Notices
Reply to Thread
Page 51 of 51 FirstFirst ... 41495051
Results 1,501 to 1,530 of 1530

Thread: Brexit...Deal or No Deal?

  1. #1501  
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    62,199
    Quote Originally Posted by GrottonRed View Post
    Parliament was always going to have a vote on any final deal...it was already on the table.

    The defeat last night was about powers the government would have to sort out the technical aspects of any change, quickly and efficiently.

    Some MPs thought those powers were undemocratic, so voted it down...the majority wanted to just give May a slap.

    The defeat also means that Parliament, though it already had a vote, has the right to vote down any deal with the EU and send the government back to the negotiating table.

    Sounds sensible...except the EU isn't going to change a deal unless it's own side votes it down...why should they?

    In reality, this is about MPs trying to either reverse the referendum completely or take the Norway option or do what ever it takes to bring the government down.

    Unless May and co start being smarter, we are looking at being in perpetual transition.

    As a Labour voter, this isn't a good thing...as I'd prefer to let the tories get the Brexit they want, then win the next election due to the backlash of it's initial effects.

    If Labour stop Brexit...or delay it too much, it will split their voting base and they will be back to pre Corbyn vote share.

    It really is a shambles...but when you have 650 MPs for whom, for the majority, their lives have been wonderful whilst in the EU and don't want anything to possibly risk that, it isn't really surprising.

    What we are going to end up with, is either to stay in the EU or to pretend we've left, but still be in it, in all but name.

    And then look forward to another decade of Conservative austerity.
    I don't know if you have noticed but the UK is the only country I can think of with these existential issues.
    If you go to Oslo or Zurich and you are someone there if they think they are in the EU what do you think they would tell you? Likewise, do you really think these countries don't feel they are sovereign? it is laughable to be honest. All of this steams of pure ignorance and manipulation from the media/politicians.

    I could be wrong but didn't the vast majority of the labour voters backed remain? Sure, you can not keep everyone happy and I am sure some of the usual labour voters would disagree with other stuff as well and you may also argue they may able to get other "remain" votes from voters of other parties.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  2. #1502  
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    27,325
    Quote Originally Posted by GrottonRed View Post
    The problem Labour has is that many MPs would be facing defeat if they actively stop Brexit...and I don't believe Corbyn wants it stopped either.

    If Brexit is stopped, the Labour party will be wiped out at the next election...and while the Euro sceptic tories would be furious...another 10+ years in government would be a nice consolation for them.

    What is essential though, is we don't end up in a an everlasting transition...that would be far more damaging to the country and economy.

    Leave...don't leave...whichever it is, get on with it! Until it's done and we get over the fall out, the country is in limbo.
    I'm not convinced of that personally, it would take some work but it doesn't have to be that way, if they are opportunistic enough and smart that is.

    We do have to get on with it, the principle issue is we're no clearer on what that means now that May and her gang can't sneak their own personalised version through so yes if we have to do it lets do so but properly.

    If 'properly' isn't possible, then the whole Brexit route is dead and never really was possible for the UK
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  3. #1503  
    GrottonRed is online now LFC Forums Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    24,551
    Quote Originally Posted by Alon1 View Post
    I don't know if you have noticed but the UK is the only country I can think of with these existential issues.
    If you go to Oslo or Zurich and you are someone there if they think they are in the EU what do you think they would tell you? Likewise, do you really think these countries don't feel they are sovereign? it is laughable to be honest. All of this steams of pure ignorance and manipulation from the media/politicians.

    I could be wrong but didn't the vast majority of the labour voters backed remain? Sure, you can not keep everyone happy and I am sure some of the usual labour voters would disagree with other stuff as well and you may also argue they may able to get other "remain" votes from voters of other parties.
    No...they didn't. Some Labour areas had the biggest remain vote...and others had the biggest leave vote.

    And that's why it's so divisive.

    If it followed political party lines, it would be pretty straightforward.

    Tbh, I don't care how people in other countries think of themselves...that is a matter for them.
    Life President of TEPS...The Ellipsis Preservation Society.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  4. #1504  
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    4,012
    Quote Originally Posted by dookar View Post
    So what? We've established they're clueless and dishonest
    I am not convinced they did it for parliamentary sovereignty either (lots of different reasons they voted that way). Not to mention the hypocrisy of it seeing as though it was about powers that did not sit with parliament anyway.

    That said, I have no problem with the vote and its outcome.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  5. #1505  
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    62,199
    Quote Originally Posted by GrottonRed View Post
    No...they didn't. Some Labour areas had the biggest remain vote...and others had the biggest leave vote.

    And that's why it's so divisive.

    If it followed political party lines, it would be pretty straightforward.

    Tbh, I don't care how people in other countries think of themselves...that is a matter for them.
    I have seen in some polls that the vast majority (something like 70-30) of labour voters supported remain, I mean when you put them all together, of course it may well be the case that in some areas (with lower population) more labour voters had backed remain, that may make sense but what would be the percentage in the big cities? I expect very small.

