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Thread: Brexit...Deal or No Deal?

  1. #2521  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreams-come-true View Post
    Remind me again ... what are your relevant points concerning Brexit? If it isn't that the EU is imposing its almighty will on us all? Without our consent?
    What? Relevant points on why i voted against brexit? Mostly due to my own circumstances, but generally, of the top of my head the relevant points for me for staying in were that economically the EU benefited the UK and despite the downsides the UK was not in a position to leave especially after the financial crisis (i never expected remaining in the SM or CU or Norway style option to be on the table so based my decision on compete exit).

    The EU also does great things in terms of product standards and standardisation, some good things on environment (mostly EU-wide cooperation on green policies), and the EU is more willing to tackle some giant multinationals in regards to its citizens such as privacy laws and right to forget and for example what information can be collected on you), and at times good things on sanctions.

    The reason to vote for brexit were indeed sovereignty and accountability of our government that had been falling away, the desire for a new direction for the UK where the people had more say, immigration that to me was more international and based on need or merit (i am as british as anyone else, but my heritage is not european and the constant whining by pro-europeans to cut non EU immigration left a bad taste considering what this country was built on - and hint it is not the EU that made the UK rich). And really a change to working practices that meant quality of jobs improves rather than the lowest paid jobs being suppressed. The UK seriously needs to look at its quality of life and protect it rather than be a workhouse engine for europe.

    And having worked with and at times in the Commission, I know full well that not only does the UK not always get to choose its position (without giving up related stuff, usually based on money) but also that the Commission and other states are not so pure and often are happy to see the rest of the world burn as long as the EU is OK. The amount of times the UK has had to force and bribe the EU to do the right thing is astounding.
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  2. #2522  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreams-come-true View Post
    I dont know. But one thing is for sure ... there is also a very strong "free market" faction in the EU ... not surprising as many of the "economically more successful" countries have conservative pro-free-market influences ... and these people want labour prices to go to rock bottom. To compete with China say. So, no, not everything about the EU is good.
    Actually the thing i mentioned is good, and it is implemented as protection against labour prices hitting bottom
    https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-ma...ying-eu-law_en
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  3. #2523  
    dreams-come-true is online now First team regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by DantesShadow View Post
    What? Relevant points on why i voted against brexit? Mostly due to my own circumstances, but generally, of the top of my head the relevant points for me for staying in were that economically the EU benefited the UK and despite the downsides the UK was not in a position to leave especially after the financial crisis (i never expected remaining in the SM or CU or Norway style option to be on the table so based my decision on compete exit).

    The EU also does great things in terms of product standards and standardisation, some good things on environment (mostly EU-wide cooperation on green policies), and the EU is more willing to tackle some giant multinationals in regards to its citizens such as privacy laws and right to forget and for example what information can be collected on you), and at times good things on sanctions.

    The reason to vote for brexit were indeed sovereignty and accountability of our government that had been falling away, the desire for a new direction for the UK where the people had more say, immigration that to me was more international and based on need or merit (i am as british as anyone else, but my heritage is not european and the constant whining by pro-europeans to cut non EU immigration left a bad taste considering what this country was built on - and hint it is not the EU that made the UK rich). And really a change to working practices that meant quality of jobs improves rather than the lowest paid jobs being suppressed. The UK seriously needs to look at its quality of life and protect it rather than be a workhouse engine for europe.

    And having worked with and at times in the Commission, I know full well that not only does the UK not always get to choose its position (without giving up related stuff, usually based on money) but also that the Commission and other states are not so pure and often are happy to see the rest of the world burn as long as the EU is OK. The amount of times the UK has had to force and bribe the EU to do the right thing is astounding.
    Please give an example of ... The reason to vote for brexit were indeed sovereignty and accountability of our government that had been falling away,
    - What exactly has been "falling away"? In terms of Sovereignty and Accountability?
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  4. #2524  
    GrottonRed is online now LFC Forums Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreams-come-true View Post
    Please give an example of ... The reason to vote for brexit were indeed sovereignty and accountability of our government that had been falling away,
    - What exactly has been "falling away"? In terms of Sovereignty and Accountability?
    Accountability is pretty obvious.

    The standard response to government criticism, even under Blair was, We'd like to change, but EU (add which is convenient) law stops us from doing it effectively.

    Being out, removes that "get out" clause.

    Governments of whatever flavour, will now be totally accountable for their actions.

    Even Labour cannot blame Brexit...as they have backed it in principle.
    Life President of TEPS...The Ellipsis Preservation Society.
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  5. #2525  
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrottonRed View Post
    Accountability is pretty obvious.

    The standard response to government criticism, even under Blair was, We'd like to change, but EU (add which is convenient) law stops us from doing it effectively.

    Being out, removes that "get out" clause.

    Governments of whatever flavour, will now be totally accountable for their actions.

    Even Labour cannot blame Brexit...as they have backed it in principle.
    Many times when politicians dont want to change something, they just blame it on the Eu
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  6. #2526  
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    This is pretty basic stuff, we literally have an act of parliament ceding sovereignty and supremacy of law to the EU. Just because those things were handed over voluntarily, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

    Yes, parliament can repeal the act and regain those things, that's what we've asked them to do. Until the effective date of that repeal, parliament is not truly sovereign.

