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Thread: Brexit...Deal or No Deal?

  1. #1681  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luises-Finger View Post
    Because its all the same to the STs of this world. If its got Europe in it or Union in it, they want rid of it. They don't care about your subtleties and nuances.

    My observation so far is, there's more of them than you. You're either a minority in a majority or a silent majority. Your kind of brexiter are totally absent amongst my friends and theirs and well hidden on things like question time.

    And ultimately, you've recently confirmed, your with them. WTO will do.
    So Dookar asks you to lay out why it is 'nonsense' and your answer is to take the view as if it is STs world? Maybe just say you don't know or can't? And maybe not dismiss the differences as subtleties and nuances - they are not small-print but operational facts.
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  2. #1682  
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasonedtraveller View Post
    A new horizon. A whole new world. Freedom from the bureaucrats of the eu.
    That is just hyperbole,
    What is it exactly that excites you about leaving the EU ?
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  3. #1683  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrDilkington View Post
    That is just hyperbole,
    What is it exactly that excites you about leaving the EU ?
    I'll answer that as ST will avoid it, saying this was done and dusted in June 2016.

    Its that at their heart the rw brexiters of which ST is one believe the EU was socialism by the back door, forgetting of course that most of Europe which is centre/right are fully signed up members. Merkle isnt a commie or socialist yet her country is a full signer to the Social Chapter. The truth is that people like ST, the Tory right, UKip and most of the daily press want a state which is as small as possible a la Singapore. When you look at Brexit and the international players who are ion favour of it you think China, Russia and Putin and you think Trump. These are the people in favour of Brexit..says all you need to know i think.
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  4. #1684  
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasonedtraveller View Post
    ...
    Why don't you go back a bit and actually answer the question on topic put to you, 'What is it exactly that excites you about leaving the EU?'

    Forget the whole new world intangible stuff, its just the UK, Earth has not voted out of the Universe, so what is it about the UK leaving the EU in a real sense that excites you?
    Last edited by GrottonRed; 9-1-18 at 12:58. Reason: quote deleted
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  5. #1685  
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    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    Why don't you go back a bit and actually answer the question on topic put to you, 'What is it exactly that excites you about leaving the EU?'

    Forget the whole new world intangible stuff, its just the UK, Earth has not voted out of the Universe, so what is it about the UK leaving the EU in a real sense that excites you?
    New opportunities.
    Ambitious people will grasp the chance.
    With people like you around its a wonder we discovered America
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  6. #1686  
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasonedtraveller View Post
    New opportunities.
    Ambitious people will grasp the chance.
    With people like you around its a wonder we discovered America
    We didn't.

    There were a couple of Taffys on the Santa Maria, though.
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  7. #1687  
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiddlerDave View Post
    We didn't.

    There were a couple of Taffys on the Santa Maria, though.
    I meant anybody discovered anything. Let's sit at home its safer attitude
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  8. #1688  
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasonedtraveller View Post
    I meant anybody discovered anything. Let's sit at home its safer attitude
    You manage to extrapolate that nonsense from Welshypool's perfectly reasonable position of preferring the EU. Well done.

    I have to add that most people I've spoken to here in NZ welcomed the Brexit decision.
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  9. #1689  
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasonedtraveller View Post
    New opportunities.
    Ambitious people will grasp the chance.
    With people like you around its a wonder we discovered America
    I see, no real idea of why they are now free to do that and weren't before

    People like me?

    What have I done now exactly?
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  10. #1690  
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    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    I see, no real idea of why they are now free to do that and weren't before

    People like me?

    What have I done now exactly?
    Trade wise you know what I mean
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  11. #1691  
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    Quote Originally Posted by DantesShadow View Post
    So Dookar asks you to lay out why it is 'nonsense' and your answer is to take the view as if it is STs world? Maybe just say you don't know or can't? And maybe not dismiss the differences as subtleties and nuances - they are not small-print but operational facts.
    You can't be surprised by vapid, unsubstantiated inaccuracies. Not in this thread
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  12. #1692  
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasonedtraveller View Post
    New opportunities.
    Ambitious people will grasp the chance.
    With people like you around its a wonder we discovered America
    New opportunities how and in what way ?

