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Thread: Jurgen Klopp - Episode III

  1. #1 Default Jurgen Klopp - Episode III 
    MacFoley'1975 is online now First team regular
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    So we are coming up to JK's second year at LFC. Big season ahead for all.

    Big games in the CL coming up and a battle to compete with the top 4. Getting knocked out of the CC was a let down for sure, but the performance in the 2nd half was nothing like heavy metal football.

    So here is a new thread to discuss our manager....
    Last edited by GrottonRed; 21-9-17 at 16:15.
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    From the other thread...

    Trophies in the cabinet is how our owners should be judged not just balancing the books
    1) If the owners don't balance the books the trophies and cabinet will go on auction when the club goes into receivership
    2) The owners aren't the ones recruiting players, coaching them, selecting line-ups, etc. which has a much bigger impact on winning those trophies
    3) The coach can only do so much, when the players go out and have brain farts, bottle sitters, get themselves sent off, etc. that's almost entirely on them
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    lfcstlouis is offline Caution advised, may not be actual saint
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacFoley'1975 View Post
    So we are coming up to JK's second year at LFC. Big season ahead for all.

    Big games in the CL coming up and a battle to compete with the top 4. Getting knocked out of the CC was a let down for sure, but the performance in the 2nd half was nothing like heavy metal football.

    So here is a new thread to discuss our manager....
    Depends who you ask.

    I don't think we've seen 'heavy metal football' once this year. Even against Arsenal, we weren't pressing all over the place and high tempo. It was a lot of counter attacking and Arsenal just plain sucking that day.

    I'm not sure if Klopp is trying to adjust too many things to the PL in too clever a way, or if the players aren't responding to his ideas/philosophy. I see him on the touch line frustrated and annoyed most of the time.

    Not sure what's exactly going on, but I hope it changes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lfcstlouis View Post
    Depends who you ask.

    I don't think we've seen 'heavy metal football' once this year. Even against Arsenal, we weren't pressing all over the place and high tempo. It was a lot of counter attacking and Arsenal just plain sucking that day.

    I'm not sure if Klopp is trying to adjust too many things to the PL in too clever a way, or if the players aren't responding to his ideas/philosophy. I see him on the touch line frustrated and annoyed most of the time.

    Not sure what's exactly going on, but I hope it changes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lfcstlouis View Post
    Depends who you ask.

    I don't think we've seen 'heavy metal football' once this year. Even against Arsenal, we weren't pressing all over the place and high tempo. It was a lot of counter attacking and Arsenal just plain sucking that day.

    I'm not sure if Klopp is trying to adjust too many things to the PL in too clever a way, or if the players aren't responding to his ideas/philosophy. I see him on the touch line frustrated and annoyed most of the time.

    Not sure what's exactly going on, but I hope it changes.
    This! I've been asking how come our pressing has been nonexistent this season.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgRED View Post
    This! I've been asking how come our pressing has been nonexistent this season.
    I answered this early on but never got chance to reply, I think the main reason is the toll it takes on the players that you will pay for later on with injuries and tiredness, for sure like you say we have bulked up the squad but not to an extent where the majority of first 11 players can be replaced, the bulking will allow players to rest during domestic cup games but the main core will still play CL and PL matches, and of course as said losing Lallana our number 1 presser hasn't helped.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lfcstlouis View Post
    Depends who you ask.

    I don't think we've seen 'heavy metal football' once this year. Even against Arsenal, we weren't pressing all over the place and high tempo. It was a lot of counter attacking and Arsenal just plain sucking that day.

    I'm not sure if Klopp is trying to adjust too many things to the PL in too clever a way, or if the players aren't responding to his ideas/philosophy. I see him on the touch line frustrated and annoyed most of the time.

