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Thread: Harvey Weinstein

  1. #31  
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    Quote Originally Posted by DantesShadow View Post
    If you are picking out only the comments you are interested in discussing rather than the whole, and rephrasing my point and your responses accordingly (skewed) then that is as near to the definition of creating a straw man argument that you can get. You then go on to repeat the same argument against your own constructed definition of what I was saying. All the while making an assumption of a supposed unheard of defence without evidence, while slating me for assuming they were in a position to do more taking all things considered.

    What will it take for you to think more could have been done? What if Jolie, for your favoured example, says she wasn't abused by weinstein?

    And again, not everybody who knew was a victim. What do you say to the victims of his abuse who have spoken out to say more should have been done and too many were silent?
    Not even remotely true or accurate. My response isn't skewed, is it? I'm not misrepresenting your view. What I've commented on are those views you have expressed. Those are of interest to me. Specifically criticisms of actresses who were subject to abuse that you claimed "should have done more", whatever that "more" might be. Youve named specific people and criticised them for it. You have no idea what Jolie was subjected to yet have expectations of her based on nothing more than the position she now holds. And on top of that, you believe youre entitled to criticise her for not meeting these standards. Your attempts to dismiss Paltrows reasoning are equality ridiculous. Youre questioning of her reasoning behind not coming forward sooner, and dismissing her view as "not being that alone" is transparent. You have absolutely no basis to criticise her for that. I haven't slated you in the slightest. What I said was you arent entitled to make demands of people who were abused purely because of the position they now have, that you have no right to criticise those victims of abuse who don't, won't or haven't yet spoken out about abuse they were subjected to, and that any criticisms you have are entirely invalid because they are ignorant. It is no wonder victim shaming is a very real and powerful thing.

    Your view was exactly what I said. You feel you have the right to criticise an actress who was subjected to abuse, the victim of abuse, for not doing more to stop someone doing it to someone else just because they have a position of influence, and you do this without having the faintest idea the reasoning behind that victims reluctance of speak out in public about it. And at the same time, dismiss an example of someone of wealth, influence and celebrity explaining why they didnt confront the issue as nonsense, even going so far as to somehow try to argue that they two instances are not related. He cited the fact that expectations of Jolie are based on her position of wealth, power, celebrity, and stature now. I cited an example of a man of wealth, influence, fame, etc reasoning why he didnt speak about sooner. And this happened to Crews last year. Not 20 years ago. You couldnt get a more clear cut and better example to support my rebuttal. The fact that someone has celebrity, wealthy, power or influence does not then determine that they can publicly confront someone who had sexually abused them. This is what you contend remember. That Jolie is in a position to be able to do exactly that. To confront someone who had abused them or someone else. I showed an example of a rich, successful, powerful (and physically powerful, no less), influential man who couldnt confront someone who had sexually assaulted them. Like I said, you couldnt get a better example to support my view that it isn't as easy as wringing your hands and demanding someone meet your arbitrarily determined expectations.

    The only correct thing youve said in this discourse is that there is nothing more to say on the matter.
    Last edited by FIOS; 11-10-17 at 19:09.
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  2. #32  
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    Quote Originally Posted by DantesShadow View Post
    What do you say to the victims of his abuse who have spoken out to say more should have been done and too many were silent?
    A quick reply to your edit:

    I'm entirely fine with that as long as that criticism does not extend to those people who were subjected to such abuse. Nobody has the right to criticise someone who had suffered phycological, physical, sexual abuse for not speaking out or trying to help someone else. There is no manual for dealing with abuse. No set of guidelines to follow. No rules of should or could. And there' certainly no rights or expectations to be levelled at these people from the likes of us who are looking at it from the outside.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIOS View Post
    Not even remotely true or accurate. My response isn't skewed, is it? I'm not misrepresenting your view. What I've commented on are those views you have expressed. Those are of interest to me. Specifically criticisms of actresses who were subject to abuse that you claimed "should have done more", whatever that "more" might be. Youve named specific people and criticised them for it. You have no idea what Jolie was subjected to yet have expectations of her based on nothing more than the position she now holds. And on top of that, you believe youre entitled to criticise her for not meeting these standards. Your attempts to dismiss Paltrows reasoning are equality ridiculous. Youre questioning of her reasoning behind not coming forward sooner, and dismissing her view as "not being that alone" is transparent. You have absolutely no basis to criticise her for that. I haven't slated you in the slightest. What I said was you arent entitled to make demands of people who were abused purely because of the position they now have, that you have no right to criticise those victims of abuse who don't, won't or haven't yet spoken out about abuse they were subjected to, and that any criticisms you have are entirely invalid because they are ignorant. It is no wonder victim shaming is a very real and powerful thing.

