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Thread: Suso Discussion Thread

  1. #61  
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    Quote Originally Posted by WinterPoolStark View Post
    Was he really? I think people are getting a little carried away with his ‘upturn’ at Milan. That could be down to the manager and his tactics? I hear Borini is doing very well in that team too, do we need a Fabio Borini thread as well?
    I'd say so, yes. He was one of a relatively small number of players to come through our Academy, and then have at least a taste of first team action, who I really thought had a chance of making it, and certainly at the least looked like being a Premier League (top flight) footballer. We don't make too many of them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by agb1037 View Post
    Don't know why the sudden interest in Suso. The club deemed him not good enough, and I agree with that. How many young players do some people expect to keep on the books? He certainly wouldn't be any nearer playing now for us than he was then.
    Exactly.And there is no reason he would come here to sit on the bench.Italian league is perfect for him.
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    Mouldiogs is online now Wants a little line under his title
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    This is a bit like can leaving for free we got Matip for nothing Milner for nothing, you win some and you lose some.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ***Stuzzza*** View Post
    I'd say so, yes. He was one of a relatively small number of players to come through our Academy, and then have at least a taste of first team action, who I really thought had a chance of making it, and certainly at the least looked like being a Premier League (top flight) footballer. We don't make too many of them.
    He hardly came through the academy, we bought him in as a 17 year old. Just the way I wouldn’t say Sterling came through our academy, even though he was a little younger when we got him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WinterPoolStark View Post
    He hardly came through the academy, we bought him in as a 17 year old. Just the way I wouldn’t say Sterling came through our academy, even though he was a little younger when we got him.
    Ok, not that it's relevant to how good he was though.

    Personally, if they arrive without first team experience and play for our U18's before the U21/23's, and if UEFA therefore recognise them as club trained, I consider that while they may not have joined our Academy from day 1, it is ours that they graduate from.

    Just as in academic education you might leave school at 16 and go on to graduate from a 6th form college. Where you take your exams - first team auditions - is more significant than which primary school you attended.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ***Stuzzza*** View Post
    Ok, not that it's relevant to how good he was though.

    Personally, if they arrive without first team experience and play for our U18's before the U21/23's, and if UEFA therefore recognise them as club trained, I consider that while they may not have joined our Academy from day 1, it is ours that they graduate from.

    Just as in academic education you might leave school at 16 and go on to graduate from a 6th form college. Where you take your exams - first team auditions - is more significant than which primary school you attended.
    More like, I spent 5 years at Secondary School A then did my GCSEs at School B. I actually learned everything at School A yet School B gets the credit for my results.

    Compared to Suso’s competition here, he just wasn’t good enough
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    WilbertoSilva is online now First team regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by WinterPoolStark View Post
    Was he really? I think people are getting a little carried away with his ‘upturn’ at Milan. That could be down to the manager and his tactics? I hear Borini is doing very well in that team too, do we need a Fabio Borini thread as well?
    He's been Milan's best player the last season and a half. Easily, too. He'll move on at the end of the season when they fail to get in the CL and need to sell, and I expect it to be to a very good club.

    We let a very good young player go who has progressed into a very good first team player. One in the loss column for us.

    Borini is playing RWB or LWB, and he isn't 'doing very well' at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WilbertoSilva View Post
    He's been Milan's best player the last season and a half. Easily, too. He'll move on at the end of the season when they fail to get in the CL and need to sell, and I expect it to be to a very good club.

    We let a very good young player go who has progressed into a very good first team player. One in the loss column for us.

