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Thread: Virgil Van Dijk

  1. #61  
    TheKnucklesOfAgger is online now Academy prospect
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe-El View Post
    Itís all opinions. Like Robbie Fowler was absolutely amazing, but Alan Shearer, Thierry Henry, Rudd Van Nistlerooy, Didier Drogba, Nando Torres (for a while) and Luis Suarez were another step up.

    Jamie Redknapp was a real pass master but he was never in the same bracket as Stevie Gerrard or Xabi Alonso.

    Hyypia was top draw but had no pace. Carragher was top draw but couldnít pass to save his life (and had little pace). It was these Ďbutsí thatís stopped them from being in that elusive bracket. I could be wrong tho.
    Do you remember Sami being done for pace very regularly or something? You donít need to be rapid when your mind is 2 steps ahead of everyone else.
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    I can only remember Sami being murdered once by Drogba, toward the end of his time with us - it stands out because it happened so rarely. His positioning was immaculate, he didnt do last gasp stuff because he didnt need to. Peerless amongst our centre backs in the last 30 years.
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  3. #63  
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheKnucklesOfAgger View Post
    Do you remember Sami being done for pace very regularly or something? You donít need to be rapid when your mind is 2 steps ahead of everyone else.
    I do remember him being outrun. I remember talking about it right here in this very forum. Same as Agger was always done in by pacey players... itís no crime to be honest. Doesnít mean I thought he was crap, I thought Hyypia was brilliant... just not world class
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  4. #64  
    Gazza74 is online now LFC Hall of Fame Resident
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe-El View Post
    Hyypia was top draw but had no pace..
    Neither did Terry, but you put him above Sami?

    Tony Adams wasn't great on the ball but you say he is above Carra.

    Great players will have flaws, it doesn't stop them being greats and Sami was most definitely up there with all the greats of the game.
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  5. #65  
    Gazza74 is online now LFC Hall of Fame Resident
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe-El View Post
    I do remember him being outrun. I remember talking about it right here in this very forum. Same as Agger was always done in by pacey players... it’s no crime to be honest. Doesn’t mean I thought he was crap, I thought Hyypia was brilliant... just not world class
    John Terry wasn't world class either then, just brilliant, if pace means you aren't.

    Big Sami, like with Terry, didn't need pace because they were world class defenders who read the game superbly so never needed to rely on pace, plus were superb in the air so hardly ever had to chase back anyway.

    Sami was world class, if he isn't then some of the others you named aren't either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gazza74 View Post
    Neither did Terry, but you put him above Sami?

    Tony Adams wasn't great on the ball but you say he is above Carra.

    Great players will have flaws, it doesn't stop them being greats and Sami was most definitely up there with all the greats of the game.
    Tony Adams and John Terry funnily enough were almost identical players. Sami was a great defender... to me he wasnít quite world class but thatís just my opinion, nothing more.
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  7. #67  
    Gazza74 is online now LFC Hall of Fame Resident
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe-El View Post
    Tony Adams and John Terry funnily enough were almost identical players. Sami was a great defender... to me he wasn’t quite world class but that’s just my opinion, nothing more.
    You'll be alone in that opinion to be honest, big Sami was about as world class a defender as you could get.

    And the main reason you state for him not being world class means Terry isn't either, and a fair few others in history who didn't have great pace either.
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  8. #68  
    MoMoMoMoMoMoMo is online now Academy prospect
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    Not sure why people think if you are a bit slow you cant be World Class. Toby Alderweireld has no pace but he is one of the best CB's around.

    Not many CB's are quick, if you are good you don't need to be quick in that position.
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  9. #69  
    TheKnucklesOfAgger is online now Academy prospect
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe-El View Post
    I do remember him being outrun. I remember talking about it right here in this very forum. Same as Agger was always done in by pacey players... it’s no crime to be honest. Doesn’t mean I thought he was crap, I thought Hyypia was brilliant... just not world class
    But are you saying his lack of pace was the only reason he wasn't world class, because you'll struggle to find any world class centre backs if that is your criteria. I get it's just an opinion but I don't think people are quite understanding your reasoning.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gazza74 View Post
    You'll be alone in that opinion to be honest, big Sami was about as world class a defender as you could get.

    And the main reason you state for him not being world class means Terry isn't either, and a fair few others in history who didn't have great pace either.
    Fair play. Its just an opinion... not a mission statement or anything. We're all still allowed to have options.
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  11. #71  
    Gazza74 is online now LFC Hall of Fame Resident
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe-El View Post
    Fair play. Its just an opinion... not a mission statement or anything. We're all still allowed to have options.
    It is just an opinion, it just doesn't make sense because you use lack of pace against Sami but then name others with lack of pace as true world class greats.

