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Thread: Libero or desequilibrante?

  1. #91  
    dreams-come-true is online now First team regular
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    Amazing. And I was put off all that long time ago because it was getting really technical. Cant handle the terminology and I still cant. Haven't read all the contributions and promise I will go back and read them soon.

    Just wanted to make an observation about Sunday's game .....
    - OK. We had Masch and Lucas playing the DM/CM role brilliantly.
    - Kuyt started out behind Torres initially and then switched with Benayoun who then slotted in behind the striker. Both running their socks off from beginning to the end and combined very well..... as well as combining with Lucas who went forwards very often to support the attacks.
    HOWEVER, it seemed to me that we had another "joker" in the pack. Aurelio. He not just covered the left hand side with Insua, he was also over on the right occasionally, and provided that extra bit of confusion .... because he was not playing just an out and out leftwing position. He was also helping out in defensive duties when Masch and Lucas needed it.... to protect the back 4.
    They all did their jobs with concentration and with a dedication which you could only admire. From the beginning to the very end.
    However, I will note here that I think this type of play and especially commitment ..... which is probably what we all want to see ...... can not be sustained. It costs a lot of energy. It will also tire out most mortals over a period of time. So. I expect to see us play a more "containment" like football which is not so energy intensive .... in the game(s) immediately after such a massively energy intensive game like the one on Sunday.
    I expect to see another team being picked for the Arsenal game .... to be able to give the likes of Masch (red card anyway), Lucas, Benayoun, and Kuyt .... a bit of a rest.
    I think the Fulham game will be pivotal. It might require a different tactic to that against the Mancs. May be my hunch is just a load of cobblers.
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  2. #92  
    FamousInternationale is offline Directors Box
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    Wow. They don't make threads like these any more.
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  3. #93  
    tweepie is online now LFC Forums Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by FamousInternationale View Post
    Wow. They don't make threads like these any more.
    Which is why we put them into this forum to preserve them.
    YNWA
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  4. #94  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Target-Man View Post
    This is a great debate, and I am very sad that I have missed it in its early stages.

    I think I have to comment a bit on the libero thing, though. Snipes, it seems like you are saying that a libero system would have one stopper and one libero, but if you look at the teams who used this system in the '70s, '80s and '90s you would see that they usually had two CBs just like a regular back four, and a libero in addition to that. Germany in 1990 had Kohler and Buchwald as the stoppers with Augenthaler as the libero and Berthold and Brehme as the wing backs.

    The two CBs would man mark, and while on the defensive the libero would cover the gaps left by having wing backs in advanced positions and/or created by forwards dragging a man marker wide. The difference between a libero and sweeper lies more in the interpretation than in the positioning. A "sweeper" is thought of mostly in defensive terms as "sweeping up" the "garbage" that is not picked by the stoppers. A libero, being a "free man" is thought to be free to join midfield and attack when he chooses to, often carrying the ball himself. Coming from a defensive position through a midfield of players already marking each other, he becomes an attacking threat by creating local overload situations and by exploiting the seams in the defensive positioning thereby gaining ground unmarked. If played to perfection, it could often lead to a libero getting as far as into the penalty box before someone would pick him up.

    Actually, I think that when we have the ball, we position ourselves in a way not too dissimilar to if we actually had three centre backs. Alonso or Mascherano often play in a very withdrawn central role with Carragher and Skrtel moving wider than centre backs normally would in a flat back four, and with Arbeloa and Aurelio or Dossena essentially playing like wing backs. That means that we often have three players spread across the pitch at the back with a DM slightly more advanced than the to CBs.

    The difference against Portsmouth again seemed to have more to do with the interpretation of the roles than with positioning. With a DM occupying the central defensive position slightly ahead of the CBs, he is the one who moves forward first. With Carragher as a CB occupying the central position against Portsmouth, he would stay behind while Agger and Skrtel were allowed to move wider and further forward.

    I don't know if you agree, but that's what I see happening quite often.

    I don't recall the classic libero formations emphasizing closing down the opposition early. Instead, they emphasized flexibility of formation and freedom of movement for certain key creative players, as well as quick counterattacks with the libero joining the attack and exploiting the seams of the opposition formation.

    When AC Milan started using a flat back four, they also started applying much higher pressure and moving the defensive line much higher than Italian teams normally would at the time.
    I’d love to revive this thread somewhat, as for me this is what proper footie chat is all about.

    I also think there is some mileage in re-igniting it now, given that a lot of the discussion in this thread revolved around Rafa’s time at the club, whereas now we are in the Rogers era. Rogers clearly has a footballing philosophy in mind, so it would be no bad thing to re-examine the points that have come up in this post, and apply them in the context of what is happening at the moment at the club.

    Ive started by quoting this post from Target Man, as it really brilliantly describes my understanding of the role of the libero, at least in the way the Germans utilised the role, with Beckenbauer and Matthäus as the men who defined the role. The likes of Baresi played the role in the Italian tradition as part of the Catenaccio style of play, where you had a back 3 who man marked the opposition forwards, and the libero occupying a sweeper role just in front of the goalkeeper, sweeping up loose balls, double marking a key striker, and being the starting point for launching counter attacks. The best Ive witnessed in my relatively short period as a football fan was the Milan/Italy defence of Maldini, Baresi, Costacurta and Tassotti, although the Italians had been playing this style long before those 4. Id also say the reliance on this tactic by Italian teams became the reason behind Italy producing so many top class defenders for many years.

    One point I would argue is that Catenaccio and use of the libero wasn’t so much abandoned by Arrigo Sacchi as completely undone by the rise of Total Football. The man marking system utilised by Cantaccio was completely undone by the Dutch team that included Cruyff at the peak of his powers. The positional interchange that was the hallmark of Total Football – the principle of which was that any player could play in any position on the field – rendered the man-marking system almost obsolete. The Catenaccio style has been reverted to occasionally since then, and sometimes quite successfully; its not often that teams implement a style like Total Football so brilliantly these days. But by and large, most of European football adopts the zonal marking system.

    Funnily enough, where Target Man in his post above saw a resemblance in LFCs play under Rafa to the libero style, I see us now moving gradually to a something like tika-taka under Rodgers. I’ll show you what I mean over a couple of posts, which will start by having a look at the old Hungary team of the 1950s. Going back right to the roots!! It will all come to bear…

    Another point, which I don’t know whether anyone will agree with… is that during various stages in Football, some teams or nations have been credited with creating or become the definive exponents of a particular style of football, for example, Ajax/ the Dutch with Total Football, Milan / the Italians with Catenaccio, Barcelona / The Spanish with Tika-Taka. Yes the Brits have never really bee credited with the development of any particular style. I find it somewhat odd, given the success in Europe particularly, and domination during the 80s, that our success never appears to be credited with a particularly great system of football. Pass and Move is often mentioned, but what Ive read on football tactics suggests that is more an attacking tactic rather than a system or style of play. Wondered if anyone had any thoughts on it.
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  5. #95  
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    Cornetto.
    I'm with idiot ↓
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  6. #96  
    Jannno is online now LFC Forums Moderator
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    Bump
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  7. #97  
    Liverdinner is online now Posts With His Faace
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    Damn good thread, this.
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  8. #98  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liverdinner View Post
    Damn good thread, this.
    Damn right. Enjoyable, eloquent, educational and stuffed with high quality footy nutrients.
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  9. #99  
    Acumen is online now First team regular
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    I was always intrigued to see whether BR would have used Can in the Libero role. He often used Can as the primary ball playing CB and in some occasions let him drift forward to start attacks. I can't see us playing that since we lack the personnel but if we could capture a player like Reidewald from Ajax, maybe we could.
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