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Thread: Jurgen Klopp - Episode III

  1. #751  
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    Quote Originally Posted by FSG-VanBasten View Post
    So would pep be better for us? Or who would be better than klopp for us?

    Talk straight. Not in politician style riddles.
    Can't give a definitive answer given the many variables. Klopp has his so called way of playing. This squad doesn't have the players to do it all the time. What it would be like if he had them who can say, maybe better.

    Pegi there are no riddles. We don't do things right, that's why we struggle. We also overate the ability of managers to work within a certain kind of framework.

    To answer your other post, all managers want and need money for their players and teams. Bob had it, and Kenny almost demanded it, like Cryuff, Beckenbauer, Pep, Heynkes
    Maureen, Carlo, all the top guys want it. They are like architects and builders in most cases.

    This is not rocket science. No great manager of the past would work at the club if the vision was to win the league and CL under FSG. Be that Shanks, Sir Matt, Bob, Clough, unless the internal situation changed. Meanwhile Stevie is watching on the side and he can't be pleased either.

    I will put something out in a separate post now.
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    Inspirational players and managers provide a meaningful CHALLENGE for an ORGANIZATION (club) and its players that is both important and stretching and that becomes the FOCUS of the organizations ACTIONS that are undertaken to LIVE THE DREAM, and in doing so a purpose to the organization is established that must be nurtured for the future through careful recruitment and development of individuals that make up the organization, together with a long term commitment to an EFFECTIVE INFRASTRUCTURE that allows the dream to be SHARED, which builds an aura of association and sense of BELONGING and a feeling of FAMILY based on trusting relationships, leading the participants to a new sense of HARMONY with self and others, and allowing a passionate commitment to the PURPOSE OF THE ORGANIZATION that establishes an environment with the potency of peak flow or OPTIMAL ORGANIZATIONAL EXPERIENCES, leading to catching the LAST DETAIL and IMAGINING GAME BREAKING IDEAS that enable the CONTINUOUS EXCEEDING OF ORGANIZATIONAL BEST in the endless pursuit of the ORGANIZATIONS SHARED PURPOSE, and ultimately to sustaining peak performance.

    This is what all the great clubs try to do and are trying to do. We have spent 26 years undoing what we started with Shanks and ended when Kenny left.
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfoot View Post
    Can't give a definitive answer given the many variables. Klopp has his so called way of playing. This squad doesn't have the players to do it all the time. What it would be like if he had them who can say, maybe better.

    Pegi there are no riddles. We don't do things right, that's why we struggle. We also overate the ability of managers to work within a certain kind of framework.

    To answer your other post, all managers want and need money for their players and teams. Bob had it, and Kenny almost demanded it, like Cryuff, Beckenbauer, Pep, Heynkes
    Maureen, Carlo, all the top guys want it. They are like architects and builders in most cases.

    This is not rocket science. No great manager of the past would work at the club if the vision was to win the league and CL under FSG. Be that Shanks, Sir Matt, Bob, Clough, unless the internal situation changed. Meanwhile Stevie is watching on the side and he can't be pleased either.

    I will put something out in a separate post now.
    That's just it, there is NO definitive answer so clearly you can't say that fsg are doing it wrong then!

    Maybe we are working at 'peak performances' within our means! The way we can increase our peak performance is by spending more and more money. That is not an option for us so we work within our own way of working.
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfoot View Post
    Inspirational players and managers provide a meaningful CHALLENGE for an ORGANIZATION (club) and its players that is both important and stretching and that becomes the FOCUS of the organizations ACTIONS that are undertaken to LIVE THE DREAM, and in doing so a purpose to the organization is established that must be nurtured for the future through careful recruitment and development of individuals that make up the organization, together with a long term commitment to an EFFECTIVE INFRASTRUCTURE that allows the dream to be SHARED, which builds an aura of association and sense of BELONGING and a feeling of FAMILY based on trusting relationships, leading the participants to a new sense of HARMONY with self and others, and allowing a passionate commitment to the PURPOSE OF THE ORGANIZATION that establishes an environment with the potency of peak flow or OPTIMAL ORGANIZATIONAL EXPERIENCES, leading to catching the LAST DETAIL and IMAGINING GAME BREAKING IDEAS that enable the CONTINUOUS EXCEEDING OF ORGANIZATIONAL BEST in the endless pursuit of the ORGANIZATIONS SHARED PURPOSE, and ultimately to sustaining peak performance.

    This is what all the great clubs try to do and are trying to do. We have spent 26 years undoing what we started with Shanks and ended when Kenny left.
    So does this apply to Chelsea, man city, Madrid and psg? Probably the best teams in the world right now?

    I certainly don't think so. A lot of waffle written up there. Why not write how it applies to us. Why are all clubs not at the top not following this principle? Is it because only you and a few others know of it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FSG-VanBasten View Post
    So does this apply to Chelsea, man city, Madrid and psg? Probably the best teams in the world right now?