    Your view was exactly what I said. You feel you have the right to criticise an actress who was subjected to abuse, the victim of abuse, for not doing more to stop someone doing it to someone else just because they have a position of influence, and you do this without having the faintest idea the reasoning behind that victims reluctance of speak out in public about it. And at the same time, dismiss an example of someone of wealth, influence and celebrity explaining why they didnt confront the issue as nonsense, even going so far as to somehow try to argue that they two instances are not related. He cited the fact that expectations of Jolie are based on her position of wealth, power, celebrity, and stature now. I cited an example of a man of wealth, influence, fame, etc reasoning why he didnt speak about sooner. And this happened to Crews last year. Not 20 years ago. You couldnt get a more clear cut and better example to support my rebuttal. The fact that someone has celebrity, wealthy, power or influence does not then determine that they can publicly confront someone who had sexually abused them. This is what you contend remember. That Jolie is in a position to be able to do exactly that. To confront someone who had abused them or someone else. I showed an example of a rich, successful, powerful (and physically powerful, no less), influential man who couldnt confront someone who had sexually assaulted them. Like I said, you couldnt get a better example to support my view that it isn't as easy as wringing your hands and demanding someone meet your arbitrarily determined expectations.

    The only correct thing youve said in this discourse is that there is nothing more to say on the matter.
    Now now, don't get all het up. I had nothing more to say but your ridiculous monologue means i have to highlight a line that oozes from every one of your posts. To make it clear I give my view, and my view isn't not what you think it is or what you try to reinterpret it as.

    And trying to change the subject to victim shaming should be beneath you but seems not. You seem so preoccupied in wanting to state "victims are under no obligation to do anything" that you have lost sight as to not only what a victim is but also those that are not victims. You are equating anyone that knew about weinstein or was propositioned by weinstein as a victim of sexual abuse. Then claim it is understandable nothing was done (despite giving no reason why someone like Jolie couldn't do anything beyond "maybe she was a victim" - despite us not knowing that you state it as fact. It is this stigmatising and plausible deniability that lets people like weinstein and saville operate and feel like they can do what they like.
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    This has been widely known throughout hollywood and beyond for a long time. Won't be long till the news moves from Weinstein and onto Trump and the Republican party.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIOS View Post
    A quick reply to your edit:

    I'm entirely fine with that as long as that criticism does not extend to those people who were subjected to such abuse. Nobody has the right to criticise someone who had suffered phycological, physical, sexual abuse for not speaking out or trying to help someone else. There is no manual for dealing with abuse. No set of guidelines to follow. No rules of should or could. And there' certainly no rights or expectations to be levelled at these people from the likes of us who are looking at it from the outside.
    I agree with that, but that is not a point I am making. I am saying it is a wider silence than victims and it is fine to expect more from Jolie and many others from what we know at this time. At this point i consider neither Jolie nor Paltrow victims of sexual abuse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DantesShadow View Post
    I agree with that, but that is not a point I am making. I am saying it is a wider silence than victims and it is fine to expect more from Jolie and many others from what we know at this time. At this point i consider neither Jolie nor Paltrow victims of sexual abuse.
    What you consider them to be is irrelevant. Both have made accusations of sexual harassment. Both cite themselves as victims of abuse. That's just another ignorant comment youre making.

