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Thread: Norway - congratulations

  1. #61  
    aylesbyred is online now Boot Room insider
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiraclesArePossible View Post
    The fact that you're obviously saying that they earn enough because the men are by and large millionaires. Which isn't a counterargument to treating the women equally.
    I think the context is that men are paid significantly well and the reason for that is the money generated in the male game, I can't see how the same applies to the womens game as commendable as it is
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    Quote Originally Posted by aylesbyred View Post
    I think the context is that men are paid significantly well and the reason for that is the money generated in the male game, I can't see how the same applies to the womens game as commendable as it is
    Exactly this is my point. I think in Tennis its definitely in my view worthy of equal pay if not more actually. I find the female game more entertaining and the rallies seem to be longer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSoundLady View Post
    You're annoyed that female tennis players earn the same as men?

    Imagine how women must feel knowing that for the same jobs at the same level with the same education, they will earn 20% less than men. Imagine how non-whites must feel knowing that for the same jobs at the same level with the same education, they will earn 20% less than white people.

    With such outlandish and sickening injustices throughout our society in terms of salary, I'm surprised that tennis-payment gender-equality annoys anyone really.
    This is simply not true and I suspect you know this.

    Not every person, regardless of race or gender, works the exact same hours and the exact same job to the exact same level of skill. Once you take those factors into account, there is no wage gap. Simply because the Equality Act provides necessary protections.

    In addition, I find your singling out of white people to be insightful into possible prejudice, because as a whole Chinese and Indian Asian people are the highest earners of all ethnicities. Not domestic white people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankly-Mr-Shankly View Post
    This is simply not true and I suspect you know this.

    Not every person, regardless of race or gender, works the exact same hours and the exact same job to the exact same level of skill. Once you take those factors into account, there is no wage gap. Simply because the Equality Act provides necessary protections.

    In addition, I find your singling out of white people to be insightful into possible prejudice, because as a whole Chinese and Indian Asian people are the highest earners of all ethnicities. Not domestic white people.
    Correct. Any medium to large company does not pay its staff the same even if they are all white and female
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defo-skitso View Post
    Exactly this is my point. I think in Tennis its definitely in my view worthy of equal pay if not more actually. I find the female game more entertaining and the rallies seem to be longer.
    Yeah but in Tennis you are citing personal preference as to what you enjoy and everybody might not be the same, personally I only ever used to watch mens tennis as, contextually for me personally, it was more important.

    Its an interesting argument about prize money accross the sexes; if you think of the ongoing issues in the common workplace, a woman doing exactly the same job as a man, same hours, same days etc etc absolutely should be paid the same; if you apply that statement to tennis then it doesn't work. Of course in business models outside of public sector workers that is much more difficult.
    Last edited by aylesbyred; 9-10-17 at 15:23.
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    TheKnucklesOfAgger is online now Academy prospect
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSoundLady View Post
    You're annoyed that female tennis players earn the same as men?

    Imagine how women must feel knowing that for the same jobs at the same level with the same education, they will earn 20% less than men. Imagine how non-whites must feel knowing that for the same jobs at the same level with the same education, they will earn 20% less than white people.

    With such outlandish and sickening injustices throughout our society in terms of salary, I'm surprised that tennis-payment gender-equality annoys anyone really.
    Iím not saying those injustices donít exist. Maybe annoyed was the wrong word, Iím just talking about tennis in isolation. It depends how you want to view it. The women spend less time on court at Grand Slams and some other tournaments. The men can end up playing far longer on average, up to a third as many sets as the women if youíre reaching finals.

    Events where everyone plays 3 sets max, equal pay shouldnít really be of any contention, but unfortunately thereís also the issue of interest. For example, the Wimbledon menís final pulls in close to double the womenís final in terms of viewing figures. The same thought process can be applied to football.

    Itís not complicated, it also doesnít make it right, but if thereís just less demand for one product than another, itís harder to pay those workers as much even if itís agreed theyíre working as hard, theyíre not pulling in enough money to justify the same salaries. And as such we probably wonít see anything close to equal pay in football until those issues are addressed, with accessibility and coverage becoming as frequent and in your face as the menís game is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defo-skitso View Post
    Correct. Any medium to large company does not pay its staff the same even if they are all white and female
    Exactly, and if it the pay gap was being hidden, the simple test in a capitalist society focused on profit, is to see whether Men are not getting employed for being significantly more expensive than women.

    In addition, if you look at the figures between the sexes, under the Age of 30, you will see notice some startling findings of real gaps occurring in pay, education, physical and mental health and suicide rates, all in favour of women. Yet interestingly, despite this massive favour, after psychological studies, on average these young women are unhappier and have worse mental health on average than their mothers and grandmothers.

    It really does make for some interesting reading.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aylesbyred View Post
    Yeah but in Tennis you are citing personal preference as to what you enjoy and everybody might not be the same, personally I only ever used to watch mens tennis as, contextually for me personally, it was more important.