    I certainly don't think so. A lot of waffle written up there. Why not write how it applies to us. Why are all clubs not at the top not following this principle? Is it because only you and a few others know of it?
    Sorry you think it's waffle. But it does apply us it applies to every organization. These are the ( business ) learnt from the world's top sports organizations. This is what All Black Rugby is founded on, all the top organizations try to practice it to a greater a lesser degree. It is about sustainable winning performance at the top.

    One cannot just throw money at everything in a continually think it will sustain us, because it won't. Why are we not winning and getting results. That has to be looked at internally and externally on every level right down to the tea lady.

    So we have a scenario where a manager wants to play a certain way only, it only partially works in patches. he doesn't have players to do it. Why doesn't he buy them. Is it FSG don't have the money, won't spend it' won't give it to him. What role is the transfer committee playing how do FSG impact on that. It all plays a role, but we don't know what the reality is behind the scenes, we only see their results.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FSG-VanBasten View Post
    That's just it, there is NO definitive answer so clearly you can't say that fsg are doing it wrong then!

    Maybe we are working at 'peak performances' within our means! The way we can increase our peak performance is by spending more and more money. That is not an option for us so we work within our own way of working.
    Stay away from the money, and take a long hard look at the other issues and you will see money isn't the whole problem. Yes we may be working to peak performance but there are issues inside how we do it that need changing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FSG-VanBasten View Post
    So would pep be better for us? Or who would be better than klopp for us?
    Yup, cause he gives better Pep talks...............

    (I'll get my coat)
    People will believe what they want to believe
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    steviewonder87 is online now Academy prospect
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfoot View Post
    Inspirational players and managers provide a meaningful CHALLENGE for an ORGANIZATION (club) and its players that is both important and stretching and that becomes the FOCUS of the organizations ACTIONS that are undertaken to LIVE THE DREAM, and in doing so a purpose to the organization is established that must be nurtured for the future through careful recruitment and development of individuals that make up the organization, together with a long term commitment to an EFFECTIVE INFRASTRUCTURE that allows the dream to be SHARED, which builds an aura of association and sense of BELONGING and a feeling of FAMILY based on trusting relationships, leading the participants to a new sense of HARMONY with self and others, and allowing a passionate commitment to the PURPOSE OF THE ORGANIZATION that establishes an environment with the potency of peak flow or OPTIMAL ORGANIZATIONAL EXPERIENCES, leading to catching the LAST DETAIL and IMAGINING GAME BREAKING IDEAS that enable the CONTINUOUS EXCEEDING OF ORGANIZATIONAL BEST in the endless pursuit of the ORGANIZATIONS SHARED PURPOSE, and ultimately to sustaining peak performance.

    This is what all the great clubs try to do and are trying to do. We have spent 26 years undoing what we started with Shanks and ended when Kenny left.
    Thanks for capitalising all the useless business speak jargon, makes things much clearer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by steviewonder87 View Post
    Thanks for capitalising all the useless business speak jargon, makes things much clearer.
    Figured it would be a bit too much for you, so I'm not surprised at your comment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfoot View Post
    Figured it would be a bit too much for you, so I'm not surprised at your comment.
    To be fair, it does read like a meaningless and nonsensical 'Mission Statement,' Red.

    'Better planning, better organisation' does just as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrottonRed View Post
    Who is pretending?

    There are many managers with big reputations built on inheriting and buying top players.

    The vast majority of which would struggle with our squad and budget.
    Error-free.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiddlerDave View Post
    To be fair, it does read like a meaningless and nonsensical 'Mission Statement,' Red.

    'Better planning, better organisation' does just as well.
    "So Sadio, I'm looking for you to show me the potency of your peak flow today, and a passionate commitment to the purpose of the organisation."

    "So I should try and stick the ball in the back of the net then? "

    "Yes."
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarknessIsCalling View Post
    Yup, cause he gives better Pep talks...............

    (I'll get my coat)
    I will come with you that was funny
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiddlerDave View Post
    To be fair, it does read like a meaningless and nonsensical 'Mission Statement,' Red.

    'Better planning, better organisation' does just as well.
    I tried the generalisation route Diddler and the armchair warriors said they didn't like that - so more evidence you can't win with the loyally blind
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiddlerDave View Post
    To be fair, it does read like a meaningless and nonsensical 'Mission Statement,' Red.

    'Better planning, better organisation' does just as well.
    Because it isn't just structural. Ok here's an example. One of the top clubs put it this way. Inspirational Dream is. more than 1-0 football for the greater good of society. Greatest imaginable challenge, to be the world's best football club, Focus, recruit and develop the very best players through coaching and scouting. They did it and are still top 3. The All Blacks use it for rugby.