    It isn't fine for you to expect anything from people who endured abuse or harassment. Where on earth do you get this idea that you can make demands of people who endured harassment or abuse, that you somehow have the right to question why victims didn't do more. Do you not see how ridiculous you sound right now? Paltrow cited fear of repercussions. Asia Argento cited fear of repercussion. Cara Delevingne cited fear of repercussions. Mira Sorvino. Lucia Stoller. Rosanna Arquette. They all say the same thing. This is another example of why your criticisms of any of these women, Jolie included, is completely redundant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DantesShadow View Post
    Now now, don't get all het up. I had nothing more to say but your ridiculous monologue means i have to highlight a line that oozes from every one of your posts. To make it clear I give my view, and my view isn't not what you think it is or what you try to reinterpret it as.

    And trying to change the subject to victim shaming should be beneath you but seems not. You seem so preoccupied in wanting to state "victims are under no obligation to do anything" that you have lost sight as to not only what a victim is but also those that are not victims. You are equating anyone that knew about weinstein or was propositioned by weinstein as a victim of sexual abuse. Then claim it is understandable nothing was done (despite giving no reason why someone like Jolie couldn't do anything beyond "maybe she was a victim" - despite us not knowing that you state it as fact. It is this stigmatising and plausible deniability that lets people like weinstein and saville operate and feel like they can do what they like.
    Except, this is your view. I've neither misrepresented you nor construed your comments to mean anything other than what youve said.

    Why should citing victim shaming be beneath me? Questioning why they didnt do more, why they didnt speak out sooner, questioning "how alone she really was" is putting the focus on the victims. That's what victim shaming is. Youre trying to put responsibility, and by-proxy blame, on to these women.

    Your closing comments are completely incorrect too. At no point did I conflate issues and views to include anyone and everyone who might have known about this abuse. I was specific in my views and what I picked up on. Specific in my comments about Paltrow and Jolie, two women who absolutely have accused him of harassment and abuse. Those are victims of this abuse. Those and people who have suffered mental, physical, sexual harassment are specifically the people I have said are exempt from criticism. I couldnt have been more clear or explicit with that view, so the accusation that I equate anyone and everyone as a victim is false. It doesnt tally up in the slightest. Nor does your claim that I said it was understandable that nothing was done. That is just not even remotely close to a view I offered. I didnt say "maybe Jolie is a victim". I cited her as one. Because she told the New York Times she was one. I couldnt have been more clearer with my view.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIOS View Post
    What you consider them to be is irrelevant. Both have made accusations of sexual harassment. Both cite themselves as victims of abuse. That's just another ignorant comment youre making.

    It isn't fine for you to expect anything from people who endured abuse or harassment. Where on earth do you get this idea that you can make demands of people who endured harassment or abuse, that you somehow have the right to question why victims didn't do more. Do you not see how ridiculous you sound right now? Paltrow cited fear of repercussions. Asia Argento cited fear of repercussion. Cara Delevingne cited fear of repercussions. Mira Sorvino. Lucia Stoller. Rosanna Arquette. They all say the same thing. This is another example of why your criticisms of any of these women, Jolie included, is completely redundant.
    No they don't, they site themselves as victims of Harvey Weinstein. Neither he nor you has the power to label these women as sexually abused individuals. It is for them.

    This entire discussion is about you wanting to make out how 'in touch you are' while missing the whole point and doing a disservice to the moral obligations of society. Hint: It is not about YOU displaying your sensitivity incorrectly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DantesShadow View Post
    No they don't, they site themselves as victims of Harvey Weinstein. Neither he nor you has the power to label these women as sexually abused individuals. It is for them.

    This entire discussion is about you wanting to make out how 'in touch you are' while missing the whole point and doing a disservice to the moral obligations of society. Hint: It is not about YOU displaying your sensitivity incorrectly.
    Victims of abuse or harassment of Harvey Weinstein. That's the salient point you miss. And what on earth are you talking about when you say nobody has the power? If you have been subjected to harassment then you are a victim of harassment. It's staggeringly simple. It's the very definition. What youre trying to do is attach your own connotations on what it means to be a victim, and then trying to proclaim that they and only they are permitted to define what it means for them to be a victim. What a ridiculous counter point that is.