    Further, one of the most important principles of our parliamentary democracy is that no parliament can bind its successor, whilst that act is in force, each parliament is bound by EU decisions made during the tenure of its predecessors.
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  7. #2527  
    GrottonRed is online now LFC Forums Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anubis View Post
    Many times when politicians dont want to change something, they just blame it on the Eu
    Yep...it's the get out of jail free card.
    Life President of TEPS...The Ellipsis Preservation Society.
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  8. #2528  
    dreams-come-true is online now First team regular
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    The only way to change the EU is from within. IF you dont like the way it is going, you can arugue the point in the EU Parliament and against the EU Commission. The Member States' ratification is also a given (I didn't suddenly produce a pdf-file with the EU Logo on it.) Being outside of the EU will certainly give you many "freedoms" from the EU but ... at a cost. Which many seem to want to pay. Fair enough.
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  9. #2529  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreams-come-true View Post
    The only way to change the EU is from within. IF you dont like the way it is going, you can arugue the point in the EU Parliament and against the EU Commission. The Member States' ratification is also a given (I didn't suddenly produce a pdf-file with the EU Logo on it.) Being outside of the EU will certainly give you many "freedoms" from the EU but ... at a cost. Which many seem to want to pay. Fair enough.
    No, you produced a PDF file which is completely unrelated to the point you're trying to make.

    Member states don't ratify EU law. Thecommission proposes law. Then the council (representing governments) and the parliament (representing constituents) pass the law, maybe with amendments, or reject it.
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  10. #2530  
    dreams-come-true is online now First team regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by dookar View Post
    No, you produced a PDF file which is completely unrelated to the point you're trying to make.

    Member states don't ratify EU law. Thecommission proposes law. Then the council (representing governments) and the parliament (representing constituents) pass the law, maybe with amendments, or reject it.
    The point was ratification of EU decisions in member states' parliaments. And has to do with the sovereignty question.

    I did not write this myself ...

    National ratification of EU international agreements – mixed agreements
    The European Union, having legal personality (Article 47 TEU), is a subject of international law
    and can negotiate and conclude international agreements within the scope of its competences
    (Article 5 TEU, Articles 2-4 TFEU).
    At EU level, the procedure for concluding IAs is set out in Article 218 TFEU; other articles may
    have specific provisions on the conclusion of IAs (e.g. Article 207 TFEU on the common
    commercial policy). Depending on the competences involved (EU exclusive competences or
    shared competences), the conclusion of EU IAs may or may not require ratification by Member
    States according to their national procedures. If an agreement falls under exclusive EU
    competence, the EU has the authority to negotiate and conclude the agreement, without any
    process of national ratification in Member States. When an agreement falls under shared or
    concurrent competences, the agreement is then considered ‘mixed‘ and needs to go through a
    two-stage ratification process: the EU and the Member States both need to ratify the agreement,
    with each Member State following its own national procedures. This two-stage ratification of
    mixed agreements gives more say to Member States,
    and even certain regions within them, but
    also makes the ratification process longer.
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  11. #2531  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreams-come-true View Post
    The point was ratification of EU decisions in member states' parliaments. And has to do with the sovereignty question.

    I did not write this myself ...
    Jesus Christ.

    You said

    Quote Originally Posted by dreams-come-true View Post
    Each member Government (Parliament) has to ratify any possible motion to do anything. So. No. The EU does not have primacy over individual governments without those governments agreeing on implementing or not.
    This is demonstrably false so I replied, eloquently and convincingly

    Quote Originally Posted by dookar View Post
    Nonsense
    You then produced a document concerning international Agreements ie those with third countries, not EU law which is supranational.
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  12. #2532  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreams-come-true View Post
    Please give an example of ... The reason to vote for brexit were indeed sovereignty and accountability of our government that had been falling away,
    - What exactly has been "falling away"? In terms of Sovereignty and Accountability?
    I've made an effort to answer your question. Before asking a follow up, how about you tell me what you feel are flaws in the EU and benefits of brexit?
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  13. #2533  
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    Still struggling to find any benefits, seriously what are they in real terms

    I don't buy into the sovereignty line at all personally, empowering this government further is like asking to be smacked in the mouth repeatedly
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  14. #2534  
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    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post

    I don't buy into the sovereignty line at all personally, empowering this government further is like asking to be smacked in the mouth repeatedly
    From the first thread on this subject
    I don’t think I can win over leftists to the Brexit cause. They keep saying “If we leave the EU, the Tories might do stuff I don’t like” – which roughly translates as “I don’t want to live in a democracy where the government responds to the views and wishes of the public”. It also translates as “I am happy to deprive others of the right to choose because my politics are superior”. There’s not really much I can say to that. Traditionally, people like that are wearing uniforms and we shoot them rather than engage in polite discourse. What worries me is that if these people get their way, eventually they will be wearing uniforms and we will have to shoot at them.
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  15. #2535  
    Yehez is online now Rating revolutionary
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    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    Still struggling to find any benefits, seriously what are they in real terms

    I don't buy into the sovereignty line at all personally, empowering this government further is like asking to be smacked in the mouth repeatedly
    What if a government you like takes over after this one? Do you still want them constricted by EU?

    And this question of "what does it benefit us" is exactly the reason I despise politics. All politics after all is about stealing from others, propaganda, and trying to get what you want over what others want.

    What benefits you might not benefit others. What benefits the UK, might not benefit the EU.
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  16. #2536  
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrottonRed View Post
    Accountability is pretty obvious.

    The standard response to government criticism, even under Blair was, We'd like to change, but EU (add which is convenient) law stops us from doing it effectively.

    Being out, removes that "get out" clause.

    Governments of whatever flavour, will now be totally accountable for their actions.

    Even Labour cannot blame Brexit...as they have backed it in principle.
    You're right of course.

    But did we really have to pay through the nose to remove what many knew was an excuse? And having done that, what are we going to do about the shape-shifting *****, that we couldn't have done previously? Vote them out for the next lot of shape-shifters?

    We'll improve our lives more by regulating political lobbying and funding (imo), than by remaining or exiting the EU.
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