    Every one of those other players you named had flaws in their game, it didn't stop them being world class, just as it didn't stop Sami being so too.

    It's like world class strikers, some have skill and finishing ability, but no pace, some have those things but are quick too, some are just clinical finishers but not much else to their game, all are world class though as flaws in their game doesn't change this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheKnucklesOfAgger View Post
    But are you saying his lack of pace was the only reason he wasn't world class, because you'll struggle to find any world class centre backs if that is your criteria. I get it's just an opinion but I don't think people are quite understanding your reasoning.
    Regarding reasoning, I think you'll find I'm one of the more chapter and verse posters here. When I say Sami had no pace... he really had no pace, like none at all but he was a great defender, I've said that before and I'll say it again so you don't need to keep on preaching to the choir. The problem for Sami wasn't his lack of pace, it was that the EPL was getting faster. He played under Houllier a manager that loved counter-attacking tripe so we spent much of our time defending deep (even against lower league crap). Luckily most teams would play the bylines and cross... perfect for Hyypia to nod away... but then came the speed merchants. It didn't help that aside from perfecting the art of grimacing, his partner in crime Henchoz wasn't made of the same stuff. Our defence leaked goals when teams literally blitzed us for pace.

    I'll always have a soft spot for Sami, but I remember seeing Japp Stam, Sol Campbell and Marcel Desailly literally forming brick walls in front of goal. Not saying they were perfect either, but who is? I understand your point tho... its like comparing Suarez's deceptive pace to Djibril Cisse's, you can't but Suarez thought at 100mph, Cisse 1mph. Hyypia was a master of positioning but by then end he became a liability. Not because he got slower, he really didn't. The game just got faster.

    I remember when he came under a lot of fire and he came out with fighting talk, going on about his game not changing in 10 years... no pace blah blah blah. He was right. But the EPL changed around him. He couldn't live with the pace of the game today. The rest would still be great I suspect, well, maybe not Pallister or Adams.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gazza74 View Post
    It is just an opinion, it just doesn't make sense because you use lack of pace against Sami but then name others with lack of pace as true world class greats.

    Every one of those other players you named had flaws in their game, it didn't stop them being world class, just as it didn't stop Sami being so too.

    It's like world class strikers, some have skill and finishing ability, but no pace, some have those things but are quick too, some are just clinical finishers but not much else to their game, all are world class though as flaws in their game doesn't change this.
    Like I said, its an opinion... I hope you don't think you'll agree with everyones opinion here? You have a different opinion... cool. Move on
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  14. #74  
    Gazza74 is online now LFC Hall of Fame Resident
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe-El View Post
    Like I said, its an opinion... I hope you don't think you'll agree with everyones opinion here? You have a different opinion... cool. Move on
    No, hence why i challenge opinions i don't agree with for debate, otherwise this forum would be boring.

    Sami Hyypia was the epitomy of a world class defender, he didn't have great pace but neither was he slow, not at all.

    When you are world class you don't need pace anyway as your anticipation, reactions, heading, tackling, ability on the ball etc etc etc makes up for it and Sami had the lot.

    He'd be just as great now as he was back then, a 24 year old Sami would be perfect in todays game, of course a 34 year him struggled a bit near the end but that is just age, it happens.
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  15. #75  
    MoMoMoMoMoMoMo is online now Academy prospect
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe-El View Post
    Like I said, its an opinion... I hope you don't think you'll agree with everyones opinion here? You have a different opinion... cool. Move on
    No problem with what you are saying but your opinion is slightly flawed though as the current best CB in the PL, Alderweireld isn't very quick and I would say he is very slow.

    Its hard to tell what his pace is compared to Sami but judging by the game against us last season I think when Bobby started 15 yards behind Toby and still caught up and went by him by about another 5 yards chasing the ball I would say it would be pretty close race between Sami and Toby.

    Top CB's don't need pace, Bonucci, Godin, Hummels, Pique to name a few are not quick at all. Not saying they are true World Class defenders but they are rated up there, not sure the current crop of CB's in World football are that brilliant to be honest compared to the past best.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoMoMoMoMoMoMo View Post
    Not sure why people think if you are a bit slow you cant be World Class. Toby Alderweireld has no pace but he is one of the best CB's around.

    Not many CB's are quick, if you are good you don't need to be quick in that position.
    How good would a partnership of Toby and VVD be btw?...to think the Saints were a summer away from that being their first-choice CB P/ship!?

    Personally, I think Klopp is auditioning Lovren and Matip for the role of VVD's partner, the same way Karius is getting auditioned for the #1 jersey.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bauer-lfc View Post
    hyypia and carra were both great cbs
    at least hypia was
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emaxx2 View Post
    at least hypia was
    No they both were.