    Your last point is ludicrous. My point of contention was that you have no right to make judgements or expectations, or criticism of someone who has hasnt spoken out after they suffered abuse or harassment, that they didnt "do more". It has absolutely nothing to do with how I wish to be portrayed or how I appear. And that point remains. You don't have the right to criticise. You have no valid criticisms to make.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIOS View Post
    Victims of abuse or harassment of Harvey Weinstein. That's the salient point you miss. And what on earth are you talking about when you say nobody has the power? If you have been subjected to harassment then you are a victim of harassment. It's staggeringly simple. It's the very definition. What youre trying to do is attach your own connotations on what it means to be a victim, and then trying to proclaim that they and only they are permitted to define what it means for them to be a victim. What a ridiculous counter point that is.

    Your last point is ludicrous. My point of contention was that you have no right to make judgements or expectations, or criticism of someone who has hasnt spoken out after they suffered abuse or harassment, that they didnt "do more". It has absolutely nothing to do with how I wish to be portrayed or how I appear. And that point remains. You don't have the right to criticise. You have no valid criticisms to make.
    Again (and again) making up stuff I didn't say to give yourself an easy argue? What is staggering is that you keep defending the wall of silence. Bottom line, you throw around accusations calling people ignorant, unjustified etc etc, but you strike me as someone who went on a course on sensitivity training and misunderstood. You are a prime example of the saying "a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing."
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    This probably needs a different thread topic eh?

    I have to say, its remarkable that anyone feels in a position to judge how a victim of abuse or harassment should behave, and when they should feel free to saying something

    Often the whole dynamic is around power, with the victims being or feeling they have lost all power or ability to do anything. That's the beginning of the abuse, a major part that progresses into more physical abuse in some cases
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    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    This probably needs a different thread topic eh?

    I have to say, its remarkable that anyone feels in a position to judge how a victim of abuse or harassment should behave, and when they should feel free to saying something

    Often the whole dynamic is around power, with the victims being or feeling they have lost all power or ability to do anything. That's the beginning of the abuse, a major part that progresses into more physical abuse in some cases
    Nobody is disagreeing with that. But there appears a huge number of people who were aware and could have done something. As for victims, nobody is saying a victim of sexual abuse should be required to speak out.
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    All discussion in here please...leave the movie thread for...movies.
    Life President of TEPS...The Ellipsis Preservation Society.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DantesShadow View Post
    Nobody is disagreeing with that. But there appears a huge number of people who were aware and could have done something. As for victims, nobody is saying a victim of sexual abuse should be required to speak out.
    I guess that depends on who witnessed such acts or to what level they were aware & versus their own position.

    This is a very powerful individual in an industry built on power & influence, networks etc.

    There was the reporter who claims she was groped by him & he escalated things quickly in front of her...some are claiming she's a reporter not in the acting industry so should have said something....but again this is one female reporter going up against a industry giant with power & huge influence.

    We see it in football with child abuse, ditto religious organisations, the whole BBC in the 70's...accusations with Parliament.

    It's always around power & there are always questions of could it have been stopped, who was aware etc. The whole point is it's not easy to know what is happening & if it's happening, who & how to report it & whether individuals feel properly supported.

    Horribly complex cases very often
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    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    This probably needs a different thread topic eh?

    I have to say, its remarkable that anyone feels in a position to judge how a victim of abuse or harassment should behave, and when they should feel free to saying something

