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Thread: Are we stronger or weaker right now?

  1. #1 Default Are we stronger or weaker right now? 
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    Credit to aGothAndaJock in the posh seats for this thread, I noticed it last night when digging around to get a feel for views on Coutinho leaving.

    Anyway, it’s a simple concept, nothing to do with who we should buy, who we need, who would or wouldn’t join us, etc., etc. Obviously we’d be stronger had we kept him and brought in VVD, but considering what we gain from one, and lose from the other -

    Are we stronger or weaker as it stands right now having brought in VVD and sold Coutinho?
    'Okey doke, we'll leave it there so'
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  2. #2  
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    Stronger at the back, weaker in the middle/up top........
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    I'd say weaker. Coutinho's dribbling and passes were assets to us against parked buses. Now, when teams sit deep, Salah and Mane have nowhere to run into.
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  4. #4  
    steviewonder87 is online now Academy prospect
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedHed2 View Post
    Credit to aGothAndaJock in the posh seats for this thread, I noticed it last night when digging around to get a feel for views on Coutinho leaving.

    Anyway, it’s a simple concept, nothing to do with who we should buy, who we need, who would or wouldn’t join us, etc., etc. Obviously we’d be stronger had we kept him and brought in VVD, but considering what we gain from one, and lose from the other -

    Are we stronger or weaker as it stands right now having brought in VVD and sold Coutinho?
    Stronger defensively, weaker offensively

    /thread

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  5. #5  
    fredthecamel is online now First team regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedHed2 View Post
    Credit to aGothAndaJock in the posh seats for this thread, I noticed it last night when digging around to get a feel for views on Coutinho leaving.

    Anyway, it’s a simple concept, nothing to do with who we should buy, who we need, who would or wouldn’t join us, etc., etc. Obviously we’d be stronger had we kept him and brought in VVD, but considering what we gain from one, and lose from the other -

    Are we stronger or weaker as it stands right now having brought in VVD and sold Coutinho?
    better to compare it to a year ago

    last jan best 11

    migs
    clyne lovren matip milner
    hendo
    gini lallana
    mane firmino coutinho

    this jan

    karius
    gomez vvd matip robertson
    emre
    gini ox/lallana
    salah firmino mane

    i think the current 11 is stronger

    the hendo gini lallana midfield was very good for us last year to xmas maybe it can be again from now until summer
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    no creativity in midfield.i dont know who will asist attacker. lallana is solution for short time
    its good to have defender,but we also need dm to protect defence
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  7. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by uselessbaba View Post
    Stronger at the back, weaker in the middle/up top........
    Quote Originally Posted by steviewonder87 View Post
    Stronger defensively, weaker offensively

    /thread

    'Okey doke, we'll leave it there so'
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  8. #8  
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    Stronger

    There is no denying losing a player like Phil is a blow

    but our defence was abysmal, our attack wasn't

    our attack without Phil is weakend as he really can unlock teams, but we still have a good attack with plenty of goals in it

    Salah, Mane, Firmino, Lallana, Ox, Sturridge
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  9. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredthecamel View Post
    better to compare it to a year ago

    last jan best 11

    migs
    clyne lovren matip milner
    hendo
    gini lallana
    mane firmino coutinho

    this jan

    karius
    gomez vvd matip robertson
    emre
    gini ox/lallana
    salah firmino mane

    i think the current 11 is stronger

    the hendo gini lallana midfield was very good for us last year to xmas maybe it can be again from now until summer
    It’s not necessarily a better comparison, Fred, so much as it’s a different one.

    What’s your view on the thread topic comparison?
    'Okey doke, we'll leave it there so'
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLiverLife View Post
    Stronger

    There is no denying losing a player like Phil is a blow

    but our defence was abysmal, our attack wasn't

    our attack without Phil is weakend as he really can unlock teams, but we still have a good attack with plenty of goals in it

    Salah, Mane, Firmino, Lallana, Ox, Sturridge
    That’s my sense too, even though it’s a trickier question than I’d initially thought.
    'Okey doke, we'll leave it there so'
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  11. #11  
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    weaker..

    last week we had a world class playmaker in the squad

    this week we dont have ANY playmaker in the squad
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  12. #12  
    fredthecamel is online now First team regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedHed2 View Post
    It’s not necessarily a better comparison, Fred, so much as it’s a different one.

