those teams have. Will it be the 7th transfer window in a row we fail to address this?

    Not saying a CB or 2 wouldnt be a good idea but its how theyre played and what theyre coached to do plus that missing defensive shield in front of them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggster View Post
    Sunday is a big day for the club. Win at all costs is an understatement. Its interesting to read as a relative newcomer to the boards how some think it is a simple fix to take us to the next level by signing 4/5 players. I think we need to understand and accept that at the present time we are a long way from being title winners. Why? You only have to look at the Spurs side. In a combined Liverpool/Spurs 11 we would have 2 players in it no more (Coutinho & Mane).

    Look at what Spurs has been built on. A superb back 5 of Lloris, Alderweild, Vertongen, Walker & Rose that is superb defensively and both full backs can get forward. This is a huge worry when you compare this back 5 with ours. The chasm is absolutely massive. Its arguable we need to replace the whole of our back 5 to get anywhere close to what Spurs have (Matip maybe apart). Clyne & Milner are nowhere near good enough going forward and in Milners case defensively as well. We could maybe get away with Clyne if we had a sensational left back. It is damming how little width we have in our play - mainly due to poor quality of our full backs.

    In midfield Spurs (In Carra's) own words have the best midfield 2 in Wanyama & Dembele. What do we have? We have Can who is a talent no doubt, Hendo who has a worrying debilitating injury and Gini who frankly I haven't known he has been playing in lots of our games.

    We have quality though in Lallana, Mane, Coutinho & Sturridge. Big quality. These 4 in my view really are top drawer. Llalana would miss out in any Spurs/Liv side due to the sensational Ali who has 20 goals!!

    If you look at it in the cold light of day we could need pretty much a new back 5 and 2 new midfielders if we really want to challenge. Klopp has done a sensational job getting us to within the echelons of top 4 absolutely amazing job. He deserves immense credit for that. Lets not forget we have also played the season without a quality centre forward. Studge our main man has been injured, Origi is a work in progress and frustrating & Firmino has stepped in to play the role with varying degrees of success. In some games top drawer but in at least half of the games devoid of quality even though he runs a lot hence many comparing him to Dirk Kuyt. Having no centre forward and a pretty dodgy back 5 and being on verge of top 4 is unreal.

    I think we need to accept that we need at least 2 more windows to become challengers. Even if we sign 5/6 top players its sensible to accept 3/4 of them will not work out.

    We can get there but what is a realistic timescale to bridge this enormous gap?
    1st, Spurs haven't won ANYTHING.

    2nd, All this building slowly stuff is doing my head.

    Most all of human achievement in any field has been done by determination to succeed NOW. Not next month, next year or after.

    If Klopp isn't making plans to win the Pl NEXT season, and assuming we make the CL winning that NEXT season also, he is the wrong man for the job. But I can assure you, he is making those plans because that's what winners do.

    No more build slowly over time crap. It doesn't work, has never worked (as a long term strategy), and wont work for us.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggster View Post
    Hey, at the end of the day forums like this are all about people airing opinions and I respect all opinions.

    Comparing Firmino to Kane in my opinion is crazy. Kane has been there bought the T Shirt scoring 20 goals 3 seasons in a row. Firmino is a long long way away from that. He hasn't showed anything like the quality Kane has got. Kane is a physical specimen who can finish for fun. Firmino is a worker who couldn't hold a torch to Kane's finishing ability. Not sure what you have seen from Firmino to make that wild claim. He has scored a few goals but so did Kuyt. #Confused.Com
    But differing opinions is why we are on the forum to begin with mate. Kane has also been played as a 9 and a 9 only. I bet every other top striker int eh league would also struggle if everytime there was an injury they found themselves wide and out of position in and already disjointed side.

    The top strikers have a much better set up around them and they don't suffer from versatility like Firmino does. By no means is Firmino a lesser talent and some of his striker play is as good as it gets. But like all things only time will tell. Ive watched firmino since 13/14 and i mentioned back then i prefer him as a 9 and Klopp seems to see it too with his comments last season about Firmino being a striker that sometimes plays midfield not a midfielder that sometimes plays striker.

    That run sturridge made on the weekend is something firmino makes every game, problem has been for a while we never have a player like Coutinho in the midfield who can find that pass.

    Firmino is not just a worker and the kuyt examples are lazy ones mate. He is not a just a worker he is a top player who also works his socks off. Playing in a much lesser side than he could be.
    Last edited by DreamingOfKlopp; 19-5-17 at 15:39.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoffeeShop View Post
    1st, Spurs haven't won ANYTHING.

    2nd, All this building slowly stuff is doing my head.

    Most all of human achievement in any field has been done by determination to succeed NOW. Not next month, next year or after.

    If Klopp isn't making plans to win the Pl NEXT season, and assuming we make the CL winning that NEXT season also, he is the wrong man for the job. But I can assure you, he is making those plans because that's what winners do.

    No more build slowly over time crap. It doesn't work, has never worked (as a long term strategy), and wont work for us.
    Klopp would be wanting to be in CL to win it, make no doubt about that. Same with the prem, you could tell even this season with such a poor squad losing pace for the title ********** him off.
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  30. #30  
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamingOfKlopp View Post
    But differing opinions is why we are on the forum to begin with mate. Kane has also been played as a 9 and a 9 only. I bet every other top striker int eh league would also struggle if everytime there was an injury they found themselves wide and out of position in and already disjointed side.

    The top strikers have a much better set up around them and they don't suffer from versatility like Firmino does. By no means is Firmino a lesser talent and some of his striker play is as good as it gets. But like all things only time will tell. Ive watched firmino since 13/14 and i mentioned back then i prefer him as a 9 and Klopp seems to see it too with his comments last season about Firmino being a striker that sometimes plays midfield not a midfielder that sometimes plays striker.

    That run sturridge made on the weekend is something firmino makes every game, problem has been for a while we never have a player like Coutinho in the midfield who can find that pass.

    Firmino is not just a worker and the kuyt examples are lazy ones mate. He is not a just a worker he is a top player who also works his socks off. Playing in a much lesser side than he could be.
    You mentioned something there. You said Firmino is a talent. Kane isn't a talent he is the real deal. A proven goalscorer. Firmino has only proven that he is inconsistent and frustrating has hell to watch. This is an issue for me and always has been at LFC, players being put on a pedestal before they have actually proven themselves. Always the same, a lad has 10-15 good games over the cost of a 45 game season and we go overboard. He has a long way to go you have to accept that. I wont be too harsh as in my opinion he isn't a striker, mainly due to the fact that he is quite slow and that is a big issue for a number 9 who isn't a physical presence.
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