    Not sure what's exactly going on, but I hope it changes.
    It's simple what is going on, we are still not defending properly and we are not converting enough of the multitudes of chances created.
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    Quote Originally Posted by davevietnam View Post
    I answered this early on but never got chance to reply, I think the main reason is the toll it takes on the players that you will pay for later on with injuries and tiredness, for sure like you say we have bulked up the squad but not to an extent where the majority of first 11 players can be replaced, the bulking will allow players to rest during domestic cup games but the main core will still play CL and PL matches, and of course as said losing Lallana our number 1 presser hasn't helped.
    I do understand what you are trying to say. However, you also need to know that without the pressing, we are as good as letting opponents having a 2 goal cushion given how Hendo and our CBs are so good at finding grasshoppers.

    And yes. I agree on Lallana is the so-called starter for the pressing. So do Bobby and to a certain extent, Mane, last season too.

    Is either back to the pressing or abandon the high line defending and/or our gk willing to come out for crosses. We will be the Santa Claus giving away free goals to oppositions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgRED View Post
    I do understand what you are trying to say. However, you also need to know that without the pressing, we are as good as letting opponents having a 2 goal cushion given how Hendo and our CBs are so good at finding grasshoppers.

    And yes. I agree on Lallana is the so-called starter for the pressing. So do Bobby and to a certain extent, Mane, last season too.

    Is either back to the pressing or abandon the high line defending and/or our gk willing to come out for crosses. We will be the Santa Claus giving away free goals to oppositions.
    For sure the result of us not pressing has consequences in our play but that's not what you asked or wondered, it was why we weren't pressing. As for comments about grasshoppers no idea or even care.
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    Quote Originally Posted by davevietnam View Post
    For sure the result of us not pressing has consequences in our play but that's not what you asked or wondered, it was why we weren't pressing. As for comments about grasshoppers no idea or even care.
    We don't press now due to last season Jan/Feb experience?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgRED View Post
    This! I've been asking how come our pressing has been nonexistent this season.
    I think we have - we pressed the goonies (yes they played like dead men but still) and haven't played teams where we've had to (Palace/Burnley/Leicester were happy to let us have the ball)
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgRED View Post
    We don't press now due to last season Jan/Feb experience?
    I think it may be yes, I mean if you think back there was a lot of talk even when we where up top in November that we would pay, I remember Sunday supplement them being on about it Klopp not used to the PL etc and the injuries did start to pile up later.

    You mentioned earlier about bulking up but I thought when we brought in Salah and had Mane also that with them on the wings our FB's could concentrate more on defending, but with Moreno being re-introduced it seem the opposite.
    Last edited by davevietnam; 21-9-17 at 17:53.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WinterPoolStark View Post
    I think we have - we pressed the goonies (yes they played like dead men but still) and haven't played teams where we've had to (Palace/Burnley/Leicester were happy to let us have the ball)
    I remember we did press those teams' defenders and midfielders like the 3 you mentioned last season and to great effect.

    This season, however, is a total different story whereby their CM and attackers are having a free run in our midfield.

    And also, even with no pressing, our 2nd half performance this season has been shocking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by davevietnam View Post
    I think it may be yes, I mean if you think back there was a lot of talk even when we where up top in November that we would pay, I remember Sunday supplement them being on about it Klopp not used to the PL etc and the injuries did start to pile up later.

    You mentioned earlier about bulking up but I thought when we brought in Salah and had Mane also that with them on the wings our FB's could concentrate more on defending, but with Moreno being re-introduced it seem the opposite.
    I can understand that if we don't press for full 90min or even 60min/1st half due to that concern. But to so-called downgrade to no press at all seems so weird.

    And due to that, our performances and results (bar arsenal game which all of them are still on holiday mood) suffered badly.

    Regarding about Moreno, I think he's the lesser problem compare to Hendo, Lovren (all of our CB) and Migs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgRED View Post
    I can understand that if we don't press for full 90min or even 60min/1st half due to that concern. But to so-called downgrade to no press at all seems so weird.

    And due to that, our performances and results (bar arsenal game which all of them are still on holiday mood) suffered badly.

