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Thread: The Left and Right

  1. #31  
    steviewonder87 is online now Academy prospect
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    Quote Originally Posted by dookar View Post
    I don't have one

    Seeing as it's you, I'll expand. The collection of posts I quoted seem to suggest their respective authors believe the main (sole?) difference between those of the left and those of the right is that the former 'care' and the latter do not.

    It's a common theme in conversations with those who are left leaning and it's utterly false, with a few exceptions.
    Perceived to be 'left' you mean. As many have stated, they don't label themselves 'left' or 'liberal'; that is the label placed upon them by appearing to 'care' by those who happen to disagree with their views. That was kind of the point of my post but obviously that part wasn't 'revealed' to you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by steviewonder87 View Post
    Perceived to be 'left' you mean. As many have stated, they don't label themselves 'left' or 'liberal'; that is the label placed upon them by appearing to 'care' by those who happen to disagree with their views. That was kind of the point of my post but obviously that part wasn't 'revealed' to you.
    Except that's ********
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    Quote Originally Posted by dookar View Post
    Except that's ********
    It is indeed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul143 View Post
    Especially as Left and Right has lost its original meaning in relation to comparing a completely free market (no regulations) and a state planned economy. Capitalist vs Communist.

    It takes no account of social policies so it is possible to be a right wing liberal or a left wing authoritarian.

    I think what is also a concern is that inter/intra-party debates are being stifled due to if someone falls outside the boundary of the viewpoints of the collective then they are a nazi/capitalist or communist pig/SJW/snowflake...

    In the UK it started with all the Shy Tories but it is starting to go wider and is becoming an internal issue. E.g. the current closeting of blairites within or the historic expulsion of certain socialists from the Labour party. Along with should a Liberal Democrat leader be atheist.

    It is not conducive to open debate especially when the only the in-group are able to highlight their beliefs so confirmation/belief bias including even the consideration of having a "red team" look at the policy. Along with for some policies there is no heads/tails or up/down answer.
    Yeah agree with that post - good one
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  5. #35  
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    I wouldn't say the right doesn't 'care' about other people. They simply think that they should take care of themselves and be 'self made'. they feel that they shouldn't pay for other peoples and the safety nets they deserve. They should 'earn' they place and their right in the world.
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    Quote Originally Posted by steviewonder87 View Post
    Perceived to be 'left' you mean. As many have stated, they don't label themselves 'left' or 'liberal'; that is the label placed upon them by appearing to 'care' by those who happen to disagree with their views. That was kind of the point of my post but obviously that part wasn't 'revealed' to you.
    Just to stir the pot - if you're on a football forum and support a global team like Liverpool then really you cannot be too "left" leaning at all given the inherent capitalism, greed and inequality in the game
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    Quote Originally Posted by lfcstlouis View Post
    I wouldn't say the right doesn't 'care' about other people. They simply think that they should take care of themselves and be 'self made'. they feel that they shouldn't pay for other peoples and the safety nets they deserve. They should 'earn' they place and their right in the world.
    Personally I'm not too against the "survival of the fittest", "get what you work for" ideology as a whole

    It's the fact that a substantive number of people who view it that way have been given a ridiculous head start in life by simply being born in the right family. Doesn't matter if they work hard or are talented they will always remain in a wealthy state which is ironic to me
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    Quote Originally Posted by lfcstlouis View Post
    I wouldn't say the right doesn't 'care' about other people. They simply think that they should take care of themselves and be 'self made'. they feel that they shouldn't pay for other peoples and the safety nets they deserve. They should 'earn' they place and their right in the world.
    You're going further into full on Libertarianism "taxation is theft" there. A bit like me saying the left believe Government, and only Government, can solve any, and all, problems.

    Sure, I'd rather give somebody a hand than a handout, doesn't mean I'm not prepared to contribute to that collectivised hand giving.
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  9. #39  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dookar View Post
    You're going further into full on Libertarianism "taxation is theft" there. A bit like me saying the left believe Government, and only Government, can solve any, and all, problems.

    Sure, I'd rather give somebody a hand than a handout, doesn't mean I'm not prepared to contribute to that collectivised hand giving.
    So you're a centrist? You don't want to help people specifically, but you're ok with giving 'some' help?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcdiggerman View Post
    Yeah agree with that post - good one
    It was good, except for the misleading dichotomy. Capitalism versus Communism is unfair as the latter is an extreme end of the spectrum where the former is a soft position, and its actually comments like that which show you how the argument has been distorted in society.