    Its an interesting argument about prize money accross the sexes; if you think of the ongoing issues in the common workplace, a woman doing exactly the same job as a man, same hours, same days etc etc absolutely should be paid the same; if you apply that statement to tennis then it doesn't work.
    Right but the difference between the sexes in tennis and football I think is astronomically different in terms of entertainment
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankly-Mr-Shankly View Post
    Exactly, and if it the pay gap was being hidden, the simple test in a capitalist society focused on profit, is to see whether Men are not getting employed for being significantly more expensive than women.

    In addition, if you look at the figures between the sexes, under the Age of 30, you will see notice some startling findings of real gaps occurring in pay, education, physical and mental health and suicide rates, all in favour of women. Yet interestingly, despite this massive favour, after psychological studies, on average these young women are unhappier and have worse mental health on average than their mothers and grandmothers.

    It really does make for some interesting reading.
    Its funny you mention this, not the same scenario but where I am we have been encouraged to put females up for promo etc. Isn't that in itself a little wrong (sexism wise) for men?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defo-skitso View Post
    Its funny you mention this, not the same scenario but where I am we have been encouraged to put females up for promo etc. Isn't that in itself a little wrong (sexism wise) for men?
    Unless the job role will inherently benefit from someone who is a woman (For example a football player playing in the Women's competition), then of course that scenario you mention would be plain and simple discrimination, because the requirement and condition has been set based on gender only, which naturally excludes the other, when the other gender would be just as suitable for the role on the basis of gender only.

    The correct line from management or the leadership involved, should always be 'We encourage the person who is the most suitable and skilled for this position', if you want to live in a fair meritocratic society. Expect for the obvious exceptions where in some jobs, men and women are naturally more suited to some defined roles, based on their biology.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankly-Mr-Shankly View Post
    Unless the job role will inherently benefit from someone who is a woman (For example a football player playing in the Women's competition), then of course that scenario you mention would be plain and simple discrimination, because the requirement and condition has been set based on gender only, which naturally excludes the other, when the other gender would be just as suitable for the role on the basis of gender only.

    The correct line from management or the leadership involved, should always be 'We encourage the person who is the most suitable and skilled for this position', if you want to live in a fair meritocratic society. Expect for the obvious exceptions where in some jobs, men and women are naturally more suited to some defined roles, based on their biology.
    True. We don't want no male nannies. That's just ridiculous.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fowi View Post
    True. We don't want no male nannies. That's just ridiculous.
    I wouldn't agree with that example.

    Mine was better.
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    MiraclesArePossible is online now Boot Room insider
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheKnucklesOfAgger View Post
    I’m not saying those injustices don’t exist. Maybe annoyed was the wrong word, I’m just talking about tennis in isolation. It depends how you want to view it. The women spend less time on court at Grand Slams and some other tournaments. The men can end up playing far longer on average, up to a third as many sets as the women if you’re reaching finals.

    Events where everyone plays 3 sets max, equal pay shouldn’t really be of any contention, but unfortunately there’s also the issue of interest. For example, the Wimbledon men’s final pulls in close to double the women’s final in terms of viewing figures. The same thought process can be applied to football.

    It’s not complicated, it also doesn’t make it right, but if there’s just less demand for one product than another, it’s harder to pay those workers as much even if it’s agreed they’re working as hard, they’re not pulling in enough money to justify the same salaries. And as such we probably won’t see anything close to equal pay in football until those issues are addressed, with accessibility and coverage becoming as frequent and in your face as the men’s game is.
    The issue you've highlighted is a self-perpetuating one. If you don't fund high salaries to attract more women players, your supply of female talent will stay low, as will the support, which will then choke funding. And on and on it goes. At some point we have to find a way to break that cycle. And I think this is a good way of doing it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiraclesArePossible View Post
    The issue you've highlighted is a self-perpetuating one. If you don't fund high salaries to attract more women players, your supply of female talent will stay low, as will the support, which will then choke funding. And on and on it goes. At some point we have to find a way to break that cycle. And I think this is a good way of doing it.
    The ends justify the means.

    Dangerous ideology.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiraclesArePossible View Post
    The issue you've highlighted is a self-perpetuating one. If you don't fund high salaries to attract more women players, your supply of female talent will stay low, as will the support, which will then choke funding. And on and on it goes. At some point we have to find a way to break that cycle. And I think this is a good way of doing it.
    This is wrong MAPS - "If you don't fund high salaries to attract more women players, your supply of female talent will stay low".

    So you are saying right now there is really good talent out there better than what is already there but they aren't playing football cause of salaries? Really?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defo-skitso View Post
    This is wrong MAPS - "If you don't fund high salaries to attract more women players, your supply of female talent will stay low".