    What’s your view on the thread topic comparison?
    i think big defensive worldie in who will make a difference

    huge wordlie out from midfield who will be a huge loss or will he?

    llast season up to xmas our attack was

    hendo
    gini lallana
    mane firmino phil

    we were tonking everyone and then mane and phil got injured

    right now we have

    emre
    gini lallana
    mane firmino salah

    as our front six and the same problem should injuries befall mane and salah

    but we have virgil

    i d say currently we are slightly weakened but more through disappointment than on field abilty

    the gap between van dijk and our other centre backs in terms of quality is easily equal to the gap between phil and lallana or oxlade

    i think provided virgil carries on like he did v everton i think it will be roughly the same in terms of overall strength having lost and not yet replaced phil


    if salah and mane stay fit we get top 4 comfortably.

    i think we are strong and that van dijks addition will half our set piece goalsconceeded tally whilst adding a few at the other end against stubborn defenses.
    we will struggle for a few weeks mainly through the media and commentators keep mentioning missing coutinho blah blah but ultimately i think we will emerge stronger if the two wide men stay fit.

    we re almost in the exact same situation as last year now albeit with a slightly stronger defensive unit. if mane and salah stay fit we make top four no problemo. if not we struggle and scrape and scrap and fight and prob miss out and finish fifth
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  13. #13  
    fredthecamel is online now First team regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedHed2 View Post
    That’s my sense too, even though it’s a trickier question than I’d initially thought.
    it is its hard to weigh p what virgil might potentially bring against what losing coutinho will take away from the team

    right now its disappointment. make a huge signing looks like things are flying then sell your bestie.

    i think we might see more 2-1 2-0 1-0 3-1 type wins than 5-0 thrashings as has been the case in the last 3 games. three hard fought battles of wins

    imagine lallana and ox in tandem nicking the ball high up , both have shows excellent proficiency at it, add firminos workrate up there and it could work.

    i m sure we ll sturggle to create as much offensively without phil but maybe others will assume more responsibilty. gini s been annymous , oxlade is improving , lallana is fit aagain

    we still have last seasons best midfield to pick albeit with emre for hendo

    there are a lot of potential coutinho replacements out there oddly

    fekir goretzka mahrez lemar the guy at psg brandt pulisic the guy at napoli

    it would arguably be harder to replace virgil assuming he will be a towering colussus than to replace phil
    Last edited by fredthecamel; 8-1-18 at 12:12.
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    Quote Originally Posted by uselessbaba View Post
    Stronger at the back, weaker in the middle/up top........
    Right now this.But we'll have the clear picture by the end of Jan.And if we do get Lemar and Alisson then the team will much more stronger than it was with Phil.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredthecamel View Post
    i think big defensive worldie in who will make a difference

    huge wordlie out from midfield who will be a huge loss or will he?

    llast season up to xmas our attack was

    hendo
    gini lallana
    mane firmino phil

    we were tonking everyone and then mane and phil got injured

    right now we have

    emre
    gini lallana
    mane firmino salah

    as our front six and the same problem should injuries befall mane and salah

    but we have virgil

    i d say currently we are slightly weakened but more through disappointment than on field abilty

    the gap between van dijk and our other centre backs in terms of quality is easily equal to the gap between phil and lallana or oxlade

    i think provided virgil carries on like he did v everton i think it will be roughly the same in terms of overall strength having lost and not yet replaced phil


    if salah and mane stay fit we get top 4 comfortably.

    i think we are strong and that van dijks addition will half our set piece goalsconceeded tally whilst adding a few at the other end against stubborn defenses.
    we will struggle for a few weeks mainly through the media and commentators keep mentioning missing coutinho blah blah but ultimately i think we will emerge stronger if the two wide men stay fit.

    we re almost in the exact same situation as last year now albeit with a slightly stronger defensive unit. if mane and salah stay fit we make top four no problemo. if not we struggle and scrape and scrap and fight and prob miss out and finish fifth
    This is a key point, I reckon, and where Klopp will earn his money. The noise is going to be mental and keeping the ship steady will be a big job, especially considering our next match is City. Though, at the same time, it could be a blessing now that I think of it- it’s probably a good game to highlight the defensive strengths as opposed to what we might’ve lost at the other end. I’d say Klopp had one eye on that match by starting VVD vs Everton, so he’ll have the debut out of the way.