    Regarding about Moreno, I think he's the lesser problem compare to Hendo, Lovren (all of our CB) and Migs.
    When I say Moreno and his play is a big part of our problems I lay no blame on the player, I 100% lay that at Klopps door, its he who instructs and allows the LB this what seems pretty much a free roll, and I think any defense would suffer with it and certainly Hendo and Lovren are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by davevietnam View Post
    When I say Moreno and his play is a big part of our problems I lay no blame on the player, I 100% lay that at Klopps door, its he who instructs and allows the LB this what seems pretty much a free roll, and I think any defense would suffer with it and certainly Hendo and Lovren are.
    Klopp's team FBs are always on the offensive whenever they can. It is the DM or no 6 job to see and sniff out the potential dangerous play coming at us.

    Hendo did not even do that. All he try to do is to crab-walking and once their players go past him, he just either jog back and point around aimlessly.

    I will not be complaining so much about him if he try to close down 1 of the passing lanes or another player.

    People talk about the silly fouls Lucas gave away. But if you look carefully, most of them are tactical ones which allowed our defence and midfield to regroup.

    As for Lovren who is playing alongside Moreno, I've already noticed that more often than not Can is playing as the 3rd CB when he goes MIA. That's on top of his usual fatal brain fart moments.

    That itself creates a big gap on our left side which Hendo being in the middle of the 3 midfield should move to cover and Gini will follow suit. But that did not happen even once.

    And if Can did not play as the 3rd CB, Moreno will be overloaded/ crowded by the attackers which Lovren supposed to help him out. So is a lose-lose situation whoever left FB we have there.

    Also, our style of high line defending needs a GK who is readying to rush out to clear any danger and come out of his line to punch/ catch the crosses. Migs is none of that.

    It becomes like "should we or should we not" push up for our defensive line. Klopp mentioned this recently in his post match comments and I was surprised that he did not mention about Migs part of this problem.

    These are some of the glaring weaknesses I've noticed and that's the reason why I think Moreno is the lesser problem to these 3.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lfcstlouis View Post
    Depends who you ask.

    I don't think we've seen 'heavy metal football' once this year. Even against Arsenal, we weren't pressing all over the place and high tempo. It was a lot of counter attacking and Arsenal just plain sucking that day.

    I'm not sure if Klopp is trying to adjust too many things to the PL in too clever a way, or if the players aren't responding to his ideas/philosophy. I see him on the touch line frustrated and annoyed most of the time.

    Not sure what's exactly going on, but I hope it changes.
    No. Kloppy isn’t trying to change things ‘in too clever of a way’. Far far from it.
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    Whilst I am a Klopp fan the decision on that is more and more related to his personality than his seeming capacity as a manager.

    I think its understandable and right that fans are questioning his decisions. I dont see a lot of argument supporting some of the calls he has made this season and in the transfer window.

    I have read on here its a very big year for Klopp. I agree. You have to think that if he falls early from the cups and finishes outside Champs League places then his future at Liverpool will be in doubt. Either from being sacked or walking away. I dont think thats an unrealistic scenario.

    We have been consistently poor in defence since before Klopp arrived but he has improved nothing in that respect.

    Whilst it pains me to repeat them 'Attack wins you games, defence wins you titles.'
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    Klopp knows now that some players are simply not capable of doing what he's asking of them. I think one of the reasons the team will play differently, because some of the players don't have skills and the mental capacity to be switched on in dangerous situations.
    But I like what he's building here. It just takes time to get the squad, it ain't happening in one or two TF windows. We won't be seeing "the team" till next season. Long wait for some, but right now I don't want Klopp gone.
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    By the way some of you lot are going on you would have thought that we are nearing the end of the season having lost everything and there was no hope in sight.....

    I cannot deny that our defending is still poor, nor can I give Klopp a free pass, he has to take the criticism no matter how backwards some of it is. but I think some of the stuff that has been banded about this forum, rubbish like saying Klopp is complacent and lacks understanding is laughable.