    Borini is playing RWB or LWB, and he isn't 'doing very well' at all.
    We did offer him a contract though, didn't we? It's not like we just released him, or put him up for sale, we just couldn't convince him to stay...on the terms we were willing to offer.
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    WilbertoSilva is online now First team regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by ***Stuzzza*** View Post
    We did offer him a contract though, didn't we? It's not like we just released him, or put him up for sale, we just couldn't convince him to stay...on the terms we were willing to offer.
    Yeah, lack of opportunities was the big issue, I believe. Was over at the Milan - Juve game a couple of weeks ago, they *********** love Suso there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WilbertoSilva View Post
    Yeah, lack of opportunities was the big issue, I believe. Was over at the Milan - Juve game a couple of weeks ago, they *********** love Suso there.
    It was a shame imo.

    Obviously don't know exactly what happened that summer but I always believed that it was the contract standoff that saw him get no game time at all in the first half of that season before he left in January. I find it hard to believe he had nothing to offer us then.

    Funny in a way to think that we could have had a front 3 of Mane-Suarez-Coutinho, with a more or less mirror image backup of Suso-Firmino-Sterling. Obviously some had to leave for others to come in, and we'd need to be a much better team to keep players like that happy being backups but...at least quite interesting to note how similar the lineups are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ***Stuzzza*** View Post
    We did offer him a contract though, didn't we? It's not like we just released him, or put him up for sale, we just couldn't convince him to stay...on the terms we were willing to offer.
    I was a little surprised when his initial 'long term' contract extension turned out to be something like two and a half/ three years or something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WinterPoolStark View Post
    Was he really? I think people are getting a little carried away with his ‘upturn’ at Milan. That could be down to the manager and his tactics? I hear Borini is doing very well in that team too, do we need a Fabio Borini thread as well?
    I believe he was, absolutely. And I don't see what Borini has to do with it when we're discussing Suso. Seems to be a lot of "Move along, nothing to see here' from certain people. Heaven forfend we discuss one that got away, lest it be taken as 'negativity'...
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    GrottonRed is online now LFC Forums Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Topper- View Post
    I believe he was, absolutely. And I don't see what Borini has to do with it when we're discussing Suso. Seems to be a lot of "Move along, nothing to see here' from certain people. Heaven forfend we discuss one that got away, lest it be taken as 'negativity'...
    If a player refuses to sign a contract and leaves the club, in no way can that player be described as one who got away.

    If we sell a player because we don't want him anymore...then that may be the case.

    But when we get a fee for a player who was going walk for nothing 6 months later...that is good business...nothing else.
    Life President of TEPS...The Ellipsis Preservation Society.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrottonRed View Post
    If a player refuses to sign a contract and leaves the club, in no way can that player be described as one who got away.

    If we sell a player because we don't want him anymore...then that may be the case.

    But when we get a fee for a player who was going walk for nothing 6 months later...that is good business...nothing else.
    Exactly.

    It's all about character and mentality. Suso was not one that 'got away'. He wasn't prepared to fight for a place like the others, he got above his station and demanded a place. You have yo put in the hard graft and earn places in the first 11, no player has a divine right to a place. He refused to sign a new contract because he wasn't prepared to fight. That says more about the player than the club. There are other examples such as Ibe and Sinclair that did similar.

    Those that are blaming the club need to realise that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kloppsstars View Post
    Exactly.

    It's all about character and mentality. Suso was not one that 'got away'. He wasn't prepared to fight for a place like the others, he got above his station and demanded a place. You have yo put in the hard graft and earn places in the first 11, no player has a divine right to a place. He refused to sign a new contract because he wasn't prepared to fight. That says more about the player than the club. There are other examples such as Ibe and Sinclair that did similar.

    Those that are blaming the club need to realise that.
    Agree.It's wrong to blame the club for letting him go when he himself decided not to sign the new deal.It was his decision to leave and that's it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anil_Y2j View Post
    Agree.It's wrong to blame the club for letting him go when he himself decided not to sign the new deal.It was his decision to leave and that's it.
    Exactly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anil_Y2j View Post
    Agree.It's wrong to blame the club for letting him go when he himself decided not to sign the new deal.It was his decision to leave and that's it.