    Carra was the cornerstone behind two runs to a CL final.
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    Get toby aldeweireld in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gazza74 View Post
    No, hence why i challenge opinions i don't agree with for debate, otherwise this forum would be boring.

    Sami Hyypia was the epitomy of a world class defender, he didn't have great pace but neither was he slow, not at all.

    When you are world class you don't need pace anyway as your anticipation, reactions, heading, tackling, ability on the ball etc etc etc makes up for it and Sami had the lot.

    He'd be just as great now as he was back then, a 24 year old Sami would be perfect in todays game, of course a 34 year him struggled a bit near the end but that is just age, it happens.
    Ok cool, carry on fighting the good fight... after all its now a crime for someone here to take off their rose tinted glasses and admit that although a top draw defender, Sami Hyypia had Per Mertesacker pace. Imagine Mane and Salah against Mertesacker. That german can read the game all he wants... ball in the air and our two speed demons might as well just give it up. If its a foot race I know who I wouldn't be betting the mortgage on.

    Of course in todays game you can still succeed with no pace, Charlie Adams makes a sloth look speedy, Andy Carroll's sprint looks a bit 'hop-skip-and-jump', Garath Barry was left for dead every year for a decade and still got games, Per Mertesacker is Arsenal captain. All still play in the Premiership.

    Saying all that, Hyypia was a great defender, absolutely great. 5 yards more pace would have made him world class. To some here he was world class regardless.
    Last edited by Joe-El; 13-2-18 at 08:22.
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    That smirk tho
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    Virgil is proving a very good piece of business allready. If he can avoid big and carreercribling injuries he will be a big boost in our fight for trophies. Winning CL in his first season would be the best thing that could happen, and even though theres a long road for that ill be hoping and dreaming all the way. Virgil helps me keep hold of that dream.
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  23. #83  
    spider-neil is online now Academy prospect
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bauer-LFC View Post
    No they both were.

    Carra was the cornerstone behind two runs to a CL final.
    (IMHO) Carra for 'great' for a couple of seasons and 'good' for the rest. Sami was great for his entire time here. To be honest, I really don't think Carra and Sami should be mentioned in the same breath.
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  24. #84  
    Gazza74 is online now LFC Hall of Fame Resident
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe-El View Post
    Saying all that, Hyypia was a great defender, absolutely great. 5 yards more pace would have made him world class. To some here he was world class regardless.
    So, pace is the only reason you decide Sami wasn't world class?

    How come you mentioned John Terry as world class then, as his big flaw was lack of pace, well known for it too, why is he world class to you and Sami not when they both had the same issue?
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    Van Dijk has everything. We just have to hope he doesn't catch something from the rest.

    I'd really like to see Gomez given a run alongside him before the end of the season. Could save us some money in the summer.
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  26. #86  
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    Quote Originally Posted by wavdeep View Post
    Van Dijk has everything. We just have to hope he doesn't catch something from the rest.

    I'd really like to see Gomez given a run alongside him before the end of the season. Could save us some money in the summer.
    I think Gomez is too young to be relying on him starting alongside VVD next season.
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    Alan Hansen had no pace but he did alright.
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  28. #88  
    Gazza74 is online now LFC Hall of Fame Resident
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thespian View Post
    Alan Hansen had no pace but he did alright.
    I know, Jockie was totally world class too and big Sami was the virtual replica of him in everything he did, from reading the game, being great in the air, great tackler and bringing the vall out from the back.

    I just don't see why a player is determined a world class great based on pace or not, they are either that level or not regardless of being quick or not as it's their overall game that makes it so.

    Big Sami was world class for a decade, he was awesome, he wasn't exactly slow, same as Jockie, but not being sprinter quick didn't determine either as world class or not, they were generally, having pace aswell would have just made it unfair on strikers who got nothing against them anyway..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gazza74 View Post
    So, pace is the only reason you decide Sami wasn't world class?

    How come you mentioned John Terry as world class then, as his big flaw was lack of pace, well known for it too, why is he world class to you and Sami not when they both had the same issue?
    John Terry had more pace than Carragher. Carragher jogged faster than Hyypia ran. In fact the only time Hyypia actually sprinted was during one of his many goal celebrations.

    Hyypia was a briliant defender, a bit more pace and... broken record time. If a Beetle could do 0-60 in 4 seconds, itíd be a Porsche
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe-El View Post
    John Terry had more pace than Carragher. Carragher jogged faster than Hyypia ran. In fact the only time Hyypia actually sprinted was during one of his many goal celebrations.

    Hyypia was a briliant defender, a bit more pace and... broken record time. If a Beetle could do 0-60 in 4 seconds, it’d be a Porsche
    You what???

    Surely If a Beetle did 0-60 in 4 seconds it would just be a quicker Beetle?
    Last edited by Thespian; 13-2-18 at 12:57.
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