    If Klopp actually thought that our defence is ok then why has he bought in defenders in both summer windows ? why did he spend all of this summer chasing VDV ?

    He obviously knows that we have serious issues and seeing as he could not get the player he wanted, he is trying to sort it out without replacing the players, yes replacing the players we deem not good enough is one solution, but there are also others, it is not always down to the player being not good enough and needing to be replaced, it seems that people have forgotten that their are other ways to improve the team and instead prefer to play fantasy football.

    Granted things dont look best at the moment but I have faith that he can sort it out, its not going to be an easy ride for sure, especially as we have shown that we cant or wont just go out and buy players left right and centre, its just going to be a good few long drawn out seasons under FSG and Klopp while he slowly tries to sort us out, most of us knew this when he took over and it seems that plenty of people expected quicker changes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrDilkington View Post
    By the way some of you lot are going on you would have thought that we are nearing the end of the season having lost everything and there was no hope in sight.....

    I cannot deny that our defending is still poor, nor can I give Klopp a free pass, he has to take the criticism no matter how backwards some of it is. but I think some of the stuff that has been banded about this forum, rubbish like saying Klopp is complacent and lacks understanding is laughable.

    If Klopp actually thought that our defence is ok then why has he bought in defenders in both summer windows ? why did he spend all of this summer chasing VDV ?

    He obviously knows that we have serious issues and seeing as he could not get the player he wanted, he is trying to sort it out without replacing the players, yes replacing the players we deem not good enough is one solution, but there are also others, it is not always down to the player being not good enough and needing to be replaced, it seems that people have forgotten that their are other ways to improve the team and instead prefer to play fantasy football.

    Granted things dont look best at the moment but I have faith that he can sort it out, its not going to be an easy ride for sure, especially as we have shown that we cant or wont just go out and buy players left right and centre, its just going to be a good few long drawn out seasons under FSG and Klopp while he slowly tries to sort us out, most of us knew this when he took over and it seems that plenty of people expected quicker changes.
    Klopp just said pretty much exactly this. I think half our fans actually thrive off, and in some perverse way enjoy, this overreaction and melodrama tbh. Sure the last 4 games haven't been great (to put it mildly) but looking at the bigger picture we're still in a strong position to qualify from our CL group, 2 points behind Chelsea, level on points with Spurs and above Arsenal in the league, and out of the least important cup which may actually help us slightly. The way people are going on you'd think our season was already over.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrDilkington View Post
    By the way some of you lot are going on you would have thought that we are nearing the end of the season having lost everything and there was no hope in sight.....

    I cannot deny that our defending is still poor, nor can I give Klopp a free pass, he has to take the criticism no matter how backwards some of it is. but I think some of the stuff that has been banded about this forum, rubbish like saying Klopp is complacent and lacks understanding is laughable.

    If Klopp actually thought that our defence is ok then why has he bought in defenders in both summer windows ? why did he spend all of this summer chasing VDV ?

    He obviously knows that we have serious issues and seeing as he could not get the player he wanted, he is trying to sort it out without replacing the players, yes replacing the players we deem not good enough is one solution, but there are also others, it is not always down to the player being not good enough and needing to be replaced, it seems that people have forgotten that their are other ways to improve the team and instead prefer to play fantasy football.

    Granted things dont look best at the moment but I have faith that he can sort it out, its not going to be an easy ride for sure, especially as we have shown that we cant or wont just go out and buy players left right and centre, its just going to be a good few long drawn out seasons under FSG and Klopp while he slowly tries to sort us out, most of us knew this when he took over and it seems that plenty of people expected quicker changes.
    The defense is hopeless, one of the worst in the league, its actually become really embarrassing, his failure to address it in 2 years isn't a sign of complacency?