    The other aspect you mentioned about stubborn defenses, we’ve struggled against them with Coutinho anyway, so even though it’s bound to get attention if it happens, it won’t be as black and white as just missing him. And our scrappy wins against those very types of teams last two games, Burnley and Everton, were without him too.
    'Okey doke, we'll leave it there so'
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    Stronger than we were this time last year I think.

    VVD, the OX and Salah more than make up for the loss of Phil, I just hope we get another in to replace him positionally, I guess we get to see if the VVD money has been already spent or not now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrDilkington View Post
    Stronger than we were this time last year I think.

    VVD, the OX and Salah more than make up for the loss of Phil, I just hope we get another in to replace him positionally, I guess we get to see if the VVD money has been already spent or not now.
    Yeah, if klopp gets to invest the whole fee then we'll definitely be stronger assuming we buy the right players.

    The cynics will say we've already spent it on VVD and Keita.
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    I have thought about it a lot and also gathered many opinions, just how strong is Coutinho? Damn strong. Just how strong is Vvd? Damn strong. I do think overall however, that we probably needed vvd more than we needed Coutinho. We gave away 2-3 goal leads and it was frustrating to watch, Vvd looks so composed and commanding at the back if I were to choose to keep vvd or bring Coutinho back I would choose keep vvd everyday of the week. We are much weaker from set pieces and we don't have Coutinho's defence splitting passes anymore, but we do have players who can step in and do a decent job, mainly OX and Lallana. The key here is Salah who has been breathtaking this season, we also have Woodburn who I am sure we will see much more of now, I think our attack is probably about 20% weaker, but overall as a unit we are much stronger than before VVD arrived.
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  19. #19  
    fredthecamel is online now First team regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedHed2 View Post
    This is a key point, I reckon, and where Klopp will earn his money. The noise is going to be mental and keeping the ship steady will be a big job, especially considering our next match is City. Though, at the same time, it could be a blessing now that I think of it- it’s probably a good game to highlight the defensive strengths as opposed to what we might’ve lost at the other end. I’d say Klopp had one eye on that match by starting VVD vs Everton, so he’ll have the debut out of the way.

    The other aspect you mentioned about stubborn defenses, we’ve struggled against them with Coutinho anyway, so even though it’s bound to get attention if it happens, it won’t be as black and white as just missing him. And our scrappy wins against those very types of teams last two games, Burnley and Everton, were without him too.
    yes i think we may battle to more wins than draws and maybe a few less flashy 7-0 wins

    maybe more machine like industrial midfield with high pressing from both ox and lallana but both are still capable of threading through the front 3

    i think we will have an all round more balanced side but perhaps not so spectacular going forward as we were though mane and firmino and salah may go up another level yet, mane certainly has another gear to find, so does ox and definately lallana who is barely fit...


    last seasons best midfield of hendo gini lallana worked superbly with the front three , the only difference now is salah is in that front 3 instead of phil. there were no concerns about a lack of creativity before xmas last year with that exact midfield.

    we have a better centre back , better left back now also.....
    Last edited by fredthecamel; 8-1-18 at 12:58.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredthecamel View Post
    yes i think we may battle to more wins than draws and maybe a few less flashy 7-0 wins
    Which is exactly what we’ve lacked too, so hopefully you’re right. That would make us a stronger/better team.

    It really stood out against Everton how much we used VVD for offensive set pieces, mad how much tbh. Free kicks we’d ordinarily tap and go, we were bringing him up for basically every time.
    'Okey doke, we'll leave it there so'
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    Stronger.

    Keep watching.
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  22. #22  
    fredthecamel is online now First team regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedHed2 View Post
    Which is exactly what we’ve lacked too, so hopefully you’re right. That would make us a stronger/better team.