    Sure, it is far more important what you think about other countries than what they think about themselves, that makes sense.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  6. #1506  
    dreams-come-true is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    38,463
    Quote Originally Posted by GrottonRed View Post
    No...they didn't. Some Labour areas had the biggest remain vote...and others had the biggest leave vote.

    And that's why it's so divisive.

    If it followed political party lines, it would be pretty straightforward.

    Tbh, I don't care how people in other countries think of themselves...that is a matter for them.
    Sunderland and the North-East, where they assemble Nissans or Japanese cars, apparently voted big for Brexit. Labour voters usually. No one knows whether this was logical or not. Brexiters are many and very varied and do not always think in logical ways ... like any effect of Brexit on their own livelihoods.

    I sometimes think democracy is something to do with swaying people on their gut feelings and stirring up things which can easily manipulate people in quite strange directions. No... obviously people are contrary and sometimes dont use their "nod" in the best ways. Nevertheless, eventually it will dawn on people about votes taken and decisions made.
    Last edited by dreams-come-true; Today at 12:26.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  7. #1507  
    GrottonRed is online now LFC Forums Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    24,551
    Quote Originally Posted by Alon1 View Post
    I have seen in some polls that the vast majority (something like 70-30) of labour voters supported remain, I mean when you put them all together, of course it may well be the case that in some areas (with lower population) more labour voters had backed remain, that may make sense but what would be the percentage in the big cities? I expect very small.

    Sure, it is far more important what you think about other countries than what they think about themselves, that makes sense.
    Ah...the straw man...
    Life President of TEPS...The Ellipsis Preservation Society.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  8. #1508  
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    17,868
    The European Council have stated that the Brexit negotiations can move to the second stage. They have also published the guidelines about their wishes.

    http://www.consilium.europa.eu//medi...delines-en.pdf
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  9. #1509  
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    14,569
    Quote Originally Posted by GrottonRed View Post
    No...they didn't. Some Labour areas had the biggest remain vote...and others had the biggest leave vote.

    And that's why it's so divisive.

    If it followed political party lines, it would be pretty straightforward.

    Tbh, I don't care how people in other countries think of themselves...that is a matter for them.
    62% of Lab voters nationally voted remain.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  10. #1510  
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    4,012
    Quote Originally Posted by ghyllred View Post
    62% of Lab voters nationally voted remain.
    Different populations in different areas. And we live in a parliamentary democracy and so the more accurate way of looking at it is to see how many labour MP constituencies voted out or would swing as a result.

    UKIP had over 4 million votes but no MPs. Labour could easily go worse. If it was on pure numbers then London would be even more disproportionately powerful.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  11. #1511  
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    1,763
    We should hit Europe real hard with this phase 2 and see what the conquer up. Both sides will be wanting a tough negotiation.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  12. #1512  
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    27,325
    Quote Originally Posted by IDREAMOFGINI View Post
    We should hit Europe real hard with this phase 2 and see what the conquer up. Both sides will be wanting a tough negotiation.
    Hit them hard with what?
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  13. #1513  
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    14,569
    Quote Originally Posted by IDREAMOFGINI View Post
    We should hit Europe real hard with this phase 2 and see what the conquer up. Both sides will be wanting a tough negotiation.
    All this fantasy talk is just that. It reminds me of the Bennite left in the Lab party in the 80s. Its about what you think should happen or want to happen rather than what is good for the whole country or will actually happen. Cast your mind back a few months and a lot on the far right including most of the press were saying we should not be paying the EU anything..then reality sets in. We should walk away from any deal..then reality sets in.

    Did you notice all the EU leaders yesterday speaking with press? Ask yourself this..how many of them are of the left? None is the answer. Theyre all from the centre-right which just goes to show does it not, how extreme our governing party and its friends in the press are. Would you be happy with an extreme left wing press and a mostly v left wing govt? We have the equivalent of the militant tendency in power now except theyre from the right and are looking after the interests of the richest..exclusively. Are record homeless figures the fault of the EU? Is increasing child poverty the fault of the EU? Low investment in education and health or the emergency services, the fault of the EU?
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  14. #1514  
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    21,957
    Not sure if this will work, but this thread sums up my thoughts. Also Julia Dunning-Kruger made me laugh

    https://twitter.com/PeteNorth303/sta...87152404369408
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  15. #1515  
    dreams-come-true is online now First team regular
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    38,463
    seasoned traveller must be a bit down by now. All this gungho stuff must get a bit tiring ... especially when you come to the realisation that it is useless being like that.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  16. #1516  
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    21,957
    Quote Originally Posted by dreams-come-true View Post
    seasoned traveller must be a bit down by now. All this gungho stuff must get a bit tiring ... especially when you come to the realisation that it is useless being like that.
    I imagine he's delighted. This 'meaningful vote' Parliament has secured only makes a hard Brexit more likely
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  17. #1517  
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    1,763
    Quote Originally Posted by ghyllred View Post
    All this fantasy talk is just that. It reminds me of the Bennite left in the Lab party in the 80s. Its about what you think should happen or want to happen rather than what is good for the whole country or will actually happen. Cast your mind back a few months and a lot on the far right including most of the press were saying we should not be paying the EU anything..then reality sets in. We should walk away from any deal..then reality sets in.