    The Van Dijk transfer was dead for a good while with plenty of time to spare and he did nothing, well he bought Chamberlain for 35-40 million, that didn't quite solve it though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by steviewonder87 View Post
    Klopp just said pretty much exactly this. I think half our fans actually thrive off, and in some perverse way enjoy, this overreaction and melodrama tbh. Sure the last 4 games haven't been great (to put it mildly) but looking at the bigger picture we're still in a strong position to qualify from our CL group, 2 points behind Chelsea, level on points with Spurs and above Arsenal in the league, and out of the least important cup which may actually help us slightly. The way people are going on you'd think our season was already over.
    Agreed. And the media seem to have stirred it a lot, so much so some of our fans are almost obsessed with the fact that we didn't sign VVD (or Keita this window) and using it as some kind of media generated stick to beat Klopp with any time he does anything might be called wrong.

    A lot of our recent issues stemmed from Mane's red card, then again didn't they also last season when he went off to ACN? (fortunately Klopp can't be blamed for that or some might, although some will always point to lack of cover)


    Man City - thrashed by one of the best sides in this league away, the scoreline was bad, the performance wasn't great, but once Mane was sent off then the team went to bits.

    Sevilla - could have won, should have won perhaps, but they are the best team in the group unless we're going to contradict ourselves by suggesting we are....


    Bumley - should have won, didn't have Mane and so lots of shots, conceded (as usual) from one of their few shots and couldn't win.

    Leicester - were the better side first half, Ox aside, and couldn't put chances away. Beggars belief that the defence gets so much grief whilst the attackers squander chance after chance


    Any coincidence our worst results (Man City, Bumley and Leicester) were without Mane, and Klopp can hardly be blamed for his sending off. Some could argue we lack a strong attack without Mane, but then why keep banging on about VVD and the defence then...........?!?



    How about the shot count :

    Leicester 8-21 Liverpool
    Liverpool 35-5 Bumley
    Liverpool 24-7 Sevilla
    Man City 13-7 Liverpool

    Sure we've conceded 10 goals from just 33 shots against, but far more worrying is we've had EIGHTY-SEVEN shots in those four games at an average of TWENTY TWO a gam and scored just THREE goals - one goal for every TWENTY NINE shots............ (compared to one goal every three shots against) Neither stat is particularly great for us, but I'd hope to score at least twice as many goals from that many shots as we did... Even one every eight or nine shots would set us on parity
    People will believe what they want to believe
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrDilkington View Post
    By the way some of you lot are going on you would have thought that we are nearing the end of the season having lost everything and there was no hope in sight.....

    I cannot deny that our defending is still poor, nor can I give Klopp a free pass, he has to take the criticism no matter how backwards some of it is. but I think some of the stuff that has been banded about this forum, rubbish like saying Klopp is complacent and lacks understanding is laughable.

    If Klopp actually thought that our defence is ok then why has he bought in defenders in both summer windows ? why did he spend all of this summer chasing VDV ?

    He obviously knows that we have serious issues and seeing as he could not get the player he wanted, he is trying to sort it out without replacing the players, yes replacing the players we deem not good enough is one solution, but there are also others, it is not always down to the player being not good enough and needing to be replaced, it seems that people have forgotten that their are other ways to improve the team and instead prefer to play fantasy football.