    It really stood out against Everton how much we used VVD for offensive set pieces, mad how much tbh. Free kicks we’d ordinarily tap and go, we were bringing him up for basically every time.
    hopefully vvd can keep doing that and encourage others to also. emre nodded one in recently , first time he ever headed it i think. gini has done it , firmino can head it]

    we should be more of a threat from set pieces now with vvd anyway

    and defensively aerial balls were a weakness, vvd should help a lot with that

    i still think we ll get caught in open play as our midfield and attack are very gungho but with emre gini lallana as a midfield it is a little more defensively secure than a midfield with coutinho in it so that also may have a positive effect on our defense

    i m quite positive about the rest of the season for us all in all
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedHed2 View Post
    This is a key point, I reckon, and where Klopp will earn his money. The noise is going to be mental and keeping the ship steady will be a big job, especially considering our next match is City. Though, at the same time, it could be a blessing now that I think of it- it’s probably a good game to highlight the defensive strengths as opposed to what we might’ve lost at the other end. I’d say Klopp had one eye on that match by starting VVD vs Everton, so he’ll have the debut out of the way.

    The other aspect you mentioned about stubborn defenses, we’ve struggled against them with Coutinho anyway, so even though it’s bound to get attention if it happens, it won’t be as black and white as just missing him. And our scrappy wins against those very types of teams last two games, Burnley and Everton, were without him too.
    Great post.

    Losing Phil was a blow, but Klopps job is to ensure that the blow is soft. He's already said we've taken it on the chin, absorbed it and now we move on. It's this sort of positive outlook we need. Fair enough we cannot go 'like for like' but what we can do is get a player to fill that role.

    Don't expect Klopp to do what Rodgers did and spend the money on half a dozen players. If you do that you end up with average. There is two types of signings, statement signings and essential signings. I expect Klopp to make both between now and the summer. Salah and Ox were essential signings, Van Dijk was a mixture of the two and Keita when he arrives is definitely a statement signing. There will definitely be more of these.
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    We have to be stronger. We have coped without Coutinho in plenty of games this season, however regardless of who we are playing we have always looked weak at the back.

    Sure losing a player like Coutinho is a loss, but when you have the likes of Lallana and Ox, behind our awesome front 3, we hardly have the weakest of front lines.
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    LordJamieOfCarragher is online now LFC Forums Moderator
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    Carry on this new username ****** and keep on derailing threads you'll all have 'Banned' as a user title underneath.
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    I'd say weaker. Much criticism is levelled at our defence, but take away the nine goals conceded in those two bad defeats and it isn't nearly as bad as is much reported.

    I'm sure we can cope without Coutinho, but think he brought more to our attack than VVD can as a single figure in our defence. Time will tell of course, but one stat I don't so much 'report' and others do is our home record of just 4 goals conceded in 11 games in the league. Even away from home it's only 12 in the 9 games we didn't lose (badly)
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordJamieOfCarragher View Post
    Carry on this new username ****** and keep on derailing threads you'll all have 'Banned' as a user title underneath.
    Perhaps they're having banned practice.............! (I'll get my coat!)
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarknessIsCalling View Post
    Perhaps they're having banned practice.............! (I'll get my coat!)


    You’re good at those!
    'Okey doke, we'll leave it there so'
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarknessIsCalling View Post
    I'd say weaker. Much criticism is levelled at our defence, but take away the nine goals conceded in those two bad defeats and it isn't nearly as bad as is much reported.

    I'm sure we can cope without Coutinho, but think he brought more to our attack than VVD can as a single figure in our defence. Time will tell of course, but one stat I don't so much 'report' and others do is our home record of just 4 goals conceded in 11 games in the league. Even away from home it's only 12 in the 9 games we didn't lose (badly)
    There’s also the things that VVD brings offensively that we didn’t have before. We never really look like scoring on corners or set pieces, and in one game, he scored from a corner, and missed a very good chance from a free, both headers. If we can deliver the ball into his area consistently, there’s only one guy who looks like he’ll be getting his head on it. We get a lot of corners too, and more often than not, we’ve looked like conceding from them. Embarrassing.
    'Okey doke, we'll leave it there so'
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    Stronger. The stats show we win 71% matches without Couthino, and 44% with him. Plus we are stronger at the back.
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