    I am struggling to see how being out of the EU is helping anyones ambitions..

    What has changed in that respect ?
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  13. #1693  
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasonedtraveller View Post
    Trade wise you know what I mean
    Arent they an insurance company ?
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  14. #1694  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrDilkington View Post
    New opportunities how and in what way ?

    I am struggling to see how being out of the EU is helping anyones ambitions..

    What has changed in that respect ?
    He's been pretty clear he's talking about the ability to independently agree trade deals
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  15. #1695  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dookar View Post
    He's been pretty clear he's talking about the ability to independently agree trade deals
    They know what I mean. They just want me to prove my expertise .....and because I can't it means brexit will fail......in their eyes lol
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  16. #1696  
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasonedtraveller View Post
    They know what I mean. They just want me to prove my expertise .....and because I can't it means brexit will fail......in their eyes lol
    Brexit already has failed, two years ago it was voted for and we are still in the same position we were back then.
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  17. #1697  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrDilkington View Post
    Brexit already has failed, two years ago it was voted for and we are still in the same position we were back then.
    So you wanted us to come out the day after the referendum? Me too.

    Sadly there are procedures to go through a bit like a divorce. All that eu red tape you see. They make it so hard for a rich country like us to leave because they don't want us to leave they want our money....year after year
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  18. #1698  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrDilkington View Post
    Brexit already has failed, two years ago it was voted for and we are still in the same position we were back then.
    Don't be silly
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  19. #1699  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrDilkington View Post


    If only it was as simple as you make it sound.
    Quote Originally Posted by seasonedtraveller View Post
    It is. We leave thats it only the remoaners are making a big deal out if it .
    Cameron already tried to negotiate a better eu deal for us and the sent him away with nothing. They called our bluff thinking we'd bottle it. Thankfully over half of us who voted have bottle

    Quote Originally Posted by seasonedtraveller View Post
    So you wanted us to come out the day after the referendum? Me too.

    Sadly there are procedures to go through a bit like a divorce. All that eu red tape you see. They make it so hard for a rich country like us to leave because they don't want us to leave they want our money....year after year
    Make your mind up.

    I never wanted us to come out at all, we are going backwards putting years of work to waste, but I can accept that the leave vote won, no matter how backwards the reasons of most people that voted.

    The fact remains, we voted and nothing came from it because the people you were putting your hope into getting us out are as clueless about resolving the issue as you are.
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  20. #1700  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dookar View Post
    He's been pretty clear he's talking about the ability to independently agree trade deals
    He has been anything but clear.
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  21. #1701  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrDilkington View Post
    Make your mind up.

    I never wanted us to come out at all, we are going backwards putting years of work to waste, but I can accept that the leave vote won, no matter how backwards the reasons of most people that voted.

    The fact remains, we voted and nothing came from it because the people you were putting your hope into getting us out are as clueless about resolving the issue as you are.
    The only clueless people are those who think we can just leave.
    These negotiations take time you can't just walk away.
    Once it is done I will have a smile as wide as the mersey
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  22. #1702  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrDilkington View Post
    He has been anything but clear.
    I guess it's a comprehension thing
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  23. #1703  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dookar View Post
    I guess it's a comprehension thing
    I thought everybody knew leaving the eu would enable us to negotiate trade deals with countries all over the world .
    Maybe if Mr d had know that he'd have voted brexit too!
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  24. #1704  
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasonedtraveller View Post
    Thats what we will be negotiating.
    Once we leave the eu we can negotiate and then renegotiate. Unlike being in the eu where we have to like it or lump it.
    I acknowledge that. But it won't yield results quickly and we haven't planned or prepared for the period in between. Elsewhere you've talked about discovering the new world. Discovered by accident b.t.w , but I accept your point that it wouldn't have been discovered unless someone set sail.