    Often the whole dynamic is around power, with the victims being or feeling they have lost all power or ability to do anything. That's the beginning of the abuse, a major part that progresses into more physical abuse in some cases
    Indeed so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DantesShadow View Post
    Again (and again) making up stuff I didn't say to give yourself an easy argue? What is staggering is that you keep defending the wall of silence. Bottom line, you throw around accusations calling people ignorant, unjustified etc etc, but you strike me as someone who went on a course on sensitivity training and misunderstood. You are a prime example of the saying "a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing."
    Where on earth have I "defended the wall of silence". I have spoken specifically about the victims of this harassment. At no point whatsoever have I disputed that people knew about this and didnt speak out. I even clarified that point for you. It's right there on the page. What I'm interested in disputing was your ignorant views on what Jolie could or should have done, or your views on "just how alone Paltrow was" because again they are entirely ignorant. You dont have the right to question her reasoning behind not reacting exactly how you think she should have reacted. You just dont get to make a judgement on that, and certainly not level any criticism at them. Now you can criticise those on the periphery, unconnected or only affected by-proxy because of that harassment but not those women it happened to. That's been the only point I'm really interested in disputing. And of course I'll label you ignorant for it. Because it's entirely ignorant of you to do so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IDREAMOFGINI View Post
    This has been widely known throughout hollywood and beyond for a long time. Won't be long till the news moves from Weinstein and onto Trump and the Republican party.
    It’s amazing how often stuff like this is said after things become public. If it was so widely known and beyond then why hasn’t something been done before ? I understand some people involved will of been scared to say something but I don’t believe there hasn’t been one single person over all the years who hasn’t said something
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrottonRed View Post
    All discussion in here please...leave the movie thread for...movies.
    What a novel idea. Quick somebody rubbish Goodfellas!

    I was on the hunt for a funny film last night on Netflix and spotted "The Night Before" a film starring Joseph Gordon-Levitt, Seth Rogen and Anthony Mackie about 3 childhood friends that have a Christmas ritual started after one of them loses his parents, a few years later fame and family get the way of the ritual and they decide that this is the last one. So far so depressing....but it is surprisingly funny and I'm surprised it completely passed me by. Not a great film by any stretch but funny enough and wrong enough (in places) to go on my must watch Christmas film schedule! 7/10.

    I could swear I didn't post this here!
    Last edited by Eloader; 12-10-17 at 13:06.
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    Itís not easy to speak out when it involves someone as powerful as this. Jolie or Paltrow are still way down the food chain compared to people like Weinstein. There silence should never be used against them.
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    I think that DS has a very valid point in regards who else may have known and didn't speak out.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCNvREKTnQc
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddes View Post
    It’s amazing how often stuff like this is said after things become public. If it was so widely known and beyond then why hasn’t something been done before ? I understand some people involved will of been scared to say something but I don’t believe there hasn’t been one single person over all the years who hasn’t said something
    This is what I touched upon above, its to what extent people knew or not, to what extent the abuser has power or presents that power and how convincing it is. Even witnesses or those in the know can feel fearful they'd be alone in stepping forward or ostracised for doing so. Some lack the courage in their convictions of what they know, hoping it will be someone else who steps forward instead of them. Others turn the other cheek coldly if they feel it doesn't effect them. Some will even take the side of the abuser

    Its a whole combination of factors
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    It amazes me that people are surprised by this sort of thing

    Given the natural order of things regarding greed/money/capitalism

    Exploitation is the breeding ground and yet people are still surprised
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    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    This probably needs a different thread topic eh?

    I have to say, its remarkable that anyone feels in a position to judge how a victim of abuse or harassment should behave, and when they should feel free to saying something

    Often the whole dynamic is around power, with the victims being or feeling they have lost all power or ability to do anything. That's the beginning of the abuse, a major part that progresses into more physical abuse in some cases
    Yeah spot on. Whether anybody feels any of these women are not victims is not for them to say. Regardless of fame and money there are serious allegations here and yes it is about power as most sexual assaults are.

    Just find it quite surprising just how much media attention has been given to this story however.
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    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    This is what I touched upon above, its to what extent people knew or not, to what extent the abuser has power or presents that power and how convincing it is. Even witnesses or those in the know can feel fearful they'd be alone in stepping forward or ostracised for doing so. Some lack the courage in their convictions of what they know, hoping it will be someone else who steps forward instead of them. Others turn the other cheek coldly if they feel it doesn't effect them. Some will even take the side of the abuser

    Its a whole combination of factors
    Seems that Seth MacFarlane knew something...as did the audience https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCNvREKTnQc

    Reminds me of this about Saville

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rjy8oLVOvi4

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esKnWAIgpLY
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhoscoch View Post
    I think that DS has a very valid point in regards who else may have known and didn't speak out.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCNvREKTnQc
    I think it was widespread knowledge. That's why I said I'd have no problem with criticism of those unaffected, or rather subjected to it.