    Tell me how inspiring or inspirational do you think FSG are on a scale of 1-10. They told you what their vision is, to get 1billion for the sale of the club. I don't hear the others at the top saying that, they are saying we want to be the best. It isn't about money. Money's energy gets attracted and moves to that attraction, all the top clubs can attract money, it's what that money does, what it achieves is the most important.
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    Quote Originally Posted by steviewonder87 View Post
    "So Sadio, I'm looking for you to show me the potency of your peak flow today, and a passionate commitment to the purpose of the organisation."

    "So I should try and stick the ball in the back of the net then? "

    "Yes."
    Is that supposed to be funny or showing your ignorance again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfoot View Post
    Inspirational players and managers provide a meaningful CHALLENGE for an ORGANIZATION (club) and its players that is both important and stretching and that becomes the FOCUS of the organizations ACTIONS that are undertaken to LIVE THE DREAM, and in doing so a purpose to the organization is established that must be nurtured for the future through careful recruitment and development of individuals that make up the organization, together with a long term commitment to an EFFECTIVE INFRASTRUCTURE that allows the dream to be SHARED, which builds an aura of association and sense of BELONGING and a feeling of FAMILY based on trusting relationships, leading the participants to a new sense of HARMONY with self and others, and allowing a passionate commitment to the PURPOSE OF THE ORGANIZATION that establishes an environment with the potency of peak flow or OPTIMAL ORGANIZATIONAL EXPERIENCES, leading to catching the LAST DETAIL and IMAGINING GAME BREAKING IDEAS that enable the CONTINUOUS EXCEEDING OF ORGANIZATIONAL BEST in the endless pursuit of the ORGANIZATIONS SHARED PURPOSE, and ultimately to sustaining peak performance.

    This is what all the great clubs try to do and are trying to do. We have spent 26 years undoing what we started with Shanks and ended when Kenny left.
    Inspirational people get that way by doing - not talking.... They lead and do what needs to be done.....

    FSG the organisation took a bankrupt, mismanaged business and turned it into a billion pound business, unfortunately they forgot the playing side, 1 trophy in 7 seasons is underachieving, but they have met a challenge of sorts....

    The next old purplenose/Shankly/Pep or the Dortmund version of Klopp is out there, just like the right players and mix required to bring home the gold.....

    People get too attached to what we have, instead of doing their homework....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mysteron View Post
    Inspirational people get that way by doing - not talking.... They lead and do what needs to be done.....

    FSG the organisation took a bankrupt, mismanaged business and turned it into a billion pound business, unfortunately they forgot the playing side, 1 trophy in 7 seasons is underachieving, but they have met a challenge of sorts....

    The next old purplenose/Shankly/Pep or the Dortmund version of Klopp is out there, just like the right players and mix required to bring home the gold.....

    People get too attached to what we have, instead of doing their homework....
    I think fans do do their homework, for example they find records of form klopp had at dortmund, Klopp can't help if supporters don't believe in the players.
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfoot View Post
    Is that supposed to be funny or showing your ignorance again.
    Figured it would be a bit too much for you, so I'm not surprised at your comment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by steviewonder87 View Post
    "So Sadio, I'm looking for you to show me the potency of your peak flow today, and a passionate commitment to the purpose of the organisation."

    "So I should try and stick the ball in the back of the net then? "

    "Yes."
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLiddellGreates View Post
    I think fans do do their homework, for example they find records of form klopp had at dortmund, Klopp can't help if supporters don't believe in the players.
    We don't need Klopp's record at Dortmund, what does that do? We have far greater needs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfoot View Post
    Inspirational players and managers provide a meaningful CHALLENGE for an ORGANIZATION (club) and its players that is both important and stretching and that becomes the FOCUS of the organizations ACTIONS that are undertaken to LIVE THE DREAM, and in doing so a purpose to the organization is established that must be nurtured for the future through careful recruitment and development of individuals that make up the organization, together with a long term commitment to an EFFECTIVE INFRASTRUCTURE that allows the dream to be SHARED, which builds an aura of association and sense of BELONGING and a feeling of FAMILY based on trusting relationships, leading the participants to a new sense of HARMONY with self and others, and allowing a passionate commitment to the PURPOSE OF THE ORGANIZATION that establishes an environment with the potency of peak flow or OPTIMAL ORGANIZATIONAL EXPERIENCES, leading to catching the LAST DETAIL and IMAGINING GAME BREAKING IDEAS that enable the CONTINUOUS EXCEEDING OF ORGANIZATIONAL BEST in the endless pursuit of the ORGANIZATIONS SHARED PURPOSE, and ultimately to sustaining peak performance.