    So you are saying right now there is really good talent out there better than what is already there but they aren't playing football cause of salaries? Really?
    One would also wonder how the men's game ever initially developed without funding.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankly-Mr-Shankly View Post
    One would also wonder how the men's game ever initially developed without funding.
    Waiting for...."The mens game only really started when Ambramovich joined Chelsea"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defo-skitso View Post
    This is wrong MAPS - "If you don't fund high salaries to attract more women players, your supply of female talent will stay low".

    So you are saying right now there is really good talent out there better than what is already there but they aren't playing football cause of salaries? Really?
    If you widen your pool of talent, you'll increase the number of good players in any given sport. And one way of widening the talent pool is to offer greater financial incentive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedInferno74 View Post
    As it should be.

    Hopefully other countries follow suit.
    Hahaha. Itís a joke right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankly-Mr-Shankly View Post
    The ends justify the means.

    Dangerous ideology.
    Even according to MAPS argument, if there is a sector of the population that needs developing in a certain industry, then the powers that be might give a certain percentage towards developing it (which they have done in football), they certainly wouldn't give them a rise to be the same as the highest paid in that particular sector!
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiraclesArePossible View Post
    If you widen your pool of talent, you'll increase the number of good players in any given sport. And one way of widening the talent pool is to offer greater financial incentive.
    I will be very shocked if there are females that are great players that would rather work in an office. Even with low wages, its probably right now better than your average job.

    Funding isn't the reason why the female game is not as good as the mens
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defo-skitso View Post
    I will be very shocked if there are females that are great players that would rather work in an office. Even with low wages, its probably right now better than your average job.

    Funding isn't the reason why the female game is not as good as the mens
    It's a significant reason. Especially because the women's game is still by and large an amateur one. If more and more women could play football and make a living from it then more women would presumably play it, thereby increasing the pool of talent available in the women's game.
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    Quote Originally Posted by raf_the_laf View Post
    Even according to MAPS argument, if there is a sector of the population that needs developing in a certain industry, then the powers that be might give a certain percentage towards developing it (which they have done in football), they certainly wouldn't give them a rise to be the same as the highest paid in that particular sector!
    I'm not claiming they would or should do. I'm arguing that not bringing the same amount of spectators isn't a good metric for what constitutes equivalent work. Especially given that that leads you into a vicious circle where funding helps improve the game, and invite more spectators, and so on. What the Norwegian FA have done is conclude that representing the national team is the same work whether or not you're a woman or a man. That seems fair to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiraclesArePossible View Post
    It's a significant reason. Especially because the women's game is still by and large an amateur one. If more and more women could play football and make a living from it then more women would presumably play it, thereby increasing the pool of talent available in the women's game.
    Have you checked what the average salary is of female football players? Its better than the average job. Your point doesn't stand. Seems weird to say funding is the reason why the womans game is not as good as mens.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defo-skitso View Post
    Have you checked what the average salary is of female football players? Its better than the average job. Your point doesn't stand. Seems weird to say funding is the reason why the womans game is not as good as mens.
    Can you show me your figures?

    Also if it seems odd, that's because it's not what I said. I said there's a vicious cycle between funding in the game and support for the game. The lack of funding leads to lower support, leads to fewer women taking up the sport, leads to even less support, and so on.
    Last edited by MiraclesArePossible; 9-10-17 at 18:13.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aylesbyred View Post
    I think the context is that men are paid significantly well and the reason for that is the money generated in the male game, I can't see how the same applies to the womens game as commendable as it is
    I'm not saying that we should start paying Toni Duggan 200k a week. I'm saying that 'they earn enough money' doesn't apply in the case of women footballers playing for their national sides, especially when you're quite obviously making that argument based on what men earn.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiraclesArePossible View Post
    Can you show me your figures?

    Also if it seems odd, that's because it's not what I said. I said there's a vicious cycle between funding in the game and support for the game. The lack of funding leads to lower support, leads to fewer women taking up the sport, leads to even less support, and so on.
    You just hit reverse gear all of a sudden. Same old MAPS!!! Blaming money yet again.

    Btw. nearly 60k
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    Female footballers being payed less than men is not down to sexism it is down to the market and the demand that exists. In the fashion world Male models earn typically far less than female models. If Norway are able to pay their female national team the same as the men's then fair play to them but it does not have to be about sex equality does it ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooler-70 View Post
    Female footballers being payed less than men is not down to sexism it is down to the market and the demand that exists. In the fashion world Male models earn typically far less than female models. If Norway are able to pay their female national team the same as the men's then fair play to them but it does not have to be about sex equality does it ?
    totally, great example re models!

    But if more money went into male models then it would be different
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defo-skitso View Post
    You just hit reverse gear all of a sudden. Same old MAPS!!! Blaming money yet again.

    Btw. nearly 60k
    I did no such thing. I explained to you what I'd said. In fact, I've used the term 'vicious circle' on multiple occasions to explain the point. If you go back you'll easily see that I've been making the same point throughout.

    Also I said show me your figures, not 'name a number'.
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