    I never noticed many people complaining that we let a good youngster go at the time.
    Last edited by GrottonRed; 11-11-17 at 20:09.
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    I'm surprised a young foreign lad who didn't want to stay at the Club is getting so much attention these days. What's it all about? Has given a press conference saying he wants to come back?
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    Mouldiogs is online now Wants a little line under his title
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    Quote Originally Posted by Home_and_Away View Post
    I'm surprised a young foreign lad who didn't want to stay at the Club is getting so much attention these days. What's it all about? Has given a press conference saying he wants to come back?
    I suppose it's a excuse to have a moan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mouldiogs View Post
    I suppose it's a excuse to have a moan.
    Well its international break after all.What else can be better than this.
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    At least we got a few quid for him.
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    WilbertoSilva is online now First team regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by agb1037 View Post
    I never noticed many people complaining that we let a good youngster go at the time.
    Plenty did. Wasn't difficult to realise we were losing a player with a lot of potential.

    And he can't be described as one that got away just because he wanted to leave? What? He still 'got away', didn't he? Utter nonsense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WilbertoSilva View Post
    Plenty did. Wasn't difficult to realise we were losing a player with a lot of potential.

    And he can't be described as one that got away just because he wanted to leave? What? He still 'got away', didn't he? Utter nonsense.
    Whatever.
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    MacFoley'1975 is online now First team regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by agb1037 View Post
    Whatever.
    Great debate!
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    Quote Originally Posted by WilbertoSilva View Post
    Plenty did. Wasn't difficult to realise we were losing a player with a lot of potential.

    And he can't be described as one that got away just because he wanted to leave? What? He still 'got away', didn't he? Utter nonsense.
    Plenty of players have potential, but the manager is judged on results and performance so not too surprising some young players don't get a look in ahead of multimillion pound signings.

    Top talent will break through, late(r) developing talent is much harder and whilst it is a little better than loaning them down levels, playing them in cups doesn't help too much because you've no assurance of progress and games tend to be 3-4 weeks apart (replays excepted)



    Can we do anything more than guess how much control the managers have, or say if you prefer, in which younger players stay and which go...? We've kept Ward here and that might not be the best for him or for us, other players leave much younger and a lot of them don't add up to regrets they left. Of course there'll be the odd one or two you see do well elsewhere but them's the breaks, win some and lose some.

    Might simply be destiny, had they stayed here who can say for sure they would be the same (quality of) player they are now....?!?!? I think I read yesterday earlier in a thread someone make the valid point about someone doing X years at school studying GCSEs and then moving to another, taking the exams and the school takes the credit for the results. I would add to or qualify this by saying the talent is in the player, but opportunity may have a lot of bearing and if Suso for example had stayed here his talent would remain unquestionable, but his opportunities elsewhere that he probably wouldn't have got here might be why he is where he is (in terms of level reached, not location)

    Should we have just played him? Hard to justify including a young talent over a player better if only because of his stage of development, especially with no guarantee it would pay off. I think too many are showing hindsight, yes some might have not wanted him to leave, but it was only at Genoa in 15/16 his talent began to become converted.

    And as I think I said previously about this, maybe he would have succeeded in England but there's no guarantee of it just because he's doing very well in Italy (or words to that effect) Different league funnily enough, and why players like Aspas and Alberto amongst others may have all the talent in the world and be doomed not to succeed in this league. Wrong to sign them? Probably not. Wrong to criticise them excessively as wastes of money? Perhaps a little, we only paid smallish sums and they didn't pay off.



    One thing everyone needs to bear in mind is this is reality not CM or some other football game, contracts and destinies of players aren't quite as easy or black and white as they aren't governed by a game engine.
    People will believe what they want to believe
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrottonRed View Post
    If a player refuses to sign a contract and leaves the club, in no way can that player be described as one who got away.

    If we sell a player because we don't want him anymore...then that may be the case.

    But when we get a fee for a player who was going walk for nothing 6 months later...that is good business...nothing else.
    Why not?