    I think there's also very much a culture of " well that's what goes on in Hollywood". Like it's the norm and has been that way for decades. Which is probably absolutely true. When you see clips like this, and like the references in 30 Rock, that it's become a punchline and running joke, you see just how accepted that culture is.

    You also have to hear these actresses talk about their experiences. Some of them question whether they had misconstrued situations, questioning whether it actually happened, or questioning whether what happened actually constituted abuse or harassment.
    Last edited by FIOS; 12-10-17 at 12:39.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIOS View Post
    I think it was widespread knowledge. That's why I said I'd have no problem with criticism of those unaffected, or rather subjected to it.

    I think there's also very much a culture of " well that's what goes on in Hollywood".

    You also have to hear these actresses talk about their experiences. Some of them question whether they had misconstrued situations, questioning whether it actually happened, or questioning whether what happened actually constituted abuse or harassment.
    Agree with your sentiments entirely, just trying to put perspective onto what DS was perhaps alluding to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mysteron View Post
    It amazes me that people are surprised by this sort of thing

    Given the natural order of things regarding greed/money/capitalism

    Exploitation is the breeding ground and yet people are still surprised
    I don't think surprise is the issue really, but once something like this is revealed, people can't sit around apathetic doing nothing can they?

    Quote Originally Posted by ghyllred View Post
    Yeah spot on. Whether anybody feels any of these women are not victims is not for them to say. Regardless of fame and money there are serious allegations here and yes it is about power as most sexual assaults are.

    Just find it quite surprising just how much media attention has been given to this story however.
    Its clearly rife in a great many prominent industries or organisations sadly, once power is involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhoscoch View Post
    Seems that Seth MacFarlane knew something...as did the audience https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCNvREKTnQc

    Reminds me of this about Saville

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rjy8oLVOvi4

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esKnWAIgpLY
    And I imagine some people do talk, its like we're ruling out nobody reported a thing and just stood by, but I bet you there are some who reported it or tried to raise it and suffered the consequence as a result or perhaps in some cases were too easily cowed

    I know in religious circles for instance and close knit religious societies in particular, those that have spoken out about incidents are turned into the enemy very quickly and have their life and dignity stripped from them.

    For some it becomes quickly a choice between retaining their current life, or doing the morally right thing and losing it all which could include even family, friends and a job.
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    I think there is also the argument of the extent the rich and influential can go to shut people up and close down those rumours. According to the NYT, he reached 8 settlements for accusations of sexual harassment or unwanted physical contact. That's what they have record of.

    Just look how Lance Armstrong was able to shut down each and every accusation, to the point of ruining careers and lives if you spoke out again him, for as long as he did. It took years to finally expose the truth.

    It's just not so easy as to say people should have done more when these people have wealth, power and authority protecting them.
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  29. #59  
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    Quote Originally Posted by welshypool View Post
    I don't think surprise is the issue really, but once something like this is revealed, people can't sit around apathetic doing nothing can they?
    Just likes our clubs errors and mistakes - you keep doing it the same way, you are gonna keep getting the same results....

    If they want exploitation/abuse and all those other terrible things to stop, then they need to find another way.....
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  30. #60  
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeemI View Post
    It’s not easy to speak out when it involves someone as powerful as this. Jolie or Paltrow are still way down the food chain compared to people like Weinstein. There silence should never be used against them.
    Sure, but for many who knew about it, and for those that were sexually harassed (but not sexually abused), this isn't a case of a boss sexually harrassed you or someone you know, but speaking out could have affected your career chances, the is a case of remaining silent knowing sexual crimes were taking place against women routinely. Even were they to stay quiet to preserve their career, when they too amass power on a huge scale yet do nothing we are allowed to be disappointed in them.

    I would like to see criminal prosecutions for every case of sexual assault he might have committed and civil prosecutions for every case of sexual harassment he might have committed.
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