    Capitalism versus Socialism

    Corporatism versus Communism

    would be more accurate depictions, and what we have now is Corporatism - an extreme, reverse socialism whereby the state doesn't actually let the free market decide anything but engineers society to function for the few.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lfcstlouis View Post
    So you're a centrist? You don't want to help people specifically, but you're ok with giving 'some' help?
    Not sure how to label myself to be honest, I suppose I'm a small 'c' conservative with a dash of libertarianism. Though others would call me a nazi, so who knows

    I'm okay with helping people, I think that's a natural human disposition. I also think that natural disposition has been suppressed because decades of massive, maternal government has convinced us that it's their job to do the helping and to choose who gets the help and what form that help gets.

    I'm not a fan of an overbearing state
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcdiggerman View Post
    Personally I'm not too against the "survival of the fittest", "get what you work for" ideology as a whole

    It's the fact that a substantive number of people who view it that way have been given a ridiculous head start in life by simply being born in the right family. Doesn't matter if they work hard or are talented they will always remain in a wealthy state which is ironic to me
    The argument against this is that in some companies people are doing a lot more work than the people above them who are being paid more. As for survival of the fittest, this is true in certain aspects we should all be on a level playing field and the harder you work and apply yourself the further you go, but it doesn’t always happen. It is also a fact that in life some people need more help than others, not everyone thinks this way, they think we are all the same.

    Your second paragraph is spot on, many rich people who are born into richness look down on people as if they have done something miraculous other than being born.
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  13. #43  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dookar View Post
    Not sure how to label myself to be honest, I suppose I'm a small 'c' conservative with a dash of libertarianism. Though others would call me a nazi, so who knows

    I'm okay with helping people, I think that's a natural human disposition. I also think that natural disposition has been suppressed because decades of massive, maternal government has convinced us that it's their job to do the helping and to choose who gets the help and what form that help gets.

    I'm not a fan of an overbearing state
    Except that's ********
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    Quote Originally Posted by steviewonder87 View Post
    Except that's ********
    Not in the slightest. I've been called that in this very forum, though not for a few years.

    Listen, I appreciate you're trying your hardest, but you're not very good at whatever it is you're trying to do. Aim your sights a bit lower, mate
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  15. #45  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dookar View Post
    Not in the slightest. I've been called that in this very forum, though not for a few years.

    Listen, I appreciate you're trying your hardest, but you're not very good at whatever it is you're trying to do. Aim your sights a bit lower, mate
    But I've never been called a 'snowflake' or 'SJW', right. Guess it only works one way, mate.
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    We can talk about income inequality, state rights, and the role of government but one thing I can't look past is racism and xenophobia. I find it very hard to seek common ground with people who are at best indifferent towards prejudice or people who refuse to acknowledge it exists.
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    Quote Originally Posted by steviewonder87 View Post
    But I've never been called a 'snowflake' or 'SJW', right. Guess it only works one way, mate.
    I've no idea whether you have or not. Hence my not offering a view on that
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrottonRed View Post
    Extremes on either side are not good.

    Luckily in mainstream UK politics most parties are around the centre and move either way depending on the issues of the time.

    To me, I don't choose left and right...I choose decency, respect for all and empathy toward people who are really struggling with poverty, ill health, disability or old age.
    I agree with the extremist part are they tend to be so rigid that they become the anti-Christ of society.
    Any government must be able to educate its citizens in order to give each and everyone a chance in life to better themselves regardless of family circomstances and means. All citizens must have access to proper health care throughout their lives. - I lean strongly left in this regard.
    My right wing tendencies is that it will of course be capitalism who pays for this. Entrepreneurship must be supported and not fraught with tax to enable growth, even to the extend of low corporation taxes as each person removed from benefits is a tax payer and so its a win, win for society.........
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  19. #49  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dookar View Post
    Not sure how to label myself to be honest, I suppose I'm a small 'c' conservative with a dash of libertarianism. Though others would call me a nazi, so who knows

    I'm okay with helping people, I think that's a natural human disposition. I also think that natural disposition has been suppressed because decades of massive, maternal government has convinced us that it's their job to do the helping and to choose who gets the help and what form that help gets.

    I'm not a fan of an overbearing state
    I think because of the greed of man, it's the governments job to step in in certain areas to help regulate the profits and cruelty of corporations.