    Granted things dont look best at the moment but I have faith that he can sort it out, its not going to be an easy ride for sure, especially as we have shown that we cant or wont just go out and buy players left right and centre, its just going to be a good few long drawn out seasons under FSG and Klopp while he slowly tries to sort us out, most of us knew this when he took over and it seems that plenty of people expected quicker changes.
    could not have put it better thank God some fans can keep thier head on. instead of all the sky is falling doom and gloom.chealsea and conte didn't have a good start last season but he readdressed issues and the finished tops.its along long season things can change in a dime with a few wins.
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    Maybe if Klopp had spent all summer watching DVDs (of our defending) instead of chasing VVDs then we might have worked on what we have instead of dreaming of what we haven't..............
    People will believe what they want to believe
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    Quote Originally Posted by steviewonder87 View Post
    Klopp just said pretty much exactly this. I think half our fans actually thrive off, and in some perverse way enjoy, this overreaction and melodrama tbh. Sure the last 4 games haven't been great (to put it mildly) but looking at the bigger picture we're still in a strong position to qualify from our CL group, 2 points behind Chelsea, level on points with Spurs and above Arsenal in the league, and out of the least important cup which may actually help us slightly. The way people are going on you'd think our season was already over.
    I am not happy that we went out of the cup so easily, but you are right, it is not the number one priority right now and less games might do us some favours.
    We can all see that we have problems and just because a lot of people agree on the solution, it does not mean it is the solution we need.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shriekback View Post
    The defense is hopeless, one of the worst in the league, its actually become really embarrassing, his failure to address it in 2 years isn't a sign of complacency?
    No I do not think it is complacency, I do not think he is happy with the situation, if he was pleased with our defence we would not have gone after VD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shriekback View Post
    The Van Dijk transfer was dead for a good while with plenty of time to spare and he did nothing, well he bought Chamberlain for 35-40 million, that didn't quite solve it though.
    I agree that our defence is lacking, I reckon he thinks coaching the defenders we have, would be better than signing more defenders if we cannot get the ones that he wants, im not saying its the right way to go about it, but there is not just one way to skin a cat. Buying new players is not the only way to change how your team works, if that was the case then a manager would be pretty defunct.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrDilkington View Post
    I am not happy that we went out of the cup so easily, but you are right, it is not the number one priority right now and less games might do us some favours.
    We can all see that we have problems and just because a lot of people agree on the solution, it does not mean it is the solution we need.



    No I do not think it is complacency, I do not think he is happy with the situation, if he was pleased with our defence we would not have gone after VD.



    I agree that our defence is lacking, I reckon he thinks coaching the defenders we have, would be better than signing more defenders if we cannot get the ones that he wants, im not saying its the right way to go about it, but there is not just one way to skin a cat. Buying new players is not the only way to change how your team works, if that was the case then a manager would be pretty defunct.
    Klopp should have gone for a player like Howedes, even on loan and then signed VVD in January. By then - Van Dijk-Howedes-Matip, that's the quality we are looking for, calm intelligent centre backs, Klavan is out of the depth poor guy and Lovren makes silly mistakes.

    What was wrong with the idea of bringing in 2, I reckon with a good effort looking into our scouting system there would have been somebody.

    Would we have been better off now with Howedes?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrDilkington View Post
    I agree that our defence is lacking, I reckon he thinks coaching the defenders we have, would be better than signing more defenders if we cannot get the ones that he wants, im not saying its the right way to go about it, but there is not just one way to skin a cat. Buying new players is not the only way to change how your team works, if that was the case then a manager would be pretty defunct.
    You are absolutely right but that in itself raises a huge concern – because Lovren and others have been coached under Klopp for 2 years now and we are still an absolute circus at the back.

    How long until you decide the player isn't going to improve, or that the manager's coaching isn't working? Surely 2 years of coaching, day after day, is enough? Or shall we wait 3, 4, 5 years?

    The fact he was prepared to bring a defender in shows he doesn't have complete faith in Lovren and/or Matip. The biggest problem is quite clearly he made an error (stubbornness?) in giving the transfer committee a target list of one. I doubt we will see that happen again.
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  29. #29  
    lfcstlouis is offline Caution advised, may not be actual saint
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarknessIsCalling View Post
    Maybe if Klopp had spent all summer watching DVDs (of our defending) instead of chasing VVDs then we might have worked on what we have instead of dreaming of what we haven't..............
    Good first draft. A little choppy and long, but you're making progress.
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  30. #30  
    raybarnes is offline Football Discussion Football Poster of the Season 2013-14
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    We have a huge connection with Mr Klopp because he gets us he feels our pain and shares our passion we are together as one.
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