    If he was being difficult (which was rumoured) then you don't have much choice. If it was the contract or the inability to give players the opportunity to flourish then you can use whatever terminology you like but it's the loss of a talent for a relative pittance. Frustrating when the mission statement was to build a young, attacking side and you lose key pieces over contract issues.
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Topper- View Post
    Why not?

    If he was being difficult (which was rumoured) then you don't have much choice. If it was the contract or the inability to give players the opportunity to flourish then you can use whatever terminology you like but it's the loss of a talent for a relative pittance. Frustrating when the mission statement was to build a young, attacking side and you lose key pieces over contract issues.
    It's not just about talent. It's also about character and attitude, if young players aren't prepared to battle and scrap and prove they are good enough, then it's best to get rid. We've seen that with not just Suso. We saw that with Sinclair and Ibe, both got complacent.

    I think the last few general comments are attacking the club, which is wrong. It's the players themselves that need to be criticised. They weren't prepared to fight and therefore left and that is the case in point. Some people would rather moan than look at the bigger picture.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kloppsstars View Post
    It's not just about talent. It's also about character and attitude, if young players aren't prepared to battle and scrap and prove they are good enough, then it's best to get rid. We've seen that with not just Suso. We saw that with Sinclair and Ibe, both got complacent.

    I think the last few general comments are attacking the club, which is wrong. It's the players themselves that need to be criticised. They weren't prepared to fight and therefore left and that is the case in point. Some people would rather moan than look at the bigger picture.
    And some people take every thread, spin it into the usual 'positivity v negativity' bull **** and try to stifle discussion with this pathetic 'moaning' nonsense.

    How do you know he wasn't prepared to fight? You have first hand experience of dealing with him? Bigger picture? What's that then? Talented young players leaving for buttons? No clear development plan to get this talent into the side? Poor negotiating on contracts?
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    WilbertoSilva is online now First team regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Topper- View Post
    And some people take every thread, spin it into the usual 'positivity v negativity' bull **** and try to stifle discussion with this pathetic 'moaning' nonsense.

    How do you know he wasn't prepared to fight? You have first hand experience of dealing with him? Bigger picture? What's that then? Talented young players leaving for buttons? No clear development plan to get this talent into the side? Poor negotiating on contracts?
    I have very little confidence in us bringing through younger players now, to be honest. We seem more than happy to just keep buying in their positions, rather than give them chances. I expect the likes of Woodburn, Wilson and others to trumble along for a few years then move on. Hopefully I'm wrong, though.

    People talk about Alli and how we missed out on him, but does anybody believe he'd have turned out as good here as he did at Spurs? He went straight into their first team, whereas I guarantee he'd have been in our u23s with various loans for a few seasons. Regardless of how and why Suso left, he's still a talented young player who felt the need to leave because he wasn't going to get enough chances here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Topper- View Post
    And some people take every thread, spin it into the usual 'positivity v negativity' bull **** and try to stifle discussion with this pathetic 'moaning' nonsense.

    How do you know he wasn't prepared to fight? You have first hand experience of dealing with him? Bigger picture? What's that then? Talented young players leaving for buttons? No clear development plan to get this talent into the side? Poor negotiating on contracts?
    If he was prepared to fight for a place, he would have signed a new contract. There was reports that Suso told Rodgers that he would only sign a new contract if he was guaranteed a start. Young players have no justification to make such demands. They are required to fight for a place, just like all the others. Therefore I blame the player for having a poor attitude, it's not the club's fault for a player having a poor attitude.

    It's all about attitude, not just talent. I read a piece in the Echo and Robertson was told to follow Alberto Moreno's example and fight for a place. Moreno was left out last season and Klopp praised both his application and attitude. Moreno earned his place for the above, and Robertson must do likewise.
    Last edited by Kloppsstars; 12-11-17 at 14:31.
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