    My point is that all these adventurers were not fools. They planned and prepared as much as they could before they set off. It's also the case that the expedition members ended up well rewarded for their bravery.

    If I thought that the government would guarantee that the pains and gains of brexit would be shared proportionately across the nation, you wouldn't get a peep from me. I don't believe that will happen. The least amongst us will get the decade of pain and nothing after that. Sovereignty will not reward them. It rarely has.
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  25. #1705  
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    Quote Originally Posted by DantesShadow View Post
    So Dookar asks you to lay out why it is 'nonsense' and your answer is to take the view as if it is STs world? Maybe just say you don't know or can't? And maybe not dismiss the differences as subtleties and nuances - they are not small-print but operational facts.
    Ah but I do know and I can.

    The assertion: Disingenuous conflation of the EU and the single market.

    EU four freedoms: movement of goods, money, services, people/labour. First 3 are strictly business/finance related which I'll label trade. However for the EU trade and people/labour are a package. You cant have one without the other.

    Conflation of the EU and single markets exists even if it is wrong. Doesn't matter that it's right that the two can be separate. To many UK citizens EU, Single Market is the same thing. Sections of the media have seen to it. To other citizens, they know the difference but the single market is how they ended up with the EU. They're inextricably connected.

    Also in their views the EU was/is responsible for the free movement of people/labour which distresses them. They were told that repeatedly during the referendum in which 52% voted to leave the EU. A number of that 52% believe, to get trade you have to accept the people/labour. They don't want the people/labour so they de-facto reject the trade.

    Their fear is trading with the EU is the thin end of a fat wedge they just voted against.

    Do these people I talk off exist? Go check out youtube or talk show programmes on TV or radio. I found another example just yesterday on the BBC's brexitcast video podcast about 36m30s in. Articulate young man named Will who's got the same mind set as a much older ST. The received wisdom spans generations, which imo is significant.

    Will: "I think we will leave but we will go from a position of being half in the EU to half out of the EU"
    Pundit: "And is that a thumbs up from you or a thumbs down?"
    Will: "It's disgraceful because we voted to leave the EU and become a self-governing nation once again. I believe we're seeing the great brexit betrayal happening before our very eyes."

    There's your conflation. It's real even if its wrong. The proof is all over the internet. If you care to look.

    Edit: There's another brexiteer guy who follows on after Will, in support of his statements. Again, young and articulate. His view may be incomplete or incorrect, but it's the one he's forming his decisions with.
    "If you're in the single market and the customs union they obey all the laws of the EU so you have to have its tariff structures and you can't have your own trade deals."
    Last edited by Luises-Finger; 9-1-18 at 23:33.
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  26. #1706  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dookar View Post
    You can't be surprised by vapid, unsubstantiated inaccuracies. Not in this thread
    Now substantiated. Plenty more if you care to look.
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  27. #1707  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luises-Finger View Post
    Now substantiated. Plenty more if you care to look.
    Pointing out others who are equally wrong in no way validates your position
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  28. #1708  
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasonedtraveller View Post
    I meant anybody discovered anything. Let's sit at home its safer attitude
    In the world as it is today Id rather be in the EU than out of it. I mean if yre counting as our new allies and potential trading partners, China, trump or putin then sorry thats not a world I see any golden horizons on.
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  29. #1709  
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasonedtraveller View Post
    I thought everybody knew leaving the eu would enable us to negotiate trade deals with countries all over the world .
    Maybe if Mr d had know that he'd have voted brexit too!
    ST we are about to leave the biggest free trade block ever invented for a tariff future. Why do this if not for political digmatic, ideological reasons. There is no economic sense to it.
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  30. #1710  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dookar View Post
    He's been pretty clear he's talking about the ability to independently agree trade deals
    He was anything but clear.
    We were free to independently agree deals before anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by seasonedtraveller View Post
    The only clueless people are those who think we can just leave.
    These negotiations take time you can't just walk away.
    Once it is done I will have a smile as wide as the mersey
    but you said we could just walk away ?
    make your mind up.
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