    If you believe that the white race is superior based on skin color, want less rights and want to end lives of other people based on their skin, and think 'Hitler had some good ideas', then those people who called you those very harsh names would have a point. If they called you that simply because you think people should pay less taxes and we should take away peoples health care and women's rights for birth control, then they would be wrong in labeling you that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lfcstlouis View Post
    I think because of the greed of man, it's the governments job to step in in certain areas to help regulate the profits and cruelty of corporations.

    If you believe that the white race is superior based on skin color, want less rights and want to end lives of other people based on their skin, and think 'Hitler had some good ideas', then those people who called you those very harsh names would have a point. If they called you that simply because you think people should pay less taxes and we should take away peoples health care and women's rights for birth control, then they would be wrong in labeling you that.
    No it's because I disapprove of mass immigration
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  21. #51  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dookar View Post
    No it's because I disapprove of mass immigration
    Depending on the reasons why, the means to stop, and the treatment of, there is a grey area on the words people have used to describe you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lfcstlouis View Post
    Depending on the reasons why, the means to stop, and the treatment of, there is a grey area on the words people have used to describe you.
    Well no. Even if we accept as the oft repeated falsehood that disapproval of mass immigration means disliking immigrants, that's a far stretch from subscribing to the nazi belief system
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  23. #53  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dookar View Post
    Well no. Even if we accept as the oft repeated falsehood that disapproval of mass immigration means disliking immigrants, that's a far stretch from subscribing to the nazi belief system
    I didn't say that you couldn't disapprove of immigration. People can argue for it all they want.

    I am saying the justifications you could use, the means to stop them (and also 'get them out' of your country) and how you treat the people already in your country that have immigrated, could lead to similar believes that Nazis held.
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    The spectrum is not what is was and is more complex that it initially was as society and electorates have evolved. for example:

    Socialism used to be against immigration (the world is different now)

    Gandhi was against socialism in the form of a large state as it would be a form of violence against the individual (the word has changed so much we can never go back to Gandhi socialism either).

    The point being even in simpler times, there were many branches of left and right, and in modern times this complexity has grown further. Caring has little to do with it either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dookar View Post
    No it's because I disapprove of mass immigration
    Why?
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    Quote Originally Posted by S_7 View Post
    The argument against this is that in some companies people are doing a lot more work than the people above them who are being paid more. As for survival of the fittest, this is true in certain aspects we should all be on a level playing field and the harder you work and apply yourself the further you go, but it doesn’t always happen. It is also a fact that in life some people need more help than others, not everyone thinks this way, they think we are all the same.

    Your second paragraph is spot on, many rich people who are born into richness look down on people as if they have done something miraculous other than being born.
    Yes I agree

    The premise is fine for me, but the way the system work and unconscious bias of hiring/ promoting in your own reflection etc ruins it

    Personally if every rich person had rights to family money / better education / inheritance taken off them at birth then I'd be quite for that ideology

    Would like to see Boris Johnson and his ilk talk about getting what you work for then
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anubis View Post
    Why?
    Cause he's a Nazi


    (just kidding!)
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    Quite funny how those on the left think. Especially those on this forum........a Liverpool fc forum.
    Apply their thinking to football and there would be no premier league. We would have a league of 92 teams......all getting the same money.no club would be allowed to become rich.
    The rest of the money would go to grass roots football.
    Players would be paid the same as somebody who works behind a bar.
    To be even more inclusive.........normal everyday fans would be given the chance to play for their team.
    Wouldn't it just be great.......every club being on an even footing with nobody allowed to get rich
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasonedtraveller View Post
    Quite funny how those on the left think. Especially those on this forum........a Liverpool fc forum.
    Apply their thinking to football and there would be no premier league. We would have a league of 92 teams......all getting the same money.no club would be allowed to become rich.
    The rest of the money would go to grass roots football.
    Players would be paid the same as somebody who works behind a bar.
    To be even more inclusive.........normal everyday fans would be given the chance to play for their team.
    Wouldn't it just be great.......every club being on an even footing with nobody allowed to get rich
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcdiggerman View Post
    Yes I agree

    The premise is fine for me, but the way the system work and unconscious bias of hiring/ promoting in your own reflection etc ruins it

    Personally if every rich person had rights to family money / better education / inheritance taken off them at birth then I'd be quite for that ideology

    Would like to see Boris Johnson and his ilk talk about getting what you work for then
    I didn't know Johnson came from big family money. Sure he wasn't poor but certainly not the 1% or whatever. I think he studied and won scholarship to Eton.

    He might just be a **** who mixed in those circles though that scholarship.
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