    This is what all the great clubs try to do and are trying to do. We have spent 26 years undoing what we started with Shanks and ended when Kenny left.
    Such inspirational words.. I nearly had a tear in my eye.. or is that meant to be tear? a tear due to a tear in my eye?
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfoot View Post
    Sorry you think it's waffle. But it does apply us it applies to every organization. These are the ( business ) learnt from the world's top sports organizations. This is what All Black Rugby is founded on, all the top organizations try to practice it to a greater a lesser degree. It is about sustainable winning performance at the top.

    One cannot just throw money at everything in a continually think it will sustain us, because it won't. Why are we not winning and getting results. That has to be looked at internally and externally on every level right down to the tea lady.

    So we have a scenario where a manager wants to play a certain way only, it only partially works in patches. he doesn't have players to do it. Why doesn't he buy them. Is it FSG don't have the money, won't spend it' won't give it to him. What role is the transfer committee playing how do FSG impact on that. It all plays a role, but we don't know what the reality is behind the scenes, we only see their results.
    It is waffle because clearly the successful clubs like city, Chelsea, Madrid, psg do not follow your holistic synergy nonsense and follow a splash the cash on whatever approach. Because they have it.

    And why does klopp not buy the players? Why don't spurs or arsenal buy the players to win the title?

    Fsg have never said they won't let him spend. He just has a cap on what he can spend in terms of what we generate. Other clubs do not have that cap. Is that hard to understand?

    They can buy ready made world class players or proven players.
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfoot View Post
    Stay away from the money, and take a long hard look at the other issues and you will see money isn't the whole problem. Yes we may be working to peak performance but there are issues inside how we do it that need changing.
    What needs changing?

    Klopp? You want a rookie in SG to take over who has never proven anything in management? Is that the way forward?

    Every club has issues inside and they try to mitigate them. The richer clubs can mitigate them more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfoot View Post
    Because it isn't just structural. Ok here's an example. One of the top clubs put it this way. Inspirational Dream is. more than 1-0 football for the greater good of society. Greatest imaginable challenge, to be the world's best football club, Focus, recruit and develop the very best players through coaching and scouting. They did it and are still top 3. The All Blacks use it for rugby.

    Tell me how inspiring or inspirational do you think FSG are on a scale of 1-10. They told you what their vision is, to get 1billion for the sale of the club. I don't hear the others at the top saying that, they are saying we want to be the best. It isn't about money. Money's energy gets attracted and moves to that attraction, all the top clubs can attract money, it's what that money does, what it achieves is the most important.
    So when did fsg say their goal was to get 1billion? Or you making up more stuff?

    When you say to recruit the very best players, sounds easy.

    The very best players are Messi, Ronaldo, neymar, bale, suarez, hazard.

    One was sold for £200m. Is that who we target?

    Why is every club not targeting these players? Are we not 'focusing' and is klopp just signing random players? Are psg doing it the right way because they have the money to do it? Same as Madrid? Munich?

    Which non top level club has been able to do this and maintain that approach? Or is it just us that is missing out and all other decent clubs are doing it and reaching the elite level?
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    Jur-Gone is online now Previous username 'Klopp-OUT' just for reference
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    What a great article by Carra. Klopp should read it, maybe he learns something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FSG-VanBasten View Post
    What needs changing?

    Klopp? You want a rookie in SG to take over who has never proven anything in management? Is that the way forward?

    Every club has issues inside and they try to mitigate them. The richer clubs can mitigate them more.
    We are just going round and round and in circles and we are never going to agree on much. You are obsessed by the money issue etc etc. So why don't we agree to disagree and just accept it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jur-Gone View Post
    What a great article by Carra. Klopp should read it, maybe he learns something.
    When many felt the League Cup and Europa League final in 2016 were just the start for Klopp, I worried they were finals that had to be won because they do not come around frequently. To me, it felt like massive opportunities were missed.

    Between 2001 and 2009 the Liverpool team I played in won every trophy except the Premier League. Both Houllier and Benítez were sacked, yet I argued at the time - and believe it even more now - this was a golden era for a younger generation of Liverpool fans. Houllier and Benítez were successful managers. The problem is every Liverpool team is measured against what happened between 1963-90.
    Please Jamie stop. Carra should take a look back at those 3 goals Milan scored inside 45mins and remember his task was to prevent them going in. Our Captain and attack won us the majority of those trophies and our goalkeepers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfoot View Post
    We are just going round and round and in circles and we are never going to agree on much. You are obsessed by the money issue etc etc. So why don't we agree to disagree and just accept it.
    You haven't responded to my other points in regards to the holistic synergy the likes of Munich, Madrid, city, psg and Chelsea use.

    Nor have you shown an example of this so called better way of working in football having sustained success anywhere in the top leagues.

    Oh and your Robert kraft thing is laughable. Still waiting for a response on that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IDREAMOFGINI View Post
    Please Jamie stop. Carra should take a look back at those 3 goals Milan scored inside 45mins and remember his task was to prevent them going in. Our Captain and attack won us the majority of those trophies and our goalkeepers.
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