    Did you notice all the EU leaders yesterday speaking with press? Ask yourself this..how many of them are of the left? None is the answer. Theyre all from the centre-right which just goes to show does it not, how extreme our governing party and its friends in the press are. Would you be happy with an extreme left wing press and a mostly v left wing govt? We have the equivalent of the militant tendency in power now except theyre from the right and are looking after the interests of the richest..exclusively. Are record homeless figures the fault of the EU? Is increasing child poverty the fault of the EU? Low investment in education and health or the emergency services, the fault of the EU?
    If you go into a Brexit negotiation you go in hard, its like business. You have your profit forecast on a product service but you initially set the profit high to leave room for negotiations. The fishing industry in the UK has benefited already with phase 1, now its time to do likewise with other sectors.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  18. #1518  
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    62,199
    Quote Originally Posted by IDREAMOFGINI View Post
    If you go into a Brexit negotiation you go in hard, its like business. You have your profit forecast on a product service but you initially set the profit high to leave room for negotiations. The fishing industry in the UK has benefited already with phase 1, now its time to do likewise with other sectors.
    Nah
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  19. #1519  
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    1,763
    Quote Originally Posted by Alon1 View Post
    Nah
    ok then, we just roll over and plunge the country into economic devastation like Germany after WW1 and hope a Messiah emerges with Jeremy as the propagandist Goebbels
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  20. #1520  
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    21,957
    Quote Originally Posted by IDREAMOFGINI View Post
    ok then, we just roll over and plunge the country into economic devastation like Germany after WW1 and hope a Messiah emerges with Jeremy as the propagandist Goebbels
    What are you on about? We're negotiating a withdrawal, 'go in hard' implies we refuse to make that a seamless withdrawal.

    That, my friend, is where your economic devastation come from
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  21. #1521  
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    62,199
    Quote Originally Posted by IDREAMOFGINI View Post
    ok then, we just roll over and plunge the country into economic devastation like Germany after WW1 and hope a Messiah emerges with Jeremy as the propagandist Goebbels
    Jesus Christ
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  22. #1522  
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    1,763
    Quote Originally Posted by Alon1 View Post
    Jesus Christ
    no, an economic Messiah. not an ecumenical one
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  23. #1523  
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    1,763
    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    Hit them hard with what?
    a good old British dish - Fish and chips wrapped in a British newspaper or a beef wellington with yorkshire puddings
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  24. #1524  
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    62,199
    Quote Originally Posted by IDREAMOFGINI View Post
    no, an economic Messiah. not an ecumenical one
    I donít think history is for you to be honest. Do you follow football or are you one thee guys has joined the forum to post only in this thread?
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  25. #1525  
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    1,763
    Quote Originally Posted by Alon1 View Post
    I donít think history is for you to be honest. Do you follow football or are you one thee guys has joined the forum to post only in this thread?
    don't get all touchy, its nearly Xmas
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  26. #1526  
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    27,325
    Quote Originally Posted by IDREAMOFGINI View Post
    a good old British dish - Fish and chips wrapped in a British newspaper or a beef wellington with yorkshire puddings
    That's about all we have to offer, let's not give that away too.

    Go in steady, offer a thin skinned boneless chicken. More commonly known as Theresa May.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  27. #1527  
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    1,763
    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    That's about all we have to offer, let's not give that away too.

    Go in steady, offer a thin skinned boneless chicken. More commonly known as Theresa May.
    if she comes back wrapped up like a chicken kebab, time to send in Farage.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  28. #1528  
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Posts
    16,710
    Quote Originally Posted by IDREAMOFGINI View Post
    If you go into a Brexit negotiation you go in hard, its like business. You have your profit forecast on a product service but you initially set the profit high to leave room for negotiations. The fishing industry in the UK has benefited already with phase 1, now its time to do likewise with other sectors.
    If you go into negotiations hard without the prospect of paying of debt.
    The bank will put you into administration and you end up with nothing.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  29. #1529  
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    27,325
    Quote Originally Posted by IDREAMOFGINI View Post
    if she comes back wrapped up like a chicken kebab, time to send in Farage.
    Farage, the spiritual leader of the leave campaign

    Galling that he's had an influence in all of this.

    Still, he is going to draw on his EU pension shortly, that's nice for him
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   

  30. #1530  
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    3,312
    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    Farage, the spiritual leader of the leave campaign

    Galling that he's had an influence in all of this.

    Still, he is going to draw on his EU pension shortly, that's nice for him
    Poor Nigel. Confessional piece today with the Mail which scrapes out the journalistic puke pot .."Farage falls silent. His soulfulness is unexpected."

    Thankfully it's not necessary to even read it to find some cheer in the fact that everybody knows that he now has as much value as badly soiled toilet paper.
    Reply With Quote   Quick reply to this message   Report Post   



Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •